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Titus Quinctius Flamininus’ “Italian triumph”

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Michael Fronda discusses Titus Quinctius Flamininus’ “Italian triumph,” an early example of accelerated Roman-Italian interaction seen in a variety of spheres

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 29, 2024

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The conversation revolves around a study discussing an episode in Roman history involving a Roman statesman, Titus Quintus Flamininus, and his return to Rome with his army after a successful campaign. The speaker, Michael, explains the motivation behind examining this event, highlighting its significance in understanding larger historical themes, such as Roman political culture and the relationships between Rome and its Italian allies.

Michael describes how he became intrigued by historical details found in ancient texts, particularly writings by the historian Livy, which depict Flamininus's grand entry into Rome as a "triumph." He seeks to explore the possible motivations for this procession and its implications on Roman politics, particularly concerning the dynamics of power between Rome and its subordinate allies, who were technically independent but relied heavily on Roman military and political structures.

In the broader context of Roman history, Michael references extensive scholarly literature that discusses both Flamininus's political role and the significance of Roman triumphs. He notes that Roman triumphs were not only military celebrations but significant political events reflecting competitive aristocratic politics. The discussion highlights the ritual's complex relationship with foreign policy and military ambitions.

The conversation also delves into the ambiguous status of Roman allies, who, while notionally free, often found themselves in a subordinate position. Michael argues that the Romans relied heavily on their allies for military support, creating a network of relationships that became increasingly complex.

Looking towards future research avenues, Michael suggests reevaluating traditional concepts like "Romanization" and exploring how cultural exchanges and interrelations between Romans and Italians evolved over time. He emphasizes the need for focused research on the mechanisms that fostered integration and blurred lines between Roman and non-Roman identities, particularly in the second century BCE.

In summary, the text encapsulates an exploration of historical interpretation relating to the Roman triumph, its political significance, and the complex relationships between Rome and its Italian allies, while also suggesting areas for further academic inquiry.

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Here are five key points from the video:

1. **Exploration of Historical Episodes**: The speaker emphasizes their approach to studying historical records by focusing on intriguing details or events, which often serve as launch points for broader historical inquiries. They advocate for unpacking these curiosities to reveal insights about larger historical developments.

2. **Titus Quinctius Flamininus and Roman Triumphs**: The video discusses the significant figure of Titus Quinctius Flamininus in Roman history, particularly his return to Rome with his army and plunder, which was described as a triumph. This event opens up an exploration of Roman political culture and the relationship between Rome and its Italian allies.

3. **Integration of Allies in Roman Politics**: There is a nuanced discussion about the ambiguous relationship between Rome and its Italian allies, who were notionally independent yet subordinate. The speaker notes how the Romans relied heavily on these allies in military conquests, leading to a developing connection characterized by intense interpersonal interactions and potentially shared military endeavors.

4. **Impact of Glory and Competitive Politics**: The speaker highlights how the pursuit of personal glory and honor among Roman aristocrats influenced both military foreign policy and the broader socio-political dynamics, indicating that the quest for triumphant displays often determined military decisions and contributed to Rome’s rapid expansion during this period.

5. **Shifts in Understanding Romanization**: The video critiques older models of Romanization that framed it as a one-sided process of cultural imposition. The speaker argues for a more complex understanding wherein dynamics of performance and interaction led to gradual integration, suggesting that early movements toward integration were influenced by relationships between Romans and Italians rather than a simple desire for domination or assimilation.

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Here are some key quotes from the video, highlighting the significant themes and observations:

1. **Observation and Exploration**:
- "I tend to say, make like a small observation. I notice a detail or something in the historical records, some curious episode, a reference in the ancient sources."

2. **Historical Convideo**:
- "I was intrigued by, uh, a mention in the writing of the Roman historian Livy... he came by ship, landed in the heel of Italy, and marched with his entire army."

