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Christopher Kelly highlights how Rousseau’s engagement with ancient political models, particularly Sparta and Rome, help clarify his broader political principles.

Image courtesy of interviewee. October 2, 2024

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This video discusses analysis of Rousseau's political thought, particularly focusing on the distinction between "exemplary figures" and "models." Contending that ancient political examples like Rome and Sparta serve as models to enhance our understanding of politics rather than mere ideals to imitate. This video highlights Rousseau's admiration for Republican Rome as the model of a successful political community, emphasizing liberty and the inherent challenges of governance, as illustrated by Rome's eventual decay.

Rousseau posits that the seeds of political decay are present in all communities from their inception, contrasting with thinkers like Hobbes, who believed in the possibility of creating lasting political structures. The discussion underscores Rousseau's critical view of modern political thinkers, praising ancient philosophers like Plato for their focus on morals and virtue, in contrast to the modern emphasis on commerce.

The work is noted for offering a comprehensive exploration of Rousseau's writings and the evolution of his thought, including his reflections on contemporary political situations in places like Corsica and Poland. Despite acknowledging the weaknesses of these communities, Rousseau sees potential in their unique characteristics to establish a political community with some strengths reminiscent of admired ancient societies. And argues that Rousseau’s insights can be applied to both ancient and modern political contexts, facilitating a deeper understanding of governance and its challenges.

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Here are five key points from the video:

1. **Distinction of Figures in Political Thought**: Shoppe differentiates between "exemplary figures" and "models" in political theory, particularly referencing ancient examples like Rome and Sparta. The emphasis is on models that reveal truths about politics rather than ideals meant for imitation.

2. **Rousseau's Views on Rome and Sparta**: The video argues that scholars have often overvalued Rousseau's admiration for Sparta, neglecting his appreciation for Rome, which he regarded as the archetype of free peoples and a model of successful republicanism. Rousseau believes the decay of Rome illustrates characteristic political failings.

3. **Political Community Impermanence**: Rousseau claims that issues inherent in the establishment of government lead to its challenges over time, suggesting that every political community carries the seeds of its own destruction. This perspective contrasts with Hobbes’ view that properly constructed political communities could endure indefinitely.

4. **Critique of Modern Political Thinkers**: Rousseau criticizes modern political theorists for neglecting morals and virtue, which he believes characterized ancient political philosophy. He highlights the limitations of modern thinkers who prioritize business and monetary concerns over moral considerations in politics.

5. **Potential of Corsica and Poland**: Despite being viewed as politically weak, Rousseau saw the potential strengths in Corsica and Poland, arguing that the features that distinguish them from contemporary political communities could become their advantages. He believed they had the opportunity to form political communities with merits akin to those of ancient political structures he admired.

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Here are some key quotes extracted from the video :

1. **On Exemplary Figures and Models**:
- "Shoppe's argument is structured very much around the distinction she makes between exemplary figures and models."

2. **Political Models of Antiquity**:
- "She discusses the political examples of Rome and Sparta and other examples from antiquity as models... these are not things that are simply perfection that is meant to be imitated, but models that are meant for understanding things that are particularly useful for revealing the truth about politics."

3. **Rousseau's Admiration**:
- "Previous scholars of Rousseau have tended to overestimate his admiration for Sparta and not pay enough attention to his admiration for Rome."

4. **Rousseau on Rome**:
- "Rome... is the model of all free peoples... Republican Rome is an example of a great political success."

5. **The Nature of Political Community**:
- "His claim is that... the seeds of destruction are present in every political community from the beginning."

6. **On the Challenges of Government**:
- "Rousseau says... that the very things that make us establish government tend to promote problems with government."

7. **Political Perspectives**:
- "Rousseau's insistence that the solutions to the problems of politics are always partial and temporary means that he thinks that politics will always be with us with all of its problems."

8. **Critique of Modern Political Thinkers**:
- "He is certainly a critic of modern political thinkers in general... ancient political thinkers talked about morals and virtue, whereas modern political thinkers talk only about business and money."

9. **Rousseau's Use of Ancient Thinkers**:
- "In a certain sense... Rousseau uses the ancient thinkers as a club that he can beat modern political thinkers with."

