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What kind of knowledges of production in society could be developed at this point in history? Madhulika Banerjee argues that the answer lies in ‘already existing knowledge systems ( AEKS)’, accompanied by critical thinking on production, distribution and consumption systems.

Image courtesy of interviewee. March 21, 2024

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This video video discusses the importance of exploring alternative knowledge systems, particularly in the context of the climate crisis. The author emphasizes that traditional frameworks which have contributed to the crisis may not provide effective solutions. Instead, insights from long-standing knowledge systems that promote interdependence between humans and nature should be considered.

The lecture reflects on the evolution of knowledge, touching on historical debates about development and the necessity to derive new knowledge from diverse sources in response to the climate emergency. The discussion highlights the significance of understanding localized practices and community-based knowledge, particularly in the context of Indian Ayurveda, which has adapted over time to modern influences.

The author argues that the standardization associated with capitalist production can undermine traditional knowledge systems by imposing external norms that conflict with indigenous practices. Instead, there is potential for democratic engagement and community ownership over healthcare and agricultural practices through co-production of knowledge that addresses local needs.

In closing, the text advocates for recognizing the agency of communities in managing their relationships with nature and stresses the importance of retaining the memory of traditional ecological knowledge as a foundation for contemporary action and democratic participation. The author asserts that fostering agency and knowledge within communities is crucial for addressing climate change effectively.

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The context of this study is the quest for some directions

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to the climate crisis.

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Uh, we know that, the crisis is something

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that requires very clear responses,

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and it is possible that all the ways forward

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to the crisis, to, solutions to the crisis,

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don't like to call them solutions,

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but ways forward,

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need not necessarily arise from the knowledge frameworks,

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which have actually contributed to the making

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of the crisis in the first place.

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So, it's only wise to look for

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directions from other knowledge systems that have been

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with human communities forever

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and precisely

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because those knowledge systems have been devised

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with a view to fostering

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and continuing the interdependence between human beings

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and nature that human beings depend on.

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Nature and nature depends for sustenance

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and nature depends on human beings

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to be kept alive for a long time.

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So for both to survive

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and thrive, interdependence is the key.

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So human beings have developed knowledge about nature in

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order to understand it, to use it,

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but certainly not to abuse it.

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And these knowledges,

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therefore provide bull work of, directions,

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which are very important.

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And they have been tested, over time.

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But of course, when we seek to,

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bring them into the discussion today, they need

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to be adapted to the contemporary, no question about it.

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Uh, but then they have actually, you know, with the advent

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of modality and the fact

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that all these knowledge systems have

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encountered modality over the last 150

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to a hundred years in different parts of the globe,

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they have adapted, many

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of them have survived in different forms, different ways.

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So adaptation has been a way of life for them.

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And so they can prove to be very useful sources

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of looking for solutions to the climate crisis.

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This is why this work was, very important.

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Uh, it comes from, of course, the antis are,

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from another generation of debate, which was the critique

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of the development debate,

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because I studied,

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started this work in the eighties actually, when,

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we were taught, you know, the critique of development.

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But it was becoming increasingly clear, that,

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if we are to go find an alternative

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to the development framework, which gives us the benefits

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of development that is a better life, a more equitable life

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for people and so on, no question that is very important.

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But it became increasingly clear that the knowledge base for

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that alternative needs to come from some other sources.

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So the quest for understanding other knowledge systems

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has been around for a very, very long time.

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But increasingly, with the crisis in the environment leading

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to what we know today as the climate crisis, this has become

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absolutely an urgent need of the time.

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You know, in India, the study about knowledges

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that have existed in India have, if I would put it this way,

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broadly in two respects, the literature has,

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been in two respects.

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One is a study of texts, the thousands

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of texts that exist in India, which are broadly

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called the texts of Indian philosophy.

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But this is philosophy

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for practically every single aspect of life.

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It has been misunderstood for a long time as philosophy

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that is about religion, that's about spirituality.

