Popular in Economics

Economics

Gender and Economics

University of California Santa Barbara Shelly Lundberg

Banks and Policy Organisations

Greening the financial sector

European Investment Bank Matteo Ferrazzi

Economic History

Gravity with Gravitas: A Solution to the Border Puzzle

Boston College James E. Anderson

Economic Inequalities

Visions of Inequality

City University of New York Branko Milanovic

Economics

School Finance Equalization Increases Intergenerational Mobility

Yale University Barbara Biasi

Economics

Olivier Blanchard on U.S. Pandemic-Era Inflation

Peterson Institute for International Economics Olivier Blanchard

Many Possible Worlds: An Interdisciplinary History of the World Economy Since 1800

View more insights in Social Sciences - Economics - Economic History

View more figures from Australian National University

View the page of Cameron Gordon

Read the Study

· Tools Cite Embed

Cameron Gordon provides a crosscutting interdisciplinary account of how the disintegrated, global subsistence economy circa 1800 has transformed into a global complex delivering unprecedented levels of material production and consumption.

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 16, 2024

Log-in or Sign-up to Faculti
Currently viewing this subject insight as a guest. You have insight(s) remaining for this month.

Workspace

Faculti AI is thinking...

< >

Summary
Related Studies
Faculti AI
Key Points
Key Quotes
Translate
Transcript

Export as PDF

This video is a detailed discussion on the evolution of economic thought, particularly since the Industrial Revolution, while critiquing the narrow lens through which economic changes have often been perceived. It highlights how traditional economic analysis has focused primarily on production, distribution, and consumption, often overlooking the sociopolitical and psychological dimensions that also drive economic change. The speaker argues for an interdisciplinary approach that includes sociology, history, and political science to fully grasp the complexities and effects of economic transformations.

Key points include:

1. **Historical Context**: The speaker emphasizes how standard economic frameworks have failed to account for the profound social and political changes accompanying economic developments since the 18th century.

2. **Limitations of Traditional Economics**: Economics has often been viewed too narrowly, concentrating on production technologies and market efficiencies while neglecting deeper social implications.

3. **Interdisciplinarity**: The speaker advocates for a more integrated approach to studying economics that includes perspectives from various disciplines to address limitations and the impact on individuals and society.

4. **Neoliberalism vs. Classical Liberalism**: A distinction is made between neoliberalism, which the speaker argues is a pro-business ideology that often disregards working-class interests, and classical liberalism, which offered a framework for understanding market dynamics alongside the role of government.

5. **Meritocracy Critique**: This video critiques the idea of meritocracy as an illusory concept that does not genuinely allow for equal opportunity, leading to stability and unrest.

6. **Future Considerations**: The discussion concludes with a call to consider new limits and challenges facing modern economies, including resource constraints, the role of technology, and the importance of meaning and psychology in social cohesion.

Overall, the speaker urges a reevaluation of economic systems to encompass broader societal issues, advocating for ongoing interdisciplinary research to understand and address the evolving landscape of economic thought and practice.

Language:

Export as PDF

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

00:00.335 --> 00:01.475
The standard way

00:01.475 --> 00:03.835
that you look at economic change since 1800.

00:03.935 --> 00:05.155
So we're talking about really, or

00:05.435 --> 00:07.035
1750, whatever you want to talk about it.

00:07.035 --> 00:08.315
You know, the industrial revolution

00:08.575 --> 00:09.875
and everything that's followed from that.

00:10.655 --> 00:12.315
The standard way of, of looking at

00:12.315 --> 00:15.435
that is looking at it from a very narrow economic frame.

00:15.435 --> 00:17.275
And what I mean by that is that, you know,

00:17.275 --> 00:20.675
when you think about an economy, you've got production then

00:20.675 --> 00:24.995
that out of that flows, distribution, consumption, and,

00:25.535 --> 00:27.875
and then, you know, that tends to be what you focus on.

00:27.875 --> 00:29.955
And you focused a lot with the, in, with the,

00:30.015 --> 00:31.075
the industrial revolution.

00:31.085 --> 00:34.515
There was a lot of, a dramatic increase in productivity

00:35.615 --> 00:38.755
and ara technological, advance

00:39.615 --> 00:44.275
and, a, dramatic increase in sophistication

00:44.535 --> 00:46.395
and technical difficulty.

00:47.375 --> 00:49.795
And, so I know there's another question about the rise

00:49.795 --> 00:52.235
of economics as a field, so this kind of relates to that.

00:52.235 --> 00:55.475
But, so what's tended to happen is,

00:55.475 --> 00:57.555
or what has happened, I shouldn't say tenders to happened,

00:57.555 --> 01:00.595
is that, the economic history has been looked at in

01:00.595 --> 01:01.795
terms of, all right, well, what's happened?

01:01.795 --> 01:04.115
We had, how did production get so productive?

01:04.895 --> 01:06.995
Um, what was the technology behind that?

01:07.385 --> 01:10.315
What were the causes and effects in terms of technology

01:10.375 --> 01:11.355
and in terms of other things that

01:11.355 --> 01:12.475
were affecting the technology?

01:13.295 --> 01:16.795
Um, and then how did that then in turn increase consumer,

01:16.895 --> 01:18.995
you know, consumption, distribution?

01:19.575 --> 01:21.275
Um, and so people look at that

01:21.735 --> 01:23.795
and there's a very standard way of looking at these things.

01:23.905 --> 01:26.195
It's a very sophisticated and sub literature.

01:26.495 --> 01:28.875
So I, I'm not saying that there's a problem with it,

01:29.775 --> 01:34.635
but, what, what I was dissatisfied with,

01:34.945 --> 01:37.435
because I, I, I read a lot about economic history.

01:37.515 --> 01:40.955
I study it. Um, I'm also taught in a number of disciplines,

01:41.175 --> 01:45.435
and I was a history major as an undergraduate as well.

01:45.495 --> 01:46.955
And so thought about being an historian.

01:47.015 --> 01:48.555
And I've, I've worked in government and,

01:48.555 --> 01:49.835
and worked in various, you know,

01:49.835 --> 01:50.955
I have other taught disciplines.

01:50.955 --> 01:53.675
So I have, I have kind of a, a varied background

01:53.675 --> 01:54.995
besides economics and, and sort of

01:54.995 --> 01:57.475
what was dissatisfying about the narrow approach is that,

01:58.215 --> 02:02.805
basically economics is not just about,

02:03.145 --> 02:05.645
or the, the changes in the economy aren't just about

02:05.645 --> 02:07.205
changes in production technology.

02:07.555 --> 02:10.725
They're not just about changes in what people consume

02:10.785 --> 02:12.845
or how much they have available to consume,

02:12.945 --> 02:15.845
or mass marketing kinds of mechanisms, not just about that.

02:16.585 --> 02:17.965
Uh, the causes

02:17.965 --> 02:22.165
and effects have been both, at a profound, you know,

02:22.235 --> 02:25.205
involvement, profound social changes,

02:25.265 --> 02:27.965
and they've had profound social, political,

02:28.245 --> 02:32.205
sociological psychological impacts as well.

02:32.705 --> 02:34.245
So, I mean, there's a lot I could say about this,

02:34.245 --> 02:36.165
but just to give an example, for example,

02:36.555 --> 02:39.845
even in the case of English industrialization, you know,

02:39.875 --> 02:42.325
like what caused that, you know, so economists will look at

02:42.325 --> 02:45.445
that and they'll sort of say, well, you know,

02:45.445 --> 02:46.805
technological advance

02:46.825 --> 02:48.325
and what caused the technological advance?

02:48.365 --> 02:49.445
There were changes in incentives.

02:49.545 --> 02:51.245
You know, people had, you know, you know,

02:51.245 --> 02:53.085
and sometimes there's cultural things that happen there,

02:53.085 --> 02:55.805
you know, English, it was an English tradition of, you know,

02:55.945 --> 02:58.045
practical innovation.

02:58.745 --> 03:01.845
And that led to this invention that didn't happen

03:01.985 --> 03:04.005
as much in France, which has rationalist

03:04.005 --> 03:05.685
theoretical kind of innovation.

03:05.825 --> 03:07.805
So that's, you know, so economists look at all these

03:07.805 --> 03:09.805
factors, but they're still looking at it from the point

03:09.805 --> 03:13.085
of view of the, of production and changes in production.

03:13.275 --> 03:14.525
Whereas, you know, if you look at

03:15.275 --> 03:17.385
what happened even in England was that, well, they were,

03:17.505 --> 03:20.625
you know, and I'm not, I'm not, we, I didn't point this out,

03:20.625 --> 03:22.225
others have noted this, but you,

03:22.225 --> 03:24.225
with dramatic changes leading up

03:24.225 --> 03:28.585
to the industrial revolution in politics, in, sort

03:28.585 --> 03:30.825
of the rise of parliamentary systems,

03:31.005 --> 03:33.345
but which were driven by the rise of commercial interests,

03:33.345 --> 03:35.025
which displaced older interests.

03:35.045 --> 03:36.625
And then there were, you know,

03:36.625 --> 03:39.585
things like the enclosure acts, that sort

03:39.585 --> 03:42.785
of drove people out of, off the lad, you know,

03:42.785 --> 03:44.265
privatized, commons.

03:44.765 --> 03:48.265
Um, and, you know, and sort of created the conditions

03:48.325 --> 03:51.345
and in some ways directly created markets, you know,

03:51.345 --> 03:55.945
and the conditions that set up, you know, sort

03:55.945 --> 03:57.305
of the establishment of factories,

03:57.305 --> 03:58.825
the putting out system, and then factories.

03:58.825 --> 03:59.825
And so, you know, I mean, again, I,

04:00.335 --> 04:02.465
Carl Palani has famously written about this,

04:02.465 --> 04:03.465
and he's not the only one.

04:03.965 --> 04:06.545
Um, so you had this thing where, well, we'll sort of, well,

04:07.405 --> 04:08.825
how much that's, a lot of that isn't really

04:08.825 --> 04:10.385
that economic in a sense.

04:10.885 --> 04:13.385
Um, and, so it's kind of like, well,

04:13.405 --> 04:15.705
you really need kind of other disciplines like sociology,

04:15.805 --> 04:17.825
for example, to really study that.

04:18.245 --> 04:20.225
And to add to that and to really get into that.

04:20.225 --> 04:22.385
And then on the effects side, I mean, I'm not, I won't go on

04:22.385 --> 04:23.745
and on about this, but, you know,

04:23.745 --> 04:26.825
once you had industrialization, then you had urbanization,

04:26.965 --> 04:31.545
you had rural depopulation, you had, you know,

04:31.785 --> 04:33.465
dramatic changes in, in social structure

04:33.465 --> 04:35.025
and increases in, in movement.

04:35.045 --> 04:36.825
You had densification of activities,

04:36.825 --> 04:39.385
things like ref factories became very large

04:39.445 --> 04:42.745
and concentrated, and that created sort of new communities

04:43.015 --> 04:45.145
that, you know, really radically changed,

04:45.145 --> 04:47.305
social structures and changed the way,

04:47.305 --> 04:48.545
people experience daily life.

