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Ann-Christine Frandsen draws on Michel Foucault’s “bottom-up” conceptualizing of “governmentality” to think the “governing subject” as initiator of, and passage point for, the “thinking and acting” of governing, beginning around 3300 bce in Mesopotamia and continuing down to today.

Image courtesy of interviewee. May 9, 2024

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This video video summarizes a discussion led by an author who, along with co-author Keith Hoskin, has contributed a chapter to a handbook focusing on accounting, governance, and accountability. Their research explores the historical and contemporary significance of accounting, particularly emphasizing its role as one of the earliest forms of writing, distinct from speech-derived writing, dating back to around 3000 BCE in Mesopotamia. The authors argue that this early accounting practice is vital for understanding human organization and governance, linking the development of city-states to the emergence of accounting as a method to manage resources and populations.

The chapter posits that accounting is fundamental to the concept of governance and accountability, and it highlights the reciprocal relationship between governing entities and those being governed. Furthermore, the discussion touches on the evolution of pedagogical practices in governance and the impact of educational methodologies on accounting and management practices over time. It indicates a transition to systematic ways of evaluating performance (such as through numerical grading) and the establishment of modern business enterprises.

The authors also call for a re-evaluation of accounting's role, especially in the context of contemporary challenges like climate change, advocating for an understanding of accounting that goes beyond mere number-crunching to encompass broader, non-financial aspects of governance and accountability. They emphasize the importance of adaptive and innovative approaches in accounting practices to address current global issues.

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It's a handbook, that we've been asked to,

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contribute with a, with a chapter.

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So it's about accounting and, governance

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and accountability, wrong order accounting, accountability

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and, and governance.

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So myself and my co-author, Keith Hoskin.

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So we have contributed there with the di chronic

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and contemporary dimensions to the topic

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and placing accounting at the center

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of governing and governance.

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Um, apart from the, the book chapter, it is also part

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of our research about the role of accounting more generally,

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but also how our work tries

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to reconceptualize accounting as writing

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as the first writing and in particular is significance in

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and part of organizing human lives.

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So in the chapter then

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and in general, we make the case that accounting

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as the earliest known, writing

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around 3000 BCE in Mesopotamia,

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and this is quite significant

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because this, this is about 500 years

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before early forms of speech derived writing.

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So this accounting writing is not speech derived,

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so it's silent in this sense,

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but it names and counts.

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That's it. It it only names and counts, simultaneously.

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And that is actually still the case up to today.

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So while accounting has been around since around,

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8,000 BCE, it is when these naming

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and counting signs, when they are separated out,

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that we can talk about writing,

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and that's why we sort of place it around 3000 b, CE.

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And we are making then the argument that this has a very,

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strong significance

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for in the way humans think in act in the world

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as it enable us to becoming the governing subject,

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which is the topic for the, for the chapter.

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And we also argue make way for the history of the state

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and other governed entities.

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And if you look at it, this is, when, Mesopotamia

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and the city states emerge, and they do have accounting.

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They don't have the other type of writing,

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which is phonetic based, what we call gto, graphic writing,

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but they do have, accounting.

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And with that, they can also start governing,

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and, set up and organize city states

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and redistribute what they're doing, you know,

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making sure that the agriculture is planned,

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for, and, allocated among the population.

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So, yes, so this is how we address

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to start off our governing and governance

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and how we become subjects we think

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and act with this frame of governability and,

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and, how that is in the historic settings,

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but also interchangeable ways when we talk about,

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the governing sub subject

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and those are being governable, and who we govern.

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This is not just about one way street.

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Uh, so usually when you talk about,

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governing a sovereign,

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they are governing other people, right?

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And it's a one way street.

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So we are not setting up that,

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but we actually work with the idea that we all thinking,

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acting, strategizing self.

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So, and this is very much for accordion,

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and, so this re resonates very well with him.

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And I think it's really, I important to, to, acknowledge

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that aspect of it because

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otherwise we end up with a very determined, very,

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one way street of, governing and being govern able.

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So coming back to your question then,

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so I mean, I,

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or we wouldn't talk about evolution of governing or,

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or governance,

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because you never know where things will end up,

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and this also resonates quite well, beautiful call

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because this is not the predetermined outcome by any means.

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So of course we can play that card line up as such outcomes

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as obvious, but they never are.

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Uh, and they can of course be reread yet, yet again,

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and probably they will be reread again.

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But what we are talking about here are regularities is a way

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of thinking and acting within, we need each area

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that we have talked about here,

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and something that I haven't mentioned here,

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but that goes through as a red thread all through the,

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the chapter is the pedagogic practices.

