When Everything Is Human, the Human Is an Entirely Different Thing

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Rita Lucarelli discusses the ancient Egyptian demonic imagery of animal and hybrid figures, according to anthropological studies and theories of perspectivism

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Institution: University of California Berkeley

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Vita Lucarelli discusses the ancient Egyptian demonic imagery of animal and hybrid figures, according to anthropological studies and theories of perspectivism

Website: https://3dcoffins.berkeley.edu/

Image courtesy of interviewee. July 30, 2024

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In an interview, Vita discusses her study on the representation of monsters and fantastic animals in ancient Egyptian culture. She aimed to take a more anthropological approach, drawing inspiration from how different disciplines view monsters, rather than adhering strictly to traditional Egyptological methodologies. This video involved exploring the ancient Egyptian worldview and understanding fantastic creatures as embodiments of cultural concepts and ideas.

Vita references Jeffrey Cohen's "Monster Theory," particularly focusing on three of his theses related to monsters: their cultural significance, their tendency to escape representation, and their role in reflecting category crises. She emphasizes the importance of these fantastic beings in navigating the liminal space between life and death in ancient Egyptian beliefs.

Additionally, she touches on her research into ancient Egyptian demonology, which reveals that many demon figures are hybrid or composite animals representing different agency in the cultural context. She mentions using anthropological theories to understand how Egyptians viewed these creatures and their roles from a non-traditional perspective.

Vita expresses hope that her work will encourage new approaches in Egyptology, particularly regarding the study of ancient beliefs and their connections to magic and ritual practices. She anticipates further research and is currently working on a monograph titled "Agents of Punishment and Protection," focusing on the agency of these beings in relation to human experiences. The feedback from her peers has been positive, highlighting the significance of her interdisciplinary approach to understanding ancient Egyptian culture.

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Here are some key quotes from the video that capture the primary ideas and themes discussed:

1. **Different Approach to Monsters in Egyptology**:
- "With this article, I wanted to try something different from... a more traditional Egyptological study of... what we call monsters or fantastic animals in ancient Egypt."

2. **Interdisciplinary Approach**:
- "I tried a different approach, more anthropological approach... looking at other ways, in which other scholars from other disciplines look at monsters."

3. **Inspiration from Other Cultures**:
- "Looking at other cultures and the way other scholars, especially anthropologists, look at monsters... helped me to understand what fantastic animals... are about."

4. **Monster Theory**:
- "Monster theory is a very fascinating field... aims at explaining what monsters are in different cultures."

5. **Cohen’s Seven Theses**:
- "In particular, actually an essay by Jeffrey Cohen, called The Monster Theory, monster Culture seven thesis... in order to understand cultures through their own monsters."

6. **The Concept of Liminality**:
- "Those animal powers... represent... the liminality, the crisis, the human crisis between... life and death, and the new life."

7. **Agency of Creatures**:
- "What I try to see is not just historical origin, but also the agency of those creatures."

8. **Inverted Perspective**:
- "We become the prey and... they are the hunters."

9. **Anthropological Theories**:
- "Using anthropological theories and methods... we can maybe achieve new understandings of this ancient culture."

10. **The Integral Role of Magic**:
- "Magic for the ancient Egyptians was an integral part of religion... the aim of those compositions was to make something happen magically."

11. **New Terminology**:
- "I don't even call them demons anymore... I really focus on the agency of those beings and what they do and how they relate to humankind."

These quotes effectively encapsulate the essence of the author's exploration of monsters in ancient Egyptian culture and the interdisciplinary methodologies employed to understand their significance.

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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With this article, I wanted

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to try something different from,

00:05.205 --> 00:09.565
a more traditional Egypt logical study of,

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what we call monsters or fantastic animals in ancient Egypt.

00:14.825 --> 00:18.605
Uh, what I did was not just comparing images

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and text related to these fantastic creatures in

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between themselves, within the Egyptian,

00:28.585 --> 00:29.765
worldview

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and within the sources we have from ancient Egypt.

00:32.905 --> 00:35.485
But I tried, a different approach,

00:35.755 --> 00:37.485
more anthropological approach.

00:37.705 --> 00:42.405
So what I did was looking at other ways,

00:43.185 --> 00:45.965
in which other scholars from other disciplines

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look at monsters.

00:48.185 --> 00:49.765
And so I did that

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because I, I needed some new inspiration in order to,

00:53.385 --> 00:54.885
to study those creatures.

00:55.565 --> 00:57.845
I had the feeling that the Egyptian text

00:57.905 --> 01:02.845
and images were alluding, alluding to,

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certain concepts and ideas without explaining them.