3. **Historical Significance**:
- "These curious episodes are often revealing for... sort of bigger, bigger, revealing things about bigger historical developments."

4. **Roman Triumphs and Politics**:
- "This episode... of his return, and the triumph is mined as evidence for these various works."

5. **Cultural Integration**:
- "If the Roman triumph is the quintessential celebration that celebrates the Romans' conquest over this exotic other, and Italians are occasionally at least marching in this triumph... aren't they kind of indistinguishably Roman?"

6. **Competitive Politics**:
- "This is... the apex of a Roman general and a Roman politician's career... a triumph in general fits into this general matrix of the very charged, very competitive atmosphere of Roman aristocratic politics."

7. **Impact on Foreign Policy**:
- "This potentially impacts foreign policy decisions... individual generals may make decisions in the field... they want what's best for themselves."

8. **Romans and Allies**:
- "The Romans have a very ambiguous or... contradictory relationship with their allies... they are notionally free, yet they are subordinate to Rome."

9. **Cultural Dynamics**:
- "This tension... where the sources are worse, and maybe looking at some different source material."

10. **Arguing for Integration**:
- "Maybe we can start seeing that there are these early movements towards... integration or... not assimilation."

These quotes encapsulate the discussion surrounding Roman history, political dynamics, cultural interactions, and the intricacies of Roman triumphs and their implications on social relationships among Romans and their Italian allies.

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Here are some articles that explore themes similar to those discussed in your video regarding Roman history, particularly focusing on political culture, Roman triumphs, relationships with allies, and historical interpretation:

1. **"The Triumph of the Roman Republic: Celebrations of Military Achievement"**
This article examines the significance of triumphs in ancient Rome, exploring how they served not just as celebrations of military victories, but as vital components of political life that reflected the hierarchies and power dynamics of the Republic.

2. **"Allies and Enemies: The Role of Italian States in Roman Military Campaigns"**
Analyzing the complex relationships between Rome and its Italian allies, this paper discusses the expectations, obligations, and tensions that defined their interactions, emphasizing the notion of autonomy versus dependency.

3. **"Titus Quintus Flamininus: A Study of Roman Leadership and Political Strategy"**
This article provides an in-depth look at Flamininus's career, focusing on his political maneuvers and diplomatic strategies, illustrating how individual leaders shaped Rome's imperial policies and relationships with its allies.

4. **"Cultural Exchange and Identity in Roman Italy: The Process of Romanization"**
This research article reevaluates the concept of Romanization, examining how cultural exchanges between Romans and Italic peoples created nuanced identities and influenced social structures during the late Republic.

5. **"Ritual and Politics in Ancient Rome: Analyzing the Triumph"**
This exploration of Roman triumphal rituals delves into their dual role as both military acknowledgments and political statements, analyzing how these ceremonies served to consolidate power among the aristocracy.

6. **"Political Culture in the Roman Republic: Competition and Consensus"**
This article discusses the intricacies of political culture in Rome, highlighting how competitive aristocratic politics shaped major events, including military triumphs, and their implications for governance and public perception.

7. **"The Dynamics of Power: Roman Imperialism and Its Italian Allies"**
This paper investigates the power dynamics between Rome and its allies, focusing on how military interdependence influenced political relationships and shaped regional identities within the Roman sphere of influence.

8. **"Negotiating Freedom: The Status of Rome’s Allies in the Republic"**
Focusing on the ambiguity of status among Roman allies, this article discusses how the notion of freedom was constructed and understood within the broader convideo of Roman domination and military collaboration.

These articles would provide a broader convideo for the themes of your video, offering additional perspectives on Roman political culture, military triumphs, and relationships with allies.

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I tend to say, make like a small observation.

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I notice a detail or something in the historical records,

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some curious episode, a reference in the ancient sources.

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And I get kind of interested in it,

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and I try to sort of explode it.

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I really try to unpack it.