10. **Rousseau's Interest in Contemporary Issues**:
- "Rousseau was very interested in Corsica and Poland... both Corsica and Poland were normally regarded in the Enlightenment period as disastrous political communities."

11. **Transforming Weaknesses into Strengths**:
- "Rousseau... thought that the very things that distinguished them from modern political communities could be made into strengths."

These quotes encapsulate themes of political philosophy, comparisons between ancient and modern thought, and Rousseau's perspectives on government and society.

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Here are some articles and videos that discuss themes similar to those found in the transcript, particularly focusing on political philosophy, the contrasts between ancient and modern political thought, the ideas of Rousseau, and the implications of political models and examples:

1. **"Rousseau and the Politics of Virtue"** - This paper explores Rousseau's views on virtue and the role of moral education in political life, contrasting ancient political thought with modern perspectives.

2. **"Plato and Modern Political Theory"** - An analysis of how Platonic ideals can provide insights into contemporary political structures and ideologies, paralleling the discussion of Rousseau's admiration for ancient thinkers.

3. **"The Decline of Politics: From Antiquity to Modernity"** - A comparative study of how ancient political models, like those of Rome and Greece, are perceived against the backdrop of modern political systems and their inherent failures, echoing Rousseau's themes.

4. **"Rousseau's Critique of Modernity"** - This article examines Rousseau’s criticisms of modern political thought and his emphasis on ancient models as templates for understanding political community and virtue.

5. **"The Seeds of Dissolution: Political Community in Rousseau's Thought"** - A thorough investigation into Rousseau's idea that the foundations of political communities contain the seeds of their own dissolution, consistent with the themes discussed in the transcript.

6. **"Modernity and the Ancient Roots of Political Thought"** - This video discusses how modern political theorists can learn from ancient political practices and philosophies, relating to the tension Rousseau felt between his contemporaries and earlier thinkers.

7. **"Liberty and Government in Republican Rome: Lessons for Today"** - A piece that discusses the implications of Roman political structure on modern governance concepts, similar to the emphasis Rousseau places on Rome over Sparta.

8. **"Ancient Political Thought and Its Modern Significance: A Comparative Approach"** - This article delves into how ancient theories of governance provide critical insights and lessons for contemporary society, echoing the ideas presented in your transcript.

These articles focus on political theory, the evolution of political thought from antiquity to modernity, and the particular philosophies of Rousseau, providing a rich convideo for the themes present in the original video you .

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00:00.125 --> 00:02.485
Shoppe's argument is structured very much

00:02.485 --> 00:04.845
around the distinction she, she makes between

00:05.675 --> 00:08.005
exemplary figures and models.

00:08.865 --> 00:12.645
Uh, so she discusses ex the, the political examples

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of Rome and Sparta

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and other examples from antiquity as models.

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These are not things that are simply perfection

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that is meant to be imitated,

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but models that are meant for understanding things

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that are particularly useful

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for revealing the truth about politics.

00:30.185 --> 00:31.485
Um, her argument is,

00:31.505 --> 00:34.765
and I agree with this, that previous, scholars

00:34.765 --> 00:38.685
of Rousseau have tended to overestimate his admiration

00:38.785 --> 00:43.765
for Sparta and not pay enough attention to his, to his,

00:43.935 --> 00:45.245
admiration for Rome.

00:46.235 --> 00:49.125
Rome. He calls the model of all free peoples,

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and it's example of a, the Republican Rome is an example

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of a great political success.

00:55.585 --> 00:58.965
Um, so sso, so SHPE argues,

00:58.985 --> 01:02.245
and again, I think she's right on this, that,

01:02.335 --> 01:06.165
other interpretations of uso, which emphasize Sparta tend

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to make sau look like, something close

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to a modern totalitarian thinker,

01:11.915 --> 01:16.845
whereas the emphasis on Rome emphasizes his,

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the importance of liberty for him, things like, right

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to a trial, Rome as,

01:23.505 --> 01:26.285
the most successful political community

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that has ever existed.

01:28.625 --> 01:31.445
He also points out that it's one that went into a period

01:31.465 --> 01:34.805
of decay and ultimate dissolution.

01:35.825 --> 01:38.405
So his claim is that,

01:38.865 --> 01:42.165
if even Rome was unsuccessful in the end,

01:42.315 --> 01:45.005
this shows us something very important about politics.