04:48.845 --> 04:51.025
Um, again, economists have written about this.

04:51.185 --> 04:54.185
I, I don't wanna say that, this hasn't been a, a part

04:54.185 --> 04:56.425
of economic history or economic theory.

04:56.425 --> 04:58.465
There's been a lot of sophisticated writing about it,

04:58.845 --> 05:00.785
but the tendency then is to still go back

05:00.785 --> 05:02.585
to really the basic notion that, well,

05:02.585 --> 05:04.585
let's look at it from, from a production focus,

05:05.245 --> 05:09.145
and then also this benchmark of the market

05:09.245 --> 05:12.425
and market exchange as being sort of an optimal, right?

05:12.445 --> 05:14.225
So that's another thing in the background too.

05:14.285 --> 05:16.865
So what's the optimal, basically exchange organized on

05:16.865 --> 05:19.945
markets, that's an optimal state, it maximizes productivity,

05:20.365 --> 05:23.385
and then let's look at all these variety of factors that led

05:23.385 --> 05:26.385
to that, as opposed to saying, well, it's too narrow,

05:26.525 --> 05:29.385
you know, that's already defining the economy in a very

05:29.385 --> 05:30.505
narrow way and defining cause

05:30.505 --> 05:31.505
and effect in a very narrow way.

05:31.505 --> 05:33.585
So anyway, look, I, I could go on and on about this,

05:33.645 --> 05:36.305
but, but that's sort of really what motivated me

05:36.305 --> 05:38.105
to take an interdisciplinary approach

05:38.105 --> 05:41.145
besides my own personal interests and personal donations.

05:41.165 --> 05:43.985
But to say, okay, well, let's, you know, not just to sort

05:43.985 --> 05:45.225
of have an economics focus

05:45.295 --> 05:48.385
with some other disciplines pulled in, which you see a lot,

05:48.485 --> 05:50.425
or not take an economics focus,

05:50.715 --> 05:53.665
which I call sometimes the Christmas tree kind of model,

05:53.665 --> 05:55.905
where you have sort of, what's a nice economic Christmas

05:55.905 --> 05:58.925
tree, and let's put some ball about the slave trade

05:58.945 --> 06:00.925
or about, you know, like that really decorates things.

06:00.925 --> 06:03.205
But fundamentally, I'm talking about an economic process

06:03.385 --> 06:04.645
of economic optimization.

06:05.105 --> 06:08.325
You know, I said, okay, let's actually have coequal,

06:09.045 --> 06:10.765
approaches of different disciplines as opposed

06:10.765 --> 06:12.285
to just having economics

06:12.285 --> 06:14.765
and the focus, even though the story is

06:14.765 --> 06:16.005
about economic change.

06:16.065 --> 06:19.125
So I, I am focusing specifically on economic change, not,

06:20.105 --> 06:22.725
not the primary focus being, for example, social change.

06:22.725 --> 06:24.005
Even though I, I look at that

06:24.005 --> 06:25.565
or political change, those things all come out.

06:25.565 --> 06:27.205
But again, there is a, there is a focus there,

06:27.225 --> 06:30.325
but really the idea is to have sort of, you know, co-equal,

06:30.545 --> 06:33.765
cooperative complementary approach

06:33.765 --> 06:36.005
to interdisciplinary transdisciplinary,

06:36.025 --> 06:38.045
if you wanna call it, sort of approaches.

06:38.045 --> 06:40.045
So that's what motivated me,

06:40.045 --> 06:42.765
and that's what I tried to do, in this study.

06:43.105 --> 06:44.445
You know, when you start getting into the area

06:44.625 --> 06:47.765
of European colonialism, extensive European colonialism,

06:47.765 --> 06:50.605
which by which I really mean really moving out into regions,

06:50.675 --> 06:55.485
well beyond, sort of traditional, sort of spheres

06:55.485 --> 06:56.925
of influences, spheres of interest.

06:57.045 --> 06:59.085
I mean, everyone, colonialism is very old, of course.

06:59.085 --> 07:00.285
It goes back to the ancient world.

07:00.795 --> 07:02.085
Many countries have practiced it.

07:02.085 --> 07:03.405
China have practiced it, for example,

07:03.435 --> 07:04.605
that had its own empire.

07:04.605 --> 07:07.085
But generally, you know, that was generally sort of,

07:07.195 --> 07:10.005
usually in this particular area of the world now,

07:10.115 --> 07:12.325
when you have sort of European colonialism,

07:12.325 --> 07:16.205
you have this sort of international sort of focus in areas

07:16.235 --> 07:18.285
that are, you know, just the age of discovery,

07:18.425 --> 07:20.605
the misnamed age of discovery, since we were,

07:20.695 --> 07:22.045
since these things, the people

07:22.045 --> 07:23.605
who lived there didn't need to be discovered.

07:23.605 --> 07:25.005
But from a European perspective,

07:25.025 --> 07:27.285
we were discovering, you know, new regions.

07:27.865 --> 07:29.965
Um, but, so basically this is

07:29.965 --> 07:31.965
what started in the 14 hundreds and 15 hundreds,

07:31.965 --> 07:34.765
and economics as a discipline begins to be born.

07:34.795 --> 07:39.485
Then when these kind of trading companies were set up,

07:39.625 --> 07:40.885
by the Europeans,

07:41.105 --> 07:45.335
and, the, there was, people were sort of,

07:45.335 --> 07:47.815
the traditional idea was, well, let's just take over a lot

07:47.815 --> 07:51.775
of, territory, trade, you know,

07:51.775 --> 07:55.055
get a monopoly in, in precious metals and things like that.

07:55.155 --> 07:57.055
And then build big crate surpluses

07:57.055 --> 07:59.455
and build big, reserves of,

07:59.635 --> 08:00.895
you know, gold and silver.

08:01.675 --> 08:04.295
Um, and what was happening even at that time is

08:04.295 --> 08:05.895
that you already have this sort of globalized,

08:06.155 --> 08:09.095
but state centered, sort of trading system.

08:09.355 --> 08:13.135
But you had people within the trading companies sort

08:13.135 --> 08:14.455
of looking at their own accounts

08:14.475 --> 08:16.295
and beginning to, this is the sort of the birth

08:16.295 --> 08:17.455
of sort of modern economics.

08:17.455 --> 08:19.255
And beginning to say, well, wait a second, actually,

08:19.255 --> 08:23.175
we don't always maximize our profits, our trading profits,

08:23.275 --> 08:25.695
by accumulating trade surpluses.

08:25.775 --> 08:28.055
Sometimes running deficits is okay, you know,

08:28.235 --> 08:30.855
and accumulation of, of gold

08:30.855 --> 08:32.895
and silver is not necessarily an ideal thing either.

08:33.395 --> 08:36.375
So you began to get already, out of these kind

08:36.375 --> 08:38.095
of realities, and this is how I would argue,

08:38.095 --> 08:39.255
it was kind of a theory.

08:39.275 --> 08:41.735
People began to look at, I fixed ideas

08:41.755 --> 08:42.975
and then how things are really working,

08:43.715 --> 08:45.655
but always thinking, excuse me,

08:45.655 --> 08:47.095
about national strategic advantage.

08:48.775 --> 08:50.275
So you begin to get a formalization,

08:50.275 --> 08:51.355
people looking at evidence.

08:51.745 --> 08:53.795
This is also an, an era of the enlightenment

08:53.855 --> 08:55.205
and the scientific revolution.

08:55.225 --> 08:56.325
So this fits in with that.

08:56.945 --> 08:59.005
But the classical economics in particular,

08:59.005 --> 09:00.765
these are just sort of the anthes, of course, you know,

09:00.925 --> 09:01.965
everyone knows about Adam Smith.

09:02.385 --> 09:05.005
Um, and, you know, he's very much a creature

09:05.005 --> 09:06.085
of the Scottish Enlightenment.

09:06.085 --> 09:07.165
And of course, Scotland at

09:07.165 --> 09:08.925
that time was actually in some ways, in many ways,

09:08.925 --> 09:12.485
more prosperous and advanced than, the rest of, of,

09:12.585 --> 09:15.205
you know, of the, the other, you know, parts of the,

09:15.205 --> 09:17.165
of the British, kingdom.

09:18.145 --> 09:21.205
Um, I'm part Scottish, so I guess partly I, I say that out

09:21.205 --> 09:22.605
of, national pride.

09:23.145 --> 09:24.925
Um, and so, but,

09:25.185 --> 09:26.445
but M Smith is basically,

09:27.585 --> 09:29.395
he's seeing all these changes going on,

09:29.535 --> 09:31.595
but from a very particular perspective, sort

09:31.595 --> 09:33.955
of the perspective of sort of an incumbent really, you know,

09:33.955 --> 09:35.675
sort of, he's not a business person,

09:36.655 --> 09:39.035
but he is sort of, sort of seeing,

09:39.035 --> 09:40.275
developments through their eyes.

09:40.695 --> 09:43.315
Um, and Smith is a very complicated figure, you know,

09:43.315 --> 09:46.555
he is been very, very, sort of simplified, right?

09:46.555 --> 09:47.675
People think of him as this last,

09:47.755 --> 09:48.835
I fair, that's how he's presented.

09:48.835 --> 09:50.835
That's not what he is. Of course, if you really read him,

09:50.835 --> 09:53.395
he's actually quite, subtle and,

09:53.575 --> 09:56.355
and not, not generally saying, well, business is good.

09:56.385 --> 09:57.755
He's often very skeptical,

09:58.065 --> 09:59.795
very scathing about business practices.

10:00.255 --> 10:02.395
But, you know, he has this,

10:02.815 --> 10:05.995
but he's the first kind of systematizer of, of modern

10:06.635 --> 10:09.955
economics as it was at that time, looking at, well,

10:09.955 --> 10:12.075
looking at the factory, the rise of the putting out system,

10:12.075 --> 10:14.355
the rise of factories, you know, these sort of,

10:14.455 --> 10:15.835
the division of labor, right?

10:15.835 --> 10:18.115
One of his famous, phrases where he says, well,

10:18.115 --> 10:19.635
how are people getting more productive?

10:19.695 --> 10:21.235
Not just concentrating production,

10:21.235 --> 10:23.635
but they're splitting up jobs that artisans used

10:23.635 --> 10:25.635
to do from beginning to end.

10:25.775 --> 10:27.275
And now he's saying, what's, you know,

10:27.275 --> 10:30.275
like the famous pin factory example, how do you make a pin?

10:30.275 --> 10:32.635
You know, you don't have just one person making one

10:32.655 --> 10:33.755
pin and another than another.

10:33.815 --> 10:35.795
You just have some people making the head another,

10:35.795 --> 10:37.955
making the shaft another, putting it together,

10:38.375 --> 10:39.715
and that increases productivity.