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And oftentimes what happens is it's kind of a,

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it's a jumping off point, and I,

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and it's kind of a meandering exploration,

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but I find that these curious episodes are often revealing

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for, sort of bigger, bigger,

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revealing things about bigger historical developments.

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And so, in this case, I was intrigued by,

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a mention in the writing of the Roman historian Livy.

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And he's talking about, tus cor Laminitis,

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this Roman statesman of the early second century,

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late third, early second century bc.

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And that when he returned to Rome from, the province

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where he had been a pro consul for a number of years,

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and he returned to Rome with his army, he came by ship,

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landed in the heel of Italy,

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and then in Esia, modern day Bri Sea,

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and proceeded to march with his entire army.

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And all of the plunder that he had in a, in a procession

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that looked like a triumph says Livy.

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And he, he did this PTO through all of Italy.

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Now, that's an exaggeration. Of course it wasn't through all

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of Italy, but this is this really striking phrase.

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And I, and I started worrying, what's this all about?

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You know, first of all, did this really happen?

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So the first part is,

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is actually the historicity of the event.

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And I, I think it's historical.

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And then if it's historical, what does this say?

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Why would the statesman, Titus Cri faus do this?

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What's he trying to gain by, by having this big, long kind

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of procession through the Italian, peninsula?

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And I, I'm able to kinda link this, the, the, the, the,

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the episode to Roman politics and kind of display culture.

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Um, but also mainly my,

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my real core interest in the relationship between Rome

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and their subordinate allies in Italy at that time

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where notionally independent, but are subordinate to Rome.

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And, and how this, this strange episode kind

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of plays into the development

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and the relationships between the relationship

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between the Romans and their Italian allies.

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As with this, with many things in Roman history, you know,

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there, there's, people have been talking about this

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and this type,

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this event in these time periods since the time, right?

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We have goes back to pious in the second century BC at

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least, the literature, the modern literature is vast.

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Um, in terms of Titus Quintus, Flamin himself, you know,

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this, this statesman kinda a, kinda a superstar,

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a a politician in statesman.

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He comes from a, a very old Ian family,

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but it's not very prominent for a number of generations.

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And all of a sudden, right around this time, right

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around 200 BCE, this, his branch

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of the family become prominent.

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And he's, you know, okay, he's cons in, in, in 1 98,

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at a very young, relatively young age.

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And he's really prominent in Roman

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politics for about 20 years.

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Then he dies in 1 74.

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So you have this kind of superstar character

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and a number of modern works reference him.

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Uh, there's a, there's a biography in German

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by ready file shifter.

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Uh, there's a chapter in a book on,

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Roman career patterns, also in German by Hans Beck

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that focuses on Laminitis as a kind

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of case study in the Roman curses of NorAm.

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Um, a lot of modern scholars cite Laminitis as,

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an example of a Roman general who's important in shaping

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Roman foreign policy at this time,

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or as a, so-called Phil Helene.

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Um, the notion that some Roman aristocrats adopt a kind of,

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a love of of Greek culture.

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And this has an impact on Roman culture on the one side,

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but also Roman foreign policy.

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So that's people like Arthur Eckstein and Eric Gruin

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and maybe the, all the way back to Ernst Beat

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in the middle of 20th century.

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So that's that one side.

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That's the kind of flam side of the story.

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Um, but there's also been this explosion

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of literature on the Roman triumph, really in,

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in some ways kind of the, the most interesting, or,

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or maybe most important in some ways was a relatively

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popular piece by Mary Beard.

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And she's become a really prominent, kind

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of public facing ancient historian.

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And she wrote this just amazing book on the Roman triumph

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that tries to explode a lot of myths about the triumph,

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really take a critical look at it.

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And it's very scholarly,

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but also kind of popular at the same time.

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But there's just innumerable books.

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So, you know, Miriam Pitt's work on, on contested triumphs

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and Ada Berg's work on triumphs as a kind

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of ritual play and performance.

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Sum me's work on processions.