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So when you, counter regularities of,

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governance and governing, you also see a change

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of pedagogic practices.

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And this is really significance here in terms

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of when we talk about, from 1600,

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your question was all about.

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So you do have a, a significance of, of a shift in ways

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of learning to learn.

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So while, in our chapter, we, we talk about,

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a text,

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Uh, that where we see the first time more

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or less about governance

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rather than government.

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And this is quite significant

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because the governance is setting the ethical,

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aspect of how you govern.

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So it's not just about being a government, it's about

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how do you govern, right?

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So you get the governance

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and to what this, to what extent

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do you have a good disposition where you can govern

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then yes, women as well

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and things from your position as a sovereign,

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and be able to do the very best of your governance

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and for the people and things that you do govern.

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So you have this, aspect, of the ethical,

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subject and sovereign in that spec, sense.

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And the interesting bit here is that,

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how fco he talks about here in this sense

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how Louis the 14, how he had,

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a governor, who helped him

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as a young sovereign took over very early on,

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how he had to think

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and reflect on as how you govern yourself,

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first of all, right?

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How do you govern your family, right?

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And how can you then be in a position where you govern

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and manage your men and things in a good manner?

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So how do you place yourself as a govern able subject?

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So that's what he was taught,

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and that is a shift in ways of thinking about government

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and in this sense governing as an ethical

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aspect of governing.

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And that's is again, a shift in what for we call,

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for course is talking about, in, ways

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of thinking and acting in terms from, the, in terms

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of governing from that perspective, I would like to

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draw the attention to,

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the way that Fko brings up,

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Louis the 14

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and the way he was engaged with this, of the ethical,

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government

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or governing that he was, bringing up in his,

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discussion here.

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I would like to bring up the pedagogy issue on the inquiry.

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It may seems like it's outta place,

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but the inquiry as a way of learning

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to learn has very significance here.

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Now, the inquiry as a learning to learn is, was nothing new.

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It's actually come about around 1200 as a way to

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solve contradictions of the holy text as a way

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of telling the truth.

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Okay? So that is quite significant.

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So you have a methodology, ways of engaging with the text,

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and you can actually see this way of,

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solving these textual contradiction

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actually has a translation into double entry bookkeeping.

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So it infiltrates the learning to learn, not to everybody,

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because not everybody was educated,

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but for those who had the chance as a, to go through

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education, this was significance.

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So for, for Berg then in these,

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significance of being taught by the governor,

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these contradictions of telling the truth has also a good

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and bad aspect to it.

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So in terms of contradiction

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and solving data, telling the truth

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and be a good governor at the same time.

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So that's in terms of the pedagogy coming in

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and changing the way we, think and act

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and engage with accounting

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because not only in terms of, how,

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FAL talks about the Louis 14,

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but what you also have here is his, his, finance

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person, if you wish Colbert, who helped him working

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with, double entry bookkeeping

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to solve his finances systematically

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and set up this sort of administrative governing

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for Louis the 14.

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And he was very well off.

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So he could actually draw on what Bert was doing.

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At the same time, apply his

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good governance in this new particular way.

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However, when, Colbert then dies,

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so Louis was not very interesting in double entry

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bookkeeping and

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continued this kinda way of doing things.

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So it didn't really continued in France

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until much later.

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So I think that is significant.

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Now in moving on then to, to Chandler,

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we have again, a significant shift.

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And even though that charter for core, they were not really

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talking to each other

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or were inspired by each other,

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we see some significant aspects of this coming through.

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And one aspect is, again, a shift in learning to learn.

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And this will have implications for the phase

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that we are into today.

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If you saw wish an ear of, regularities

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or ways of thinking and acting for governing and,

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and governance in that aspect.

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And the shift in pedagogic practices is all about

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writing, examining and numerical grading.

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And the nu numerical grading on our,

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our performances has never been done in the pedagogic

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history until around end of 1700.

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Now, this became a significant shift.

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And what happens is that suddenly the way we learn

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to learn come through a lens where everything is evaluated

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through the writing that we have been examined through

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and a miracle graded.

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So we have both an absolute number of how good we are,

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but also relatively number of the population of students

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who have gone through the examination.

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And this is come through in every pedagogic

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situation through the 1800 and into the 1900.

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And this become our basis for our knowledge disciplines

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as we see them today.

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So yes, we are in a discipline era

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because we have to undergo this discipline

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of learning to learn, right?

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At the same time, we be become also experts

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in what we know and us thinking and acting

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and strategizing subjects, we can act that knowledge.

