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Del Dickson examines the most important arguments for and against democracy, and explores the life cycle of democracies – how countries democratize, mature, and fail.

Image courtesy of interviewee. March 26, 2024

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This video video is a detailed discourse on democracy, its challenges, and the distinctions between various forms of democratic governance. The speaker emphasizes the crucial role of democracy in the United States and critiques the insufficient education on government and democracy in schools, noting that students often enter college with a vague understanding of these concepts.

Key points discussed are:

1. **Understanding Democracy**: The speaker expresses concern that high school education fails to adequately teach democracy, resulting in college students lacking a solid foundation in democratic theory and practice.

2. **Liberty vs. Freedom**: The speaker defines liberty as the right to be left alone, whereas freedom encompasses the right to participate in political processes. This video video distinction helps frame the discussion on different democratic societies, such as liberal versus participatory democracies.

3. **Historical Context**: The speaker contrasts ancient Athenian democracy, with its direct citizen involvement, to modern liberal democracy in the U.S., characterized by representative government and elections.

4. **Civic Engagement**: The importance of civic duties and engagement beyond voting is underscored, with references to America's casual attitudes toward civic responsibilities like jury duty.

5. **The Role of Rights**: The speaker discusses theories of rights, contrasting natural rights, which are seen as universal and God-given, with positive rights that are granted by governments. This video video leads to discussions on how these beliefs shape different societies' approaches to rights and responsibilities.

6. **Critiques of Democracy**: The speaker presents arguments against democracy, such as elite rule potentially being more effective, the amateurish nature of democratic governance, and the risks of tyranny of the majority. These critiques provide a nuanced view of democracy's strengths and weaknesses.

7. **Democratic Instability**: Issues such as elite governance potentially being more stable and effective in the long term, while democracies tend to be more volatile and susceptible to the whims of public opinion, are also highlighted.

8. **Global Perspectives**: The speaker stresses the importance of understanding different democratic models throughout history and across cultures, advocating for a more global perspective on democracy in American education.

9. **Internal Threats to Democracy**: This video video warns of internal issues, such as political polarization and potential authoritarianism arising from within democracies, which could undermine their stability.

10. **Future Outlook**: The speaker expresses hope for emerging democracies in various parts of the world, emphasizing the potential for places like China or Iran to transition to democratic governance as their middle classes grow.

Overall, the speaker encourages a critical re-evaluation of democratic ideals and practices in the U.S., stressing the need for ongoing engagement, education, and readiness to learn from diverse global democratic experiences. The conclusion underscores the importance of recognizing the evolving nature of democracy and the role of citizens in shaping their governance.

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Let me answer it this way.

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I mean, first I can't imagine any political topic more

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important than democracy or interesting.

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Uh, and, and second, in the United States,

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I'm not sure we've ever done a great job

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of teaching government,

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let alone democracy in high school.

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But, over the last 30 years,

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things have only gotten worse.

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And, and so teaching college to, to freshmen

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and sophomores, in my Intro to Politics class, I just,

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way too many students come into college

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with just the most vague idea of what democracy is.

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Uh, they know that the US is a democracy,

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and it's probably the only kind of democracy they know,

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but they really don't know the theory

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or the practice of democracy.

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They can't put American democracy into any kind

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of historical or comparative context.

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And, and third high school civics books are just so boring.

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Uh, so, so my hope was to write just a straightforward,

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informative, useful,

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and hopefully interesting overview

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of democratic governments.

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Uh, I focus mostly on the us

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but I try to use a critical eye on American, democracy,

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and I try to place it into a constellation

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of different types of democracies,

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historical and contemporary.

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And, and finally, I, I just wanted a book

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that I might've actually read as an undergraduate.

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So I, I like cartoons, for example.

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So there are cartoons in the book.

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Uh, there's a lot of information packed in there,

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but if you know me, I'm kind of sarcastic

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and maybe a little bit random in nature.

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And there's that in the book too.

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So I've had students say that reading the book

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that it sounds exactly like me,

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and I just hope they mean that as a compliment.

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Book starts out just making a basic distinction.

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I, I actually have seven pillars

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or seven dimensions of democracy.

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But the most important two, I think are, are the difference

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between liberty and freedom.

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So you ask an American to define liberty,

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and they can give you a pretty good

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definition of what liberty is.

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You ask an American to define freedom,

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and they'll give you a pretty good

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definition of what liberty is.

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We, we tend to conflate those two terms to us.

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They mean the same thing, and they really don't, and,

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and they help to unlock what democracy can be.

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Uh, so these two main dimensions, liberty is the right

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to be left alone, the right to think what you want,

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to speak what you want, without government interference

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or interference by any anybody else.

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Freedom is the the right to participate in politics.

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So liberty is individualism.

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It's the right to be left alone.

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Freedom is the right to get together with other people

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and participate in politics to decide what we're going to do

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and how we're going to do it.

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And if you value liberty, it's going

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To lead you in one direction toward liberal democracy.

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And if you value freedom,

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it will lead you in another direction, toward another kind

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of democracy that we would call free or participatory,

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or direct democracy.

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And those two are very different kinds of societies.

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Uh, you asked me about free democracy.

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That's, think Athens In Athens,

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every citizen, every male citizen was a legislator.

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They didn't have representatives. Politics was a team sport.

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Everybody went to the assembly.

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Everybody voted on the issues of the day.

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And that's how the Athenians decided what they were going

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to do, to Americanize.

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We have elements of that in,

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in our democracy, but there aren't many.

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Uh, we have a liberal democracy.

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We tend to emphasize representative government.

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Uh, our representatives have freedom.

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They're the ones who get together

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and decide what to do on our behalf.

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Uh, we have freedom on one day,

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and that's election day when we choose our representatives.

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Uh, but there are elements

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of free democracy in American liberal democracy, too.

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Um, one of the inheritors of,

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of the Athenian demo Democratic ideal was,

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the townships in colonial New England.

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And, and in the townships, again,

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local citizens all gathered together.

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They all made their decisions collectively.

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Uh, they had representatives who, who did a lot of the work,

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but they were administrators.

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They weren't deciders the way that our democracy functions.

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Uh, we have one important element

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of free democracy in our country,

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and that's the jury system.

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Uh, 12 people go in and decide guilt

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or innocence, responsibility

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or not responsible in civil actions.

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Uh, and we kind of don't appreciate it.

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I think the way that we should, the townships disappeared,

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relatively quickly after the revolution

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and our jury system that we ought to embrace and love.

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It's, it's one of our national sports, how

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to get out of jury duty.

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So Americans are, are, again, much more committed

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to liberty than we are to freedom.

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In part, it depends on where you stand on,

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where rights come from.

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The two main theories of where rights come from

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are they come from a higher power.

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They come from God.

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Uh, this is natural right theory,

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that God endows us simply

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because we were born human with certain rights

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and maybe responsibilities.

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Um, there's a variation of that.

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Uh, Thomas Hobbes, for example, believed in natural rights,

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but he was not big on God.

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So he just thought it was nature.

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It was like Darwinian, that human beings are born

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with certain rights, as individuals

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to do what we want to do.

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If you believe in natural rights,

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and most Americans, at some level do,

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that it's the spirit of the Declaration of Independence,

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that we are endowed by our creator with inalienable rights,

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then you tend to believe those rights are universal

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because God loves us all equally.

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Uh, so, that would tend to lead you to believe that

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that rights are universal.