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Mary Popkin did a book on, on, on Roman triumphs

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and the Triumphal Root and its relation to, architecture

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and war commemorations.

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Jessica Clark did a,

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a great book on the Roman triumph in the Roman imagination,

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and how triumphs were important in kind

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of national narratives

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and how the Romans told narratives of war and victory.

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Um, so there's, and, and, and, and, and flam triumph.

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His actual triumph in Rome was at the time

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the grandest triumph ever.

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It was three days long. It was unprecedented.

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We have very detailed accounts of the triumph.

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And so this, this episode, this longer episode

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of his return, and the triumph is mined as evidence

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for these various, works.

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And so I guess my kind of small study,

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my little chapter kind of situates itself in

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between these works, right?

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There's stuff on the triumph, but also stuff on tus squi,

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squinkies fla himself,

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and also kind of some of the broader questions

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of Roman foreign policy expansion and so forth.

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At this time, I guess in general, Roman triumph, you know,

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this was the a, a a very special ritual.

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Um, this guy was contested a general,

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if he won a significant, victory, would return to Rome

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and before he entered the city,

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'cause he's not allowed to enter the city

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because at this time when he's a general, he has imperium.

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This is the a, a kind of a religious sanction

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to wage war to lead troops.

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And you're not supposed to enter the city with imperium.

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He stays just outside the city.

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He makes a report to the Roman Senate,

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and he requests a triumph.

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And this is debated in some cases, some cases turned down.

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But if he's awarded a triumph, he's allowed to march

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with his army under arms, under imperium,

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exceptionally into the city,

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display either all, or at least a

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Representative amount of the booty

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and plunder that he's brought back from campaign.

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Um, in some cases,

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the defeated general would've been captured

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or be executed publicly.

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This is not always the case. Sometimes human captives were

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paraded around in kind of native garb

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to show off the exotic, triumphs.

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Anyway, okay, so this is this, this, this

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very charged atmosphere.

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And this is really, the kind of the apex

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of a Roman general and a Roman politician's career.

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So on the one hand,

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a triumph in general fits into this general matrix of the,

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the, the very, charged very competitive,

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atmosphere of Roman aristocratic politics at this time.

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Roman aristocrats are driven to compete, to win offices.

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The word for offices in, in, in, in Latin was res honor.

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So the actual, the office is the honor, right?

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You have honor by winning the

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office, and then it's also an honor.

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Um, and, and so there's this great, this push to win

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to win offices, especially high offices

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that allowed command, which then allowed

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for military victories, which allowed for glory.

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And then you could use this glory

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and use the, the loot that you brought back

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to put up monuments

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or other commemorate other commemorative performances

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to enhance your prestige and that of your family.

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So again, that's the kind of triumph in general

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and how it fits into Roman politics.

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On the other side, if there is this huge drive

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for Roman, for Roman aristocrats to win glory,

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this potentially impacts foreign policy decisions.

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And there's a huge literature on

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what is actually driving this.

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The, the massive Roman expansion that occurs at this time.

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Rome transforms from a, a very strong regional state.

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You know, they, they control the bulk of Italy.

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They've just defeated Hannibal in a long, difficult war.

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And then within 30 years,

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they've essentially conquered the entire

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Mediterranean or, or large chunks of it.

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They've become a world power. What's driving this?

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In some ways it's obvious, you know, loot well, the money,

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the wealth, and there is a massive influx of wealth.

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But some of also what drives it is the desire,

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the drive for glory.

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And then therefore, individual,

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individual generals may make decisions in the field that

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yes, certainly they want what's best for Rome,

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but maybe they also want what's best for themselves.

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So you have a foreign policy that is driven

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by this competitive matrix,

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and it intersects with the, the, the drive for loot.

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The loot is necessary for the kind of commemorations

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that also provide glory and honor.