10:39.715 --> 10:40.875
So he is analyzing these things.

10:41.535 --> 10:44.395
Um, and of course, his famous phrase is the invisible hand,

10:45.915 --> 10:47.625
which has been misinterpreted to say

10:47.625 --> 10:48.825
that the market is always right.

10:49.325 --> 10:51.425
Uh, but he was saying that, well, actually,

10:51.805 --> 10:54.105
we don't need government direction

10:55.005 --> 10:56.185
to have a productive economy.

10:56.365 --> 10:57.665
And that's what he was seeing,

10:57.735 --> 10:59.785
even though he was ignoring a lot

10:59.785 --> 11:02.425
of the government direction that was already there, such

11:02.425 --> 11:03.585
as the putting, such

11:03.585 --> 11:04.945
as enclosure movements, for example.

11:05.245 --> 11:07.265
You know, such as, you know,

11:07.265 --> 11:09.865
even even the imperial trading companies, which by the way,

11:10.675 --> 11:14.145
Trump, Trump, excuse me, pardon me, that, Smith was,

11:14.365 --> 11:15.585
was, anti empire.

11:16.165 --> 11:17.145
You know, I, I'm just reading

11:17.145 --> 11:18.385
something about Trump, that's why he gave it there.

11:18.605 --> 11:20.745
Uh, he was, he was, kind of anti, he,

11:20.765 --> 11:22.265
he actually was against Empire

11:22.265 --> 11:23.785
because he thought it was too costly.

11:24.205 --> 11:26.265
So in that sense, he was very consistent with his principles

11:26.265 --> 11:28.225
of just let's, well just sort of, you know, kind of,

11:28.605 --> 11:30.145
you don't need centralized

11:30.145 --> 11:31.625
institutions to have productivity.

11:31.685 --> 11:34.385
So, but basically, you know, he

11:34.385 --> 11:36.665
and other classical economists would follow, follow him.

11:36.665 --> 11:38.385
Were really just like the Merkin, the people

11:38.385 --> 11:39.505
who looking at mercantilism

11:39.505 --> 11:41.985
before were just trying to, looking at dramatic changes

11:42.525 --> 11:47.105
in the way the economy was running, very contrary to sort

11:47.105 --> 11:49.145
of state centered, kinds of ideas

11:49.215 --> 11:50.745
that you needed the state to be in there,

11:50.925 --> 11:54.165
or, you know, you had a sort of a landed nobility

11:54.635 --> 11:55.805
that ran things, you know,

11:55.805 --> 11:57.245
and then a peasantry, you know, he was, he was sort

11:57.245 --> 11:58.805
of very much kind of going against that,

11:58.805 --> 12:00.605
and he was really trying to sort of rationalize it,

12:00.605 --> 12:01.485
you know, try to, I mean, I

12:01.645 --> 12:02.485
rational, I mean that in two ways.

12:02.585 --> 12:04.365
One, in that he was trying to build a system of thought

12:04.475 --> 12:06.525
that made sense of it, but he also was an

12:06.525 --> 12:07.605
apologist for it, in effect.

12:07.805 --> 12:09.005
I don't missay that in a bad way,

12:09.005 --> 12:10.005
but he was sort of saying, well,

12:10.005 --> 12:11.085
yeah, this is kind of a good thing.

12:11.905 --> 12:13.605
He was seeing the order as it existed,

12:13.625 --> 12:15.605
and he was sort of, sort of justifying it.

12:15.865 --> 12:18.885
So it kind of, with him, you had the birth of sort

12:18.885 --> 12:22.525
of just really this idea about systematizing an approach

12:22.525 --> 12:25.245
to economics, and he did it with very pithy phrases.

12:25.275 --> 12:27.805
He's a very, you know, he's, he's, his, his logic is,

12:27.985 --> 12:32.465
is sort of, anecdotal, but, and sort of wooly,

12:32.465 --> 12:34.265
but he has sort of a structure to it.

12:34.265 --> 12:35.665
And then he has these great phrases.

12:35.665 --> 12:38.105
That's one sense I think why he is so influential.

12:38.105 --> 12:40.105
Like, things like, you can't forget, like the invisible ad,

12:40.105 --> 12:42.025
you know, the division of labor, these are phrases

12:42.025 --> 12:44.785
that are very pithy and punt and really capture an idea.

12:45.525 --> 12:48.585
But his, one of his most significant successor,

12:48.795 --> 12:51.065
David Ricardo, is the one who kind of,

12:51.065 --> 12:52.705
and I'm gonna put these two together in

12:52.705 --> 12:53.785
terms of modern economics.

12:53.995 --> 12:57.105
David Ricardo was a much different character.

12:57.105 --> 13:01.865
He was much more the abstracter, the synthesizer in terms

13:01.865 --> 13:03.385
of analytics, you know,

13:03.405 --> 13:05.545
and he was much more, let's not just look at

13:05.545 --> 13:07.585
and make stories from what I'm observing,

13:07.585 --> 13:11.185
let's have a deductive model that makes predictions

13:11.805 --> 13:13.745
and then can then be generalizable.

13:13.845 --> 13:16.265
And one thing about Ricardo, very important of course,

13:16.265 --> 13:19.825
is Ricardo, unlike Smith, Ricardo is politically active.

13:20.445 --> 13:22.865
He comes from a long line of financial traders.

13:22.865 --> 13:25.905
He's a very sign successful financial trader himself.

13:26.205 --> 13:28.905
So he's already involved in one of the advanced sectors

13:28.905 --> 13:30.265
of the economy, the finance sector.

13:31.085 --> 13:33.505
Um, and he's very interested in influencing policy

13:33.725 --> 13:36.065
and, not very successful electorally.

13:36.065 --> 13:38.865
He, he did end up holding a, a seat in a rotten borough

13:39.035 --> 13:40.865
after a long time in parliament,

13:41.755 --> 13:43.255
but he was very interested in policy.

13:43.435 --> 13:44.935
So, so I think you have this sort

13:44.935 --> 13:46.535
of template outta classical ergonomics,

13:46.795 --> 13:48.935
and this is kind of, that's coming out of the, the changes

13:49.035 --> 13:51.055
of the time that are both trying to ra say,

13:51.085 --> 13:52.775
give some rationale to what's going on,

13:52.775 --> 13:56.455
but also then coming up with ideas that,

13:56.795 --> 13:59.815
what's optimal, what's best that, you know, and that,

13:59.815 --> 14:01.695
and what policy should be followed.

14:01.795 --> 14:02.935
And of course, you know,

14:03.215 --> 14:05.215
Ricardo basically nails down the kind

14:05.215 --> 14:07.455
of lassez fair kind of idea.

14:07.475 --> 14:09.975
And Ricardo in his, not in his lifetime,

14:09.975 --> 14:11.735
but in the decades, immediately

14:11.735 --> 14:13.735
after his lifetime, he is a very controversial figure.

14:13.855 --> 14:15.735
I mean, he wasn't, he was not seen positively

14:16.195 --> 14:19.415
by people in England, including Arnold, Arnold Tobe, who,

14:19.635 --> 14:21.495
who wrote and then coined the phrase

14:21.495 --> 14:23.015
industrial revolution in the 1880s.

14:23.515 --> 14:26.495
You know, who sort of saw him as, you know, well, he's,

14:26.645 --> 14:29.575
he's people are, he, his I thinking is too tight,

14:29.955 --> 14:31.495
and he's still too influential.

14:32.155 --> 14:34.015
So it's interesting, even though, you know, now we,

14:34.015 --> 14:35.095
we don't really think of him that way.

14:35.115 --> 14:37.375
You know, Ricardo was, was a figure of, that was seen

14:37.375 --> 14:38.695
as like, well, you know, sometimes you can,

14:38.695 --> 14:41.255
your ideas can be a little too well

14:41.265 --> 14:43.335
formulated, a little too pat.

14:43.555 --> 14:44.695
And, you know,

14:44.715 --> 14:47.975
and parliament was of course very much, sort of,

14:47.985 --> 14:51.095
influenced for years by his way of thinking.

14:51.125 --> 14:53.925
So anyway, that's, that's a long discursion, you know,

14:53.925 --> 14:55.685
but that's sort of classical economics,

14:55.695 --> 14:58.765
which then leads into what the modern field is neoclassical,

14:58.765 --> 15:00.725
and then what we call neoclassical economics,

15:00.935 --> 15:03.125
which really has those traits, these, these sort

15:03.125 --> 15:04.685
of same premises,

15:04.685 --> 15:08.325
and the, these preference for deductive logic, abstraction,

15:08.865 --> 15:11.365
generalizable conclusions,

15:11.595 --> 15:14.125
that then you quote unquote test against reality

15:14.625 --> 15:16.445
and then supposedly modify the theory.

15:16.465 --> 15:18.485
But that, if, if reality doesn't match it,

15:18.485 --> 15:20.765
but that doesn't seem to happen, often in economics,

15:20.765 --> 15:23.725
we often tend to modify, our interpretation

15:23.725 --> 15:25.645
of the world, but that's a whole other story.

15:25.685 --> 15:28.045
I won't necessarily go down that, that track in the moment.

15:28.145 --> 15:30.765
So, so liberalism is of course, is the political doctrine,

15:30.765 --> 15:32.005
the English political doctrine,

15:32.005 --> 15:33.045
but it becomes very,

15:33.045 --> 15:35.765
influential throughout the Anglosphere, more or less.

15:36.035 --> 15:38.445
This is not necessarily the German approach, for example,

15:38.665 --> 15:40.685
Germans have kind of a different way

15:40.685 --> 15:42.565
of looking at things, or the French approach.

15:42.595 --> 15:44.445
They have more status kind of approaches.

15:44.445 --> 15:46.445
But, but liberalism is this idea.

15:46.745 --> 15:49.045
So you have really, again, what's going on is this,

15:49.395 --> 15:51.125
this sort of economic change

15:51.145 --> 15:53.285
and sort of this classical economics,

15:53.785 --> 15:55.725
but then you also have this idea, well, well, alright,

15:55.725 --> 15:57.565
we don't want the state to interfere with markets,

15:57.785 --> 15:59.685
but what is the role of the state?

15:59.685 --> 16:01.925
What is the best form of government?

16:01.945 --> 16:04.965
And so liberalism really comes out of, I,

16:05.245 --> 16:08.085
I would say the fact that, you know, England is in a period

16:08.085 --> 16:12.875
of where there is constitutional parliamentary monarchy,

16:12.885 --> 16:15.675
which is fair, stable, relatively speaking, you know,

16:16.415 --> 16:19.075
not like what's going on, in the continent

16:19.075 --> 16:20.155
after the French Revolution.

16:20.695 --> 16:22.675
Uh, also seen as a counterweight, of course,

16:22.855 --> 16:25.315
to the revolutionary tendencies of the 19th century,

16:25.365 --> 16:27.035
which particularly in the first half, or, you know,

16:27.035 --> 16:28.635
after the French Revolution, of course, you know,

16:28.795 --> 16:29.915
Edmund Burke, you know, sort

16:29.915 --> 16:32.155
of famously sort of criticized that.