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The other theory of rights is positive rights.

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Positive rights basically says that,

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our rights are gifts to

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that human beings give each other it, it's what we recognize

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and, and endow each other with.

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So there's no higher power giving us those rights.

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We, we give them to ourselves,

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or maybe our rulers give them to us, kind

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of top down rights.

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If you believe in positive rights.

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And, and I think most people outside of the US tend

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to believe in the positivist theory of rights.

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Uh, then you tend not to believe that

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that rights are universal.

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They're just, they're tied to one individual society,

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but don't necessarily transfer to another society.

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Uh, and because Americans tend to think of rights

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as universal, i, it, it's inspirational in a way who,

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who doesn't like the rights of life, liberty,

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and the pursuit of happiness.

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But that assumption that rights are universal can lead us

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into trouble too, because we assume

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that all cultures will accept our rights

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as the correct rights.

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And it turns out that isn't necessarily true.

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And sometimes it does get us into trouble, rights

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and duties, again,

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because we in America tend to emphasize liberal democracy

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and liberty right to be left alone,

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we tend to deemphasize, we tend to resist duties.

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Rights are, are what the government

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or what other people owe to us.

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Duties are what we owe to the government or to society,

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or to our neighbors.

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And all societies are a balance of rights and duties,

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but Americans don't like the duty part.

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And, we, we have very few

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government duties that we have to follow.

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We have to pay our taxes.

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Uh, we're supposed to do jury duty when we're called.

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Uh, men have to register for the draft.

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And that's basically it.

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That's, that's all of the requirements that, that we have.

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Uh, other societies are much more sanguine in,

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in terms of, of duties.

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Um, social democracies tend to emphasize more duties,

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more responsibilities that individuals owe to society.

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Uh, for Americans, the, the, the quote that I can think

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of the spirit of, of balancing liberties and,

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and duties, rights

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and duties, is John Fitzgerald Kennedy, who, who said,

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we should ask, not what our country can do for us,

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but what we can do for our country that is trying

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to balance this idea of, of rights against the government

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and duties from the government.

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Um, and, and, and I think that

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that is a good way to think about it.

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But there are a lot of people, especially a lot

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of Americans, who think that Kennedy had it wrong,

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free democracy or participatory democracy.

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Uh, it, it just means that we're responsible

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for our own lives and our social lives.

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We are supposed to get together

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and make these decisions ourselves,

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rather than have elective

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or a point of, representatives do that for us.

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So if you think free democracy, again, think Athens,

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think the colonial townships, the way

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to think about it is who's responsible for

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what our society does?

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Is it are our representatives?

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Do we just kind of trust them to do

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what we think they ought to do?

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Well, in a liberal democracy, that's what you do.

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And if they're wrong, we wait two or four or six years

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and vote them out of office.

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But it's really up to them to figure out what to do

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and how to do it in a participatory or free democracy.

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Everybody makes that decision there.

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There aren't so many representatives.

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The government is the people, rather than, than

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for the people from a free democracy point of view.

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Uh, the Athenians, for example, would look at America not

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as a democracy, but as an aristocracy.

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And there reasoning was that if you have elections,

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and this was 2000 years ago, remember, they knew

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that if you had elections, it took a lot of money to run

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for office and to become popular.

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And so they knew that if you had an electoral system,

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only rich people or people who were sponsored

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by rich people are going to be elected.

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And, and so that's why they would think

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of American democracy as,

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as being aristocratic rather than democratic.

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Uh, now, the, the other interesting thing I think is

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that the Athenians had a word for people

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who weren't interested in politics

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and who weren't interested in participating in politics.

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And, and that word was idiotes.

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And that, of course, is where we get our term idiot.

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Uh, we think of it in the idiot as being somebody stupid.

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The Greeks, originated the word to describe somebody

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who wasn't interested in politics.

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Um, parles in his, in his funeral oration, said that,

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the Athenians loved their freedom more than liberty.

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And that they saw people who, who sought to be private as,

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as not respectable,

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but useless if you try to withdraw into your own life

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and disregard what everybody else is doing,

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that makes you an unproductive citizen and, and useless.

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So I think, that is, that's the difference in a nutshell

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between liberal democracy and free democracy.

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There are a lot of problems with democracy.

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And, and in my book, I, I have a chapter on, on the problems

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with democracy, the Case against Democracy.

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And, I, I just wanna be clear that in this chapter,

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I'm not laying out my personal views necessarily.

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I'm, I'm being a lawyer

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and laying out a, a lawyer's case against democracy.

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That said, I, I think a lot

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of these criticisms are, are absolutely true.

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I I don't think that they're fatal,

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and I certainly, they don't change my mind about democracy,

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but you have to take the bad with the good.

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And, and this is the bad. These are some of the problems.

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Uh, first, maybe elite rule is better.

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Uh, elites, you know, people

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who are professional politicians, people

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who are aristocrats

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or aristocracy just means rule by the betters.

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That's really all it means. And there are virtues to that.

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People who are educated, people who were born to lead.

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Uh, there are advantages in having

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people like that in charge.

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Aristocrats tend to take the long view.

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They tend to think not in terms of just the next election,

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which is how democracies tend to work.

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Uh, the long view is how long until the next election.

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Aristocrats tend to think generationally.

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They tend to think in, in terms of 20 years, 40 years,

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50 years, a hundred years down the road.

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And their advantages to that.

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Uh, and aristocracy tends to be much more reliable.

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People stay in power longer.

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Uh, they become reliable partners.

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You know, what you're getting.

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Uh, when you have a relationship with an authoritarian

285
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or with an aristocratic society

286
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because they've been around a long time,

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you know they're going to be there a long time.

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They, they make more reliable partners than democracies,

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which are notoriously unreliable as,

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as international partners,

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because we change our minds all the time.

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Uh, elite governments also tend

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to be better at economic development.

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Uh, and so especially for kind of poor

295
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or developing coun, countries, having a elite view has,

296
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has some economic advantages

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because again, they tend to focus on these kinds of issues,

298
00:14:14.355 --> 00:14:16.455
then flipping that coin over.

299
00:14:16.515 --> 00:14:19.215
So second, what are the weaknesses of democracy?

300
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Um, and that is kind of, I always think of democracy

301
00:14:24.675 --> 00:14:26.455
as being run by amateurs.

302
00:14:26.675 --> 00:14:30.415
Uh, demos are the people. Democracy is ruled by the people.

303
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Uh, there's a saying in politics

304
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and democratic politics in particular, that,

305
00:14:36.055 --> 00:14:39.815
that America's run by sea students, America's run

306
00:14:39.835 --> 00:14:40.975
by mediocre people.

307
00:14:41.555 --> 00:14:44.175
And that is for some a problem.

308
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Uh, democratic leaders tend

309
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to be very shortsighted.

310
00:14:50.585 --> 00:14:53.085
They tend to focus on their popularity.

311
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Um, there, we don't necessarily elect the best people

312
00:14:58.745 --> 00:15:02.365
for office, for example, I'm kind of the rule

313
00:15:02.365 --> 00:15:05.085
of thumb in American elections, who will win?

314
00:15:05.465 --> 00:15:06.925
Number one, who's taller?

315
00:15:07.185 --> 00:15:10.285
Number two, who would more people like

316
00:15:10.285 --> 00:15:11.325
to go have a beer with?

