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Eva-Maria Maggi and Smoke Elser discuss the life and quest of packer and outfitter Arnold “Smoke” Elser to protect wild lands by bringing thousands of people deep into the mountains of Montana on horseback.

Image courtesy of interviewee. May 3, 2024

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This video video is a detailed account of a person's experience with horse packing and wilderness conservation, focusing on their journey of documenting oral histories into a book. The individual, who teaches political science at the University of Montana, shares their enthusiasm for a horse packing class led by a well-known guide named Smoke. The guide’s expertise is highlighted, particularly his engaging storytelling methods that captivated the narrator during their lessons about packing gear on horses and mules.

As they delve into the project, the narrator began recording Smoke's oral history, which unfolded over seven years and incorporated personal stories and experiences from the wilderness, including details about events like the Canyon Creek Fire. The narrator emphasized the importance of archiving and immersing themselves in the local wilderness history, appreciating the interconnections between people, culture, and land.

Through their interactions, Smoke conveys the significance of wilderness conservation and the personal connection individuals can have with nature. He shares insights from his experience as an outfitter, highlighting the value of teaching others to appreciate and understand the wilderness. Both individuals emphasize that wilderness should be open to everyone, aiming to inspire people to engage with and protect these natural spaces for future generations.

The conversation also touches on the broader history of wilderness legislation in Montana, notably the Wilderness Act of 1964, and the grassroots movements that drove the establishment of protected areas. Overall, the text explores themes of education, storytelling, conservation, and the transformative power of connecting with nature at a slower pace.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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I got a job here at the University

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of Montana in Missoula teaching political science.

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And actually before I even started working here, I signed up

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for smoke's, horse and meal packing class.

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So he's pretty well known in the horse

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and mountain world, for being the guide you need

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to learn from if you really wanna know how

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to pack your gear on a horse and a mule.

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And so I came down to his barn. It's a pretty old barn.

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Um,

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and it reminded me right away of my, my barn at home

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that I grew up in, in Germany, has old rocks

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and it's, from the outside, pretty thick walls

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and has lots of history inside.

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Anyway, so I was pretty intrigued.

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And, smoke is really good at teaching.

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Um, in one of his secrets is to do that with stories.

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So he shows you how to do a knot

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or how to, put on a saddle or something.

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And then he's, he's telling you about one

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of his adventures in the Bob Marshall,

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and I was so mesmerized by that, that I just knew I had

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to record or do something with it.

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And it took me a little bit. He's quite lar

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Lou's quite large, pretty impressive guy.

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So I was just like, no,

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I don't know this random German does she,

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does he wanna do that with me?

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And, so it took me a little bit and then I asked him,

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and he was, so open and,

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and, really like, said, sure, you know,

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let's start a conversation.

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Anyway, so we started recording his oral history

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and that eventually then morphed into a book that overall,

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that took over seven years.

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I started out with the oral history interviews.

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Um, I would not say they're a classic interview, so not

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what I did for my PhD.

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It was really more me sitting here in the barn

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with my recording stuff and just telling him, well,

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you tell me your story, whatever you wanna talk about.

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So I didn't even go in a chronological order.

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I, just basically invited him

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to speak up, whatever came to his mind.

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And so that's what we did evening after evening.

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And I got so curious.

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There were so many stories in

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there that I had no idea about.

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I mean, I just moved to Montana.

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I've been here a couple times before,

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but I've never really, I didn't really

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know much about anything.

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Oh, there he is. Um, and,

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and so I went into the archives

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and kind of filled those, filled those holes.

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Hi, smoke. Come on in. Yep. Oh, that looks great.

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Yeah, so I was just talking about my research a little bit.

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Yeah. And so there were some stories, for example,

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about a wildfire, the Canyon Creek Fire

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that I really didn't know much about.

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So I went into archives

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and I'm really lucky that I have the university right here

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that has an extensive archive about, wilderness

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and wild places and legislation and history.

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And so I just spend a ton of time there

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and being political with a PhD, I love archives.

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So I had a pretty good time going back and forth.

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Well, I got into it because I saw some guys doing it,

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and I just liked it to start with.

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And I, I, actually worked for the Forest Service for a,

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a couple of years and then worked

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for an outfitter for seven years.

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So that's how I got into the business.

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I bought an outfit then

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and started in, been doing it ever since.

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Well, we're a master of many trades. Mm-Hmm.

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And that's because we, we never,

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we don't really master anything.

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We're a little bit a veterinarian.

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We're a little bit a horse breaker.