01:45.745 --> 01:47.565
He argues that the very things

01:47.565 --> 01:52.485
that make us establish government tend to promote problems

01:52.605 --> 01:54.485
with government, that governments tend

01:54.485 --> 01:57.045
to become stronger over time and so on.

01:57.705 --> 01:59.445
So therefore, Rousseau says,

01:59.545 --> 02:02.565
and this is statement he makes in the social contract,

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that the seeds of destruction are present in every political

02:06.525 --> 02:07.645
community from the beginning.

02:09.145 --> 02:11.995
Some earlier political thinkers like Hobbes,

02:12.135 --> 02:13.235
and then some thinkers

02:13.525 --> 02:17.355
after Rousso have tended to, admit

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that Rome is an example of a successful community,

02:20.135 --> 02:23.835
but they also think that they have developed a political

02:23.835 --> 02:25.755
science that can solve the problem.

02:26.135 --> 02:29.075
So Hobbes is a, Hobbes is the strongest example of that.

02:30.055 --> 02:31.795
He insists that in principle,

02:32.065 --> 02:34.635
there's no reason why political communities,

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if they're properly constructed, cannot last forever.

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Um, in a way you could say

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a thinker like Hobbes thinks it's possible

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to have a one-time simple solution

02:46.825 --> 02:48.545
to the problem of politics.

02:49.125 --> 02:53.345
On the other hand, Russo's insistence that, that the,

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solutions to the problem

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of politics are always partial and temporary,

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And lead to dissolution means that he thinks

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that politics will always be with us

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with all of its problems.

03:06.145 --> 03:08.085
So is certainly a critic

03:08.665 --> 03:11.405
of modern political thinkers in general

03:12.265 --> 03:15.325
and in relation to those thinkers, he tends

03:15.325 --> 03:17.525
to praise ancient political thinkers.

03:18.145 --> 03:20.925
So he makes a, a, a, a famous remark,

03:20.925 --> 03:25.325
which in fact he took from Montesquieu, which is that that,

03:25.505 --> 03:28.645
ancient political thinkers talked about morals

03:28.665 --> 03:32.645
and virtue, whereas modern political thinkers talk only

03:32.645 --> 03:34.085
about business and money.

03:34.865 --> 03:37.765
Um, so that's a praise of the ancient thinkers in,

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in comparison to the modern thinkers.

03:40.825 --> 03:44.865
And Rousseau is, is,

03:45.045 --> 03:48.945
is fond often of using the ancient political thinkers,

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particularly Plato, to point to the problems

03:51.545 --> 03:55.345
that he sees in, in, modern political thinkers.

03:55.645 --> 03:58.505
And SHPE does a wonderful job of detailing all

03:58.505 --> 04:01.785
of the cases in which Russe, deals with Plato

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and Aristotle, and shows that he had a much, greater

04:05.525 --> 04:07.145
and more penetrating knowledge

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of those thinkers than he's often given credit for.

04:09.805 --> 04:12.425
In a certain sense to, to overstate a bit, you could say

04:12.425 --> 04:15.785
that Russe uses the ancient thinkers as a club

04:15.785 --> 04:18.825
that he can beat modern political thinkers with.

04:20.265 --> 04:22.585
I would add, however, that this doesn't mean

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that he always agrees with them in every respect

04:25.575 --> 04:28.345
when he deals with ancient political thinkers like Plato

04:28.345 --> 04:31.825
and Aristotle on their own terms, he certainly prepared

04:31.925 --> 04:34.545
to bring up, important disagreements.

04:35.045 --> 04:38.105
So again, I think that that chappy's argument, which, which,

04:38.105 --> 04:42.625
which I agree with, is that, that he uses his knowledge

04:42.625 --> 04:45.785
of ancient, political thinkers to bring out

04:45.785 --> 04:48.105
what he regards as the defects in modernity.

04:48.575 --> 04:49.945
This doesn't mean, however,

04:50.285 --> 04:53.585
and I think Chappy would agree with me on this, that,

04:53.765 --> 04:55.545
he is not simply a follower

04:55.545 --> 04:59.345
of the ancient political thinkers Shae belongs to, or,

04:59.405 --> 05:03.465
or is related to a group of French scholars

05:03.485 --> 05:05.385
who over the past, couple of decades

05:05.975 --> 05:10.385
have been producing volumes in which they re-edit Russo's

05:10.385 --> 05:13.865
works, looking closely at the manuscripts,

05:13.865 --> 05:16.385
giving manuscript variations and so on,

05:16.385 --> 05:17.905
and then writing essays on the works.