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So discipline doesn't mean

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that we are rolled older, you know?

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And that is, we have nothing to say.

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Of course we had something to say.

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We use our expert knowledge, okay?

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And a key thing is then to follow from this, but

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because for core, he's talking about discipline

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and discipline in particular around his knowledge

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that we get in a new way.

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Because what is different is that we don't need to,

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you know, look you up.

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We can actually educate you in this particular way

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and you can internalize that.

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So you become a way subjects

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or ways of thinking where you apply this way of

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thinking and acting out in the world.

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And with this, and this is significance, is that

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what you see is that those few

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to start with few men who went through this way of learning

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to learn, which actually happens in USA, okay?

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And these were men that had,

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undergone a really sophisticated, education

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but examined in this particular way, okay?

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And then they were fantastic engineers.

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They could also read French

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because they had read, French textbooks from Paris.

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They called the Poly Technique.

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And what they then did was to, when they were finished

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from the, academy of, west Point,

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because they were well educated, they were very attractive

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as, civil, engineers into the railroad

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in the, 1840s, fifties and sixties.

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But what they then did, right with this new way of learning

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to learn organized the way we are

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running businesses, okay?

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And this is the birth of the modern business enterprise

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that Chandler is talking about

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and what is happening that they then took their ways

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of learning to learn in a business context, okay?

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Then used accounting, accounting

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to manage the organization

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through evaluating every performance they could come up with

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that benefited to organize

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and coordinate their activities.

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So what is happening is that with a structure

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or structuring, which is called the line staff structure.

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So you have responsibility in line,

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and then you have a logistics of information

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where everything is evaluated in this particular way.

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So you can then, run from the top to the bottom

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and horizontally

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by coordinating all this information at different level.

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And when it's coordinate coordinated up front

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with all this information, you can sit at the top

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and you can have your glasses on

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and say, wow, what I see, what everything that we are doing

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that is aggregated into this overview.

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And if you want, you can then drill to anywhere you want

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to go and you could go down to the details.

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So you have administrative coordination with the information

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and, and statistical information flowing every

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day constantly.

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And this is also the birth

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of the modern business enterprise.

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And this is also

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what we see still today in a more sophisticated form.

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But the basic is there.

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So what we have

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and for cool is talking about is yes,

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we have a sovereign either as a person

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or an, as a group.

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We have discipline, definitely we have di discipline,

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and particularly with the mass education, we all are going

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through this way of being educated through writing,

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examining, and grading when we go out to the businesses

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where the translation from the pedagogic

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of our mass education into business is very small.

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Um, so you have, as I said, the sovereign,

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you have the discipline

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and you have a governmental management where the population

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is the target of desiring self

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and the desiring self is have all gone

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through this form of education.

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So you have a very different kind set for

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governing than in the 1600,

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where I talked about, Louis D 14 and, and Colbert.

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I would say that,

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all these dimensions are all ready there.

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Okay? So you have the sovereign, as I said, as a subject,

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as an, an individual or a group.

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You have the discipline and you can't get out there.

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Um, and you have the, governmental management.

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But what I think is really important here is, is generally

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to appreciate accounting as a ways of managing.

19:45.775 --> 19:50.725
For me that shift and understanding the role

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and the significance of managing is key.

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It's not just about number crunching and accounting.

19:59.275 --> 20:01.205
It's not about economics.

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I think that shift in thinking about the role

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of accounting in terms of how it can help us

20:11.215 --> 20:14.775
managing and not only the financial aspect,

20:14.845 --> 20:18.175
it's actually more about the non-financial one.

20:18.515 --> 20:21.095
And in particular if we look at the,

20:21.755 --> 20:26.455
the shift in climate change now we really need,

20:26.695 --> 20:29.575
a shift in how we do accounting and accountability.

20:30.735 --> 20:34.555
And I think if we are appreciate accounting in, in a way

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of indirection, which I try to emphasize

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even though I have not said it explicitly, is

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that we can then use it

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and, come up with different ways of,

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creating an accounting accountability that is suitable for,

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for the challenges that we have for climate change.