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But increasingly over the last 50 years

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or so, it has become clear that the philosophy

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that we are talking about is actually the foundation that,

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that provides the foundation for the worldview of a range

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of knowledges that are relevant for everyday life.

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So whether you are making medicines or growing crops,

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or weaving cloth,

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or you're making pottery, you're making utensils,

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or you're using, you know, making tools for, whatever,

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all of them,

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the foundational worldview comes from those texts.

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So, and there are many, many texts specifically about these,

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of these knowledge systems as well.

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So there's a whole, you know, sort of, range

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of literature, which has broadly been called ology.

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But increasingly,

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ology has also thrown out the fact that there are,

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there's such a range of knowledges which,

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these texts actually provide a foundation to.

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Then there is, the work of historians of science,

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huge range of literature from the middle,

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19th century onwards,

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and, which has taken different kinds of forms,

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ideological orientations, theoretical perspectives,

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but provides a very rich bedrock of understanding

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where these knowledges came from

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and, what, changes have,

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changes they have undergone in the last couple of centuries.

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And then there's the work of anthropologists,

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of communities, of practitioners of these knowledges.

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So whether they're RN smiths or farmers

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or, you know, variance

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that's health practitioners and so on.

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So these are all literatures that exist, you know,

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in their own disciplinary rigor

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and have contributed immensely.

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Uh, what seemed to me as a student of politics, trying

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to understand the power relations

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in knowledge systems within knowledge systems,

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how they function and when knowledge systems come into

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contestation, what are the, structures of power

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that are in, at play,

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and how are these contestations resolved?

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And so on. I found

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myself drawing upon all of these different knowledges,

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different, literatures, very rich literatures,

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and, trying to interpret them

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with a political lens.

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Uh, so in that sense,

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to call my work a contribution

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to this literature in all humility, well,

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it's a drop in the ocean,

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but I think what it does do is try

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to foster a communication between them.

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That's what I, I am happy about

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because, it's very important

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and disciplinary silos exist as far

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as, you know,

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you practice these knowledges just within institutions,

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but when you go to the field,

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and as a student of politics, I was very blessed

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that my teachers taught me, keep an ear to the ground,

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listen to activists who work with these issues on the ground

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and learn from them as to how they deal

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with knowledge systems and how they adapt.

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And so, so this adaptation

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that I was talking about earlier is done

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by actual people on the ground.

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And as students of politics, unfortunately, not all

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of us are trained to look at what is happening on the ground

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and draw our inspiration for research from them.

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But I was privileged to have been given that training,

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and so I felt, okay, so this is a bridging

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between disciplines,

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and it's a bridging between the academia

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and probably the activist space.

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So I think that if it, if at all, I have managed

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to make a dent anyway, it's perhaps in these, spaces,

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which are not conventional spaces.

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Uh, but that's how it is.

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And I will speak about Ayur faith,

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which is the knowledge system that I've,

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studied in some depth,

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and on which I have a book that was published in 2009 by,

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or Black Swan from India.

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Um, and I have specifically studied the modernization

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process of ayur e speci, specifically by big capital.

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I studied large companies that actually undertook,

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Ayurvedic production of me, production

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of Ayurvedic medicines at a mass scale.

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And what I find is that initially, the

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urge to make, to undertake this production is to contest

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the medicines that came with the colonial, state.

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Uh, and, you know, because they were widely available,

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they were easily, available off the shelf

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and people could access them and so on.

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So the idea was to pose a counter to them

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by creating similar kinds of forms of medicine.

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But with Ayurvedic formulations, this developed over time,

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into, in the same way

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as everything developed into large manufacture.

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So whether it was cloth

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or anything else, it became a system

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of mass production for the market

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and, followed all the principles that it should be as,

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homogeneous as possible.

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The, the, the commodities that are being produced,

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they should be packaged in a particular way.

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They should be positioned in a particular way that is,

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they ought to be advertised

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and placed in the market in a way that

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that becomes accessible to people.