05:17.935 --> 05:20.065
They have a series of volumes out,

05:20.085 --> 05:22.745
and they're, they're universally a very high quality.

05:23.565 --> 05:28.455
Um, shoppy is a little bit different from some

05:28.455 --> 05:33.255
of the, members of this group in that her book is,

05:33.465 --> 05:36.815
while it's informed by close study of particular works

05:37.355 --> 05:41.255
and manuscripts, it's a really global treatment

05:41.255 --> 05:42.615
of Russo's political thought.

05:43.075 --> 05:47.775
Um, she, she deals with every major, political text

05:48.595 --> 05:51.655
and often, her treatment of things such

05:51.655 --> 05:54.855
as the way in which we so wrote a formulation in

05:55.415 --> 05:56.815
a first draft or an early

05:56.825 --> 06:00.645
Draft, and then changed it for the final version, is able

06:00.645 --> 06:05.005
to shed important light on, on, what he has to say,

06:05.505 --> 06:06.525
what he means.

06:07.105 --> 06:10.125
Um, so I think it's a, her, her treatment is very useful,

06:10.465 --> 06:12.205
from that, respect.

06:12.905 --> 06:17.885
Um, again, her focus is on ancient politics,

06:17.985 --> 06:19.285
but I think that her method

06:19.825 --> 06:22.925
and the insights that she gains from it can be extended to,

06:23.105 --> 06:26.125
to Russo's, analysis of modern political,

06:26.465 --> 06:27.925
communities.

06:28.535 --> 06:32.245
Russo was very interested in Corsica and Poland.

06:32.905 --> 06:36.165
Um, members of the governments of both places had written

06:36.225 --> 06:39.965
to him for advice about, setting up a new government.

06:40.585 --> 06:44.085
Uh, Poland had only recently become independent from Russia,

06:44.385 --> 06:47.805
and, and Corsica had only recently become independent of,

06:48.185 --> 06:49.445
of, Genoa.

06:50.265 --> 06:53.645
Uh, interestingly, both Corsica

06:53.905 --> 06:57.645
and Poland were normally regarded in the enlightenment

06:57.645 --> 06:59.245
period in which we so lived

06:59.745 --> 07:02.005
as disastrous political communities.

07:02.695 --> 07:05.365
Corsa was, was regarded as semi barbaric,

07:05.745 --> 07:07.925
and Poland was regarded as having really

07:08.675 --> 07:11.645
just about the worst structure of government,

07:11.645 --> 07:13.165
of any community in Europe.

07:14.325 --> 07:16.805
Rousse, however, while acknowledging the weaknesses

07:17.185 --> 07:20.605
of both communities, thought that the very things

07:20.635 --> 07:21.925
that distinguished them

07:22.635 --> 07:25.965
from modern political communities like France and England

07:25.965 --> 07:28.885
and so on could be made into strengths.

07:29.145 --> 07:30.765
The way in which the issue

07:30.765 --> 07:34.645
of political antiquity comes into this, I think, is

07:34.645 --> 07:38.605
that Russo suggests that that Corsica in particular,

07:38.785 --> 07:42.405
but also to some degree, Poland have got the opportunity

07:43.065 --> 07:45.965
to do something that would create a political community

07:46.315 --> 07:48.325
that would have some of the strengths

07:48.485 --> 07:50.765
of the ancient political communities like Rome

07:50.765 --> 07:51.845
that he admired so much.

