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Remi Adekoya (the son of a Nigerian father and a Polish mother, now living in Britain) discusses what it truly means to be mixed-race in Britain today.

Image courtesy of interviewee. May 8, 2024

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The speaker discusses their personal experiences as a mixed-race individual with a Nigerian father and a Polish mother, having lived in Nigeria, Poland, and the UK. They highlight the differences in societal perceptions of mixed-race identities across these countries. In Nigeria, they were seen as different but not negatively; in Poland, they faced challenges and negative associations; whereas in the UK, they noticed a growing acceptance of mixed-race identities within a more diverse society.

The speaker observes that discussions around race often focus on binary classifications (i.e., black and white), sidelining the unique perspectives of mixed-race individuals. They emphasize that mixed-race experiences vary widely and should not be generalized. The speaker identifies different groups within the mixed-race community, including those with no white parent, who often feel excluded from the broader race discussions.

They argue that as the mixed-race population in the UK grows, it's essential for society to adapt and recognize the diverse experiences of mixed-race individuals rather than forcing them into existing racial categories. The speaker calls for greater understanding and acceptance of the unique challenges faced by mixed-race people, advocating for their visibility and acknowledgment in conversations about race.

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So the motivation, behind this was,

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to a certain extent personal.

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I, myself am a, mixed race, man now,

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the son of a Nigerian father

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and a Polish mother, I grew up in Nigeria.

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And so I experienced being mixed race in a Nigerian context.

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And then after secondary school in Nigeria, I moved

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to Poland where I experienced being mixed race

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in a Polish context.

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Very different from the Nigerian context.

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I lived in Poland for many years, went to university there,

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worked there, and then I moved to Britain in 2015

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and then experienced being mixed race in a British context,

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which was very different from both the Nigerian context

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and, and the Polish context.

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And so I found it, you know, interesting how this context,

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you know, that there were similarities in the experiences

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everywhere, but also differences.

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And of course,

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Britain being the first multiracial country I've lived in

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Nigeria is a monoracial country.

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Pretty much everybody's black, pretty much.

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And Poland, pretty much everybody's white.

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So it's also a Monoracial country

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and Britain's first multiracial country I've lived in.

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And of course, the issues

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around a race are discussed here much more,

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much more intensively

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and much more frequently than they are in Nigeria

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or in Poland for, for, you know, for obvious reasons.

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Um, so there's that

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and, why it's discussed in a binary fashion, I think

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because despite the fact that Britain is a multiracial,

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nation, and there's definitely a much larger group

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of mixed race people in Britain than there is in both

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Nigeria and Poland, demographically,

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it's still a predominantly monoracial society in the sense

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that, mixed race people, I think make up.

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I know that there's been a recent census,

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but it's under 5% of the total population of the uk.

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It's expanding fast,

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but it's not a huge number in of itself,

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which means most people in Britain,

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while there's ethnic differences in Britain, definitely

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amongst groups, most people in Britain will tend

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to be either white full stop or black full stop,

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or of Pakistani descent, full stop

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or of Indian descent, full stop.

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And the conversation is still dominated by those groups.

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And so the perspectives which we have out there on race

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is very often literally and figuratively, you know, black

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and white perspectives.

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And, mixed race people, have not really been able,

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I felt to sort

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of articulate their perspectives from a uniquely mixed race

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perspective on how the experience is, you know,

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because it's different from the experience

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of someone who's a hundred percent black, for instance,

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if you're say, mixed black

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and white, it's different from the experience of someone

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who is a hundred percent black.

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It's also different from the experience of someone

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who is a hundred percent white.

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Um, and, and, and we can discuss why,

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why this differences, are there,

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but it is a different experience yet that, you know, that

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that mixture is that uniquely, that unique experience

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or those unique experiences?

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Of course, it varies from individual to individual.

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I would say, are somewhat, overshadowed

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by the experiences of the much larger monoracial groups.

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It's a very large, a group so to speak.

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So very often when we think about mixed race people,

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because the race debate itself is focused on the black white

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dynamic, very often the picture

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of a mixed race person is, you know, the offspring

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of a black and white parent.