16:32.335 --> 16:33.835
Um, and of course, you know, so,

16:34.095 --> 16:35.835
but there were a lot of people who were concerned about,

16:36.015 --> 16:36.515
we don't,

16:38.955 --> 16:43.475
what's the alternative?

16:43.475 --> 16:44.515
What is the right form of government? Well,

16:44.515 --> 16:45.515
you don't really allow the form

16:45.515 --> 16:46.795
of government, though, that's desired anymore.

16:46.895 --> 16:51.235
So, so liberalism comes out, with really this fusion,

16:51.375 --> 16:53.955
I'd say, of classical economics, which calls

16:53.955 --> 16:57.355
for free markets, which implies laissez-faire government,

16:58.175 --> 16:59.595
and then sort of says, well,

17:00.175 --> 17:03.395
and the best form of government to execute

17:03.395 --> 17:05.995
that policy is parliamentary democracy

17:06.815 --> 17:09.755
and equates democracy with elections, really.

17:10.015 --> 17:12.795
So this is a kind of another, I won't go into sort of that,

17:12.795 --> 17:13.995
that side line,

17:13.995 --> 17:16.395
but that's an interesting equation that which we still have

17:16.395 --> 17:17.515
that, well, if you have elections

17:18.015 --> 17:20.395
and you have some kind of legislature,

17:20.945 --> 17:22.235
therefore you have democracy,

17:22.415 --> 17:24.955
and that's not really what democracy is,

17:24.955 --> 17:26.635
but that's, that's a different, kind of story.

17:26.655 --> 17:29.035
But this is kind of this political doctrine that comes out

17:30.155 --> 17:32.855
at the time that essentially is, that really is not

17:32.855 --> 17:34.775
that all, not all that consistent, not all that clear.

17:34.775 --> 17:37.295
It's not really clear whether a parliamentary democracy

17:37.325 --> 17:39.975
that really has a genuine, genuine franchise

17:40.115 --> 17:41.735
and genuine represent representation,

17:41.875 --> 17:43.855
but actually support lassez fair

17:44.585 --> 17:45.975
government policies, for example.

17:45.975 --> 17:47.895
It's not very clear, but this is this kind of idea that,

17:47.895 --> 17:49.245
that, that because of what is,

17:49.245 --> 17:52.685
because England is at the forefront of industrializing.

17:53.065 --> 17:54.565
That's the other thing too. A lot of people are saying,

17:54.565 --> 17:55.685
well, what's the secret sauce?

17:55.705 --> 17:56.925
And they sort of say, well, I guess, you know,

17:56.925 --> 17:58.365
England's got parliamentary democracy

17:58.465 --> 18:00.925
and they've got, you know, last say fair economics.

18:00.925 --> 18:02.845
And so I guess that's what gets you ahead, you know,

18:02.845 --> 18:04.045
that's kind of what all the debate is.

18:05.145 --> 18:07.445
And so the question is though, how much influence did

18:07.445 --> 18:09.325
that have on economic growth?

18:09.345 --> 18:10.725
What's the cause? What's the effect?

18:10.725 --> 18:12.525
That's kind of getting back up to your question,

18:13.185 --> 18:15.085
and I don't think that's a question

18:15.085 --> 18:17.085
that you can settle in one sense.

18:17.085 --> 18:18.685
You can't really prove anything here.

18:18.825 --> 18:23.815
So, but, you know, I would argue that, the,

18:23.815 --> 18:26.215
safe answer is that it, when I say safe answer,

18:26.335 --> 18:27.855
it's an answer that it's defensible.

18:27.855 --> 18:29.695
But there, you know, may be other things you can point out

18:30.275 --> 18:34.335
is that this liberalism was an example of a doctrine

18:34.405 --> 18:39.245
that allowed, people to justify sort of,

18:39.325 --> 18:40.605
a certain set of economic policies

18:40.605 --> 18:42.725
to justify a certain economic order that give,

18:42.785 --> 18:45.045
did give a certain, stability.

18:45.065 --> 18:47.405
And this is where, where people's need

18:47.405 --> 18:48.525
for meaning is very important.

18:48.525 --> 18:51.005
This is, of course, something that sociologists look a lot

18:51.145 --> 18:53.685
at and looked a lot at during the 19th century

18:54.185 --> 18:55.965
and early 20th century, and,

18:56.025 --> 18:58.605
and max of Eber being, of course, the giant here.

18:59.145 --> 19:01.725
Um, and so you do need, there's this idea that you kind

19:01.725 --> 19:03.565
of believe in something,

19:03.865 --> 19:05.885
and, it's good if it's something

19:05.885 --> 19:08.365
that has functional value,

19:08.705 --> 19:11.925
and that, I don't wanna sort of just reduce it to that,

19:12.025 --> 19:14.085
but, you know, it's just kind of holds the idea of,

19:14.085 --> 19:16.565
you know, if you wanna use the word hegemony in the sense

19:16.565 --> 19:20.045
that Gramsci used it later in the 20th century, this idea

19:20.045 --> 19:24.855
that, well, you know, a state and staff needs an ideolog

19:24.915 --> 19:27.655
and a set of ideas, i i, I don't wanna use ideology just

19:27.655 --> 19:31.215
yet, but a set of ideas that both justifies it allows people

19:31.215 --> 19:34.775
to make sense of, it, allows people to, support it,

19:35.235 --> 19:37.335
to feel part of it, to have a meaning in it.

19:37.355 --> 19:40.695
And so that's, I'd say in one sense what liberalism served,

19:41.395 --> 19:44.895
as sort of a kind of a, a civil religion of capitalism,

19:44.895 --> 19:46.215
if you wanna think of it that way.

19:46.395 --> 19:48.055
And that's a very necessary thing.

19:48.755 --> 19:51.495
Um, and, and so in that sense, without liberalism,

19:51.595 --> 19:52.895
you might've had more instability,

19:52.915 --> 19:54.095
you might've had more revolution,

19:54.095 --> 19:57.855
you might've had more impediment, to economic growth,

19:57.875 --> 20:01.375
but it's probably not a cause of economic growth,

20:01.435 --> 20:04.535
but it does shape it and, and supports it.

20:04.595 --> 20:05.815
You know, that's a safe answer.

20:05.815 --> 20:07.015
Again, then you can get to all other,

20:07.485 --> 20:09.055
there's other debates you go on to.

20:09.075 --> 20:10.575
But, you know, I would, I would say

20:10.575 --> 20:12.215
that's probably a pretty, I I'd say I would,

20:12.295 --> 20:13.975
I would be comfortable making that argument.

20:14.035 --> 20:15.815
So there's a lot of ground covered there,

20:15.815 --> 20:17.615
but that's, sort of how I would, you know,

20:17.715 --> 20:18.895
try to approach your question.

20:19.115 --> 20:21.255
So neoliberalism is, again,

20:21.255 --> 20:22.535
I'm not the one who's made this point,

20:22.595 --> 20:25.455
but liberalism, neoliberalism is a bit misnamed

20:25.455 --> 20:28.255
because it suggests that it's an update of liberalism,

20:28.995 --> 20:32.655
and it sort of sounds like that, in the sense that it,

20:32.755 --> 20:36.815
seems to be sort of hypercharged free market

20:37.675 --> 20:41.435
reliance and kind of hyper charge, minimal government.

20:42.845 --> 20:46.255
It's actually, but there's differences between the two.

20:46.255 --> 20:49.045
And I, and I argue that in Neoism is really a kind

20:49.045 --> 20:51.045
of a distinct ideology for a couple reasons.

20:51.115 --> 20:52.805
It's not really based on liberalism.

20:53.265 --> 20:56.325
Uh, one is that of course it's actually rather,

20:56.515 --> 20:58.245
mute on form of government.

20:58.865 --> 21:01.445
Um, you know, liberalism did attempt to really sort of,

21:01.465 --> 21:04.405
at least nominally talk about, the, the sort

21:04.405 --> 21:06.645
of advantages of parliamentary democracy, for example.

21:07.265 --> 21:09.085
Uh, liberalism doesn't really, you know,

21:09.085 --> 21:12.205
other than elections, liberalism doesn't really have much

21:12.205 --> 21:13.365
of a political doctrine.

21:13.625 --> 21:15.565
And the other thing about it, even though it sort

21:15.565 --> 21:18.765
of purports to sort of just support free markets,

21:19.105 --> 21:22.365
and let's say fair government liberalism, nominally, again,

21:22.415 --> 21:24.605
liberalism sort of overlooked a lot

21:24.605 --> 21:26.645
of things in its own time, but liberalism

21:26.945 --> 21:29.805
and laissez fair was more about, okay, yes,

21:29.805 --> 21:32.445
we want government that supports markets,

21:32.545 --> 21:33.925
but mainly doesn't get in their way.

21:34.395 --> 21:39.085
Whereas Nebel neoliberalism is explicitly about wiping away,

21:40.535 --> 21:42.115
any institutions

21:42.615 --> 21:47.075
or interest groupings that, sort of are that

21:47.775 --> 21:49.435
in any way, kind of either not,

21:49.555 --> 21:50.555
I won't even say antithetical,

21:50.555 --> 21:52.275
but in any way sort of constrained,

21:53.135 --> 21:54.915
and I would say this, I would put it this way,

21:55.305 --> 21:57.555
incu economic incumbents within the current

21:57.555 --> 21:58.755
marketplace environment.

21:59.375 --> 22:02.475
So, which is very different than what liberalism called for.

22:02.475 --> 22:04.755
So the idea, for example, you know, anti unionism,

22:05.085 --> 22:07.755
there was certainly a lot of anti unionism in England,

22:08.215 --> 22:10.795
but there was also under liberalism a recognition that,

22:10.795 --> 22:12.875
well, if they organized,

22:13.335 --> 22:15.315
and they established political parties

22:15.335 --> 22:17.995
and they ran in parliamentary democracies,

22:17.995 --> 22:21.275
and they changed policies to sort of account for,

22:21.275 --> 22:23.075
working class interests, you know, that was all right.

22:23.545 --> 22:25.595
Neoliberalism doesn't see that as a, right, right?

22:25.665 --> 22:27.515
It's just, you know, nope, let's just get,

22:27.575 --> 22:28.755
get rid of these things here.

22:29.015 --> 22:30.715
And the other thing about neoliberalism is, of course,

22:30.715 --> 22:35.155
it has a very clear documentary, set of evidence

22:35.155 --> 22:36.155
that shows where it came from.

22:36.375 --> 22:38.675
You know, so there's the famous, you know,

22:38.855 --> 22:42.395
Powell memorandum by Lewis Powell Chamber, US Chamber

22:42.395 --> 22:43.595
of Commerce, you know,

22:43.595 --> 22:45.315
where he lays out or here's the strategy.