01:06.185 --> 01:08.005
And so looking at other cultures

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and the way other scholars, especially anthropologists,

01:12.355 --> 01:16.805
look at monsters, in other, cultures,

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not only ancient, but also modern, helped me to understand,

01:21.105 --> 01:23.325
what fantastic animals,

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or also just what I call animal powers in the ancient

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Egyptian world, are about monster theory is,

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very fascinating.

01:33.885 --> 01:37.245
I think field, I wouldn't, it is not the discipline.

01:37.585 --> 01:41.325
It is really an interdisciplinary field, that,

01:41.635 --> 01:46.365
aims at explaining what monsters are in different cultures.

01:46.585 --> 01:50.645
And to do so, they use philosophical

01:51.765 --> 01:55.965
literary studies, anthropological studies, historicals,

01:56.145 --> 01:58.325
art historian historical studies.

01:59.105 --> 02:03.885
Um, in particular, I, I was as an Egyptologist,

02:04.105 --> 02:07.885
I found very interesting reading, some

02:07.885 --> 02:10.125
of the classics of monster theories.

02:10.345 --> 02:14.605
Um, in particular, actually an essay by,

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Jeffrey Cohen, called The Monster Theory,

02:19.405 --> 02:24.285
monster Culture seven, seven thesis that's dated

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to 1996.

02:26.305 --> 02:31.165
And, so what Cohen, does is offering seven thesis,

02:32.065 --> 02:36.485
in order to understand cultures, cultures through

02:37.295 --> 02:38.725
their own monsters.

02:39.505 --> 02:44.045
And so in this thesis, in use some,

02:44.045 --> 02:46.925
general frames of understanding of monsters,

02:47.435 --> 02:49.805
what those monsters tell about the culture.

02:50.505 --> 02:54.085
Um, I did not use the seven thesis in, in this article.

02:54.565 --> 02:58.645
I started, I hope to do that, to do more in the future,

02:58.705 --> 03:01.365
But I try to see if it would work out

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with the first three thesis that were also, I think from

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my geological perspective, the, the ones

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that apply better to, to my own sources.

03:13.145 --> 03:17.445
And so, and those three thesis were actually the first one,

03:18.265 --> 03:20.445
about the body of monsters.

03:20.665 --> 03:22.125
So the thesis is the thesis,

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the monster's body is a cultural body.

03:25.585 --> 03:28.245
Uh, the second was about the fact

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that the monster always escapes.

03:30.705 --> 03:33.565
So the monster doesn't really die, is not killed,

03:33.865 --> 03:37.285
but very often just escapes and then come back.

03:37.385 --> 03:39.685
And this is what we found in the Egyptian sources.

03:40.305 --> 03:45.005
And the third is about the monster as a sort of, older,

03:45.505 --> 03:50.205
herbinger, her herbinger of, category crisis.

03:50.465 --> 03:53.165
And indeed those, animal powers,

03:53.375 --> 03:56.885
these fantastic animals, that I seen,

03:57.285 --> 04:01.405
represented and mentioned in the ancient Egyptian world,

04:01.705 --> 04:06.405
are creatures that, act,

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function within some liminal spaces in times,

04:11.745 --> 04:15.885
in this, in this passage from life on earth to death,

04:16.065 --> 04:17.805
and then life in another world.

04:18.105 --> 04:22.445
So what they represent is really the liminality, the, the,

04:22.505 --> 04:26.365
the crisis, the human crisis between those two dimensions,

04:26.835 --> 04:28.645
life and death, and the new life.

04:29.665 --> 04:33.965
Um, and so those, I applied in the, in the papers, the,

04:34.025 --> 04:37.005
the three thesis and, used,

04:37.275 --> 04:40.765
some Egyptian evidence while the, the readers can,

04:40.995 --> 04:44.365
look then into the details of them, of those,

04:44.985 --> 04:46.445
kind of, sources.

04:46.625 --> 04:51.445
So I used both textual and, iconographic.

04:51.985 --> 04:53.565
I'm currently writing,

04:53.765 --> 04:56.685
a larger monograph on ancient Egyptian demons.

04:57.425 --> 04:59.725
And, what is really peculiar

04:59.745 --> 05:02.445
of the ancient Egyptian demonology is that most

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of those creatures are hybrid creatures,

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or what other colleagues call composite animals.

05:12.625 --> 05:17.365
And so I've been asking why animals are so important in, in,

05:17.825 --> 05:22.485
in the, the majory of, the, the other words,

05:22.745 --> 05:27.565
in strategic, and why many of those animals

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and composite animals are represented as demons.