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And so someone like myself, so there is of course

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that group here in the uk,

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but then there are also mixed race people

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of mixed white Asian descent.

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So I also, I spoke to people who, you know,

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have a mother from Uganda, a father who was white British,

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or people who grew up here mixed black, white.

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But I also spoke to people who might have, you know,

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an Indian father and a white Scottish mother or vice versa.

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So there's also that mix.

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That's also, that's the other large significant group

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of mixed race people here.

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So you have the black white mix,

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then you have the Asian white mix,

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and then there's a third large group,

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of mixed race people who have no white

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parent in the background.

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So that would be, you know, the son of an Indian father

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and a Jamaican mother, you know,

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and that group is almost never talked about,

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or almost never factored into the whole mixed race into the

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whole mixed race and discussion.

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But they are there and their differences are also quite

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different from the differences of those of us

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who have a white parent in the background.

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And so these, I would say are sort of the three major groups

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or kinds of, of mixed race configurations,

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you would find here in Britain.

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Um, what unites them is definitely that sense of

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differentness from the monoracial groups,

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because very often having parents from two,

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racial groups involves, growing up

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with parents from two cultures very often, you know,

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if you have someone like myself who, you know,

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Nigerian father brought up in Nigerian culture,

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and then you have Polish mother brought up in Polish

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culture, those are two quite different cultures.

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And I had that growing up at home.

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So, you know, with the, the, the, the pros

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and the cons of that and you know, the conflict around that,

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you know, greater or lesser and the discussions

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and debates over, you know, how we should live, you know,

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because every culture tries to offer an answer

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for the question of, you know, what is the good life?

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How should we live?

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What is good, what is right, what is wrong?

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And every culture comes up with its own variation of,

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of an answer to that.

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Um, and when you have, you know,

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people in a home coming from different cultures,

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there can be, you know, various, more

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or less rigorous debates around that.

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And that also applies to people who've grown up, here,

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you know, here in Britain.

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And so there's that, so that, that sense, of,

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of differentness that, you know,

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our experiences are somewhat different from the

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experience of the Monoracial group.

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Definitely unites mixed race people, very often

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that sense of being sometimes othered from the sort of,

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you know, major groups, that also is there.

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And definitely what united, the mixed race Britains I spoke

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to, was very often at a, an annoyance.

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I'd been, you know, pigeonholed, you know, into one

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of the major groups, you know, and, and,

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and expected to act in a certain way

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because, you know, you have a black father, so well,

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you know, you should, you know, act in,

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I don't wanna quote a black way

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for instance, or something like that.

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Um, and so, or having your identity decided for you,

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you know, whereby, you know, a mixed race person would say,

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you know, I'm, I'm this.

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And people say, but you know, you don't look this to me.

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You know, like let's say somebody might have, I dunno,

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a mixed race black father in the background

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and a white mother, and they might identify as black,

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for instance, or identify or as mixed race.

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And someone tell 'em, you know,

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but you don't look black, you know, or you don't look white,

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or you don't look Asian, or you don't look Pakistani,

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or you don't look Indian to me.

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You know? And they'd say, you know,

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and they'd tell me, you know,

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but, you know, I grew up perhaps mostly around,

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I don't know, English culture or around Pakistani culture,

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or I, or I grew up with one parent, one of my,

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parents of a different area of background,

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and I identify more with the culture of that parent.

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Yeah. But then I go out and I tell people I'm this,

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and they're like, but you know,

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you don't look this, you don't look that.

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So, so, so these were sort of common themes

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that emerged in the discussions.

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So I would say, so in Nigeria, I was definitely part

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of a very, very, very small group of people

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who were mixed race, really very small.

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Um, so there's that.

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So you definitely sort of stand out very strongly.

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And, you know, while to, to a quote unquote white eye,

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to a white European eye, they may look at me

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and, you know, see a black person,

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or perhaps they might see a mixed race person

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to a Nigerian eye.

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It was very clear that, this fellow must have a parent

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who is not Nigerian.