317
00:15:12.885 --> 00:15:15.155
Those may not be the two best criteria

318
00:15:15.215 --> 00:15:16.235
to select our leaders.

319
00:15:16.575 --> 00:15:19.315
So we don't necessarily select our best leaders.

320
00:15:20.095 --> 00:15:24.195
Uh, democratic laws, aristocratic laws tend to be stable.

321
00:15:24.195 --> 00:15:26.195
They tend to be focused. They know what they want.

322
00:15:26.425 --> 00:15:27.835
They know how to get it.

323
00:15:28.465 --> 00:15:30.475
Democracies, we don't know what we want.

324
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We change our minds all the time.

325
00:15:32.615 --> 00:15:35.715
And so laws tend to be unstable as well.

326
00:15:36.335 --> 00:15:39.835
Um, I think maybe the most serious problem,

327
00:15:40.015 --> 00:15:42.515
the most serious weakness of most democracies,

328
00:15:42.515 --> 00:15:46.395
especially free democracies, is tyranny of the majority.

329
00:15:47.265 --> 00:15:49.485
Uh, there, there there's no power

330
00:15:50.915 --> 00:15:53.605
more oppressive than tyranny of the majority,

331
00:15:53.605 --> 00:15:56.005
because who can check the power of the majority?

332
00:15:56.105 --> 00:15:57.645
Who can check the power of the many?

333
00:15:57.935 --> 00:16:00.245
There aren't any natural checks on that.

334
00:16:01.065 --> 00:16:04.845
Um, emergencies, democracies tend

335
00:16:05.985 --> 00:16:08.405
to be slow to react to emergencies,

336
00:16:08.405 --> 00:16:11.525
because in a real democracy, you have to consult with people

337
00:16:11.905 --> 00:16:14.365
before you decide what to do,

338
00:16:14.425 --> 00:16:16.445
and that that can lead to problems.

339
00:16:16.855 --> 00:16:19.405
There, there, there is another argument to that,

340
00:16:19.405 --> 00:16:21.725
and we might get to it later,

341
00:16:21.785 --> 00:16:23.725
but a lot of people think democracies are

342
00:16:23.925 --> 00:16:25.045
poor in emergencies.

343
00:16:25.665 --> 00:16:28.235
And, and finally,

344
00:16:29.945 --> 00:16:32.115
Karl Marx, for example, and,

345
00:16:32.115 --> 00:16:34.515
and there are others, Gaana Mosca, for example,

346
00:16:34.535 --> 00:16:37.235
the Italian theorist, they just argue

347
00:16:37.235 --> 00:16:39.995
that democracies are illusions that,

348
00:16:39.995 --> 00:16:42.475
that there are no real democracies, that,

349
00:16:42.865 --> 00:16:45.355
that all governments are run by an elite,

350
00:16:45.855 --> 00:16:47.715
and democracies are just kind

351
00:16:47.715 --> 00:16:49.675
of re fooling ourselves into thinking

352
00:16:49.865 --> 00:16:51.155
that the people have power.

353
00:16:51.615 --> 00:16:54.835
Uh, and, and that can be a problem with democracy too,

354
00:16:54.835 --> 00:16:56.475
that it's not real, that it's an illusion.

355
00:16:56.935 --> 00:16:58.035
The real problem, I think,

356
00:16:58.035 --> 00:17:02.115
with democracy on a practical level is, is that there tends

357
00:17:02.115 --> 00:17:04.275
to be a disconnect in liberal democracy

358
00:17:04.425 --> 00:17:06.475
between the people and their leaders.

359
00:17:06.615 --> 00:17:09.035
And, and that causes a lot of problems.

360
00:17:09.165 --> 00:17:11.875
Chief among which I think is, is kind

361
00:17:11.875 --> 00:17:14.995
of creeping authoritarianism leaders tend

362
00:17:14.995 --> 00:17:16.315
to stay in power a long time.

363
00:17:16.935 --> 00:17:20.115
Uh, they tend to kind of stop listening to people and, and,

364
00:17:20.495 --> 00:17:22.635
and doing what they want to do.

365
00:17:23.295 --> 00:17:25.475
And, and that can lead to problems too.

366
00:17:25.775 --> 00:17:28.915
So there, there's a certain instability there,

367
00:17:28.915 --> 00:17:31.715
and there's a third certain kind of creeping

368
00:17:31.735 --> 00:17:35.595
of authoritarianism that, that always be Devils democracies.

369
00:17:36.185 --> 00:17:37.675
I'll answer that in the reverse order.

370
00:17:38.155 --> 00:17:41.355
I, there, there are a lot of people in political science,

371
00:17:41.575 --> 00:17:45.235
maybe the best minds of 20th century political science,

372
00:17:45.975 --> 00:17:48.315
who argue the poor countries really cannot

373
00:17:48.335 --> 00:17:49.605
become democracies.

374
00:17:49.985 --> 00:17:52.045
Uh, Hannah Orent, who for my money,

375
00:17:52.105 --> 00:17:54.205
is the most important political thinker of,

376
00:17:54.345 --> 00:17:56.325
of the 20th century, if not longer,

377
00:17:57.025 --> 00:18:00.245
and Samuel Huntington, who is one of the American gods

378
00:18:00.245 --> 00:18:03.005
of political science, both argue that,

379
00:18:03.005 --> 00:18:07.245
that democracy is really a luxury of a middle class country,

380
00:18:07.645 --> 00:18:09.405
a relatively well-developed country.

381
00:18:10.385 --> 00:18:13.445
And they have a lot of data to back up that argument,

382
00:18:13.445 --> 00:18:15.205
because there are a lot of failed

383
00:18:15.305 --> 00:18:19.005
or struggling democracies that are also poor in the world.

384
00:18:19.425 --> 00:18:23.085
And, and they, they seem to have a lot of trouble kind

385
00:18:23.085 --> 00:18:26.285
of solidifying and institutionalizing their democracies.

386
00:18:26.985 --> 00:18:30.485
So there is, I think, something to be said for that theory.

387
00:18:31.025 --> 00:18:33.885
Uh, that said, I, I think that you can exaggerate it.

388
00:18:34.225 --> 00:18:37.005
Uh, poor countries certainly can become democratic.

389
00:18:37.115 --> 00:18:40.725
They may have more struggles to overcome in doing so.

390
00:18:41.265 --> 00:18:44.125
Uh, Athens, for example, that had the greatest

391
00:18:44.715 --> 00:18:46.045
free democracy in the world.

392
00:18:46.225 --> 00:18:49.845
Its classical democracy was a very poor country.

393
00:18:50.385 --> 00:18:53.045
Uh, colonial America was a poor country.

394
00:18:53.905 --> 00:18:56.885
We just were dedicated to democratic ideals

395
00:18:56.885 --> 00:18:58.525
and dedicated to making it work.

396
00:18:59.425 --> 00:19:01.125
And it, it did work.

397
00:19:01.705 --> 00:19:06.045
So is it common for poor countries to become democratic?

398
00:19:06.235 --> 00:19:07.965
Well, they have, I think, extra barriers

399
00:19:08.115 --> 00:19:09.365
that they have to overcome.

400
00:19:09.985 --> 00:19:11.925
Uh, but it is possible and,

401
00:19:12.025 --> 00:19:15.335
and it certainly is worth, worth sticking with.

402
00:19:15.365 --> 00:19:16.455
It's certainly worth trying.