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And of course, pricing, you know, so I discuss all

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of these things in that book

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and argue that that modernization process,

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while it had the intent of posing a kind of,

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see, we too have a powerful medical knowledge system to,

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you know, to, to contest the British,

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medical knowledge that came to us.

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Um, over time

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because of the deployment of private capital, it became

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a capitalist enterprise like any other,

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it has done a way, a lot of good,

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no question about it, like, much

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of capitalist production has done,

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but it does have some innate difficulties.

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Uh, and I have talked about those as well.

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And the biggest problem is

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that when you talk about standardization of procedures,

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which is a very important element of capitalist production,

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then that standardization is done according to norms

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that are external to the knowledge system that already does,

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of course, every knowledge system

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that it, worth its salt.

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And that one has, you know, survived for thou

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for such a very long time, would have its own norms

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of standardization, but then the ones that they are expected

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to follow are the ones that, are,

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accepted by the market.

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And the market means the dominant pharmaceutical sector

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that was in place by the 1940s, fifties, right?

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So, this, production in a sense,

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is India's answer,

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or India's medical knowledges answer to

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what was happening in the

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dominant biomedical pharmaceutical sector.

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Um, a very important development at the same time,

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because it does not necessarily,

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follow the parameters

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of standardization

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that are within the Ayurvedic knowledge, system.

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Uh, it positions Ayurvedic medicines

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in a very different way.

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Ayurvedic medicines, while some, you know, are easy,

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you know, you can use them for self-medication,

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but like any good medical knowledge, it is supposed

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to be administered under supervision

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and very careful supervision of that.

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Um, there's not much time to go through all

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of those details, but, this is a very, this is a,

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an overlooked part.

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Uh, these are not grandmother's recipes, which is not to say

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that grandmother's recipes are not,

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they deserve a great deal of respect.

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It's not that, but that these are very strictly codified,

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very carefully structured, knowledges around

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diagnosis, prognosis, treatment,

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and the medicines that came out

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of it were one part of that knowledge system.

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So what it did was what I call in my book, pharmaceutical

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of Ayur a this has happened to, so, you know,

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you are just taking out one part of that knowledge system

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and making it part of the capitalist market.

248
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So, so on and so forth.

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There are many issues I've come out of this,

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and actually, later I have argued about how,

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you know, this kind

252
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of standardization has undergone many changes in the 20th

253
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century with very reflective IIC practitioners.

254
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But we can talk about it later, Ted.

255
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Like, so that's the kind of modernization that has happened

256
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to many, you know, many, many such knowledge systems.

257
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The reason why it is important to look at

258
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other spaces in which knowledge is produced

259
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and reproduced co-produced is

260
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because, is that

261
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they, the intent of the adaptation of these knowledges

262
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are not production for within

263
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a certain specified parameter of standardization

264
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and profit making,

265
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because co-production of knowledge

266
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of these medical knowledge systems,

267
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and, you know, Ayurveda is not one knowledge system.

268
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It is actually Ayurveda is practiced in its multiplicity.

269
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It, it, it in its diversity.

270
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That's another set of issues as well to talk about.

271
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But,

272
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when it is co-produced in community health initiatives,

273
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for instance, then it is about what the community needs.

274
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How best would the primary healthcare needs be addressed

275
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of the community, which we know constitute the most

276
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important parts of the requirements of any community.

277
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Of course. I mean, there's emergency medicine and dire

278
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Situations and big diseases, of course, those

279
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of those are very important.

280
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But the immediate and most widespread needs are those

281
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of basic healthcare.

282
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So they have, you know, the positioning of

283
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that co-production is very important.

284
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It is in terms of what would benefit the community.

285
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And that has a political potential in my view,

286
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because it comes from within the community,

287
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it comes from knowledges

288
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that the communities hold as a whole.

289
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But of course, these communities also have experts.

290
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They also have practitioners who are specialized

291
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in certain knowledges, medical knowledges,

292
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or any other kinds of knowledges.