05:31.985 --> 05:36.805
Uh, and so, basically, in my analysis,

05:36.865 --> 05:41.845
the key aspect is trying to understand, about the agency

05:41.945 --> 05:42.965
of those creatures.

05:43.025 --> 05:47.045
So not really try to define what they are

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or if they are connected to, real historical animal.

05:52.505 --> 05:57.365
Um, and this is where crypto cryptozoology,

05:57.495 --> 05:59.165
comes, useful

05:59.165 --> 06:02.485
because cryptozoology, it's, it's not really a discipline.

06:02.485 --> 06:06.765
It's more a subculture, looking at trying to reco,

06:06.765 --> 06:10.285
attempting to reconstruct the historical origin of,

06:10.285 --> 06:11.925
some animals or monsters.

06:12.705 --> 06:17.525
Uh, but what I try to, to see is not just historical origin,

06:17.705 --> 06:21.685
but also, the agency of those, creatures.

06:22.465 --> 06:25.805
And, what I, especially,

06:25.855 --> 06:29.245
focus on in this paper is, the fact that,

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when those animals are represented,

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without a clear function, so not like other kind

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of demons who have a specific function, for instance,

06:40.965 --> 06:43.125
they're guardians of the gates,

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or they are punishers, they have clear names,

06:46.825 --> 06:49.765
but there are those animal figures that seems not

06:49.785 --> 06:53.045
to have a real function, at least in it's not safe.

06:53.225 --> 06:54.845
So by looking at,

06:55.065 --> 06:58.045
the anthropological theories like perspective is

06:58.265 --> 07:00.765
so looking from other perspectives,

07:00.995 --> 07:04.085
this is used especially in the, in studies

07:04.225 --> 07:07.965
of Amazonian cultures, where not only humans,

07:08.145 --> 07:12.325
but also animals, plants, they have, individualities,

07:12.395 --> 07:16.845
they have, inner persona as,

07:17.265 --> 07:21.165
the Castro one or the authors I mentioned, says.

07:21.785 --> 07:24.045
And so, what I, I try

07:24.045 --> 07:26.685
to see these animals represented in the Egyptian.

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Other words as, agents,

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looking at themselves almost from, a human perspective

07:35.985 --> 07:37.485
and seeing the deceased,

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the passerby in this Egyptian network as a sort of prey.

07:42.905 --> 07:46.285
Uh, of course, this was the human conception, the, the,

07:46.305 --> 07:50.605
the Egyptians that probably they talked, the, the,

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another word is not an empty place, is plenty of gods.

07:54.365 --> 07:57.485
There's plenty of guardian demons, other kind of demons.

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It's also plenty of animals who are there

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to almost ch chase us.

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And so we became, we become the praise

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and, they are the hunters.

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So it's a sort of inverted perspective to

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what we are used to think.

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Like, we, we are the hunters of the animal.

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The animal is the prey, but not in this perspective.

08:19.745 --> 08:21.685
And so, I, I used also theories of

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what anthropologists called multiculturalism, multi,

08:26.825 --> 08:31.725
culturalism that is about, creatures,

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that have a different nature, different bodies,

08:36.665 --> 08:38.685
but the, they belong to the same culture.

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And so this will be the case of those animals

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that are almost humanized,

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because they belong to the same culture of the Egyptians,

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of the ancient Egyptians, so to, to their human world.

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Uh, so I, I try to use this perspective,

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and it kind of helped me to look at these, depictions

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and also to the, those ancient magical text that we found,

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attested in papyri, but also on tomb walls

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and other objects,

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and that they mentioned those creatures.

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They, but they don't tell us much about them.

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So in for us to try to understand them

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without really over-interpret the evidence,

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I think this kind of anthropological studies

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are really interesting.

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And, this is the first time I must say that, I try

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to do something like that.

09:31.105 --> 09:32.525
Um, I,

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I think I'm also the first one in general within the

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geological community to try something like that.

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So I, I'll see where, where I can go from there, what,

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what will be the feedback, from other colleagues since,

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the article appeared recently.

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But, until now, I'm a sad the,

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the feedback I had also from, students

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of the ancient world, that was pretty positive.

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I really, hope that,

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this will open, inspire, to another, a new sort

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of approach, the study in general of the,

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what we call the ancient Egyptian ary religion.

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So it is about religious beliefs,

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and worldviews connected to life after death until now.

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Indeed, the way we studied those sources in tombs

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from the tombs basically has been more traditional.

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So using theology, translating text,

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and doing an iconographic studies, of course,

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those approaches are fundamental.

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I'm not really proposing to replace them.