"Rousseau's Political Thought: The Distinction Between Exemplary Figures and Models in Ancient Politics"

00:00:00 - Shoppe's argument is structured very much around the distinction she, she makes between exemplary figures and models. so she discusses ex the, the political examples of Rome and Sparta and other examples from antiquity as models. These are not things that are simply perfection that is meant to be imitated, but models that are meant for understanding things that are particularly useful for revealing the truth about politics. her argument is, and I agree with this, that previous, scholars of Rousseau have tended to overestimate his admiration for Sparta and not pay enough attention to his, to his,
00:00:46 - Rome. He calls the model of all free peoples, and it's example of a, the Republican Rome is an example of a great political success. so sso, so SHPE argues, and again, I think she's right on this, that, other interpretations of uso, which emphasize Sparta tend to make sau look like, something close to a modern totalitarian thinker, whereas the emphasis on Rome emphasizes his, the importance of liberty for him, things like, right to a trial, Rome as, the most successful political community
00:01:28 - He also points out that it's one that went into a period of decay and ultimate dissolution. So his claim is that, if even Rome was unsuccessful in the end, this shows us something very important about politics. He argues that the very things that make us establish government tend to promote problems with government, that governments tend to become stronger over time and so on. So therefore, Rousseau says, and this is statement he makes in the social contract, that the seeds of destruction are present in every political
00:02:09 - Some earlier political thinkers like Hobbes, and then some thinkers after Rousso have tended to, admit that Rome is an example of a successful community, but they also think that they have developed a political science that can solve the problem. So Hobbes is a, Hobbes is the strongest example of that. He insists that in principle, there's no reason why political communities, if they're properly constructed, cannot last forever. in a way you could say a thinker like Hobbes thinks it's possible to have a one-time simple solution
00:02:49 - On the other hand, Russo's insistence that, that the, solutions to the problem of politics are always partial and temporary, And lead to dissolution means that he thinks that politics will always be with us with all of its problems. So is certainly a critic of modern political thinkers in general and in relation to those thinkers, he tends to praise ancient political thinkers. So he makes a, a, a, a famous remark, which in fact he took from Montesquieu, which is that that, ancient political thinkers talked about morals
00:03:32 - about business and money. so that's a praise of the ancient thinkers in, in comparison to the modern thinkers. And Rousseau is, is, is fond often of using the ancient political thinkers, particularly Plato, to point to the problems that he sees in, in, modern political thinkers. And SHPE does a wonderful job of detailing all of the cases in which Russe, deals with Plato and Aristotle, and shows that he had a much, greater and more penetrating knowledge of those thinkers than he's often given credit for.

"Rousseau's Engagement with Ancient Political Thought: A Tool for Critique of Modernity"

00:04:12 - that Russe uses the ancient thinkers as a club that he can beat modern political thinkers with. I would add, however, that this doesn't mean that he always agrees with them in every respect when he deals with ancient political thinkers like Plato and Aristotle on their own terms, he certainly prepared to bring up, important disagreements. So again, I think that that chappy's argument, which, which, which I agree with, is that, that he uses his knowledge of ancient, political thinkers to bring out what he regards as the defects in modernity. This doesn't mean, however,
00:04:53 - he is not simply a follower of the ancient political thinkers Shae belongs to, or, or is related to a group of French scholars who over the past, couple of decades have been producing volumes in which they re-edit Russo's works, looking closely at the manuscripts, giving manuscript variations and so on, and then writing essays on the works. They have a series of volumes out, and they're, they're universally a very high quality. shoppy is a little bit different from some of the, members of this group in that her book is,
00:05:37 - and manuscripts, it's a really global treatment of Russo's political thought. she, she deals with every major, political text and often, her treatment of things such as the way in which we so wrote a formulation in a first draft or an early Draft, and then changed it for the final version, is able to shed important light on, on, what he has to say, what he means. so I think it's a, her, her treatment is very useful, from that, respect. again, her focus is on ancient politics,
00:06:19 - and the insights that she gains from it can be extended to, to Russo's, analysis of modern political, communities. Russo was very interested in Corsica and Poland. members of the governments of both places had written to him for advice about, setting up a new government. Poland had only recently become independent from Russia, and, and Corsica had only recently become independent of, of, Genoa. interestingly, both Corsica and Poland were normally regarded in the enlightenment period in which we so lived
00:07:02 - Corsa was, was regarded as semi barbaric, and Poland was regarded as having really just about the worst structure of government, of any community in Europe. Rousse, however, while acknowledging the weaknesses of both communities, thought that the very things that distinguished them from modern political communities like France and England and so on could be made into strengths. The way in which the issue of political antiquity comes into this, I think, is that Russo suggests that that Corsica in particular, but also to some degree, Poland have got the opportunity
00:07:50 - that would have some of the strengths of the ancient political communities like Rome that he admired so much.

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