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Uh, we're a little bit, I know a little bit about Canvas.

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We know a little bit about tents.

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We know a lot about ropes

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and a little bit about saddles of all kinds.

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And, and above all, we have the appreciation

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and the ability to convert

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and interpret the country to the guests.

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So when they come, they're kind

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of un they don't know what's going on.

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And, and my, my job is

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to slow 'em down the three mile an hour, the speed

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of a horse, and then interpret what they're seeing so

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that they understand what they're seeing.

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She was one of my students in the, in my packing class.

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And, and, so we just started teaching.

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And when I, when I got into about the,

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started loading the mules

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and the horses in there, she really shined in

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because she wanted to do it

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and knew how a little bit about how to do it.

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And boy, she, she wanted to learn everything there was

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to know about packing an animal

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and getting your equipment into the hills.

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Yeah, it's may almost,

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I feel like smoke is probably the one to talk about that.

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But, we, the goal was for this book really,

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and it came together after a while that we wanted

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to take people on a pack trip that

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otherwise would never be able to do that.

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So people from London who might never come,

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or maybe they weren't to come to the Bob Marshall,

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but you know, who would come up

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with the idea to ride on a horse.

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And, and smoke did that for so many years

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that he took people really from all, walks of life,

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from everywhere around the world into the wilderness.

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Some of them never been on a horse, and they spent five

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or six days in there and, really experienced

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and learned about it and eventually wanted to protect it.

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So, the book was really the idea to do do exactly that.

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Um, and to take as many pack trips as you can. Um, smoke.

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And I never rode together.

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Like we never actually went into the mountains together.

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Unfortunately, we never rode a horse together,

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but I always say I traveled every single corner

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of the Bob Marshall with him.

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Right. And so, in a way, I wanted

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to translate that for everybody.

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And I think we, we were able to do that.

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You can really pick up this book

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and read, about a Pac trip in,

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in the winter when it's snowing.

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You can read it about it in the summer.

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You know, you see what, what, you know, experience with

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how smoke felt when he saw the grizzly wear come towards him

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and make that decision of like climbing up that tree.

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Um, and also, how it, the trade

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of an outfitter really worked.

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Like, what kind of, unique qualities you need

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to have think smoke was talking about.

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Um, that there are so many traits you have to learn,

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but I think one thing you can't really learn and you have it

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or you don't, is the people skills.

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You know, to be able to sit around the campfire and, and,

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and learn from people.

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It doesn't matter if they're from down the street here in

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Montana and then know the woods, or from London

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or from New York City or from Los Angeles.

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Um, and you, you are able not only

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to make them feel at home,

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but also to teach them something about, about the country.

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And I hope that the book does that.

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Sure. The first thing we wanna do is, the, you need

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to learn how to pull a rope and never push a rope.

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You can't push a rope anywhere.

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You can't push a chain anywhere.

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You see, you have to pull, always pull.

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So when you're tying a knot, you always pull.

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You never push. And if you pull

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and leave loops in the knot, you'll automatically be able

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to untie it very easily.

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So, that's what we, we do.

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And I just, tell 'em a story about, Hey,

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when you put a saddle on, remember it's gotta fit.

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It's gotta fit the animal.

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So you gotta make sure

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that the saddle fits and fits correctly.

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And then when you go to get on the saddle yourself,

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you need to make sure it's fitting.

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You, your stirs are right and everything is just right.

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It, the cinch is tight enough.

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And then I can go into cinch, you know, I like a 17

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or 18 strand, a moha cinch.

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A lot of people are using these new nylon and rubber cinch.

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I don't care for those. 'cause I want a cinch that

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that doesn't soar the horse.

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And I can go on and on about that.

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Well, I, the thing I did, I,

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I was surprised when I testified

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before the Scapegoat Wilderness area, I was surprised

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because of the old gentleman that I worked for

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as an, as a packer.

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Uh, I worked seven years for him.

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Uh, they took me to, to a hearing,

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and he didn't even tell me.

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He had signed me up to speak, and I didn't know that.

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And all of a sudden, a senator says, okay, next is smoke.

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Well, that surprised me, first of all.

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And I about sat down right there,

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but then eventually I, I had an opportunity to

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testify before,

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a committee on the Lincoln Scapegoat Wilderness,

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and tell them why we wanted it as, as a place

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where we can take people and interpret what they're seeing.

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You know, I can go along a trail

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and I can pick out a flower that's only two

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or three inches high and identify it.