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So there's this, the, the, the, the, the triumph sort

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of brings together this really, this, this,

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this deeply embedded matrix of competition, politics,

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warfare, expansion, wealth, you know, and, and,

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and display relations.

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Again, this is, this is, and this is where I think my,

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I think my, my chapter,

08:34.085 --> 08:36.325
and again, it's a, it's a, it's a small, it's a small study.

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It's a, it's a chapter in an edited volume.

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Um, I think really kind of makes a, a, a kind

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of distinct contribution.

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'cause thus far what I've said is, is well worn ground.

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You know, we can debate the, the, the, the details,

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but it's pretty, everyone kind of knows this is,

08:50.215 --> 08:52.375
there's this kind of, this, this interrelation, right?

08:53.115 --> 08:54.375
But what's happening with allies?

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So the, the Romans have a very, ambiguous or, or

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or contradictory relationship with their allies.

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They are notionally, in most cases, they're notionally free,

09:05.215 --> 09:06.995
yet they are subordinate to Rome.

09:07.105 --> 09:08.635
They don't really, they're not really able

09:08.635 --> 09:10.995
to exercise foreign policy independently anymore.

09:11.295 --> 09:13.955
The Romans tend not to interfere in local politics,

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but when the Romans go to war, they demand,

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or they can request troops

09:18.935 --> 09:20.555
who would serve alongside the Romans.

09:20.555 --> 09:23.555
You'd have a Roman Legion of Roman, Roman citizens,

09:24.135 --> 09:25.755
and then you'd have a, a contingent,

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almost like a, like an Allied Legion.

09:27.235 --> 09:28.955
They weren't called a legion, but you'd have as many,

09:29.015 --> 09:31.395
if not more allied soldiers

09:31.935 --> 09:33.515
in a Roman army at any given time.

09:34.055 --> 09:35.795
Um, the Romans leaned heavily

09:36.535 --> 09:39.555
on their allies in their conquests.

09:39.935 --> 09:42.515
Um, you know, some, some argued the Romans couldn't have had

09:42.515 --> 09:44.395
their military success if they didn't have this kind

09:44.395 --> 09:45.875
of military, support.

09:46.255 --> 09:48.715
And even that, in some cases, it seems to been forced,

09:48.775 --> 09:50.915
but in other cases, perhaps not,

09:51.035 --> 09:52.635
because the Romans, again,

09:52.635 --> 09:54.515
they have this ambiguous relationship with the allies.

09:54.665 --> 09:58.475
They, they are seems to be in this period an intensifying

09:58.855 --> 10:02.355
of relations, interpersonal connections,

10:02.795 --> 10:05.595
business connections, potentially, if not intermarriage,

10:05.595 --> 10:08.435
other kinds of, of personal and kinship bonds.

10:08.895 --> 10:10.995
We know the Romans are recruiting very heavily,

10:10.995 --> 10:14.075
perhaps at some of the highest levels of allied,

10:14.075 --> 10:17.395
recruitment at this time, say 200 to about 180.

10:17.585 --> 10:20.515
There's some cases where entire Roman armies are made up

10:20.515 --> 10:22.795
of non Romans, usually garrison type forces.

10:23.335 --> 10:25.515
Um, and when these armies are in the field,

10:25.545 --> 10:28.635
when these Italians are in the field, from what we can tell,

10:28.635 --> 10:29.755
they're treated more

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or less the same as Italian as Roman soldiers.

10:33.055 --> 10:35.995
In most cases. They're given a share of the loot.

10:36.375 --> 10:37.915
Um, they're given, you know, they're, they're,

10:37.915 --> 10:40.795
they're treated presumably by the, the conquered people.

10:40.795 --> 10:42.555
They're, they're, they're viewed the same way.

10:42.555 --> 10:44.675
They, it seems that it's kinda ambiguous for a,

10:45.275 --> 10:47.115
a conquered people in the provinces.

10:47.115 --> 10:49.155
They're ma not making a differentiation between,

10:49.155 --> 10:51.195
between Romans and, and Italians.