293
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And there is a sense in which the community

294
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has a control over their own healthcare needs

295
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or maybe their agriculture needs,

296
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or the way in which they manage water,

297
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or they produce their own tools or whatever it is,

298
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because that, those range of possibilities have been there

299
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with many communities for a very long time.

300
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So the political potential is to allow for communities

301
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to have some kind of control.

302
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And I think as a student of politics, as a student

303
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of democracy and completely, you know, very, very,

304
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completely committed naturally to the idea of democracy,

305
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I think it is important to recognize democracy,

306
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not only in terms of the institutions

307
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that fulfill their responsibility to the people,

308
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but you know, there is something off the people

309
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and by the people as well.

310
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And the people need to feel that they

311
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have knowledge, they have expertise, they don't have

312
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to be catered for.

313
00:16:37.735 --> 00:16:39.905
Service. Delivery is not what they need.

314
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They can take care of themselves, which is not to say

315
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that the state does not have responsibility,

316
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of course it does, but it does not have to be the expense

317
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of communities being made to feel completely helpless,

318
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which is what has happened.

319
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Uh, you know, with the de legitimization of the knowledge

320
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that communities have carried, it has led

321
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to a loss of that power.

322
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So this is what I see as the political potential

323
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and communities have existed with knowledges,

324
00:17:11.755 --> 00:17:12.755
not only within themselves,

325
00:17:12.755 --> 00:17:14.755
and I'm not talking about just, you know,

326
00:17:14.815 --> 00:17:18.875
the very contentious, idea that Gandhi talked about,

327
00:17:18.885 --> 00:17:20.835
which is, you know, that they're all

328
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self-sufficient village republics.

329
00:17:22.785 --> 00:17:25.435
It's not as clear and box standard as that.

330
00:17:26.335 --> 00:17:29.075
But these are communities that have a sense

331
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of interdependence with other, for instance,

332
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pastoral communities.

333
00:17:32.695 --> 00:17:33.915
The relationship between settled

334
00:17:33.935 --> 00:17:36.555
and pastoral communities, absolutely amazing,

335
00:17:37.235 --> 00:17:41.195
fascinating study of how they, are interdependent

336
00:17:42.035 --> 00:17:44.125
between themselves be with nature

337
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and how they manage this, sharing of nature

338
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amongst themselves through the

339
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different knowledges that they have.

340
00:17:52.105 --> 00:17:55.605
So I think that this is the potential that we really,

341
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really need to, it's for everybody's good.

342
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It just helps everyone be a little more settled

343
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and confident of where they are.

344
00:18:02.525 --> 00:18:04.925
Democracy cannot function with people

345
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who are made to feel small.

346
00:18:08.355 --> 00:18:11.115
Equality means people have to all be equally big.

347
00:18:12.505 --> 00:18:14.425
I think that that's very, very important.

348
00:18:15.765 --> 00:18:18.625
You know, at least across the global south,

349
00:18:20.415 --> 00:18:22.445
there are communities

350
00:18:22.465 --> 00:18:25.765
and people still have a memory of this agency

351
00:18:25.765 --> 00:18:26.805
that you refer to refer.

352
00:18:27.915 --> 00:18:31.045
They have a memory which is active, which is in their hands,

353
00:18:31.065 --> 00:18:33.405
and which is in their heads and which is in their hearts.

354
00:18:34.275 --> 00:18:38.205
This is not about identity. This is about ecology.

355
00:18:39.315 --> 00:18:42.025
Where you live, the kind of nature that you live with,

356
00:18:42.285 --> 00:18:44.985
the nature that has framed you and formed you,

357
00:18:46.465 --> 00:18:50.565
and that which you understand to be both your source,

358
00:18:50.575 --> 00:18:53.605
which is why in so many cultures, nature is mother.

359
00:18:54.185 --> 00:18:57.165
So that is your source, but that is also your baby.

360
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It's your responsibility.

361
00:18:59.545 --> 00:19:03.845
So this memory is very precious for agency today.