403
00:19:17.405 --> 00:19:21.365
That said, you also ask which countries are more likely

404
00:19:21.365 --> 00:19:22.645
to become democratic.

405
00:19:23.025 --> 00:19:25.965
And, and I think it's absolutely true that you kind

406
00:19:25.965 --> 00:19:29.205
of go up the ladder of economic development a little bit to,

407
00:19:29.465 --> 00:19:32.645
to where Samuel Huntington called the zone of transition,

408
00:19:33.255 --> 00:19:35.565
where transitioning toward a democratic

409
00:19:35.565 --> 00:19:36.725
society becomes easier.

410
00:19:37.465 --> 00:19:39.565
Uh, and that involves a certain amount of wealth,

411
00:19:39.805 --> 00:19:42.925
a certain amount of, economic development.

412
00:19:44.185 --> 00:19:47.805
The key there is, the development of a middle class.

413
00:19:48.825 --> 00:19:53.325
If, if you are very, very poor, you are just concerned

414
00:19:53.325 --> 00:19:56.845
with surviving, and that survival takes up all

415
00:19:56.845 --> 00:19:57.845
of your free time.

416
00:19:58.865 --> 00:20:02.965
As you become more economically well off, you also have more

417
00:20:02.965 --> 00:20:05.845
and more time, to yourself.

418
00:20:06.105 --> 00:20:09.885
And, and Aristotle called these choices that you don't have

419
00:20:09.885 --> 00:20:11.005
to make to survive.

420
00:20:11.265 --> 00:20:12.725
He called them beautiful choices.

421
00:20:13.835 --> 00:20:15.735
And democracy is a beautiful choice.

422
00:20:16.515 --> 00:20:20.575
So as you develop a middle class society, you have people

423
00:20:20.575 --> 00:20:24.095
with a little bit more free time that can decide to become

424
00:20:24.605 --> 00:20:25.975
more politically engaged.

425
00:20:26.835 --> 00:20:28.815
The other reason why a, a,

426
00:20:29.015 --> 00:20:32.135
a somewhat developed country has an advantage in,

427
00:20:32.135 --> 00:20:36.455
in becoming a democracy is that you need a, a,

428
00:20:36.655 --> 00:20:37.975
a countervailing power.

429
00:20:38.625 --> 00:20:40.735
State. Power is, is huge.

430
00:20:40.915 --> 00:20:43.495
Um, states have a monopoly on the

431
00:20:43.495 --> 00:20:44.895
authoritative use of violence.

432
00:20:45.525 --> 00:20:49.245
They're very strong by nature, at least relative

433
00:20:49.245 --> 00:20:50.325
to their populations.

434
00:20:51.675 --> 00:20:55.605
When you develop a middle class, you now have a social unit

435
00:20:55.635 --> 00:20:56.805
that is rich enough

436
00:20:56.985 --> 00:20:58.205
and powerful enough

437
00:20:58.555 --> 00:21:00.805
that they can check the power of the state.

438
00:21:01.675 --> 00:21:05.325
Once you can do that, then democracy in

439
00:21:05.565 --> 00:21:06.885
that state becomes possible.

440
00:21:06.885 --> 00:21:09.885
Otherwise, it's going to probably remain authoritarian.

441
00:21:10.745 --> 00:21:13.445
And, unless somebody tells them no,

442
00:21:13.545 --> 00:21:16.845
and it's usually the middle class that has to tell them no.

443
00:21:17.705 --> 00:21:20.045
So that leads us to which countries will become

444
00:21:20.045 --> 00:21:21.205
more democratic.

445
00:21:21.745 --> 00:21:24.805
If I put money on it, I, I would always look

446
00:21:24.825 --> 00:21:28.765
for those developing countries that had, an emerging

447
00:21:28.985 --> 00:21:30.245
or a strong middle class.

448
00:21:31.185 --> 00:21:33.125
It doesn't mean they're going to become democratic,

449
00:21:33.465 --> 00:21:35.605
but they have a fighting chance if they want to.

450
00:21:36.345 --> 00:21:39.405
So I, the dark horses for me, always,

451
00:21:39.405 --> 00:21:40.965
would be now China.

452
00:21:41.935 --> 00:21:43.965
China in a very short time,

453
00:21:45.205 --> 00:21:48.445
economically developed from being a, a poor country

454
00:21:48.575 --> 00:21:51.805
where millions of people starved to death in the 1960s

455
00:21:52.465 --> 00:21:55.565
to becoming, the second biggest economy in the world.

456
00:21:55.675 --> 00:21:58.765
It's a vibrant economy. It has a growing middle class.

457
00:21:59.515 --> 00:22:01.605
That middle class has the potential

458
00:22:02.915 --> 00:22:04.855
to rerun ti men square

459
00:22:05.155 --> 00:22:07.975
and to say, we, the people deserve power.

460
00:22:08.195 --> 00:22:10.335
Not the, not the Communist Party of China.

461
00:22:11.035 --> 00:22:13.695
Uh, so it, it may be an outside bet,

462
00:22:13.795 --> 00:22:15.895
but China is, is always tempting.

463
00:22:16.355 --> 00:22:18.775
Uh, another outside bet would be Iran.

464
00:22:19.815 --> 00:22:22.875
Uh, Iran is, is a theocratic society.

465
00:22:23.335 --> 00:22:25.675
It, it, it's, it claims to be democratic.

466
00:22:26.015 --> 00:22:29.995
It really, of course is not. But the potential is. There.

467
00:22:30.165 --> 00:22:34.395
Again, Iran has, has a very strong middle class, a highly

468
00:22:34.915 --> 00:22:37.475
educated middle class, which is also important.

469
00:22:38.295 --> 00:22:41.155
And at some point, they are going to get tired

470
00:22:41.255 --> 00:22:43.595
of moles telling them what they can and can't do.

471
00:22:44.095 --> 00:22:48.115
And so someday, I think Iran has, has real possibilities.

472
00:22:48.975 --> 00:22:53.135
Uh, other countries, you know, you are from Venezuela.

473
00:22:53.435 --> 00:22:56.175
Uh, Venezuela went from being kind of a, one

474
00:22:56.175 --> 00:23:00.735
of the bright stars of democracy in South America to being

475
00:23:01.335 --> 00:23:02.695
a basket case democracy.

476
00:23:02.995 --> 00:23:06.975
It, it, it really did well for a while, and then struggled

477
00:23:06.975 --> 00:23:11.095
and fell into this loop of, of kind of vacillating

478
00:23:11.095 --> 00:23:12.735
between tyranny and anarchy.

479
00:23:13.355 --> 00:23:16.175
The rest of South America almost went the other way.

480
00:23:16.675 --> 00:23:21.215
Uh, most of my youth, south America was empty potential.

481
00:23:21.235 --> 00:23:24.015
It, there were democracies there, they were unstable.

482
00:23:24.305 --> 00:23:27.455
There would be coups followed by civilian rule, followed

483
00:23:27.515 --> 00:23:28.535
by military rule.

484
00:23:28.625 --> 00:23:33.025
Again, most of South America worked out their problems,

485
00:23:33.405 --> 00:23:36.225
between the 1960s and the 1980s.

486
00:23:36.765 --> 00:23:39.225
And, you know, that, that is hopeful too.

487
00:23:39.885 --> 00:23:42.425
Uh, the Middle East, I think there are some,

488
00:23:42.425 --> 00:23:45.885
other than Iran, Morocco will be a good case.