Exploring Accounting's Role in Governance

00:00:00 - It's a handbook, that we've been asked to, contribute with a, with a chapter. So it's about accounting and, governance and accountability, wrong order accounting, accountability and, and governance. So myself and my co-author, Keith Hoskin. So we have contributed there with the di chronic and contemporary dimensions to the topic and placing accounting at the center of governing and governance.
00:00:34 - of our research about the role of accounting more generally, but also how our work tries to reconceptualize accounting as writing as the first writing and in particular is significance in and part of organizing human lives. So in the chapter then and in general, we make the case that accounting as the earliest known, writing
00:01:05 - and this is quite significant because this, this is about 500 years before early forms of speech derived writing. So this accounting writing is not speech derived, so it's silent in this sense, but it names and counts. That's it. It it only names and counts, simultaneously. And that is actually still the case up to today.
00:01:38 - 8,000 BCE, it is when these naming and counting signs, when they are separated out, that we can talk about writing, and that's why we sort of place it around 3000 b, CE. And we are making then the argument that this has a very, strong significance for in the way humans think in act in the world as it enable us to becoming the governing subject,
00:02:10 - And we also argue make way for the history of the state and other governed entities. And if you look at it, this is, when, Mesopotamia and the city states emerge, and they do have accounting. They don't have the other type of writing, which is phonetic based, what we call gto, graphic writing, but they do have, accounting.
00:02:44 - and, set up and organize city states and redistribute what they're doing, you know, making sure that the agriculture is planned, for, and, allocated among the population. So, yes, so this is how we address to start off our governing and governance

Interplay of Governance, Learning, and Ethics

00:03:13 - and act with this frame of governability and, and, how that is in the historic settings, but also interchangeable ways when we talk about, the governing sub subject and those are being governable, and who we govern. This is not just about one way street. so usually when you talk about,
00:03:42 - they are governing other people, right? And it's a one way street. So we are not setting up that, but we actually work with the idea that we all thinking, acting, strategizing self. So, and this is very much for accordion, and, so this re resonates very well with him. And I think it's really, I important to, to, acknowledge that aspect of it because otherwise we end up with a very determined, very,
00:04:21 - So coming back to your question then, so I mean, I, or we wouldn't talk about evolution of governing or, or governance, because you never know where things will end up, and this also resonates quite well, beautiful call because this is not the predetermined outcome by any means. So of course we can play that card line up as such outcomes
00:04:50 - and they can of course be reread yet, yet again, and probably they will be reread again. But what we are talking about here are regularities is a way of thinking and acting within, we need each area that we have talked about here, and something that I haven't mentioned here, but that goes through as a red thread all through the, the chapter is the pedagogic practices.
00:05:27 - governance and governing, you also see a change of pedagogic practices. And this is really significance here in terms of when we talk about, from 1600, your question was all about. So you do have a, a significance of, of a shift in ways of learning to learn. So while, in our chapter, we, we talk about,
00:05:57 - that where we see the first time more or less about governance rather than government. And this is quite significant because the governance is setting the ethical, aspect of how you govern. So it's not just about being a government, it's about how do you govern, right? So you get the governance

Ethics and Governance in Leadership Dynamics

00:06:29 - do you have a good disposition where you can govern then yes, women as well and things from your position as a sovereign, and be able to do the very best of your governance and for the people and things that you do govern. So you have this, aspect, of the ethical, subject and sovereign in that spec, sense.
00:07:03 - how fco he talks about here in this sense how Louis the 14, how he had, a governor, who helped him as a young sovereign took over very early on, how he had to think and reflect on as how you govern yourself, first of all, right?
00:07:34 - And how can you then be in a position where you govern and manage your men and things in a good manner? So how do you place yourself as a govern able subject? So that's what he was taught, and that is a shift in ways of thinking about government and in this sense governing as an ethical aspect of governing.
00:08:07 - for course is talking about, in, ways of thinking and acting in terms from, the, in terms of governing from that perspective, I would like to draw the attention to, the way that Fko brings up, Louis the 14
00:08:38 - government or governing that he was, bringing up in his, discussion here. I would like to bring up the pedagogy issue on the inquiry. It may seems like it's outta place, but the inquiry as a way of learning to learn has very significance here. Now, the inquiry as a learning to learn is, was nothing new.
00:09:11 - solve contradictions of the holy text as a way of telling the truth. Okay? So that is quite significant. So you have a methodology, ways of engaging with the text, and you can actually see this way of, solving these textual contradiction actually has a translation into double entry bookkeeping. So it infiltrates the learning to learn, not to everybody,