10:43.305 --> 10:44.565
But, since the,

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the big problem we have in Egyptology when we study Maji

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theology religion is that a lot of time

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we can have a literal translation of, of the text.

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We can look at images and describe the images,

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but we still don't understand

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what they wanted to do with that.

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And so, instead, I hope that by

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using anthropological, theories

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and, methods in the, in the study of those,

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very fascinating sources, we can, maybe achieve,

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new understandings of this,

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ancient culture and, and,

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and their, beliefs in magic.

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Um, magic for the ancient Egyptians

11:34.305 --> 11:36.405
was part integral part of religion.

11:36.865 --> 11:38.125
And so all those images,

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all those texts about those creatures, we,

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we call them magical text

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because, they, they were,

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they basically, their aim, the aim

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of those compositions was to make something

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Happen magically.

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So there is a, a lot of performance there.

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That's why it's very important to understand the agency

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of all those figures that are, described, in this,

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in these sources.

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And so I hope there will be more, colleagues,

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going into this direction.

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Uh, on the other end, I am developing, those,

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those methods further, in my, in a few,

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few articles, that are, forthcoming,

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forthcoming, and

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but especially will be, integral part of,

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my, forthcoming monograph on ancient Egyptian,

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the Demonology, which is indeed, entitled,

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not ancient Egyptian demonologist,

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but actually agents of Punishment and Protection.

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And then Demonology in Ancient Egypt is the subtitle,

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because I don't even call them demons anymore.

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Demon is a very loaded term that we use a lot, in,

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in different, of course, religions,

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with different also meanings.

13:06.615 --> 13:11.075
But, I, I really focus on the agency of those beings

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and what they do and how they relate to the u to humankind.

13:15.775 --> 13:18.635
So it is all about the worldview audience,

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ancient Egyptians, and the way they present,

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those non-human creatures, most of them animal creatures.

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So that's why I call them animal powers.

"Reimagining Ancient Egyptian Monsters: An Interdisciplinary Approach"

00:00:00 - With this article, I wanted to try something different from, a more traditional Egypt logical study of, what we call monsters or fantastic animals in ancient Egypt. what I did was not just comparing images and text related to these fantastic creatures in between themselves, within the Egyptian, worldview and within the sources we have from ancient Egypt. But I tried, a different approach, more anthropological approach. So what I did was looking at other ways,
00:00:46 - look at monsters. And so I did that because I, I needed some new inspiration in order to, to study those creatures. I had the feeling that the Egyptian text and images were alluding, alluding to, certain concepts and ideas without explaining them. And so looking at other cultures and the way other scholars, especially anthropologists, look at monsters, in other, cultures, not only ancient, but also modern, helped me to understand, what fantastic animals,
00:01:27 - Egyptian world, are about monster theory is, very fascinating. I think field, I wouldn't, it is not the discipline. It is really an interdisciplinary field, that, aims at explaining what monsters are in different cultures. And to do so, they use philosophical literary studies, anthropological studies, historicals, art historian historical studies. in particular, I, I was as an Egyptologist,
00:02:07 - of the classics of monster theories. in particular, actually an essay by, Jeffrey Cohen, called The Monster Theory, monster Culture seven, seven thesis that's dated to 1996. And, so what Cohen, does is offering seven thesis, in order to understand cultures, cultures through their own monsters. And so in this thesis, in use some, general frames of understanding of monsters,
00:02:50 - I did not use the seven thesis in, in this article. I started, I hope to do that, to do more in the future, But I try to see if it would work out with the first three thesis that were also, I think from my geological perspective, the, the ones that apply better to, to my own sources. And so, and those three thesis were actually the first one, about the body of monsters. So the thesis is the thesis, the monster's body is a cultural body. the second was about the fact
00:03:30 - So the monster doesn't really die, is not killed, but very often just escapes and then come back. And this is what we found in the Egyptian sources. And the third is about the monster as a sort of, older, herbinger, her herbinger of, category crisis. And indeed those, animal powers, these fantastic animals, that I seen, represented and mentioned in the ancient Egyptian world, are creatures that, act, function within some liminal spaces in times,

"Exploring Liminality and Agency in Ancient Egyptian Demonology: An Inverted Perspective on Fantastic Creatures"