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And pretty soon I have people

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that are running big corporations

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and everything else, they're jumping off of their horse

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and taking a look at this flower laying on their

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belly in the pine needles.

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But, that's, that's what we try to do.

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And I, the book is set up so that I was hoping that, that

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somebody would get right onto Kate, a horse right behind me

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and follow me and cannonball through the back country.

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And then I was able to tell 'em stories about

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every turn in the trail.

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Yeah. So Montana is really important

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for wilderness, I would say.

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This is where wilderness started, the idea of having,

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having land set aside, in perpetuity for, people

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to enjoy without having, you know, being afraid

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of development, having, roads built in

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or houses built in.

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And the Bob Marshall Wilderness that smoke is,

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mainly spend his time in,

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although he did spend a lot of time in other wilderness

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areas too, is kind of where it all got started.

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So in 1964, it was the,

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the year when the Wilderness Act was passed,

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by the US Congress, and it was the first,

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wilderness legislation really in the world.

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Um, it kind of spread, from there.

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Um, not only, in the us lots

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of wilderness areas were added to,

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to the Wilderness Act over the years,

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but also, across the world.

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And so what is really fascinating,

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for the wilderness movement here is it's,

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it's really a movement that means it's not top down.

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Decided somewhere in Washington DC a couple people came

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together and thought, let's go hunting in that area.

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It was really, more and more just people.

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And the first citizen initiated wilderness actually in the

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world also, was, right here in Montana.

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That's the scapegoat wilderness that,

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that smoke just talked about.

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And he testified for,

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and that was really a movement by the people

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that lived in that area.

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So they came together and said, we want this particular,

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area that we live in, that we hunt in, that we recreate in,

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but that we love, and it's part of our life,

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and livelihood to be protected forever.

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So our grandkids and great-grandkids can be in there.

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And, eventually they succeeded.

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They added it to the Wilderness Act,

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and it's protected today.

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And it was inspiring,

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and I think it's still inspiring for a lot of people.

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So not really a top down. It is really fascinating.

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That's, that it is still today a bottom up process.

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And smoke does it today the same way he did,

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50 years ago.

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You know, he stands up for, for places and talks to people

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and builds coalitions.

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So these wild places stay wild.

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And that's for me now that question.

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Um, so I think he,

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his legacy is in a lot of different areas

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because he's in so many areas, he's so active.

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But of course, he's, in, in packing horse

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and mule packing and outfitting.

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But first and foremost, I think in conservation

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and that you need to stand up every single day to,

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keep those places wild.

10:55.695 --> 10:57.675
And it doesn't stop. You know, it's not

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that you testify once and then you can lay on your couch

11:01.095 --> 11:03.115
and be like, fine for the rest of your life.

11:03.115 --> 11:07.155
No, it's every single day, and it never really ends

11:07.155 --> 11:10.595
because the pressures, that we face today in particular

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with climate change, but also with more mining

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and more, you know, wildfires

11:16.315 --> 11:17.635
and the idea of like, we need

11:17.635 --> 11:18.755
to maybe cut down the timber

11:18.855 --> 11:20.275
and don't leave these places wild.

11:20.295 --> 11:21.555
And what does wild actually mean?

11:22.015 --> 11:23.715
All of these discussions are still going.

11:24.055 --> 11:26.475
And I think, he's known

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and will be known forever for that, just tirelessly

11:30.555 --> 11:32.155
standing up for keeping it wild.

11:32.455 --> 11:33.795
That's a tough question. Mm-Hmm.

11:34.375 --> 11:37.795
Uh, I would just like to see

11:38.535 --> 11:42.935
my legacy be the wilderness itself, that people can

11:43.475 --> 11:47.055
now come and enjoy it and find out what it's all about.

11:47.535 --> 11:48.775
I think that's the important thing.

11:49.055 --> 11:52.135
I guess that's, that's my legacy, is to have the wilderness

11:52.715 --> 11:54.045
remain for perpetuity

11:54.825 --> 11:59.365
and, where people can actually come and, and relax

11:59.545 --> 12:01.845
and understand the wilderness itself.

12:02.515 --> 12:05.485
Yeah. I remember sometimes, sometimes he says, also

12:05.485 --> 12:07.005
that it's for the sanity Yeah.

12:07.185 --> 12:08.565
Of man. And I think that's an

12:08.565 --> 12:09.925
important, you know, of all people.

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I think it's really a time where we love our phones

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and computers and we're so quick

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and, you know, doing one interview

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after another, it's like this moment

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of like leaving your watch at the Trailhead

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and, and your phone.