489
00:23:46.685 --> 00:23:48.005
Tunisia struggled some,

490
00:23:48.065 --> 00:23:51.205
but of all the Arab countries coming out of the Arab Spring,

491
00:23:51.745 --> 00:23:53.805
they were the ones who, who succeeded.

492
00:23:54.345 --> 00:23:56.125
Uh, Zimbabwe in Africa,

493
00:23:56.185 --> 00:23:59.045
in Sub-Saharan Africa is, is another example.

494
00:23:59.165 --> 00:24:04.005
I think of a democracy that that is emerging, from,

495
00:24:04.035 --> 00:24:07.565
from very troubled times in the, in the seventies, eighties,

496
00:24:08.005 --> 00:24:09.925
nineties, and, and has a chance

497
00:24:09.925 --> 00:24:11.845
of really becoming a vibrant democracy.

498
00:24:12.545 --> 00:24:15.205
So their, their democracy is emerging everywhere.

499
00:24:15.545 --> 00:24:16.645
It, it's kind of messy.

500
00:24:17.105 --> 00:24:19.925
And, and a lot of them kind of move up the ladder

501
00:24:19.945 --> 00:24:23.125
and then drop down two steps forward, one step back.

502
00:24:23.825 --> 00:24:26.245
But the fact that they continue to try, I,

503
00:24:26.365 --> 00:24:28.125
I think it is just so encouraging.

504
00:24:28.125 --> 00:24:29.405
Rather than giving up

505
00:24:29.405 --> 00:24:31.045
and just saying, no, we're going

506
00:24:31.045 --> 00:24:32.725
to just have a dictatorship.

507
00:24:32.745 --> 00:24:34.405
And, and that'll be that way forever.

508
00:24:35.225 --> 00:24:39.205
Uh, the, my wish is, is that Russia would kind

509
00:24:39.205 --> 00:24:43.325
of take its place among European democracies, and,

510
00:24:43.425 --> 00:24:44.885
and it looked like it might,

511
00:24:45.225 --> 00:24:48.805
and now it looks like that day is a long ways away.

512
00:24:49.435 --> 00:24:53.625
Someday, democracies are vulnerable to a lot of things.

513
00:24:53.845 --> 00:24:57.225
Uh, every country is vulnerable to external attacks.

514
00:24:58.205 --> 00:25:01.865
My own view is, that democracies

515
00:25:02.825 --> 00:25:05.545
actually well respond well in an emergency that

516
00:25:06.055 --> 00:25:07.385
democracies are a mess.

517
00:25:07.625 --> 00:25:12.425
I mean, we, we all know that, we argue, we fight, we,

518
00:25:12.485 --> 00:25:14.905
we vacillate between right wing

519
00:25:14.905 --> 00:25:17.345
or center, right center left,

520
00:25:17.405 --> 00:25:20.185
we get different presidents with different priorities.

521
00:25:20.285 --> 00:25:21.745
It, it, it's always changing.

522
00:25:22.325 --> 00:25:26.675
And, and outsiders tend to see democracies as being weak

523
00:25:26.905 --> 00:25:29.195
because we have these ongoing arguments.

524
00:25:29.195 --> 00:25:30.555
We're like Italian families.

525
00:25:30.555 --> 00:25:31.755
We're just fighting all the time.

526
00:25:32.495 --> 00:25:35.875
But when you're under pressure from an external force,

527
00:25:36.975 --> 00:25:39.435
the differences that we have tend to disappear.

528
00:25:40.095 --> 00:25:43.355
We pull together. And again, I don't think

529
00:25:43.355 --> 00:25:46.595
that there is any, any force on earth, any political force

530
00:25:47.555 --> 00:25:49.715
stronger than a people who are united.

531
00:25:50.375 --> 00:25:54.835
And an external threat tends to unite democracies in a way

532
00:25:54.835 --> 00:25:57.115
that authoritarians cannot dream of.

533
00:25:57.735 --> 00:26:00.435
Um, and, and that goes to something that is,

534
00:26:00.495 --> 00:26:02.155
is called rational patriotism,

535
00:26:02.215 --> 00:26:03.635
and we might talk about that later.

536
00:26:04.335 --> 00:26:08.625
Uh, but, external threats are still there.

537
00:26:08.695 --> 00:26:11.865
Democracies, I think tend to, to respond very well

538
00:26:12.165 --> 00:26:13.225
to external threats.

539
00:26:13.565 --> 00:26:16.185
The real threat to democracy is internal problems.

540
00:26:16.685 --> 00:26:19.745
And, and we are seeing that play out,

541
00:26:20.115 --> 00:26:21.625
right now in the United States.

542
00:26:21.905 --> 00:26:26.865
I, we have a growing authoritarian right wing who tends

543
00:26:26.925 --> 00:26:28.865
to kind of, they talk democratic,

544
00:26:29.045 --> 00:26:32.145
but they don't really like democratic government.

545
00:26:32.265 --> 00:26:36.345
They, they talk about, Putin as if he's a model

546
00:26:36.445 --> 00:26:41.145
to emulate even Xi Jinping, as a model they want

547
00:26:41.145 --> 00:26:46.005
to emulate, Victor Orban in, in Hungary, these dictators

548
00:26:46.475 --> 00:26:48.885
that, that for some reason have an attraction

549
00:26:49.025 --> 00:26:51.005
to a certain percentage of Americans.

550
00:26:51.665 --> 00:26:54.245
It, it's that kind of internal problem

551
00:26:54.355 --> 00:26:58.525
that I think really is, is going to be, the undoing

552
00:26:58.525 --> 00:27:00.205
of lots of democracies.

553
00:27:00.825 --> 00:27:04.445
Uh, can we get over our disagreements to be civil,

554
00:27:04.585 --> 00:27:07.645
to respect the rule of law, to,

555
00:27:07.865 --> 00:27:10.445
if you lose an election seed gracefully,

556
00:27:10.495 --> 00:27:12.085
those are the rules of democracy.

557
00:27:12.905 --> 00:27:14.725
Or are you going to threaten a coup?

558
00:27:15.065 --> 00:27:17.405
Uh, that's the threat to democracy.

559
00:27:17.945 --> 00:27:19.885
And, we need to take that seriously,

560
00:27:20.205 --> 00:27:22.765
I think more seriously than we have, lately.

561
00:27:23.425 --> 00:27:25.165
One conclusion is, and,

562
00:27:25.185 --> 00:27:27.805
and I hope that the readers of my book Will,

563
00:27:27.835 --> 00:27:29.525
will, will see this.

564
00:27:30.265 --> 00:27:32.405
Uh, we need to think about democracy.

565
00:27:32.725 --> 00:27:34.725
I I think we in the United States have

566
00:27:34.725 --> 00:27:35.925
grown a little complacent.

567
00:27:36.585 --> 00:27:40.205
Uh, we have stopped emphasizing democratic government,

568
00:27:40.735 --> 00:27:44.525
democratic theory, democratic practice in our high schools

569
00:27:44.785 --> 00:27:46.125
and even in our colleges.

570
00:27:46.825 --> 00:27:49.325
Uh, and, and we kind of take it for granted.

571
00:27:49.505 --> 00:27:52.765
And, and we shouldn't because it's always under threat.

572
00:27:53.025 --> 00:27:54.805
We always need to take it seriously.