10:51.615 --> 10:54.755
So I think there's this intensification of, of relations

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between Romans and Italians at the same time.

10:56.915 --> 10:58.875
There's this massive power differential,

10:59.495 --> 11:03.395
and in some cases, this P power differential leads to abuses

11:03.535 --> 11:04.875
by Roman magistrates

11:05.035 --> 11:07.155
or Roman Italians are not protected under

11:07.155 --> 11:08.275
Roman law and so forth.

11:08.295 --> 11:11.155
And so the second century, BCE sees this real,

11:11.385 --> 11:12.475
this real sort of tension.

11:13.215 --> 11:15.835
Um, and I guess what I argue in the, in, in, in the paper

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is, part of this intensification

11:19.565 --> 11:24.505
of relations is I think we start to see some early examples

11:24.725 --> 11:29.345
of decisions by Roman aristocrats either to include

11:30.455 --> 11:32.705
Italian allies in some of their,

11:32.705 --> 11:35.025
commemorative performances like the triumph,

11:35.165 --> 11:37.025
or it's not really in this paper.

11:37.425 --> 11:38.505
I argue it's elsewhere

11:38.655 --> 11:40.505
that the Roman aristocrats are actually,

11:40.775 --> 11:43.545
setting up commemorations in Italian communities.

11:43.565 --> 11:45.465
So in other words, not just putting up a monument in Rome

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that says, Hey, I, I, I defeated the Galatians,

11:47.645 --> 11:49.345
but setting this up in an Italian town,

11:50.045 --> 11:54.125
or like Titus squint Laminitis marching through all of Italy

11:54.125 --> 11:56.045
where the territory he would've walked

11:56.045 --> 11:59.325
through would've included non Roman space.

11:59.905 --> 12:02.565
The audience he's expecting are not Romans.

12:02.625 --> 12:04.045
And this to me is fascinating.

12:04.465 --> 12:06.565
What's in it for a Roman aristocrat to do this

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unless he felt this enhanced his prestige?

12:09.205 --> 12:10.445
And then what's the impact of this?

12:10.505 --> 12:13.805
Is this, there seems to be a kind of blurring of the lines

12:14.025 --> 12:15.685
of, at least in certain contexts

12:16.105 --> 12:17.525
of what's Roman and what's not Roman.

12:17.585 --> 12:20.245
If, if, if the Roman triumph is the quintessential

12:21.115 --> 12:25.365
celebration that celebrates the Romans conquest over this

12:25.365 --> 12:28.805
exotic other, and Italians are occasionally at least

12:28.885 --> 12:32.605
marching in this triumph in that moment, aren't they kind

12:32.605 --> 12:33.645
of indistinguishably Roman?

12:33.665 --> 12:35.245
What's the Roman audience think? Right?

12:35.385 --> 12:37.125
So I think this is this, that that's what kind of, kind

12:37.125 --> 12:38.565
of inspired the, the, the, the work.

12:38.565 --> 12:41.365
And I think my con, I think my, my argument is persuasive.

12:41.365 --> 12:43.405
And, but I demonstrate that this is again, a kind

12:43.405 --> 12:46.525
of a step in this development of this blurring of the lines

12:46.525 --> 12:48.125
that will lead eventually.

12:48.125 --> 12:51.005
It's a long, messy process and a violent process,

12:51.465 --> 12:53.845
but that will lead eventually to an integration of,

12:54.025 --> 12:55.685
of Rome in Italy.

12:55.915 --> 13:00.085
This, chapter is actually part of a kind of a, a suite

13:00.865 --> 13:05.325
of, of chapters that deal with similar questions in this,

13:05.585 --> 13:06.845
in this executive.

13:07.085 --> 13:10.325
I, I, I've, I I have another piece on Roman

13:10.565 --> 13:11.725
displays of spoils.