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This, you know, they see it, people see it there

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because, you know, you stand out immediately.

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And so people see it and,

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and would often, you know, sort of ask, you know,

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you know, seems you have a boy, a parent who's not Nigerian,

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you know, who is it?

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You know, what's the story? What's the backstory? Et cetera.

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So they would ask that. So you definitely, walk

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around often feeling different.

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I mean, it's not like you think about it all the time.

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It's not like it's terrible experience,

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but it is something you're sort of aware of at the back

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of the mind that people do see you as different.

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And now, one thing I'd like to point out here is that,

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you know, people seeing you as different is not in of itself

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a an inherently negative thing.

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Uh, where problems arise is if people see you

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as a worse kind of different.

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Yeah. So you're not just different,

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but you are a worse kind of different.

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Now, in the Nigerian context, people did not see me

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as a worse kind of different.

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Yeah. So, you know, people would see me

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and you know, would talk et cetera.

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And because general associations

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with whiteness in the Nigerian context often revolve around,

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associations with wealth, you know,

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economic development, the west, et cetera,

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people generally look up to white people.

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If we're talking about the general population, you know,

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in Nigeria, because,

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and this is the case, I think,

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in many global south countries,

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and definitely in the poorer countries,

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material factors are really factors

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that determine your position in society.

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Nigeria, it's a very hierarchical society,

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and that h that hierarchy really pulls around sort

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of your material position in society.

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And people will generally treat you, unfortunately based on

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where they position you materially.

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Yeah. So are you from the group of, you know, the,

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richest people, the elites in the country,

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then you're treated very differentially,

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or are you from, you know, upper middle class,

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or is it middle class,

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or are you from the majority poor population?

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And so how you are treated by all these classes

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depends a lot on that.

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And so sort of the associations there with, with whiteness,

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because people might see me, people who didn't know me,

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didn't know my family, didn't know, home

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or anything like that, who would see me,

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when once they position you, they say,

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probably has a white parent.

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Oh, okay. They immediately, it clicks in their mind,

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you know, some kind of association with wealth, with,

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you know, with, with, with wealth.

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And so they might look up to you

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or treat you more differentially Yeah.

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On, unless they, you know, start talking, find out

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and find out, well actually your parents aren't, aren't

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that aren't that wealthy, you know?

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Um, so, so that could be the case.

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So, so that's that there, so you have those associations

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in Poland was the opposite case.

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So in Poland, I was treated definitely as different

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and very often a worse kind of different,

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especially in my early years in Poland.

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I moved to Poland in the mid nineties.

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Country was just emerging from communism, you know,

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had been a closed place definitely throughout the communist

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per po were not used to dealing much with foreigners,

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you know, and, and,

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and perceptions generally there of Africa.

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So when polls would see me, you know,

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they'd also immediately, you know, Jim, this is,

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you know, not a Polish person.

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And so they'd want to know where I'm from.

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Very often they'd assume it was from Africa

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to them to polish people.

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I looked like a black person, end of story.

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And the associations

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with Africa are very negative in Poland.

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So generally the associations are that it's a poor place,

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lack of economic development, backward, et cetera.

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You know, some worse terms, that we could think of.

11:17.775 --> 11:19.835
Um, and so the associations there were negative

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opposite from the ones in,

11:23.615 --> 11:25.235
in Nigeria in my mixed race context.

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And, you know, things did improve in Poland as the,

11:27.715 --> 11:29.075
you know, years went on, you know,

11:29.345 --> 11:32.035
more pole started traveling, Poland joined the eu,

11:32.535 --> 11:34.675
and you know, and things are definitely, you know,

11:34.675 --> 11:35.795
it's a definitely more open,

11:35.795 --> 11:38.715
more tolerant society than it was when I moved there in

11:38.715 --> 11:39.915
the, in the mid nineties.

11:40.415 --> 11:42.395
Um, so that, that I would say was sort

11:42.395 --> 11:44.435
of the distinguishing, future there, that sort

11:44.435 --> 11:45.875
of association with Africa.