22:45.895 --> 22:46.955
Uh, you know, so we've got,

22:46.955 --> 22:49.435
liberalism is a more organic thing in that sense.

22:49.465 --> 22:51.195
It's not sort of from one source, but, but,

22:51.215 --> 22:54.315
but neoliberalism clearly has clear roots in special

22:54.635 --> 22:56.835
interest groups that are very pro-business,

22:57.325 --> 22:59.355
which is not the same thing as being pro-market.

23:00.305 --> 23:03.325
Um, and that also supports policies that go against,

23:03.325 --> 23:04.845
for example, the, you know, anti comp,

23:04.955 --> 23:06.165
anti-monopoly policies

23:06.165 --> 23:08.805
or pro-competition policies are not part of neoliberalism.

23:09.355 --> 23:12.485
Whereas they, they did in one sense come out of liberalism,

23:12.485 --> 23:14.365
classical liberalism, because, you know, there's notion

23:14.365 --> 23:16.605
that yes, you want perfect competition

23:16.625 --> 23:19.605
or comp competitive markets that guarantees yes, well,

23:19.605 --> 23:21.645
I guess we should do something about monopoly.

23:22.145 --> 23:23.445
Um, and that's what kind

23:23.445 --> 23:25.125
of happened in the late 19th century

23:25.305 --> 23:27.205
and early 20th century where people said, actually,

23:27.205 --> 23:28.845
we do have to cut back monopoly

23:28.875 --> 23:31.405
because it interferes with the workings of markets.

23:31.625 --> 23:34.505
So neoliberalism is like, no, no problem.

23:34.595 --> 23:36.105
Let's you know that, which is odd.

23:36.155 --> 23:37.385
Again, that's so neoism,

23:37.425 --> 23:39.225
I considered definitely more of an ideology.

23:39.885 --> 23:41.545
Um, that's more really,

23:41.835 --> 23:44.905
liberalism was definitely supported by business interests.

23:45.705 --> 23:47.285
It was consistent with business interest,

23:47.345 --> 23:49.765
but it also had a broader connotation

23:49.795 --> 23:53.125
that didn't always work in the interest of all businesses,

23:53.325 --> 23:55.645
particularly his policy got formulated based on it.

23:55.645 --> 23:58.525
Whereas ne Neo was clearly to me, and,

23:58.525 --> 24:03.365
and sort of a pro-business, you know, anti, well

24:04.255 --> 24:05.805
anti-union and, and,

24:05.825 --> 24:10.565
and anti-social welfare net, kind of ideology

24:10.565 --> 24:12.965
that also, by the way, has of course, you know,

24:13.095 --> 24:15.285
rolls back income redistribution policies,

24:15.755 --> 24:17.565
even though they might, and these are often,

24:17.565 --> 24:19.685
even if they support social stability

24:19.705 --> 24:23.485
and economic growth, stability, neoliberalism would say,

24:23.485 --> 24:25.005
Nope, fine, let's have another tax cut.

24:25.465 --> 24:27.645
Um, and increase in equality, right?

24:27.645 --> 24:31.205
Which is not necessarily good for economic growth.

24:31.705 --> 24:33.285
So yeah, that's a bit of a discourse,

24:33.285 --> 24:34.965
but that's how I would put neo liberalism.

24:34.995 --> 24:37.165
It's a very kind of different animal despite its name.

24:37.905 --> 24:40.365
You had, there was a postwar order, right?

24:40.365 --> 24:42.925
We had very high growth post World War, war, world War ii,

24:42.925 --> 24:45.645
excuse me, where you had a sort of very high growth.

24:45.745 --> 24:48.245
You had unions that were established in most developed

24:48.445 --> 24:49.725
countries, more or less, you know, the,

24:49.725 --> 24:51.965
in the US less than in places like England,

24:51.965 --> 24:53.805
for example, or places like France.

24:54.465 --> 24:56.645
Um, I'll put aside the whole Cold War

24:56.645 --> 24:57.725
element that was there.

24:57.825 --> 24:59.805
But, but so you had,

25:00.105 --> 25:01.765
and then you had this, so you had these sort

25:01.765 --> 25:02.805
of unions that were established.

25:02.825 --> 25:04.245
You had, yes, the rise now

25:04.245 --> 25:07.445
of the corporate form was the established form of business,

25:07.825 --> 25:09.725
and they were big, these were big companies,

25:09.945 --> 25:11.645
and big unions.

25:12.225 --> 25:13.885
And so you had this sort of order

25:14.035 --> 25:15.365
that came up in the seventies

25:15.435 --> 25:16.725
that came up in the fifties and sixties.

25:16.835 --> 25:19.405
Some people call it the Keynesian order, which was that,

25:19.405 --> 25:21.325
okay, well, we we're gonna have economic growth.

25:21.735 --> 25:23.325
We're gonna basically be pro-business.

25:23.345 --> 25:25.245
So we're, you know, we're not gonna have much income

25:25.405 --> 25:27.165
redistribution, but we're gonna have, you know,

25:27.165 --> 25:28.805
what was referred to as the social wage.

25:28.825 --> 25:30.085
That's the most important thing, right?

25:30.265 --> 25:32.245
So we're gonna have unions, big unions

25:32.245 --> 25:35.565
and big companies sorting out the trade-offs between price

25:36.225 --> 25:38.245
and wage levels, and we'll negotiate that

25:38.245 --> 25:39.245
to collective bargaining.

25:39.505 --> 25:41.045
And then where there are shortfalls,

25:41.045 --> 25:42.445
like people are not unionized

25:42.585 --> 25:45.485
or people aren't working we'll, have the government come in

25:45.985 --> 25:47.965
and, and sort of make up the gap.

25:47.985 --> 25:49.765
And that's what the social wage refers to,

25:49.825 --> 25:53.205
is not just whatever income people get, whether it's from a,

25:53.405 --> 25:54.845
a paid wage from a firm,

25:54.985 --> 25:57.085
or whether it's, transfer payments.

25:57.305 --> 25:59.045
And that's the whole welfare state that came out there.

25:59.045 --> 26:01.325
Of course, you also had the Keynesian ideology of,

26:01.835 --> 26:02.965
well, we have to, to do that.

26:02.965 --> 26:04.525
We want stable growth, we want high growth,

26:04.525 --> 26:06.405
we want stable growth, so we'll manage the business cycle.

26:06.425 --> 26:09.085
Now, that all began for various reasons to come apart

26:10.025 --> 26:11.685
in the late sixties and 1970s

26:12.225 --> 26:14.085
as a whole debate about why that is.

26:14.085 --> 26:15.925
There's a standard story about that,

26:16.105 --> 26:17.365
that I think is wrong.

26:17.445 --> 26:19.525
I won't get into that one. Um, but,

26:19.785 --> 26:22.965
but what, what the point here is that what that happened is

26:22.965 --> 26:27.285
that you no longer, you had this, this sort of accord,

26:27.635 --> 26:28.685
that governed policy,

26:28.865 --> 26:32.245
and that governed sort of the big players in the economy

26:32.755 --> 26:36.325
that included union, representation

26:36.465 --> 26:37.765
of the working class, which is not

26:37.765 --> 26:39.045
necessarily the whole working class, right?

26:39.105 --> 26:41.125
So, and that now became,

26:41.125 --> 26:43.855
that was fine when you had steady growth,

26:43.875 --> 26:46.415
but then now you had a point where now you had sort of

26:47.295 --> 26:50.015
unsteady growth and in fact declining or diminishing

26:50.035 --> 26:53.215
or stagnant growth, and now you just had really the old

26:53.215 --> 26:55.415
power struggles that came up, you know, so

26:55.995 --> 26:58.175
big capital now said, you know, I don't really, you know,

26:58.735 --> 27:02.295
I actually don't really wanna, I, now it's costing me

27:02.295 --> 27:04.135
to share it with big unions,

27:04.435 --> 27:06.695
and, I'm not that interested in this anymore.

27:06.875 --> 27:09.215
And then maybe actually taxes are getting fairly high,

27:09.455 --> 27:12.695
although taxes had reduced dramatically throughout the

27:12.695 --> 27:15.815
fifties and sixties from their very high World War II

27:15.815 --> 27:17.295
levels, which is another story, right?

27:17.315 --> 27:20.215
So, you know, that that's ignored in this whole story.

27:20.315 --> 27:22.535
But the idea is that well, still tax levels are too high.

27:22.555 --> 27:25.535
I'd rather have more money for profit, less for taxes.

27:25.755 --> 27:28.215
So you had this kind of just standard conflict

27:28.215 --> 27:29.735
that came out, and in this case, you know,

27:29.975 --> 27:31.175
business was very organized,

27:31.675 --> 27:34.415
and I, you know, I think you could clearly say organize an

27:34.535 --> 27:35.855
ideology,

27:35.855 --> 27:38.175
and this is tied in with other social movements to sort

27:38.295 --> 27:40.855
of knock, really knock all this, back.

27:41.695 --> 27:44.795
Um, and that's sort of the genesis of kind of,

27:45.845 --> 27:47.235
where we are now.

27:47.545 --> 27:49.155
Because now what's happened is

27:49.155 --> 27:50.995
that you've now got a momentum on the other side.

27:51.055 --> 27:53.515
So in the fifties and sixties, well, going back

27:53.515 --> 27:56.555
to the Great Depression, but, and before,

27:56.575 --> 27:58.955
but mainly particularly a, after the Great Depression

27:58.955 --> 27:59.955
and the end of World War ii,

27:59.975 --> 28:02.115
you had at least tendency towards, okay,

28:02.175 --> 28:05.035
the social wage redistribution, labor capital,

28:05.775 --> 28:08.635
big labor capital, working together, sort of stable growth.

28:08.975 --> 28:11.595
And you now then start shift the momentum to actually,

28:11.595 --> 28:15.425
let's have, big agglomerations of capital

28:15.485 --> 28:20.085
and big agglomerations of wealth, clawing back money,

28:20.585 --> 28:22.605
you know, not redistributing downward,

28:22.605 --> 28:24.365
but re redistributing upward.

28:24.365 --> 28:26.925
That's the rather, sort of a sort

28:26.925 --> 28:28.925
of remarkable thing, that's happened.

28:28.945 --> 28:30.965
And so, and yes, I mean,

28:30.965 --> 28:32.725
and one says you, I don't wanna simplify too much to say

28:32.725 --> 28:34.925
that it's the corporations that are in charge,

28:35.145 --> 28:37.325
but there's no question in that corporate,

28:37.555 --> 28:39.965
when you have big changes in, you know,

28:39.965 --> 28:42.485
and big accumulations of wealth, big accumulations

28:42.485 --> 28:45.725
of political power, both by very wealthy individuals,

28:45.745 --> 28:48.325
and by big corporations, well,

28:49.145 --> 28:51.685
and then they also really start basically,

28:52.555 --> 28:55.565
essentially managing the state apparatus, right?