Significance of Education and Governance Dynamics

00:09:43 - but for those who had the chance as a, to go through education, this was significance. So for, for Berg then in these, significance of being taught by the governor, these contradictions of telling the truth has also a good and bad aspect to it. So in terms of contradiction
00:10:13 - and be a good governor at the same time. So that's in terms of the pedagogy coming in and changing the way we, think and act and engage with accounting because not only in terms of, how, FAL talks about the Louis 14, but what you also have here is his, his, finance person, if you wish Colbert, who helped him working
00:10:49 - to solve his finances systematically and set up this sort of administrative governing for Louis the 14. And he was very well off. So he could actually draw on what Bert was doing. At the same time, apply his good governance in this new particular way. However, when, Colbert then dies,
00:11:19 - bookkeeping and continued this kinda way of doing things. So it didn't really continued in France until much later. So I think that is significant. Now in moving on then to, to Chandler, we have again, a significant shift. And even though that charter for core, they were not really
00:11:49 - or were inspired by each other, we see some significant aspects of this coming through. And one aspect is, again, a shift in learning to learn. And this will have implications for the phase that we are into today. If you saw wish an ear of, regularities or ways of thinking and acting for governing and, and governance in that aspect.
00:12:25 - writing, examining and numerical grading. And the nu numerical grading on our, our performances has never been done in the pedagogic history until around end of 1700. Now, this became a significant shift. And what happens is that suddenly the way we learn

Evolution of Education and Assessment Practices

00:12:57 - through the writing that we have been examined through and a miracle graded. So we have both an absolute number of how good we are, but also relatively number of the population of students who have gone through the examination. And this is come through in every pedagogic situation through the 1800 and into the 1900.
00:13:32 - as we see them today. So yes, we are in a discipline era because we have to undergo this discipline of learning to learn, right? At the same time, we be become also experts in what we know and us thinking and acting and strategizing subjects, we can act that knowledge.
00:13:59 - that we are rolled older, you know? And that is, we have nothing to say. Of course we had something to say. We use our expert knowledge, okay? And a key thing is then to follow from this, but because for core, he's talking about discipline and discipline in particular around his knowledge that we get in a new way. Because what is different is that we don't need to,
00:14:33 - We can actually educate you in this particular way and you can internalize that. So you become a way subjects or ways of thinking where you apply this way of thinking and acting out in the world. And with this, and this is significance, is that what you see is that those few
00:15:05 - to learn, which actually happens in USA, okay? And these were men that had, undergone a really sophisticated, education but examined in this particular way, okay? And then they were fantastic engineers. They could also read French because they had read, French textbooks from Paris.
00:15:35 - And what they then did was to, when they were finished from the, academy of, west Point, because they were well educated, they were very attractive as, civil, engineers into the railroad in the, 1840s, fifties and sixties. But what they then did, right with this new way of learning

Evolution of Modern Business and Accounting Practices

00:16:09 - running businesses, okay? And this is the birth of the modern business enterprise that Chandler is talking about and what is happening that they then took their ways of learning to learn in a business context, okay? Then used accounting, accounting to manage the organization
00:16:40 - that benefited to organize and coordinate their activities. So what is happening is that with a structure or structuring, which is called the line staff structure. So you have responsibility in line, and then you have a logistics of information where everything is evaluated in this particular way.
00:17:12 - and horizontally by coordinating all this information at different level. And when it's coordinate coordinated up front with all this information, you can sit at the top and you can have your glasses on and say, wow, what I see, what everything that we are doing that is aggregated into this overview. And if you want, you can then drill to anywhere you want
00:17:42 - So you have administrative coordination with the information and, and statistical information flowing every day constantly. And this is also the birth of the modern business enterprise. And this is also what we see still today in a more sophisticated form. But the basic is there. So what we have and for cool is talking about is yes,
00:18:12 - or an, as a group. We have discipline, definitely we have di discipline, and particularly with the mass education, we all are going through this way of being educated through writing, examining, and grading when we go out to the businesses where the translation from the pedagogic of our mass education into business is very small. so you have, as I said, the sovereign,
00:18:45 - and you have a governmental management where the population is the target of desiring self and the desiring self is have all gone through this form of education. So you have a very different kind set for governing than in the 1600, where I talked about, Louis D 14 and, and Colbert.

Reconceptualizing Accounting for Effective Management

00:19:16 - all these dimensions are all ready there. Okay? So you have the sovereign, as I said, as a subject, as an, an individual or a group. You have the discipline and you can't get out there. and you have the, governmental management. But what I think is really important here is, is generally to appreciate accounting as a ways of managing.
00:19:50 - and the significance of managing is key. It's not just about number crunching and accounting. It's not about economics. I think that shift in thinking about the role of accounting in terms of how it can help us managing and not only the financial aspect, it's actually more about the non-financial one.
00:20:21 - the shift in climate change now we really need, a shift in how we do accounting and accountability. And I think if we are appreciate accounting in, in a way of indirection, which I try to emphasize even though I have not said it explicitly, is that we can then use it and, come up with different ways of,
00:20:53 - for the challenges that we have for climate change.

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