11:46.135 --> 11:49.275
Africa viewed very negatively, very negatively,

11:49.425 --> 11:50.995
generally speaking by polls.

11:51.495 --> 11:53.645
Um, and then I come here to the uk

11:54.515 --> 11:56.775
and again, different, Nigeria, Poland,

11:57.155 --> 11:59.015
one many more mixed race people around.

11:59.035 --> 12:02.095
So you're not that, you don't stand out that much, you know?

12:02.195 --> 12:03.535
So I'm, I don't walk on the streets

12:03.535 --> 12:05.735
and, you know, people look at me like, like, like, you know,

12:05.735 --> 12:08.495
something different, which is the case often in Nigeria,

12:08.795 --> 12:11.695
and this is the case often in Poland, you know,

12:11.875 --> 12:14.655
but not the case in the uk even though I live in Sheffield,

12:14.655 --> 12:17.535
which is not the most diverse city in Britain,

12:17.835 --> 12:19.095
but it's still so diverse,

12:19.195 --> 12:21.495
so much more diverse than the other cities that, hey,

12:21.535 --> 12:22.895
I don't stand out that much here.

12:22.955 --> 12:27.535
You know? So definitely, I'd say I feel a, a comfort in

12:27.535 --> 12:30.095
that here in Britain that definitely, I, I,

12:30.255 --> 12:32.415
I can walk on the streets, you know, freely, et cetera,

12:32.415 --> 12:36.015
and, you know, I don't feel that I start stick out like a,

12:36.015 --> 12:37.495
so a sore thump, you know?

12:37.755 --> 12:39.895
Uh, and it's not like all the time in Nigeria and,

12:39.895 --> 12:41.575
and Poland even I felt that way.

12:41.865 --> 12:43.335
Don't think about these things all the time

12:43.345 --> 12:45.495
until somebody points out, points it out to you that,

12:45.495 --> 12:46.895
you know, you stick out like a sore thump.

12:47.195 --> 12:49.735
But definitely here in Britain, I sort of blend in

12:49.835 --> 12:52.255
or I'd say I blend in way more easily.

12:52.715 --> 12:54.375
And there is definitely a sort of comfort

12:54.515 --> 12:55.655
and security in that.

12:57.005 --> 12:59.465
Um, and definitely, you know, Brits, you know,

12:59.465 --> 13:00.705
have been engaging with people

13:00.765 --> 13:03.025
of different racial backgrounds, you know,

13:03.025 --> 13:04.905
for centuries now, you know,

13:05.205 --> 13:07.625
and so Brits have seen all sorts, you know?

13:07.925 --> 13:10.305
Um, so there's also I think a generally, you know,

13:10.305 --> 13:12.945
more open attitude, towards people

13:12.945 --> 13:13.985
of various backgrounds.

13:14.045 --> 13:15.585
And, you know, people will, you know, may want

13:15.585 --> 13:16.745
to know my story where I'm from,

13:16.745 --> 13:17.785
or definitely what,

13:17.935 --> 13:20.785
what I would say makes me stand out here is the

13:20.785 --> 13:21.825
Nigerian Polish mix.

13:21.825 --> 13:23.385
That's the one that people are like, wow,

13:23.705 --> 13:25.545
I haven't come across that, that that often.

13:25.685 --> 13:28.745
You know, and the Nigerian, British, a Nigerian,

13:28.745 --> 13:30.305
white British mix, you know, doesn't, you know,

13:30.305 --> 13:32.865
impress anybody here does it, does it,

13:33.055 --> 13:34.065
does it, yeah, exactly.

13:34.485 --> 13:36.265
You know, but when people hear, you know,

13:36.265 --> 13:37.905
my dad was Nigeria, my mom was Polish,

13:37.905 --> 13:39.305
they're like, what really happened?

13:39.365 --> 13:40.865
Oh, that's an interesting mix. You know?

13:41.285 --> 13:44.665
So that works, you know, somewhat em to my advantage here.

13:45.495 --> 13:47.915
Um, I would say, so that's, yeah, so that's,

13:48.205 --> 13:49.475
these are some of my thoughts on that.