573
00:27:55.775 --> 00:27:58.325
Maybe more importantly, Americans tend

574
00:27:58.325 --> 00:28:00.445
to be very insular in our view of democracy.

575
00:28:01.025 --> 00:28:04.125
We see American democracy as the only kind of democracy,

576
00:28:04.945 --> 00:28:08.085
and all other democracies are inferior to ours.

577
00:28:08.785 --> 00:28:10.685
And that's, that's an unhealthy attitude.

578
00:28:10.715 --> 00:28:12.765
It's wrong and it's counterproductive.

579
00:28:13.505 --> 00:28:17.805
And so we in the United States need to think constantly

580
00:28:17.985 --> 00:28:19.685
and critically about our democracy,

581
00:28:20.265 --> 00:28:23.205
and we need to expand our boundaries and, and go out

582
00:28:23.465 --> 00:28:26.565
and understand the different kinds of democracy that,

583
00:28:26.715 --> 00:28:28.405
that have popped up historically,

584
00:28:28.435 --> 00:28:31.765
that exist in the world now, because we can learn from them.

585
00:28:32.145 --> 00:28:34.365
Uh, we don't like to learn from other people.

586
00:28:34.665 --> 00:28:36.085
And, and we need to learn

587
00:28:36.085 --> 00:28:38.605
because other countries have things to teach us,

588
00:28:38.835 --> 00:28:42.205
whether it's a positive model that, that we might emulate,

589
00:28:42.305 --> 00:28:45.565
or whether other countries show us a horrible warning

590
00:28:45.595 --> 00:28:46.925
that we might want to avoid.

591
00:28:47.545 --> 00:28:51.365
Uh, and, and that to me is, is the main implication

592
00:28:51.365 --> 00:28:55.125
of the book and what I want people to draw, from that.

593
00:28:55.865 --> 00:29:00.405
So, we also have ways that we need to improve our, our,

594
00:29:00.505 --> 00:29:04.725
our, our democracy, for example, other than the problems

595
00:29:04.725 --> 00:29:06.725
that we've already talked about,

596
00:29:06.725 --> 00:29:09.325
there's great political inequality in our country.

597
00:29:09.825 --> 00:29:12.245
Uh, we have an electoral college in the Senate

598
00:29:12.465 --> 00:29:14.965
who are very unrepresentative of the people.

599
00:29:15.625 --> 00:29:20.315
Uh, we have great, so great in a bad sense,

600
00:29:20.365 --> 00:29:22.435
great socioeconomic inequality.

601
00:29:22.935 --> 00:29:24.795
Uh, the, the gap between rich

602
00:29:24.795 --> 00:29:27.675
and poor in this country is, is vast.

603
00:29:28.105 --> 00:29:32.915
It's growing. You look at the genie index of the, the split

604
00:29:32.915 --> 00:29:36.475
between the wealthy and the poor United States slots in

605
00:29:36.585 --> 00:29:38.355
with Iran as one

606
00:29:38.355 --> 00:29:40.635
of the most unequal countries in the world, in the

607
00:29:40.690 --> 00:29:42.245
Socioeconomic, way.

608
00:29:42.665 --> 00:29:46.165
And that creates huge problems for us that I think we,

609
00:29:46.345 --> 00:29:48.205
we barely even realize at this point.

610
00:29:48.705 --> 00:29:51.605
So we have challenges that we need, to meet.

611
00:29:52.425 --> 00:29:55.325
We have other countries that we can look at for examples.

612
00:29:55.825 --> 00:29:58.805
Uh, and that is the conclusion I want readers

613
00:29:59.065 --> 00:30:01.365
to draw from the book, where to look

614
00:30:01.665 --> 00:30:02.805
to improve ourselves.

Understanding Democracy: Context and Challenges

00:00:00 - Let me answer it this way. I mean, first I can't imagine any political topic more important than democracy or interesting. and, and second, in the United States, I'm not sure we've ever done a great job of teaching government, let alone democracy in high school. But, over the last 30 years, things have only gotten worse. And, and so teaching college to, to freshmen and sophomores, in my Intro to Politics class, I just, way too many students come into college with just the most vague idea of what democracy is.
00:00:35 - and it's probably the only kind of democracy they know, but they really don't know the theory or the practice of democracy. They can't put American democracy into any kind of historical or comparative context. And, and third high school civics books are just so boring. so, so my hope was to write just a straightforward, informative, useful, and hopefully interesting overview
00:01:06 - I focus mostly on the us but I try to use a critical eye on American, democracy, and I try to place it into a constellation of different types of democracies, historical and contemporary. And, and finally, I, I just wanted a book that I might've actually read as an undergraduate. So I, I like cartoons, for example. So there are cartoons in the book. there's a lot of information packed in there, but if you know me, I'm kind of sarcastic and maybe a little bit random in nature.
00:01:38 - So I've had students say that reading the book that it sounds exactly like me, and I just hope they mean that as a compliment. Book starts out just making a basic distinction. I, I actually have seven pillars or seven dimensions of democracy. But the most important two, I think are, are the difference between liberty and freedom. So you ask an American to define liberty, and they can give you a pretty good definition of what liberty is.
00:02:11 - and they'll give you a pretty good definition of what liberty is. We, we tend to conflate those two terms to us. They mean the same thing, and they really don't, and, and they help to unlock what democracy can be. so these two main dimensions, liberty is the right to be left alone, the right to think what you want, to speak what you want, without government interference or interference by any anybody else.
00:02:43 - So liberty is individualism. It's the right to be left alone. Freedom is the right to get together with other people and participate in politics to decide what we're going to do and how we're going to do it. And if you value liberty, it's going To lead you in one direction toward liberal democracy. And if you value freedom, it will lead you in another direction, toward another kind

Direct Democracy vs. Liberal Democracy Dynamics

00:03:12 - or direct democracy. And those two are very different kinds of societies. you asked me about free democracy. That's, think Athens In Athens, every citizen, every male citizen was a legislator. They didn't have representatives. Politics was a team sport. Everybody went to the assembly. Everybody voted on the issues of the day. And that's how the Athenians decided what they were going
00:03:43 - We have elements of that in, in our democracy, but there aren't many. we have a liberal democracy. We tend to emphasize representative government. our representatives have freedom. They're the ones who get together and decide what to do on our behalf. we have freedom on one day, and that's election day when we choose our representatives. but there are elements of free democracy in American liberal democracy, too. one of the inheritors of,
00:04:16 - the townships in colonial New England. And, and in the townships, again, local citizens all gathered together. They all made their decisions collectively. they had representatives who, who did a lot of the work, but they were administrators. They weren't deciders the way that our democracy functions. we have one important element of free democracy in our country, and that's the jury system. 12 people go in and decide guilt
00:04:46 - or not responsible in civil actions. and we kind of don't appreciate it. I think the way that we should, the townships disappeared, relatively quickly after the revolution and our jury system that we ought to embrace and love. It's, it's one of our national sports, how to get out of jury duty. So Americans are, are, again, much more committed to liberty than we are to freedom. In part, it depends on where you stand on,
00:05:18 - The two main theories of where rights come from are they come from a higher power. They come from God. this is natural right theory, that God endows us simply because we were born human with certain rights and maybe responsibilities. there's a variation of that. Thomas Hobbes, for example, believed in natural rights, but he was not big on God. So he just thought it was nature. It was like Darwinian, that human beings are born
00:05:51 - to do what we want to do. If you believe in natural rights, and most Americans, at some level do, that it's the spirit of the Declaration of Independence, that we are endowed by our creator with inalienable rights, then you tend to believe those rights are universal because God loves us all equally. so, that would tend to lead you to believe that that rights are universal. The other theory of rights is positive rights.