28:55.565 --> 28:56.765
You know, I mean, there's, there's really,

28:56.785 --> 28:59.125
and we have representative democracy that doesn't really

29:00.155 --> 29:01.645
kind of represent, you know,

29:01.645 --> 29:02.885
you see this often with polling data.

29:02.985 --> 29:04.965
You know, representative democracy does not,

29:05.145 --> 29:07.165
for the most part, deliver what

29:07.685 --> 29:09.455
poll majority say people want.

29:09.995 --> 29:11.855
That's, that's, that's a situation we're in.

29:11.935 --> 29:13.695
This is very demonstrable.

29:14.275 --> 29:16.695
And when you have that, then what happens is that yes,

29:16.695 --> 29:17.695
by definition, in a lot of ways,

29:18.315 --> 29:21.775
the power center moves away from state, the state,

29:21.795 --> 29:25.335
and then a democratic setting from the quote unquote will

29:25.335 --> 29:27.615
of the people towards these big interests.

29:27.615 --> 29:28.655
Of course, now we're getting more

29:28.655 --> 29:29.815
and more powerful economically

29:29.955 --> 29:31.655
and basically have less and less constraint.

29:31.655 --> 29:33.615
Now, whether this is gonna end well,

29:33.795 --> 29:35.775
is another question, but to get

29:35.775 --> 29:37.935
to your second question about sort of the Asia,

29:37.995 --> 29:39.695
so the other thing, but what's happening here,

29:39.975 --> 29:42.085
I think is it's, I, I actually take a bit

29:42.085 --> 29:43.525
of a different view than a lot of people take here, is

29:43.525 --> 29:44.805
that we have the Democratic West

29:44.865 --> 29:49.605
and the autocratic, sort of east, if you wanna call it

29:49.605 --> 29:52.085
that, because I think what's happening is we're actually

29:52.085 --> 29:57.005
getting a system more generally that is dominated by private

29:57.065 --> 30:00.405
or public private entities, even in China.

30:00.905 --> 30:01.925
So even in China. So,

30:01.925 --> 30:03.445
and I'll, I'll, I'll just, you know, so for example,

30:03.505 --> 30:05.725
now China, clearly, right, the state is still kind

30:05.725 --> 30:07.405
of central authority,

30:07.905 --> 30:09.765
but it works a lot through the,

30:09.885 --> 30:11.325
a variety of corporate entities.

30:11.785 --> 30:14.725
Um, and many of these of course, are explicitly controlled

30:14.785 --> 30:17.725
by, the Chinese Communist Party or the Chinese state.

30:17.755 --> 30:20.885
Some of them are not explicitly controlled that,

30:20.985 --> 30:22.725
and of course, it's an autocratic system.

30:22.725 --> 30:24.285
But then if you look at, for example,

30:24.605 --> 30:25.725
a country like the United States,

30:25.745 --> 30:28.605
and you look at, for example, where Google gets a lot

30:28.605 --> 30:30.565
of its money or Amazon gets auto, its money,

30:30.905 --> 30:34.365
and you look at the sort of vast, for example, defense

30:34.705 --> 30:37.605
or surveillance or, you know, like big tech gets a lot

30:37.605 --> 30:39.405
of these contracts, you know, Amazon, for example, controls.

30:39.405 --> 30:42.205
I think about, you know, 90% of the cloud space as I,

30:42.315 --> 30:44.565
something like that, very high amount of the cloud space.

30:44.565 --> 30:47.005
And of course, it makes a huge amount of money from,

30:47.005 --> 30:48.725
renting out cloud space to all manner of actors,

30:48.725 --> 30:49.805
including a lot of, from government.

30:49.805 --> 30:51.445
There's government tech contracts,

30:51.445 --> 30:53.965
government defense contracts, you know,

30:54.115 --> 30:55.165
financial arrangers.

30:55.165 --> 30:57.845
A lot of these are, there's a lot of state money

30:59.005 --> 31:02.855
that is going into private western companies.

31:03.315 --> 31:05.735
And then you do have to ask the, sort

31:05.735 --> 31:07.095
of legitimate question is like, well,

31:07.635 --> 31:08.655
you know, how much different?

31:08.655 --> 31:10.015
So I'm asking this as a provocative question.

31:10.115 --> 31:11.175
I'm not saying that they're exactly the same,

31:11.175 --> 31:12.935
but you have to ask, how much difference is there between

31:13.795 --> 31:16.975
the way the Chinese economy is, is, is ordered,

31:17.035 --> 31:18.095
and how much versus

31:18.115 --> 31:20.015
how the ameri I'll just focus on the American economy,

31:20.035 --> 31:21.415
how much the American economy is ordered.

31:21.415 --> 31:22.775
They both have big corporations,

31:23.045 --> 31:26.695
they have very close nexuses, between government,

31:27.035 --> 31:29.895
the state, between parties as well, democratic and,

31:29.895 --> 31:31.375
and Republican party, right?

31:31.515 --> 31:34.375
Uh, in the United States and the Communist Party in China.

31:34.915 --> 31:36.655
So very close. Next is they look different,

31:36.655 --> 31:37.735
they look nominally, right?

31:37.735 --> 31:39.935
We have just Chinese companies that are, you know, have,

31:39.935 --> 31:42.135
you know, major influences or major shareholdings

31:42.135 --> 31:45.215
or what have you, by the, by the Chinese government.

31:45.435 --> 31:47.735
But they look different than they formally speaking.

31:47.795 --> 31:50.215
But practically speaking, I think one has to question,

31:50.235 --> 31:52.695
and then as you go back to my prior point about

31:52.915 --> 31:56.845
how representative democracy is not delivering,

31:57.795 --> 32:01.295
basically the will of the people as measured by polls,

32:01.295 --> 32:04.695
if just take that, you do, my point here is not to say,

32:04.715 --> 32:05.855
I'm not trying to draw equivalence here.

32:05.855 --> 32:07.655
So I don't wanna say, okay, well, you know, I've just said

32:07.655 --> 32:09.095
that China US equivalent.

32:09.095 --> 32:10.655
I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is that you,

32:10.795 --> 32:13.215
you really actually have to look at actually what's

32:13.215 --> 32:16.455
happening in terms of the operations of, of, of government

32:16.475 --> 32:18.375
and non-government entities in these places.

32:18.795 --> 32:20.495
And I think what you see, if you look at that is

32:20.495 --> 32:22.095
that there's a lot more convergence.

32:23.005 --> 32:24.545
And I'm not saying this is positive, you know, but,

32:24.545 --> 32:27.145
but there's a lot more convergence in the way the economies

32:27.145 --> 32:30.865
and the political, authorities operate across the world.

32:31.365 --> 32:33.025
Uh, so actually, you know,

32:33.345 --> 32:34.225
I do think there's obviously a

32:34.225 --> 32:35.985
geopolitical shift that's going on.

32:36.215 --> 32:37.745
There's an economic shift that's going on.

32:37.935 --> 32:38.945
There's a real thing there.

32:39.345 --> 32:42.205
But institutionally, you, you can make some arguments

32:42.205 --> 32:45.205
that there's a lot more convergence than one would suggest,

32:45.465 --> 32:48.125
or that the typical rhetoric suggests, suggests like, well,

32:48.125 --> 32:50.685
what happens when Asia's dominant to our democracy?

32:50.795 --> 32:52.285
It's like, you know, I, I'm just, so,

32:52.285 --> 32:53.325
I'm more of an empiricist that way.

32:53.325 --> 32:54.765
It's like, let's look at what's actually happening.

32:54.835 --> 32:56.165
When you look at what's happening in the ground.

32:56.645 --> 32:59.245
I don't think it fits very well into these categories.

32:59.295 --> 33:01.565
Again, I, I'm, I'm agnostic in the sense that I,

33:01.565 --> 33:02.765
you know, there's a lot to study here.

33:02.805 --> 33:04.765
I don't have, I don't think everything's, I, I don't think,

33:04.765 --> 33:06.525
think west is identical to the East, for example.

33:06.585 --> 33:08.405
I'm not saying that, but it's,

33:08.405 --> 33:10.615
more similar than you might think.

33:11.155 --> 33:12.575
So I think actually,

33:12.685 --> 33:14.815
this is a question I gave some thought to,

33:14.935 --> 33:16.295
I actually gave some new thought to this.

33:16.315 --> 33:17.815
Uh, I wrote about it in the book, of course.

33:19.315 --> 33:21.655
So, and I think in some ways, I mean,

33:21.705 --> 33:23.535
young is extremely prescient,

33:23.535 --> 33:26.535
but in some ways, if you go back to when he wrote the book,

33:26.775 --> 33:30.435
1957, we're talking about the kind of heyday

33:30.435 --> 33:32.275
of the Keynesian order I just talked about.

33:33.335 --> 33:36.235
Um, and yet, you know,

33:36.255 --> 33:37.555
and you're talking about, in his case,

33:37.655 --> 33:39.075
he coined the term meritocracy,

33:39.075 --> 33:40.595
where you're talking about there's this really

33:40.595 --> 33:42.275
technocratic order, right?

33:42.405 --> 33:46.635
Where formal education, formal credentials,

33:46.635 --> 33:50.355
formal institutions have become the gatekeepers of

33:50.375 --> 33:52.195
who has access to resources.

33:53.015 --> 33:54.675
Um, and,

33:55.825 --> 33:59.085
and you, you have also a shift that's going on in England

33:59.085 --> 34:02.725
where England, of course, is shifting to a services economy.

34:03.115 --> 34:06.485
It's manufacturing sector, still robust, but declining

34:07.695 --> 34:10.435
and of course, will kind of crash out rather spectacularly,

34:10.905 --> 34:13.315
spectacularly as you get to the seventies and eighties.

34:14.335 --> 34:16.875
Um, and this whole order about, so,

34:16.935 --> 34:19.715
and that means that unions the working class,

34:19.775 --> 34:22.115
are getting, a lot less influential e even

34:22.255 --> 34:24.795
and, you know, as well, they have less leverage.

34:24.975 --> 34:26.195
Uh, they're less needed as you get

34:26.195 --> 34:27.315
internationalized economies.

34:27.575 --> 34:30.435
And I think in some ways what young saw,

34:30.435 --> 34:33.195
and again, this is not to diminish his prescient, I mean,

34:33.195 --> 34:36.235
it's pretty remarkable, how prescient his book is,

34:36.495 --> 34:38.915
but in some ways he's, it's the kind of thing where,

34:38.915 --> 34:40.755
you know, sometimes you see things in plain sight

34:40.755 --> 34:42.115
and you don't really see them.

34:42.855 --> 34:44.755
And so it was easy in that time to see,

34:44.755 --> 34:45.915
it's like, well, there's a new order, you know?

34:46.495 --> 34:51.315
Uh, yeah, Britain's not quite the world empire than it,

34:51.315 --> 34:53.675
than it, than it was, although, yeah,

34:53.675 --> 34:57.475
and Suez, the Suez crisis pretty much put the nail in

34:57.475 --> 34:59.915
that coffin, but still, it's hard to give up the notion

34:59.915 --> 35:01.035
that you're an empire, you know?