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I take all the phones off my students when I go in,

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and just let that go.

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You know, like just, you know, let the, let it go.

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Like ride a horse. Like let that go like that.

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You, you know, not being in control all the time

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and just like seeing around you and really experiencing it.

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And I think everybody's better for that afterwards.

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Yeah. I think, I think, wilderness,

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in my opinion, you know, isn't the coal or the oil

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or the timber or the game, the, the big elk

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and the big deer that you can get out of there

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and all, all that, the fresh water and everything else,

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but it's actually, it, it's a place

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where man can find sanity in his own self

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and learn to trust himself to go into this kind of country.

13:07.425 --> 13:08.805
Um, I hope that,

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everybody feels like they have their place in,

13:11.625 --> 13:14.005
in wilderness, that it doesn't only belong to the people

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that maybe go into it every day

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or have a so lucky to live right next to it,

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but it belongs to all of us.

13:20.805 --> 13:21.805
Right. So I hope that,

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that people even far away maybe wanna come and visit,

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but even if they can't, they can read the book and come and,

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and visit in a way that's,

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and kind of see how, how important it's, I also want people

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to take away that wilderness is not a place free of humans.

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You know, we have been around for that.

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Um, indigenous people have been

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around in these places forever,

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and they, lived in it, that thrived in it.

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Um, and, we can still do today.

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And we don't have to destroy it in the process.

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Like it doesn't only, we, we don't only have to thrive just

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by default, by, you know, taking the timber out

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or taking the oil out.

13:55.385 --> 13:57.525
We can also just thrive with just sitting by a tree

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and be having it quiet and just taking it in.

14:00.365 --> 14:03.405
And maybe that's actually more, more profit than any,

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any money can ever make.

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Well, I, I hope that they, they understand that,

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that they can follow me through the wilderness,

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through the Bob Marshall, through a lot

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of other wilderness areas such as the Gila and,

14:17.305 --> 14:19.245
and the Grand Canyon and so forth,

14:19.625 --> 14:23.245
and get a sense of understanding what

14:23.245 --> 14:24.645
that wilderness really is.

14:25.105 --> 14:28.885
And that it lets them slow down from a million miles an

14:28.885 --> 14:31.805
hour, which is everyday life, down

14:31.825 --> 14:34.045
to three mile an hour, the speed of a horse.

14:34.585 --> 14:36.965
And they can see it five feet above the ground

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and let the horse do the walking.

Discovering Wilderness Through Oral History

00:00:00 - I got a job here at the University of Montana in Missoula teaching political science. And actually before I even started working here, I signed up for smoke's, horse and meal packing class. So he's pretty well known in the horse and mountain world, for being the guide you need to learn from if you really wanna know how to pack your gear on a horse and a mule. And so I came down to his barn. It's a pretty old barn. and it reminded me right away of my, my barn at home that I grew up in, in Germany, has old rocks and it's, from the outside, pretty thick walls
00:00:33 - Anyway, so I was pretty intrigued. And, smoke is really good at teaching. in one of his secrets is to do that with stories. So he shows you how to do a knot or how to, put on a saddle or something. And then he's, he's telling you about one of his adventures in the Bob Marshall, and I was so mesmerized by that, that I just knew I had to record or do something with it. And it took me a little bit. He's quite lar Lou's quite large, pretty impressive guy. So I was just like, no, I don't know this random German does she,
00:01:04 - And, so it took me a little bit and then I asked him, and he was, so open and, and, really like, said, sure, you know, let's start a conversation. Anyway, so we started recording his oral history and that eventually then morphed into a book that overall, that took over seven years. I started out with the oral history interviews. I would not say they're a classic interview, so not what I did for my PhD. It was really more me sitting here in the barn with my recording stuff and just telling him, well, you tell me your story, whatever you wanna talk about. So I didn't even go in a chronological order.
00:01:38 - to speak up, whatever came to his mind. And so that's what we did evening after evening. And I got so curious. There were so many stories in there that I had no idea about. I mean, I just moved to Montana. I've been here a couple times before, but I've never really, I didn't really know much about anything. there he is. and, and so I went into the archives and kind of filled those, filled those holes. Hi, smoke. Come on in. Yep. that looks great.
00:02:10 - Yeah. And so there were some stories, for example, about a wildfire, the Canyon Creek Fire that I really didn't know much about. So I went into archives and I'm really lucky that I have the university right here that has an extensive archive about, wilderness and wild places and legislation and history. And so I just spend a ton of time there and being political with a PhD, I love archives. So I had a pretty good time going back and forth. Well, I got into it because I saw some guys doing it,
00:02:40 - And I, I, actually worked for the Forest Service for a, a couple of years and then worked for an outfitter for seven years. So that's how I got into the business. I bought an outfit then and started in, been doing it ever since. Well, we're a master of many trades. Mm-Hmm. And that's because we, we never, we don't really master anything. We're a little bit a veterinarian. We're a little bit a horse breaker. we're a little bit, I know a little bit about Canvas. We know a little bit about tents. We know a lot about ropes