Understanding Rights: Universal vs. Societal Perspectives

00:06:22 - our rights are gifts to that human beings give each other it, it's what we recognize and, and endow each other with. So there's no higher power giving us those rights. We, we give them to ourselves, or maybe our rulers give them to us, kind of top down rights. If you believe in positive rights. And, and I think most people outside of the US tend to believe in the positivist theory of rights. then you tend not to believe that
00:06:53 - They're just, they're tied to one individual society, but don't necessarily transfer to another society. and because Americans tend to think of rights as universal, i, it, it's inspirational in a way who, who doesn't like the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But that assumption that rights are universal can lead us into trouble too, because we assume that all cultures will accept our rights
00:07:23 - And it turns out that isn't necessarily true. And sometimes it does get us into trouble, rights and duties, again, because we in America tend to emphasize liberal democracy and liberty right to be left alone, we tend to deemphasize, we tend to resist duties. Rights are, are what the government or what other people owe to us. Duties are what we owe to the government or to society,
00:07:57 - And all societies are a balance of rights and duties, but Americans don't like the duty part. And, we, we have very few government duties that we have to follow. We have to pay our taxes. we're supposed to do jury duty when we're called. men have to register for the draft. And that's basically it. That's, that's all of the requirements that, that we have.
00:08:30 - in terms of, of duties. social democracies tend to emphasize more duties, more responsibilities that individuals owe to society. for Americans, the, the, the quote that I can think of the spirit of, of balancing liberties and, and duties, rights and duties, is John Fitzgerald Kennedy, who, who said, we should ask, not what our country can do for us, but what we can do for our country that is trying
00:09:03 - and duties from the government. and, and, and I think that that is a good way to think about it. But there are a lot of people, especially a lot of Americans, who think that Kennedy had it wrong, free democracy or participatory democracy. it, it just means that we're responsible for our own lives and our social lives. We are supposed to get together and make these decisions ourselves, rather than have elective or a point of, representatives do that for us.

Responsibility in Democracy: A Historical Perspective

00:09:36 - think the colonial townships, the way to think about it is who's responsible for what our society does? Is it are our representatives? Do we just kind of trust them to do what we think they ought to do? Well, in a liberal democracy, that's what you do. And if they're wrong, we wait two or four or six years and vote them out of office. But it's really up to them to figure out what to do and how to do it in a participatory or free democracy.
00:10:07 - There aren't so many representatives. The government is the people, rather than, than for the people from a free democracy point of view. the Athenians, for example, would look at America not as a democracy, but as an aristocracy. And there reasoning was that if you have elections, and this was 2000 years ago, remember, they knew that if you had elections, it took a lot of money to run
00:10:38 - And so they knew that if you had an electoral system, only rich people or people who were sponsored by rich people are going to be elected. And, and so that's why they would think of American democracy as, as being aristocratic rather than democratic. now, the, the other interesting thing I think is that the Athenians had a word for people who weren't interested in politics and who weren't interested in participating in politics.
00:11:09 - And that, of course, is where we get our term idiot. we think of it in the idiot as being somebody stupid. The Greeks, originated the word to describe somebody who wasn't interested in politics. parles in his, in his funeral oration, said that, the Athenians loved their freedom more than liberty. And that they saw people who, who sought to be private as, as not respectable, but useless if you try to withdraw into your own life
00:11:43 - that makes you an unproductive citizen and, and useless. So I think, that is, that's the difference in a nutshell between liberal democracy and free democracy. There are a lot of problems with democracy. And, and in my book, I, I have a chapter on, on the problems with democracy, the Case against Democracy. And, I, I just wanna be clear that in this chapter, I'm not laying out my personal views necessarily.
00:12:12 - and laying out a, a lawyer's case against democracy. That said, I, I think a lot of these criticisms are, are absolutely true. I I don't think that they're fatal, and I certainly, they don't change my mind about democracy, but you have to take the bad with the good. And, and this is the bad. These are some of the problems. first, maybe elite rule is better. elites, you know, people who are professional politicians, people

Aristocracy vs. Democracy: Leadership Perspectives

00:12:44 - or aristocracy just means rule by the betters. That's really all it means. And there are virtues to that. People who are educated, people who were born to lead. there are advantages in having people like that in charge. Aristocrats tend to take the long view. They tend to think not in terms of just the next election, which is how democracies tend to work. the long view is how long until the next election.
00:13:16 - They tend to think in, in terms of 20 years, 40 years, 50 years, a hundred years down the road. And their advantages to that. and aristocracy tends to be much more reliable. People stay in power longer. they become reliable partners. You know, what you're getting. when you have a relationship with an authoritarian or with an aristocratic society because they've been around a long time, you know they're going to be there a long time.
00:13:49 - which are notoriously unreliable as, as international partners, because we change our minds all the time. elite governments also tend to be better at economic development. and so especially for kind of poor or developing coun, countries, having a elite view has, has some economic advantages because again, they tend to focus on these kinds of issues, then flipping that coin over.
00:14:19 - and that is kind of, I always think of democracy as being run by amateurs. demos are the people. Democracy is ruled by the people. there's a saying in politics and democratic politics in particular, that, that America's run by sea students, America's run by mediocre people. And that is for some a problem. democratic leaders tend
00:14:50 - They tend to focus on their popularity. there, we don't necessarily elect the best people for office, for example, I'm kind of the rule of thumb in American elections, who will win? Number one, who's taller? Number two, who would more people like to go have a beer with? Those may not be the two best criteria to select our leaders. So we don't necessarily select our best leaders.
00:15:24 - They tend to be focused. They know what they want. They know how to get it. Democracies, we don't know what we want. We change our minds all the time. And so laws tend to be unstable as well. I think maybe the most serious problem, the most serious weakness of most democracies, especially free democracies, is tyranny of the majority. there, there there's no power

Challenges and Illusions of Democracy

00:15:53 - because who can check the power of the majority? Who can check the power of the many? There aren't any natural checks on that. emergencies, democracies tend to be slow to react to emergencies, because in a real democracy, you have to consult with people before you decide what to do, and that that can lead to problems. There, there, there is another argument to that, and we might get to it later,
00:16:23 - poor in emergencies. And, and finally, Karl Marx, for example, and, and there are others, Gaana Mosca, for example, the Italian theorist, they just argue that democracies are illusions that, that there are no real democracies, that, that all governments are run by an elite, and democracies are just kind of re fooling ourselves into thinking that the people have power. and, and that can be a problem with democracy too,
00:16:56 - The real problem, I think, with democracy on a practical level is, is that there tends to be a disconnect in liberal democracy between the people and their leaders. And, and that causes a lot of problems. Chief among which I think is, is kind of creeping authoritarianism leaders tend to stay in power a long time. they tend to kind of stop listening to people and, and, and doing what they want to do. And, and that can lead to problems too.
00:17:28 - and there's a third certain kind of creeping of authoritarianism that, that always be Devils democracies. I'll answer that in the reverse order. I, there, there are a lot of people in political science, maybe the best minds of 20th century political science, who argue the poor countries really cannot become democracies. Hannah Orent, who for my money, is the most important political thinker of, of the 20th century, if not longer,
00:18:00 - of political science, both argue that, that democracy is really a luxury of a middle class country, a relatively well-developed country. And they have a lot of data to back up that argument, because there are a lot of failed or struggling democracies that are also poor in the world. And, and they, they seem to have a lot of trouble kind of solidifying and institutionalizing their democracies. So there is, I think, something to be said for that theory.
00:18:34 - poor countries certainly can become democratic. They may have more struggles to overcome in doing so. Athens, for example, that had the greatest free democracy in the world. Its classical democracy was a very poor country. colonial America was a poor country. We just were dedicated to democratic ideals and dedicated to making it work. And it, it did work.