00:04:16 - and then life in another world. So what they represent is really the liminality, the, the, the crisis, the human crisis between those two dimensions, life and death, and the new life. and so those, I applied in the, in the papers, the, the three thesis and, used, some Egyptian evidence while the, the readers can, look then into the details of them, of those, kind of, sources. So I used both textual and, iconographic.
00:04:53 - a larger monograph on ancient Egyptian demons. And, what is really peculiar of the ancient Egyptian demonology is that most of those creatures are hybrid creatures, or what other colleagues call composite animals. And so I've been asking why animals are so important in, in, in the, the majory of, the, the other words, in strategic, and why many of those animals and composite animals are represented as demons.
00:05:36 - the key aspect is trying to understand, about the agency of those creatures. So not really try to define what they are or if they are connected to, real historical animal. and this is where crypto cryptozoology, comes, useful because cryptozoology, it's, it's not really a discipline. It's more a subculture, looking at trying to reco, attempting to reconstruct the historical origin of, some animals or monsters.
00:06:17 - but also, the agency of those, creatures. And, what I, especially, focus on in this paper is, the fact that, when those animals are represented, without a clear function, so not like other kind of demons who have a specific function, for instance, they're guardians of the gates, or they are punishers, they have clear names, but there are those animal figures that seems not to have a real function, at least in it's not safe.
00:06:55 - the anthropological theories like perspective is so looking from other perspectives, this is used especially in the, in studies of Amazonian cultures, where not only humans, but also animals, plants, they have, individualities, they have, inner persona as, the Castro one or the authors I mentioned, says. And so, what I, I try to see these animals represented in the Egyptian. Other words as, agents, looking at themselves almost from, a human perspective
00:07:38 - the passerby in this Egyptian network as a sort of prey. of course, this was the human conception, the, the, the Egyptians that probably they talked, the, the, another word is not an empty place, is plenty of gods. There's plenty of guardian demons, other kind of demons. It's also plenty of animals who are there to almost ch chase us. And so we became, we become the praise and, they are the hunters. So it's a sort of inverted perspective to what we are used to think. Like, we, we are the hunters of the animal.

"Exploring Multicultural Perspectives and Agency in Ancient Egyptian Creature Depictions"

00:08:19 - And so, I, I used also theories of what anthropologists called multiculturalism, multi, culturalism that is about, creatures, that have a different nature, different bodies, but the, they belong to the same culture. And so this will be the case of those animals that are almost humanized, because they belong to the same culture of the Egyptians, of the ancient Egyptians, so to, to their human world. so I, I try to use this perspective, and it kind of helped me to look at these, depictions
00:09:03 - attested in papyri, but also on tomb walls and other objects, and that they mentioned those creatures. They, but they don't tell us much about them. So in for us to try to understand them without really over-interpret the evidence, I think this kind of anthropological studies are really interesting. And, this is the first time I must say that, I try to do something like that. I, I think I'm also the first one in general within the geological community to try something like that.
00:09:43 - what will be the feedback, from other colleagues since, the article appeared recently. But, until now, I'm a sad the, the feedback I had also from, students of the ancient world, that was pretty positive. I really, hope that, this will open, inspire, to another, a new sort of approach, the study in general of the, what we call the ancient Egyptian ary religion. So it is about religious beliefs, and worldviews connected to life after death until now.
00:10:27 - from the tombs basically has been more traditional. So using theology, translating text, and doing an iconographic studies, of course, those approaches are fundamental. I'm not really proposing to replace them. But, since the, the big problem we have in Egyptology when we study Maji theology religion is that a lot of time we can have a literal translation of, of the text. We can look at images and describe the images, but we still don't understand what they wanted to do with that. And so, instead, I hope that by
00:11:11 - and, methods in the, in the study of those, very fascinating sources, we can, maybe achieve, new understandings of this, ancient culture and, and, and their, beliefs in magic. magic for the ancient Egyptians was part integral part of religion. And so all those images, all those texts about those creatures, we, we call them magical text because, they, they were, they basically, their aim, the aim
00:11:52 - Happen magically. So there is a, a lot of performance there. That's why it's very important to understand the agency of all those figures that are, described, in this, in these sources. And so I hope there will be more, colleagues, going into this direction. on the other end, I am developing, those, those methods further, in my, in a few, few articles, that are, forthcoming, forthcoming, and but especially will be, integral part of,

"Reframing Ancient Egyptian Entities: From Demons to Agents of Punishment and Protection"

00:12:36 - the Demonology, which is indeed, entitled, not ancient Egyptian demonologist, but actually agents of Punishment and Protection. And then Demonology in Ancient Egypt is the subtitle, because I don't even call them demons anymore. Demon is a very loaded term that we use a lot, in, in different, of course, religions, with different also meanings. But, I, I really focus on the agency of those beings and what they do and how they relate to the u to humankind.
00:13:27 - ancient Egyptians, and the way they present, those non-human creatures, most of them animal creatures. So that's why I call them animal powers.

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