362
00:19:05.075 --> 00:19:07.775
We talk about, you know, making climate action

363
00:19:07.795 --> 00:19:10.495
and so on so that we don't have climate refugees

364
00:19:10.595 --> 00:19:13.695
and people are, you know, having to flee from their places.

365
00:19:14.575 --> 00:19:17.415
I think it's such a belittling of human beings

366
00:19:17.515 --> 00:19:21.335
who have been able to manage thus far who would want

367
00:19:21.335 --> 00:19:22.495
to lead better lives.

368
00:19:22.555 --> 00:19:24.695
But that does not mean at this cost.

369
00:19:25.845 --> 00:19:29.865
So each one of us, where we were, we need to access

370
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that memory and create an adaptation

371
00:19:34.905 --> 00:19:38.885
of that memory for a renewed agency for democracy today.

Exploring Alternative Knowledge for Climate Solutions

00:00:00 - The context of this study is the quest for some directions to the climate crisis. we know that, the crisis is something that requires very clear responses, and it is possible that all the ways forward to the crisis, to, solutions to the crisis, don't like to call them solutions, but ways forward, need not necessarily arise from the knowledge frameworks, which have actually contributed to the making
00:00:33 - So, it's only wise to look for directions from other knowledge systems that have been with human communities forever and precisely because those knowledge systems have been devised with a view to fostering and continuing the interdependence between human beings and nature that human beings depend on. Nature and nature depends for sustenance
00:01:08 - to be kept alive for a long time. So for both to survive and thrive, interdependence is the key. So human beings have developed knowledge about nature in order to understand it, to use it, but certainly not to abuse it. And these knowledges, therefore provide bull work of, directions, which are very important. And they have been tested, over time.
00:01:42 - bring them into the discussion today, they need to be adapted to the contemporary, no question about it. but then they have actually, you know, with the advent of modality and the fact that all these knowledge systems have encountered modality over the last 150 to a hundred years in different parts of the globe, they have adapted, many of them have survived in different forms, different ways.
00:02:11 - And so they can prove to be very useful sources of looking for solutions to the climate crisis. This is why this work was, very important. it comes from, of course, the antis are, from another generation of debate, which was the critique of the development debate, because I studied, started this work in the eighties actually, when,
00:02:43 - But it was becoming increasingly clear, that, if we are to go find an alternative to the development framework, which gives us the benefits of development that is a better life, a more equitable life for people and so on, no question that is very important. But it became increasingly clear that the knowledge base for that alternative needs to come from some other sources. So the quest for understanding other knowledge systems

Exploring Indian Knowledge Systems for Climate Solutions

00:03:14 - But increasingly, with the crisis in the environment leading to what we know today as the climate crisis, this has become absolutely an urgent need of the time. You know, in India, the study about knowledges that have existed in India have, if I would put it this way, broadly in two respects, the literature has, been in two respects. One is a study of texts, the thousands
00:03:47 - called the texts of Indian philosophy. But this is philosophy for practically every single aspect of life. It has been misunderstood for a long time as philosophy that is about religion, that's about spirituality. But increasingly over the last 50 years or so, it has become clear that the philosophy that we are talking about is actually the foundation that, that provides the foundation for the worldview of a range
00:04:21 - So whether you are making medicines or growing crops, or weaving cloth, or you're making pottery, you're making utensils, or you're using, you know, making tools for, whatever, all of them, the foundational worldview comes from those texts. So, and there are many, many texts specifically about these, of these knowledge systems as well. So there's a whole, you know, sort of, range
00:04:51 - But increasingly, ology has also thrown out the fact that there are, there's such a range of knowledges which, these texts actually provide a foundation to. Then there is, the work of historians of science, huge range of literature from the middle, 19th century onwards, and, which has taken different kinds of forms,
00:05:22 - but provides a very rich bedrock of understanding where these knowledges came from and, what, changes have, changes they have undergone in the last couple of centuries. And then there's the work of anthropologists, of communities, of practitioners of these knowledges. So whether they're RN smiths or farmers or, you know, variance that's health practitioners and so on.
00:05:54 - in their own disciplinary rigor and have contributed immensely. what seemed to me as a student of politics, trying to understand the power relations in knowledge systems within knowledge systems, how they function and when knowledge systems come into contestation, what are the, structures of power that are in, at play, and how are these contestations resolved?