13:11.725 --> 13:13.765
So this overlaps, you can see it overlap with this,

13:13.795 --> 13:16.325
with this chapter in this Roman, this Italian triumph.

13:16.785 --> 13:20.285
Um, you know, I have another chapter that,

13:20.285 --> 13:22.885
that talks more specifically about the,

13:23.615 --> 13:26.965
elite inter relations in this, in this period, not only

13:26.965 --> 13:29.085
between Romans and non Roman Italians,

13:29.305 --> 13:31.085
but also between elites,

13:31.775 --> 13:33.245
among different Italian communities.

13:33.245 --> 13:36.245
And I, I, I argue that there is just, this is a period

13:36.245 --> 13:38.965
where these networks become denser and denser

13:38.965 --> 13:40.125
and denser and more overlapped.

13:40.265 --> 13:43.285
And, and so, you know, my future research, I'm not sure

13:43.305 --> 13:44.845
how much longer I'll be,

13:45.075 --> 13:47.165
I'll be drilling into these in these questions.

13:47.245 --> 13:48.805
I think the goal is, is to try

13:48.805 --> 13:50.765
to bring these different threads together in a,

13:50.765 --> 13:52.485
in a synthetic sort of study.

13:53.925 --> 13:56.345
But where I think there should be work is, you know, this,

13:56.345 --> 13:57.905
this question sort of ebbs and flows.

13:58.045 --> 14:01.945
And, and, and, you know, for a long time, the old, old way

14:01.945 --> 14:05.185
of, of looking at, Roman Italian relations was,

14:05.215 --> 14:07.985
I'll use the bad word, the R word romanization, right?

14:07.985 --> 14:09.305
It was the old Romanization model.

14:09.365 --> 14:13.385
And this was often seen as the, the, the defeated,

14:14.165 --> 14:17.825
seeking out or wanting to become Roman, whether

14:17.825 --> 14:19.785
because they felt Roman culture was superior

14:19.845 --> 14:22.345
or more attractive, or whether it was just for simply,

14:22.965 --> 14:24.225
utilitarian reasons.

14:24.245 --> 14:26.025
You know, if I speak Latin and I dress like a Roman,

14:26.025 --> 14:27.305
they're gonna treat me better and I'm gonna

14:27.305 --> 14:28.545
get contracts or something, right?

14:29.045 --> 14:31.345
Um, and then there was a push away from this, right?

14:31.345 --> 14:34.585
There was a tendency to see a, a kind of early romanization

14:35.085 --> 14:38.025
and early integration, in Italy.

14:38.025 --> 14:39.945
And then the argument is that this, that, that the,

14:40.225 --> 14:42.785
that there's more and more push towards integration,

14:43.125 --> 14:46.065
but the Italians are frustrated that the Romans will not,

14:46.905 --> 14:49.485
fully incorporate them into the political system,

14:50.065 --> 14:52.185
for example, by extending citizenship fully

14:52.805 --> 14:55.185
or by, allowing Roman elites

14:55.185 --> 14:57.505
to participate in Roman politics, right?

14:57.845 --> 15:00.825
And that this frustration ultimately leads to a big revolt,

15:00.885 --> 15:03.185
the Social War in the early first century BC

15:03.275 --> 15:05.585
where the Roman allies revolt one last time,

15:05.765 --> 15:06.945
the Romans defeat them.

15:07.325 --> 15:09.065
But then ironically, after the war ends,

15:09.535 --> 15:10.785
they grant them citizenship.

15:10.785 --> 15:12.545
And from that point forward, Italy and

15:12.545 --> 15:15.825
and Rome are increasingly not distinguishable.

15:16.255 --> 15:19.945
Okay? Um, there's been a pushback against that model,

15:20.205 --> 15:21.705
and I think a good pushback that says,

15:21.705 --> 15:22.985
this is an overly simplistic model.

15:23.015 --> 15:24.505
It's a kind of colonialist model.