Interpreting Wilderness Through Packing and Teaching

00:03:12 - And, and above all, we have the appreciation and the ability to convert and interpret the country to the guests. So when they come, they're kind of un they don't know what's going on. And, and my, my job is to slow 'em down the three mile an hour, the speed of a horse, and then interpret what they're seeing so that they understand what they're seeing. She was one of my students in the, in my packing class. And, and, so we just started teaching.
00:03:44 - started loading the mules and the horses in there, she really shined in because she wanted to do it and knew how a little bit about how to do it. And boy, she, she wanted to learn everything there was to know about packing an animal and getting your equipment into the hills. Yeah, it's may almost, I feel like smoke is probably the one to talk about that. But, we, the goal was for this book really, and it came together after a while that we wanted to take people on a pack trip that
00:04:15 - So people from London who might never come, or maybe they weren't to come to the Bob Marshall, but you know, who would come up with the idea to ride on a horse. And, and smoke did that for so many years that he took people really from all, walks of life, from everywhere around the world into the wilderness. Some of them never been on a horse, and they spent five or six days in there and, really experienced and learned about it and eventually wanted to protect it. So, the book was really the idea to do do exactly that.
00:04:47 - And I never rode together. Like we never actually went into the mountains together. Unfortunately, we never rode a horse together, but I always say I traveled every single corner of the Bob Marshall with him. Right. And so, in a way, I wanted to translate that for everybody. And I think we, we were able to do that. You can really pick up this book and read, about a Pac trip in, in the winter when it's snowing. You can read it about it in the summer. You know, you see what, what, you know, experience with how smoke felt when he saw the grizzly wear come towards him
00:05:19 - and also, how it, the trade of an outfitter really worked. Like, what kind of, unique qualities you need to have think smoke was talking about. that there are so many traits you have to learn, but I think one thing you can't really learn and you have it or you don't, is the people skills. You know, to be able to sit around the campfire and, and, and learn from people. It doesn't matter if they're from down the street here in Montana and then know the woods, or from London
00:05:48 - and you, you are able not only to make them feel at home, but also to teach them something about, about the country. And I hope that the book does that. Sure. The first thing we wanna do is, the, you need to learn how to pull a rope and never push a rope. You can't push a rope anywhere. You can't push a chain anywhere. You see, you have to pull, always pull. So when you're tying a knot, you always pull. You never push. And if you pull

Saddle Fitting and Wilderness Advocacy

00:06:20 - to untie it very easily. So, that's what we, we do. And I just, tell 'em a story about, Hey, when you put a saddle on, remember it's gotta fit. It's gotta fit the animal. So you gotta make sure that the saddle fits and fits correctly. And then when you go to get on the saddle yourself, you need to make sure it's fitting. You, your stirs are right and everything is just right. It, the cinch is tight enough.
00:06:50 - or 18 strand, a moha cinch. A lot of people are using these new nylon and rubber cinch. I don't care for those. 'cause I want a cinch that that doesn't soar the horse. And I can go on and on about that. Well, I, the thing I did, I, I was surprised when I testified before the Scapegoat Wilderness area, I was surprised because of the old gentleman that I worked for as an, as a packer.
00:07:19 - they took me to, to a hearing, and he didn't even tell me. He had signed me up to speak, and I didn't know that. And all of a sudden, a senator says, okay, next is smoke. Well, that surprised me, first of all. And I about sat down right there, but then eventually I, I had an opportunity to testify before, a committee on the Lincoln Scapegoat Wilderness,
00:07:51 - where we can take people and interpret what they're seeing. You know, I can go along a trail and I can pick out a flower that's only two or three inches high and identify it. And pretty soon I have people that are running big corporations and everything else, they're jumping off of their horse and taking a look at this flower laying on their belly in the pine needles. But, that's, that's what we try to do. And I, the book is set up so that I was hoping that, that
00:08:23 - and follow me and cannonball through the back country. And then I was able to tell 'em stories about every turn in the trail. Yeah. So Montana is really important for wilderness, I would say. This is where wilderness started, the idea of having, having land set aside, in perpetuity for, people to enjoy without having, you know, being afraid of development, having, roads built in or houses built in. And the Bob Marshall Wilderness that smoke is,
00:08:52 - although he did spend a lot of time in other wilderness areas too, is kind of where it all got started. So in 1964, it was the, the year when the Wilderness Act was passed, by the US Congress, and it was the first, wilderness legislation really in the world. it kind of spread, from there. not only, in the us lots of wilderness areas were added to, to the Wilderness Act over the years, but also, across the world. And so what is really fascinating,