13:49.615 --> 13:53.835
So I'm not sure if I would, say there is a sort

13:53.835 --> 13:57.115
of racial paradigm, you know, in, in the uk,

13:57.415 --> 13:58.555
and what do I mean by that?

13:58.575 --> 14:01.835
So people's experiences are very different based on their

14:02.195 --> 14:04.075
geographical locations, you know,

14:04.075 --> 14:07.195
whether they live in regions of the UK that are way more

14:08.065 --> 14:10.235
diverse, like London, for instance.

14:10.235 --> 14:12.475
So, you know, the experiences of a mixed race person

14:12.985 --> 14:17.395
growing up in London today can be very often, quite,

14:17.655 --> 14:19.915
how would I put it?

14:20.215 --> 14:22.395
Un unique so to speak, in the sense

14:22.395 --> 14:23.715
of they really blend in there

14:23.715 --> 14:26.315
because there's really large, community like that.

14:26.695 --> 14:29.275
But if you're growing up in, in the northeast, for instance,

14:29.295 --> 14:32.475
you know, of, of England, where which is much less diverse,

14:32.585 --> 14:34.035
then of course you stand out more.

14:34.265 --> 14:36.155
What I did try to do in the book is to speak

14:36.155 --> 14:38.115
to people from various generations

14:39.175 --> 14:41.035
and from various geographical locations.

14:41.095 --> 14:43.195
And again, of course, your socioeconomic circumstances

14:43.195 --> 14:45.035
growing up also determined a lot.

14:45.895 --> 14:48.635
So one clear thing that emerged was that, so I, you know,

14:48.635 --> 14:51.485
I spoke to people who'd been that first generation,

14:51.485 --> 14:54.445
who were born, following the second world war,

14:54.505 --> 14:57.645
and these were often the offspring of the children of,

14:57.795 --> 14:59.285
African American soldiers

14:59.665 --> 15:01.445
and white British mothers very often.

15:01.755 --> 15:03.245
That was sort of the first bigger

15:03.245 --> 15:04.605
generation of mixed race people.

15:04.825 --> 15:07.965
And they often had horrible experiences, not always,

15:08.145 --> 15:12.685
but often, growing up in, you know, 1950s, 1960s,

15:12.685 --> 15:15.905
Britain, however, those who were born.

15:15.925 --> 15:17.945
And then I spoke to people who grew up in the seventies

15:17.945 --> 15:19.665
and eighties and nineties and, and,

15:19.665 --> 15:22.505
and two thousands definitely those say born in the two

15:22.705 --> 15:24.065
thousands who are in their twenties now.

15:24.215 --> 15:27.225
It's a very different experience from those born, you know,

15:27.225 --> 15:29.105
in the fifties or earlier on,

15:29.625 --> 15:32.265
I would say a better experience, you know, in the sense,

15:32.365 --> 15:34.505
one, there are more people like them two,

15:34.505 --> 15:37.105
generally speaking, Britain is a more tolerant society.

15:37.765 --> 15:40.305
Uh, and so their, their experiences are definitely different

15:40.305 --> 15:41.785
from that, that older generation.

15:41.785 --> 15:44.705
So that I would say is, a clear positive.

15:45.245 --> 15:48.305
Uh, and then again, if we go geographically, you know,

15:48.305 --> 15:50.305
so people who might, you know, have grown up in Wales,

15:50.335 --> 15:52.505
like I spoke to people like that, you know, it,

15:52.895 --> 15:54.585
it's a less sort of diverse place

15:55.085 --> 15:57.945
and they might, you know, spoke to me about,

15:57.945 --> 15:59.065
you know, feeling more different.

15:59.065 --> 16:01.905
There are more instances of racism again, than those

16:01.905 --> 16:05.025
who may have grown up in the more diverse parts of England.

16:05.125 --> 16:07.065
So a lot de depends on that.

16:07.445 --> 16:11.105
Uh, socioeconomic circumstances sort of, you know, also,

16:11.285 --> 16:13.705
also definitely, determined.