Bridging Knowledge: Politics and Ayurveda's Evolution

00:06:25 - myself drawing upon all of these different knowledges, different, literatures, very rich literatures, and, trying to interpret them with a political lens. so in that sense, to call my work a contribution to this literature in all humility, well, it's a drop in the ocean, but I think what it does do is try
00:06:58 - That's what I, I am happy about because, it's very important and disciplinary silos exist as far as, you know, you practice these knowledges just within institutions, but when you go to the field, and as a student of politics, I was very blessed that my teachers taught me, keep an ear to the ground, listen to activists who work with these issues on the ground and learn from them as to how they deal
00:07:31 - And so, so this adaptation that I was talking about earlier is done by actual people on the ground. And as students of politics, unfortunately, not all of us are trained to look at what is happening on the ground and draw our inspiration for research from them. But I was privileged to have been given that training, and so I felt, okay, so this is a bridging between disciplines, and it's a bridging between the academia
00:08:02 - So I think that if it, if at all, I have managed to make a dent anyway, it's perhaps in these, spaces, which are not conventional spaces. but that's how it is. And I will speak about Ayur faith, which is the knowledge system that I've, studied in some depth, and on which I have a book that was published in 2009 by, or Black Swan from India. and I have specifically studied the modernization
00:08:36 - I studied large companies that actually undertook, Ayurvedic production of me, production of Ayurvedic medicines at a mass scale. And what I find is that initially, the urge to make, to undertake this production is to contest the medicines that came with the colonial, state.
00:09:04 - they were easily, available off the shelf and people could access them and so on. So the idea was to pose a counter to them by creating similar kinds of forms of medicine. But with Ayurvedic formulations, this developed over time, into, in the same way as everything developed into large manufacture. So whether it was cloth or anything else, it became a system

Modernization and Standardization in Ayurvedic Medicine

00:09:39 - and, followed all the principles that it should be as, homogeneous as possible. The, the, the commodities that are being produced, they should be packaged in a particular way. They should be positioned in a particular way that is, they ought to be advertised and placed in the market in a way that that becomes accessible to people. And of course, pricing, you know, so I discuss all of these things in that book and argue that that modernization process,
00:10:12 - see, we too have a powerful medical knowledge system to, you know, to, to contest the British, medical knowledge that came to us. over time because of the deployment of private capital, it became a capitalist enterprise like any other, it has done a way, a lot of good, no question about it, like, much
00:10:40 - but it does have some innate difficulties. and I have talked about those as well. And the biggest problem is that when you talk about standardization of procedures, which is a very important element of capitalist production, then that standardization is done according to norms that are external to the knowledge system that already does, of course, every knowledge system that it, worth its salt. And that one has, you know, survived for thou
00:11:14 - of standardization, but then the ones that they are expected to follow are the ones that, are, accepted by the market. And the market means the dominant pharmaceutical sector that was in place by the 1940s, fifties, right? So, this, production in a sense, is India's answer, or India's medical knowledges answer to
00:11:43 - dominant biomedical pharmaceutical sector. a very important development at the same time, because it does not necessarily, follow the parameters of standardization that are within the Ayurvedic knowledge, system. it positions Ayurvedic medicines in a very different way. Ayurvedic medicines, while some, you know, are easy,
00:12:16 - but like any good medical knowledge, it is supposed to be administered under supervision and very careful supervision of that. there's not much time to go through all of those details, but, this is a very, this is a, an overlooked part. these are not grandmother's recipes, which is not to say that grandmother's recipes are not, they deserve a great deal of respect. It's not that, but that these are very strictly codified,