Grassroots Conservation: Protecting Wilderness Together

00:09:26 - it's really a movement that means it's not top down. Decided somewhere in Washington DC a couple people came together and thought, let's go hunting in that area. It was really, more and more just people. And the first citizen initiated wilderness actually in the world also, was, right here in Montana. That's the scapegoat wilderness that, that smoke just talked about. And he testified for, and that was really a movement by the people that lived in that area. So they came together and said, we want this particular,
00:09:59 - but that we love, and it's part of our life, and livelihood to be protected forever. So our grandkids and great-grandkids can be in there. And, eventually they succeeded. They added it to the Wilderness Act, and it's protected today. And it was inspiring, and I think it's still inspiring for a lot of people. So not really a top down. It is really fascinating. That's, that it is still today a bottom up process. And smoke does it today the same way he did, 50 years ago. You know, he stands up for, for places and talks to people
00:10:30 - So these wild places stay wild. And that's for me now that question. so I think he, his legacy is in a lot of different areas because he's in so many areas, he's so active. But of course, he's, in, in packing horse and mule packing and outfitting. But first and foremost, I think in conservation and that you need to stand up every single day to, keep those places wild. And it doesn't stop. You know, it's not that you testify once and then you can lay on your couch
00:11:03 - No, it's every single day, and it never really ends because the pressures, that we face today in particular with climate change, but also with more mining and more, you know, wildfires and the idea of like, we need to maybe cut down the timber and don't leave these places wild. And what does wild actually mean? All of these discussions are still going. And I think, he's known and will be known forever for that, just tirelessly standing up for keeping it wild.
00:11:34 - I would just like to see my legacy be the wilderness itself, that people can now come and enjoy it and find out what it's all about. I think that's the important thing. I guess that's, that's my legacy, is to have the wilderness remain for perpetuity and, where people can actually come and, and relax and understand the wilderness itself.
00:12:05 - that it's for the sanity Yeah. Of man. And I think that's an important, you know, of all people. I think it's really a time where we love our phones and computers and we're so quick and, you know, doing one interview after another, it's like this moment of like leaving your watch at the Trailhead and, and your phone. I take all the phones off my students when I go in, and just let that go. You know, like just, you know, let the, let it go. Like ride a horse. Like let that go like that.

Wilderness: A Sanctuary for the Soul

00:12:35 - and just like seeing around you and really experiencing it. And I think everybody's better for that afterwards. Yeah. I think, I think, wilderness, in my opinion, you know, isn't the coal or the oil or the timber or the game, the, the big elk and the big deer that you can get out of there and all, all that, the fresh water and everything else, but it's actually, it, it's a place where man can find sanity in his own self
00:13:07 - I hope that, everybody feels like they have their place in, in wilderness, that it doesn't only belong to the people that maybe go into it every day or have a so lucky to live right next to it, but it belongs to all of us. Right. So I hope that, that people even far away maybe wanna come and visit, but even if they can't, they can read the book and come and, and visit in a way that's, and kind of see how, how important it's, I also want people
00:13:36 - You know, we have been around for that. indigenous people have been around in these places forever, and they, lived in it, that thrived in it. and, we can still do today. And we don't have to destroy it in the process. Like it doesn't only, we, we don't only have to thrive just by default, by, you know, taking the timber out or taking the oil out. We can also just thrive with just sitting by a tree and be having it quiet and just taking it in. And maybe that's actually more, more profit than any,
00:14:05 - Well, I, I hope that they, they understand that, that they can follow me through the wilderness, through the Bob Marshall, through a lot of other wilderness areas such as the Gila and, and the Grand Canyon and so forth, and get a sense of understanding what that wilderness really is. And that it lets them slow down from a million miles an hour, which is everyday life, down to three mile an hour, the speed of a horse.
00:14:37 - and let the horse do the walking.

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