15:24.695 --> 15:26.385
It's, it's, you know, it's, it's that,

15:26.385 --> 15:28.385
that people don't wanna be conquered.

15:28.385 --> 15:30.105
They don't wanna become someone else, right?

15:30.325 --> 15:32.705
And it tends to emphasize resistance

15:32.845 --> 15:35.585
and the resilience of local communities, the survival

15:35.645 --> 15:36.985
of local cultures

15:37.085 --> 15:40.305
and structures under a veneer of Roman,

15:40.565 --> 15:41.705
of Roman control.

15:41.725 --> 15:44.345
And that therefore pushes back integration

15:44.375 --> 15:45.385
much, much, much later.

15:46.165 --> 15:50.545
And I think I am arguing for, you know, maybe a critical

15:50.545 --> 15:53.625
and careful swing of that pendulum back a little bit.

15:53.655 --> 15:55.385
That, that maybe we can start seeing

15:56.725 --> 16:00.335
that there are these early movements towards

16:00.335 --> 16:01.615
what we might call, I don't know if we wanna call it

16:01.685 --> 16:04.535
integration or, or it's not assimilation.

16:04.635 --> 16:05.935
I'm not sure what word we would use,

16:06.515 --> 16:08.695
but I think where the, where the work needs

16:08.695 --> 16:10.295
to be done is on the mechanisms.

16:10.415 --> 16:12.935
I think the old fashioned, you know, top down,

16:12.935 --> 16:15.255
either the Romans kind of impose their culture on the

16:15.255 --> 16:17.535
Concord or, or this other model, which is the, the,

16:17.535 --> 16:19.855
the Concord want to become Roman.

16:20.355 --> 16:22.815
That's too simplistic. It's outdated, it's colonialists.

16:22.815 --> 16:24.735
I don't think it makes sense. But you know, what,

16:24.735 --> 16:26.815
what interests me are, are the, are, are, are, you know,

16:26.835 --> 16:29.135
you know, guys who are working like, like Curl Hocus comp

16:29.315 --> 16:32.895
or Cliff Ando who are really using sociological models.

16:32.895 --> 16:34.815
They're talking about hobby twos and,

16:34.995 --> 16:38.165
and the way in which patterns of behaviors

16:38.305 --> 16:39.725
and symbolic patterns

16:39.785 --> 16:44.645
and performative patterns shape the shape,

16:44.645 --> 16:46.365
understanding and shape norms.

16:46.545 --> 16:48.645
And I'm thinking that's really what's happening here.

16:48.645 --> 16:51.205
That it's not that the Italians wanna become Roman, it's not

16:51.205 --> 16:54.125
that the Romans want the Italians to be Roman for a day,

16:54.145 --> 16:57.525
but that these various kinds of performances opportunities

16:57.525 --> 16:59.485
where the lines are blurred between Roman

16:59.545 --> 17:03.165
and non Roman, where Roman power is communicated in a

17:03.165 --> 17:06.645
particular way to an Italian audience, kinda reinforces

17:06.705 --> 17:08.925
and normalizes over time a certain

17:09.595 --> 17:11.755
political norm.

17:12.535 --> 17:16.555
And that contributes to an integration down the line.

17:16.575 --> 17:18.995
So I think there really is room for work on this

17:19.055 --> 17:20.795
of really drilling into the second century,

17:20.805 --> 17:23.835
maybe even earlier, where the sources are worse,

17:24.415 --> 17:26.075
and maybe looking at some different source material,

17:26.075 --> 17:28.995
maybe new Numismatics, I'm on nes,

17:28.995 --> 17:31.635
maybe a more careful study of archeological evidence,

17:31.855 --> 17:34.755
you know, to really kind of try to get at some of these,

17:34.815 --> 17:38.195
the questions of these mechanisms of creating new norms

17:38.395 --> 17:41.115
that help con, that contribute to,

17:41.255 --> 17:42.395
an eventual integration.

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