35:01.035 --> 35:02.835
And always will be. So,

35:03.135 --> 35:05.635
but you could still say, well, we're prosperous,

35:05.635 --> 35:07.715
we have a sort of a good social order,

35:07.825 --> 35:09.755
have a good economic order, we have growth.

35:10.375 --> 35:13.595
Um, and, and of course we also don't have the old,

35:13.595 --> 35:16.995
baggage of the class system, you know, which is false.

35:17.215 --> 35:19.195
But that, that sort of appears to be that way.

35:19.895 --> 35:23.905
And I think, you know, in one sense, a young saw through

35:23.905 --> 35:25.305
that, he sort of said, well, actually,

35:25.305 --> 35:28.025
fundamentally what's happening is just the way you get in

35:28.365 --> 35:30.785
to the system is has changed,

35:31.205 --> 35:33.225
but it's still the haves and the have nots.

35:33.695 --> 35:35.305
Like, that's still the fundamental thing.

35:35.445 --> 35:39.325
And, you know, and you know, you,

35:39.585 --> 35:40.645
and it was just remarkable

35:40.675 --> 35:42.405
that he could sort of see that, well, what happens?

35:42.815 --> 35:45.085
Let's just, he just sort of did, I think a reductio out

35:45.085 --> 35:46.925
of sur He's sort of saying, well, what happens now

35:47.515 --> 35:49.125
when you have the, the North, for example,

35:49.335 --> 35:52.525
which is the center of manufacturing and that's declining,

35:52.665 --> 35:54.805
and the south, which is the center of finance,

35:54.945 --> 35:56.325
and that's, and services,

35:56.345 --> 35:59.085
and that's, sort of rising what happens, right?

35:59.085 --> 36:01.365
These are old splits, you know, that came out

36:01.365 --> 36:04.205
of the industrial revolution, and now they're shifting once

36:04.205 --> 36:06.485
more to the, the north being, poor again

36:06.545 --> 36:08.045
or slowly becoming poor.

36:08.555 --> 36:10.205
What happens, you know, when those people,

36:10.345 --> 36:11.485
if you just carry it out

36:11.485 --> 36:12.765
to its logical extreme, what happens?

36:12.945 --> 36:15.045
Ah, you get, you know, regional conflict.

36:15.045 --> 36:16.885
And the same thing happens on class conflict.

36:16.885 --> 36:20.125
It sort of comes like, well, what happens now when any rec,

36:20.125 --> 36:21.445
and this is kind of obvious in one sense,

36:21.445 --> 36:23.405
because he's a Labor party activist, I think you could see

36:23.405 --> 36:26.165
that is that this, this sort of, conceit

36:26.755 --> 36:27.925
that, well, it doesn't matter.

36:28.125 --> 36:30.565
Everyone can get education if they want it.

36:30.675 --> 36:32.685
Well, it's not really true. We all know that, right?

36:32.705 --> 36:35.685
If I, if I'm come out of poverty in the working class,

36:36.365 --> 36:38.725
I don't have, by definition, this is something

36:38.725 --> 36:40.925
that meritocracy doesn't really address.

36:40.985 --> 36:42.605
It just assumes that everyone has, well,

36:42.605 --> 36:43.485
it's just all based on

36:43.485 --> 36:44.685
merit and everyone has the same access.

36:44.685 --> 36:45.965
But of course, we know that's not true.

36:46.675 --> 36:48.725
That, you know, where you start very much

36:48.725 --> 36:50.565
affects where you end.

36:50.565 --> 36:52.965
That's, that's the reality, I think. I think he saw that.

36:53.265 --> 36:55.085
And, and what's interesting, I I,

36:55.325 --> 36:56.525
I didn't mention this in the book,

36:56.525 --> 36:57.725
but I, I was thinking about it.

36:57.725 --> 36:58.965
I don't know if you're familiar with a film

36:58.965 --> 37:00.405
called I'm All Right, Jack.

37:01.155 --> 37:03.645
It's a 1959 film. I, I recommend, it's very funny.

37:03.675 --> 37:06.485
It's, Peter Sellers is in one of the roles,

37:07.385 --> 37:10.805
and it's basically about, sort of,

37:12.105 --> 37:15.805
is a union leader, and there's a, a company, that,

37:15.865 --> 37:17.685
and there's a strike involved, and there's a,

37:17.685 --> 37:20.645
but it's basically very, it's a black comedy, really

37:20.645 --> 37:23.125
that shows that basically everybody is corrupt, you know,

37:23.505 --> 37:24.765
the unions are corrupt.

37:25.345 --> 37:27.405
The, companies are corrupt.

37:27.425 --> 37:29.085
Of course, he's got the class system in there

37:29.085 --> 37:31.605
because these are sort of arms manufacturers,

37:31.605 --> 37:33.085
or one of them's an arm manufacturers,

37:33.085 --> 37:34.365
and they're sort of like, they, they have these,

37:34.365 --> 37:36.005
these shady deals between the,

37:36.425 --> 37:38.045
and in fact, the guy, well, the other guy,

37:38.045 --> 37:38.805
the guy who's the main

37:38.805 --> 37:40.205
protagonist, I can't remember the name of the actor.

37:40.475 --> 37:42.525
He's a sort of naive person who's in the upper class,

37:42.745 --> 37:44.805
and he's trying to find a position now that he has,

37:44.865 --> 37:46.285
you know, ready to go and find a position.

37:46.345 --> 37:48.445
And he, and he decides he's really, you know, he tries

37:48.445 --> 37:51.685
to find jobs, and of course, he's, he's kind of a, he's sort

37:51.685 --> 37:53.565
of a, a naive innocent.

37:54.305 --> 37:55.565
And so anyway, he can't, they,

37:55.635 --> 37:56.765
they can't place him any place

37:56.765 --> 37:58.605
because he just speaks the truth about things, you know?

37:58.625 --> 37:59.645
Uh, and, and so,

37:59.645 --> 38:01.485
but he finally, well, manufacturing's where they kind

38:01.485 --> 38:04.205
of place him, but he, he wants to be a worker, you know?

38:04.205 --> 38:06.565
So anyway, this is kind, I won't go to the whole, thing,

38:06.565 --> 38:07.605
but it's interesting.

38:07.605 --> 38:10.685
This is 1959. This film came out young, wrote in 1957.

38:10.685 --> 38:13.485
Everything seems to be all good on the surface

38:13.745 --> 38:14.765
of British society,

38:14.865 --> 38:17.845
but this film really shows how cynical,

38:18.655 --> 38:19.625
like people are saying, like,

38:19.725 --> 38:20.905
you know, what's really going on?

38:20.935 --> 38:21.985
Like, is, is there really,

38:22.125 --> 38:23.385
you know, what does it mean to be working class?

38:23.385 --> 38:25.025
What does it mean to be, well, what does it mean?

38:25.025 --> 38:28.505
What does anything mean? And there's a final scene basically

38:28.505 --> 38:30.185
that involves, you know, money being thrown

38:30.185 --> 38:32.745
around a panel program at the BBC,

38:33.205 --> 38:35.325
and everybody is just running for the money.

38:35.745 --> 38:38.045
Um, and then sort of saying, this is what it's all about.

38:38.315 --> 38:39.845
Grab what you can when you can,

38:39.845 --> 38:41.205
doesn't matter what the coits are.

38:41.265 --> 38:44.205
And Malcolm Ridge actually plays himself in that film,

38:44.665 --> 38:46.365
and he's, you know, he's kind of the doan

38:46.365 --> 38:49.125
of the intelligentsia, the sort of popular intelligentsia

38:49.125 --> 38:51.405
of the time, sending up that as well.

38:51.595 --> 38:54.765
It's like, so the keepers of the meritocracy, the sort

38:54.765 --> 38:57.245
of intelligentsia is also set up.

38:57.745 --> 39:00.885
And so anyway, I mentioned that simply to say that the times

39:00.885 --> 39:04.605
that he was writing at, I think a lot of people didn't see

39:04.605 --> 39:07.485
what he saw, but if you stood back, you could sort

39:07.485 --> 39:08.925
of see there's something rotten about this order.

39:09.065 --> 39:12.125
It doesn't really work the way it says it works.

39:12.825 --> 39:16.785
Um, it's not really about the best person winning,

39:17.685 --> 39:20.545
and if it's not about the best person winning, what happens,

39:21.325 --> 39:25.265
and I think young was sort of being tongue in cheek,

39:25.265 --> 39:27.305
but I think he was saying, well, if you don't really address

39:27.305 --> 39:29.385
these things, and I'm going back to earlier things,

39:29.385 --> 39:30.745
like even things like meaning as well,

39:30.745 --> 39:31.985
if you don't address like what's the meaning

39:31.985 --> 39:35.185
of these things, if you don't address helping the haves

39:35.785 --> 39:38.245
and the have nots, actually trying to help them actively,

39:38.245 --> 39:40.725
as opposed to just having a system which supposedly sorts

39:40.725 --> 39:42.005
out people according to their ability.

39:42.005 --> 39:42.765
If you don't do that,

39:42.765 --> 39:44.045
you're gonna end up in a lot of trouble.

39:44.985 --> 39:46.325
Um, and that's why, again,

39:46.365 --> 39:48.205
I don't pull down his preference at all,

39:48.205 --> 39:50.285
but in some ways you can sort of see,

39:50.285 --> 39:53.085
it's like Jonathan Swift in some ways as well, you know,

39:53.105 --> 39:54.325
as another political satire.

39:54.325 --> 39:56.645
He's one of those people who you sort of look at, it's like,

39:56.645 --> 40:00.525
yeah, actually that's pretty obvious, but you saw it

40:00.525 --> 40:02.725
and you put it in such a way that I could see it.

40:02.825 --> 40:05.045
But see, nobody really believed him when he wrote,

40:05.785 --> 40:07.525
and when he tried to sort of push his message,

40:07.525 --> 40:11.045
because the fifties and the sixties, despite what was sort

40:11.045 --> 40:13.445
of lurking beneath, seemed to be prosperous.

40:13.665 --> 40:15.165
And the system seemed to work,

40:15.505 --> 40:18.005
and it seemed that meritocracy was working you, yeah,

40:18.005 --> 40:20.045
you get a college degree or a university degree,

40:20.665 --> 40:22.005
you can get a place in the system.

40:22.065 --> 40:23.245
It seemed like it was working.

40:23.745 --> 40:25.805
Uh, but I think young just saw that it wasn't,

40:25.805 --> 40:27.725
and I think it's, I think it's kind of as simple as that.

40:27.745 --> 40:29.365
It really is the, this basic notion

40:29.365 --> 40:30.525
of haves and haves, nots.

40:30.985 --> 40:32.925
You know, if you don't, you have to do something about that.

40:33.025 --> 40:35.005
You have to address that in any society.