Barriers to Democracy and Economic Development

00:19:06 - Well, they have, I think, extra barriers that they have to overcome. but it is possible and, and it certainly is worth, worth sticking with. It's certainly worth trying. That said, you also ask which countries are more likely to become democratic. And, and I think it's absolutely true that you kind of go up the ladder of economic development a little bit to, to where Samuel Huntington called the zone of transition,
00:19:35 - society becomes easier. and that involves a certain amount of wealth, a certain amount of, economic development. The key there is, the development of a middle class. If, if you are very, very poor, you are just concerned with surviving, and that survival takes up all of your free time. As you become more economically well off, you also have more and more time, to yourself.
00:20:09 - to make to survive. He called them beautiful choices. And democracy is a beautiful choice. So as you develop a middle class society, you have people with a little bit more free time that can decide to become more politically engaged. The other reason why a, a, a somewhat developed country has an advantage in, in becoming a democracy is that you need a, a,
00:20:38 - State. Power is, is huge. states have a monopoly on the authoritative use of violence. They're very strong by nature, at least relative to their populations. When you develop a middle class, you now have a social unit that is rich enough and powerful enough that they can check the power of the state. Once you can do that, then democracy in that state becomes possible.
00:21:10 - And, unless somebody tells them no, and it's usually the middle class that has to tell them no. So that leads us to which countries will become more democratic. If I put money on it, I, I would always look for those developing countries that had, an emerging or a strong middle class. It doesn't mean they're going to become democratic, but they have a fighting chance if they want to. So I, the dark horses for me, always,
00:21:41 - China in a very short time, economically developed from being a, a poor country where millions of people starved to death in the 1960s to becoming, the second biggest economy in the world. It's a vibrant economy. It has a growing middle class. That middle class has the potential to rerun ti men square and to say, we, the people deserve power. Not the, not the Communist Party of China.

Democracy's Challenges in Iran, China, and Beyond

00:22:13 - but China is, is always tempting. another outside bet would be Iran. Iran is, is a theocratic society. It, it, it's, it claims to be democratic. It really, of course is not. But the potential is. There. Again, Iran has, has a very strong middle class, a highly educated middle class, which is also important. And at some point, they are going to get tired
00:22:44 - And so someday, I think Iran has, has real possibilities. other countries, you know, you are from Venezuela. Venezuela went from being kind of a, one of the bright stars of democracy in South America to being a basket case democracy. It, it, it really did well for a while, and then struggled and fell into this loop of, of kind of vacillating between tyranny and anarchy.
00:23:16 - most of my youth, south America was empty potential. It, there were democracies there, they were unstable. There would be coups followed by civilian rule, followed by military rule. Again, most of South America worked out their problems, between the 1960s and the 1980s. And, you know, that, that is hopeful too. the Middle East, I think there are some, other than Iran, Morocco will be a good case.
00:23:48 - but of all the Arab countries coming out of the Arab Spring, they were the ones who, who succeeded. Zimbabwe in Africa, in Sub-Saharan Africa is, is another example. I think of a democracy that that is emerging, from, from very troubled times in the, in the seventies, eighties, nineties, and, and has a chance of really becoming a vibrant democracy. So their, their democracy is emerging everywhere. It, it's kind of messy.
00:24:19 - and then drop down two steps forward, one step back. But the fact that they continue to try, I, I think it is just so encouraging. Rather than giving up and just saying, no, we're going to just have a dictatorship. And, and that'll be that way forever. the, my wish is, is that Russia would kind of take its place among European democracies, and, and it looked like it might, and now it looks like that day is a long ways away.
00:24:53 - every country is vulnerable to external attacks. My own view is, that democracies actually well respond well in an emergency that democracies are a mess. I mean, we, we all know that, we argue, we fight, we, we vacillate between right wing or center, right center left, we get different presidents with different priorities.

Democracy's Strength in Unity Against External Threats

00:25:22 - And, and outsiders tend to see democracies as being weak because we have these ongoing arguments. We're like Italian families. We're just fighting all the time. But when you're under pressure from an external force, the differences that we have tend to disappear. We pull together. And again, I don't think that there is any, any force on earth, any political force stronger than a people who are united.
00:25:54 - that authoritarians cannot dream of. and, and that goes to something that is, is called rational patriotism, and we might talk about that later. but, external threats are still there. Democracies, I think tend to, to respond very well to external threats. The real threat to democracy is internal problems. And, and we are seeing that play out, right now in the United States.
00:26:26 - to kind of, they talk democratic, but they don't really like democratic government. They, they talk about, Putin as if he's a model to emulate even Xi Jinping, as a model they want to emulate, Victor Orban in, in Hungary, these dictators that, that for some reason have an attraction to a certain percentage of Americans. It, it's that kind of internal problem
00:26:58 - of lots of democracies. can we get over our disagreements to be civil, to respect the rule of law, to, if you lose an election seed gracefully, those are the rules of democracy. Or are you going to threaten a coup? that's the threat to democracy. And, we need to take that seriously, I think more seriously than we have, lately. One conclusion is, and,
00:27:27 - will, will see this. we need to think about democracy. I I think we in the United States have grown a little complacent. we have stopped emphasizing democratic government, democratic theory, democratic practice in our high schools and even in our colleges. and, and we kind of take it for granted. And, and we shouldn't because it's always under threat. We always need to take it seriously.
00:27:58 - to be very insular in our view of democracy. We see American democracy as the only kind of democracy, and all other democracies are inferior to ours. And that's, that's an unhealthy attitude. It's wrong and it's counterproductive. And so we in the United States need to think constantly and critically about our democracy, and we need to expand our boundaries and, and go out and understand the different kinds of democracy that,

Learning from Global Democratic Models

00:28:28 - that exist in the world now, because we can learn from them. we don't like to learn from other people. And, and we need to learn because other countries have things to teach us, whether it's a positive model that, that we might emulate, or whether other countries show us a horrible warning that we might want to avoid. and, and that to me is, is the main implication of the book and what I want people to draw, from that. So, we also have ways that we need to improve our, our,
00:29:04 - that we've already talked about, there's great political inequality in our country. we have an electoral college in the Senate who are very unrepresentative of the people. we have great, so great in a bad sense, great socioeconomic inequality. the, the gap between rich and poor in this country is, is vast. It's growing. You look at the genie index of the, the split
00:30:01 - with Iran as one of the most unequal countries in the world, in the Socioeconomic, way. And that creates huge problems for us that I think we, we barely even realize at this point. So we have challenges that we need, to meet. We have other countries that we can look at for examples. and that is the conclusion I want readers to draw from the book, where to look to improve ourselves.

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