Pharmaceuticalization and Community Health in Ayurveda

00:12:50 - diagnosis, prognosis, treatment, and the medicines that came out of it were one part of that knowledge system. So what it did was what I call in my book, pharmaceutical of Ayur a this has happened to, so, you know, you are just taking out one part of that knowledge system and making it part of the capitalist market. So, so on and so forth. There are many issues I've come out of this,
00:13:21 - you know, this kind of standardization has undergone many changes in the 20th century with very reflective IIC practitioners. But we can talk about it later, Ted. Like, so that's the kind of modernization that has happened to many, you know, many, many such knowledge systems. The reason why it is important to look at other spaces in which knowledge is produced
00:13:51 - because, is that they, the intent of the adaptation of these knowledges are not production for within a certain specified parameter of standardization and profit making, because co-production of knowledge of these medical knowledge systems, and, you know, Ayurveda is not one knowledge system.
00:14:21 - It, it, it in its diversity. That's another set of issues as well to talk about. But, when it is co-produced in community health initiatives, for instance, then it is about what the community needs. How best would the primary healthcare needs be addressed of the community, which we know constitute the most important parts of the requirements of any community. Of course. I mean, there's emergency medicine and dire
00:14:52 - of those are very important. But the immediate and most widespread needs are those of basic healthcare. So they have, you know, the positioning of that co-production is very important. It is in terms of what would benefit the community. And that has a political potential in my view, because it comes from within the community, it comes from knowledges that the communities hold as a whole.
00:15:23 - They also have practitioners who are specialized in certain knowledges, medical knowledges, or any other kinds of knowledges. And there is a sense in which the community has a control over their own healthcare needs or maybe their agriculture needs, or the way in which they manage water, or they produce their own tools or whatever it is, because that, those range of possibilities have been there

Empowerment through Community Knowledge and Democracy

00:15:55 - So the political potential is to allow for communities to have some kind of control. And I think as a student of politics, as a student of democracy and completely, you know, very, very, completely committed naturally to the idea of democracy, I think it is important to recognize democracy, not only in terms of the institutions that fulfill their responsibility to the people,
00:16:26 - and by the people as well. And the people need to feel that they have knowledge, they have expertise, they don't have to be catered for. Service. Delivery is not what they need. They can take care of themselves, which is not to say that the state does not have responsibility, of course it does, but it does not have to be the expense of communities being made to feel completely helpless, which is what has happened.
00:17:00 - that communities have carried, it has led to a loss of that power. So this is what I see as the political potential and communities have existed with knowledges, not only within themselves, and I'm not talking about just, you know, the very contentious, idea that Gandhi talked about, which is, you know, that they're all self-sufficient village republics. It's not as clear and box standard as that.
00:17:29 - of interdependence with other, for instance, pastoral communities. The relationship between settled and pastoral communities, absolutely amazing, fascinating study of how they, are interdependent between themselves be with nature and how they manage this, sharing of nature amongst themselves through the different knowledges that they have. So I think that this is the potential that we really, really need to, it's for everybody's good.
00:18:00 - and confident of where they are. Democracy cannot function with people who are made to feel small. Equality means people have to all be equally big. I think that that's very, very important. You know, at least across the global south, there are communities and people still have a memory of this agency that you refer to refer.
00:18:31 - and which is in their heads and which is in their hearts. This is not about identity. This is about ecology. Where you live, the kind of nature that you live with, the nature that has framed you and formed you, and that which you understand to be both your source, which is why in so many cultures, nature is mother. So that is your source, but that is also your baby. It's your responsibility.

Climate Action and Human Agency

00:19:05 - We talk about, you know, making climate action and so on so that we don't have climate refugees and people are, you know, having to flee from their places. I think it's such a belittling of human beings who have been able to manage thus far who would want to lead better lives. But that does not mean at this cost. So each one of us, where we were, we need to access
00:19:34 - of that memory for a renewed agency for democracy today.

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