40:35.005 --> 40:36.365
And meritocracy doesn't address it.

40:36.365 --> 40:39.405
It just sort of codifies it and formalizes it.

40:39.745 --> 40:41.605
And, and, and y pointed out that that's,

40:41.605 --> 40:43.685
that's gonna just lead to the same little trouble you've

40:43.685 --> 40:46.445
gotten throughout the ages of history.

40:46.585 --> 40:48.725
So that's kind of, I, I thought about this quite a lot.

40:48.725 --> 40:50.085
It was an interesting question to think about,

40:50.105 --> 40:52.685
but I think that's, in some sense, I think,

40:53.025 --> 40:54.325
in one sense, in retrospect,

40:54.585 --> 40:56.445
his prognosis was rather obvious,

40:57.385 --> 41:00.245
but not at the time, unlike young,

41:00.825 --> 41:02.325
didn't try to make predictions.

41:02.505 --> 41:05.245
I'm more of a, you know, scholar, more of an observer.

41:05.565 --> 41:09.005
I more try to sort of point out, kind of what I,

41:09.155 --> 41:12.165
what I see, and then I try to, in a sense, think about,

41:12.165 --> 41:14.205
well, you know, just where that might lead,

41:14.205 --> 41:17.405
but without predicting, I'm not particularly optimistic,

41:17.485 --> 41:19.445
I will say that, but I won't say to get into

41:19.445 --> 41:20.605
that in terms of how we're going.

41:20.625 --> 41:22.405
And so in the final chapter of the book is

41:22.405 --> 41:23.445
where I pull all these things together,

41:23.665 --> 41:27.645
and I sort of really talk about in terms of

41:27.645 --> 41:29.485
where we are now, is that essentially we're,

41:30.145 --> 41:31.565
and again, I'm not unique in saying this,

41:31.565 --> 41:33.725
but I think what's, what modern, what modern,

41:33.795 --> 41:34.805
what the modern economy,

41:35.105 --> 41:38.725
modern economic change has shown is in the past, it's shown

41:39.575 --> 41:42.965
overcoming of limits, particularly material limits,

41:44.065 --> 41:48.565
but it's also shown, I'd say, a very much an ignorance,

41:48.565 --> 41:53.085
or you could even say denial of other limits,

41:53.475 --> 41:55.765
that are sort of, kind of inherent in the system.

41:55.865 --> 41:57.485
So some of them are, are well known.

41:57.605 --> 41:59.805
I talk about, limits to resources,

42:00.775 --> 42:02.005
which have been been talked about

42:02.025 --> 42:04.325
for a long time in the context of climate change.

42:04.325 --> 42:06.725
But this came up in the seventies with the limits

42:06.745 --> 42:08.885
to growth, movement.

42:09.265 --> 42:11.165
Um, so one of the things that, well, yeah, there's a notion

42:11.165 --> 42:13.085
that, you know, the classical economics

42:13.085 --> 42:15.685
and neoclassical economics is like, well, we're just smart.

42:15.685 --> 42:19.325
We're so clever, we will invent a way out of these limits.

42:19.825 --> 42:21.645
And, and in one sense, it seems to be

42:21.645 --> 42:22.765
that that's what's happening.

42:22.795 --> 42:24.365
That has happened. We have like, you know,

42:24.365 --> 42:27.125
well increased agricultural productivity when agricultural

42:27.125 --> 42:28.725
limits seem to be reached and so forth.

42:29.185 --> 42:31.605
But on the other hand, you know, it seems to be

42:31.605 --> 42:35.785
that we're in a systemic, earth systems crisis, right?

42:35.845 --> 42:37.945
So maybe we've pushed past some limits

42:37.945 --> 42:40.585
that are on the surface, but we're sort of, kind

42:40.585 --> 42:43.145
of coming up against and ignoring deeper limits

42:43.695 --> 42:45.825
that are within, so that, you know, so I talk about sort

42:45.825 --> 42:49.185
of limits, to the, that we're approaching there,

42:49.215 --> 42:50.825
that saying, okay, I think it's pretty clear

42:50.825 --> 42:53.625
that these limits are there, we're up against them,

42:54.245 --> 42:55.425
where that's going.

42:55.575 --> 42:56.945
It's hard to, it's hard to know.

42:57.185 --> 42:58.465
I don't go straight to, you know,

42:58.465 --> 43:00.065
climate change catastrophe, for example.

43:00.165 --> 43:01.945
But, you know, there's clearly a lot of problems,

43:01.945 --> 43:03.545
and I talk really about other limits as well.

43:03.545 --> 43:05.785
So a lot of ways, the final chapter in particular, I think

43:06.485 --> 43:09.105
if, to simplify, I think a lot of it is about limits.

43:09.165 --> 43:10.545
So not just limits. This is the

43:10.545 --> 43:11.905
interdisciplinary part of it as well.

43:12.285 --> 43:14.745
Not just limits the resources, the technical limits

43:14.805 --> 43:16.265
and the economic limits and the sort

43:16.265 --> 43:17.385
of narrow economic sense, but the

43:17.385 --> 43:19.465
limits to knowing, for example.

43:19.565 --> 43:21.265
So, you know, we have a conceit,

43:21.285 --> 43:22.745
and this came out, this was, you know,

43:22.745 --> 43:24.385
this came outta the French Revolution as well

43:24.545 --> 43:26.705
as the industrial evolution that we have this, and,

43:26.705 --> 43:29.225
and the enlightenment before this conceit that, well,

43:29.225 --> 43:30.265
everything's a technical problem

43:30.725 --> 43:32.265
and we can solve everything technically,

43:32.265 --> 43:33.385
and everything's a material problem,

43:33.765 --> 43:36.265
and we can solve the material problem, then we're okay.

43:36.805 --> 43:38.265
And what's happening now, we're finding

43:38.265 --> 43:39.945
that we're getting limits to what we know,

43:40.925 --> 43:43.705
but we think we know limits to meaning.

43:43.925 --> 43:45.185
So we don't really care about, meaning,

43:45.205 --> 43:47.625
we don't really care about the non-material factors

43:47.645 --> 43:49.745
or material factors, and we don't think

43:49.745 --> 43:50.865
there's no real consequence of that.

43:50.865 --> 43:53.025
We think that can be sort of a sideline, you know, well,

43:53.025 --> 43:54.385
that's the churches to deal with that,

43:54.485 --> 43:56.185
or, you know, whatever the special interest groups

43:56.205 --> 43:57.945
or the spiritual communities, we don't, that's,

43:57.945 --> 43:58.985
but that's sort of a separate thing.

43:58.985 --> 44:01.385
It's no longer central. We don't have to worry about that.

44:01.845 --> 44:04.945
But these are all limits, that we're reaching,

44:05.005 --> 44:06.745
and including limits to human psychology.

44:06.945 --> 44:10.025
I mean, again, human beings need to have meaning.

44:10.055 --> 44:11.865
They need to have belong, and they need to have,

44:11.865 --> 44:13.305
you know, so these are, these are needs

44:13.305 --> 44:15.505
that the economic system as,

44:15.645 --> 44:17.545
as the moderate economic systems don't address.

44:18.205 --> 44:20.745
Um, in some sense, they're not meant to address them.

44:20.865 --> 44:23.385
I, I, I admit that, but you know, it's, there's the notion

44:23.385 --> 44:24.385
that you can't just ignore them.

44:24.525 --> 44:27.825
So, so I'd say in terms of the findings of the book, I mean,

44:27.825 --> 44:30.025
I'm, I can't really in one sense boil it down totally,

44:30.045 --> 44:32.010
but I think a lot of it, what I, I try to say at the end is

44:32.010 --> 44:35.365
that we have these real limits that are going back

44:35.365 --> 44:39.405
to interdisciplinary work that are not just to be addressed

44:39.405 --> 44:40.525
by the economics profession,

44:40.585 --> 44:43.805
but by sociology, philosophy, psychology,

44:44.275 --> 44:45.925
political science, political theory.

44:46.505 --> 44:49.685
Um, you know, these are, these are, these are things

44:49.685 --> 44:50.845
that we have to, that, you know,

44:50.845 --> 44:53.445
we have the disciplinary tools to,

44:53.505 --> 44:57.045
and the disciplinary understandings to have some notion of

44:57.315 --> 45:00.555
what they're about, and what's going on.

45:00.935 --> 45:02.875
And I'd say in terms of a research agenda,

45:03.065 --> 45:04.435
this is pretty vague in a sense,

45:04.775 --> 45:08.155
but if I were gonna write another book about just kind

45:08.235 --> 45:10.395
of the present and perhaps thinking about,

45:10.445 --> 45:13.355
going forward, I would focus on kind of what I focused,

45:13.555 --> 45:15.555
I would extend what I did in the last chapter, which is,

45:15.555 --> 45:17.235
well, here are the limits that we're facing,

45:17.235 --> 45:19.195
these various limits, not just material limits

45:19.415 --> 45:20.435
and technological limits,

45:20.575 --> 45:23.155
but, you know, psychological, social, political,

45:23.555 --> 45:25.035
geopolitical, et cetera.

45:25.495 --> 45:27.475
Um, and, and epistemological,

45:27.735 --> 45:28.995
if I wanna use that fancy word.

45:29.415 --> 45:31.195
Um, and you know,

45:31.255 --> 45:34.995
and sort of let's sort of spell out more what that actually,

45:35.055 --> 45:36.275
what's actually going on with that.

45:36.325 --> 45:39.435
Let's get more in depth about how that looks,

45:39.615 --> 45:42.435
what's going on right now, how it's sort of cha

45:43.075 --> 45:45.355
changing the human being, changing the society,

45:45.415 --> 45:46.715
the human collective psychology.

45:46.775 --> 45:48.435
How is it changing that, stressing it,

45:48.895 --> 45:50.115
aiding it as well?

45:50.195 --> 45:51.235
I don't wanna say it's all bad,

45:51.615 --> 45:53.315
but, you know, where are we with that and,

45:53.375 --> 45:55.875
and kind of maybe where do we need to go with that

45:55.975 --> 45:57.835
and in an integrated fashion, you know?

45:57.935 --> 46:00.705
So, that's a bit broad.

46:01.285 --> 46:04.425
Um, but, you know, that would be say, lessons learned

46:04.485 --> 46:06.465
and sort of research agenda, you know,

46:06.575 --> 46:08.225
that could be separate research agendas.

46:08.285 --> 46:10.145
I'm particularly interested in the cross-disciplinary

46:10.165 --> 46:11.545
interdisciplinary aspects.

46:11.545 --> 46:13.785
So I would like to sort of see a kind of a concerted effort,

46:14.005 --> 46:15.385
not necessarily just by me,

46:15.445 --> 46:17.745
but by others to sort of look at that.

46:17.745 --> 46:20.345
So, yeah, that's, that's sort of my takeaway.

46:20.685 --> 46:21.905
If, if I could sum it up.

Faculti AI can make mistakes