16:13.705 --> 16:15.625
So there's, so, so it's various stories.

16:15.685 --> 16:19.185
So I wouldn't say, you know, point to a clear sort

16:19.185 --> 16:20.505
of, you know, racial paradigm

16:20.805 --> 16:22.585
and you know, where mixed race people fit,

16:22.615 --> 16:23.625
because again,

16:23.805 --> 16:26.425
we have those different kinds of mixed race people.

16:26.765 --> 16:28.265
So there's a mixed black white,

16:28.805 --> 16:33.595
and they, I would say are very often, sort of, you know,

16:33.955 --> 16:36.995
involved sometimes even trapped in that sort of black,

16:36.995 --> 16:39.995
white race debate, you know, around slavery,

16:40.055 --> 16:41.355
around colonialism

16:41.535 --> 16:44.075
and around the whole issue of black, white relationship

16:44.345 --> 16:46.755
that can be a sort of dominant factor in their lives.

16:47.305 --> 16:49.395
Yeah. At least it's something they can't sort

16:49.395 --> 16:51.075
of escape from, so to speak.

16:51.695 --> 16:54.155
Um, whereas, there isn't

16:55.025 --> 16:56.995
such an intensive race debate.

16:57.275 --> 17:00.675
I would, I would say between, for the Asian community and,

17:00.775 --> 17:01.915
and the white community.

17:02.175 --> 17:04.115
So people I spoke to who'd have say, you know,

17:04.115 --> 17:05.555
an Indian father and a,

17:05.555 --> 17:08.075
and a white mother, if they'd grown up, say 30,

17:08.085 --> 17:11.955
40 years ago, there would've been issues, significant ones,

17:12.695 --> 17:13.795
very often.

17:14.175 --> 17:18.235
But now sort of not really also sort of skin, if you go sort

17:18.235 --> 17:21.915
of skin color wise, people who have like an Asian parent,

17:22.455 --> 17:25.275
and a white parent can often quote unquote look

17:25.275 --> 17:26.555
white to many people.

17:27.455 --> 17:30.435
And so their experience is very often their mixed richness

17:30.435 --> 17:33.835
even goes unnoticed, you know, it goes unnoticed.

17:34.175 --> 17:37.515
And so it is not really, a major factor in their lives.

17:38.755 --> 17:40.495
Um, they're simply, you know, seen as white

17:40.495 --> 17:41.815
or sometimes people are surprised

17:41.815 --> 17:44.175
to find out they have an Indian father in the background,

17:44.515 --> 17:46.455
or an Indian mother in the background.

17:46.915 --> 17:49.485
Uh, and then there's the, the group of people who were,

17:49.645 --> 17:52.645
I said, no white parent in the background,

17:52.915 --> 17:57.565
they very often feel left out of the race debate, and,

17:58.065 --> 17:59.965
and especially of the debate around, you know,

17:59.965 --> 18:01.365
what it is like to be mixed race.

18:01.825 --> 18:04.045
So they'd often tell me, you know, I remember I spoke

18:04.045 --> 18:06.765
to a boy, you know, son of a, I think was Jamaican mom

18:06.825 --> 18:07.845
and Indian father,

18:08.145 --> 18:09.285
and they would say, you know, there's,

18:09.285 --> 18:11.405
there's no discussion about people like me in the whole

18:11.405 --> 18:13.725
mixed race, in the whole mixed race discussion.

18:14.105 --> 18:16.445
And even, you know, when sort of there's, you know,

18:16.445 --> 18:18.765
some effort, I don't know whether it's media

18:18.905 --> 18:21.685
or something to sort of promote,

18:21.685 --> 18:23.645
or talk about, you know, mixed race people

18:23.705 --> 18:24.885
and you know, show the faces.

18:25.355 --> 18:28.005
They tell me, you know, faces like mine are never shown,

18:28.305 --> 18:31.205
you know, that it's usually the faces of the mixed black,

18:31.205 --> 18:33.485
white, representative of the population

18:33.785 --> 18:35.805
or maximum mixed Asian white.

18:36.025 --> 18:37.845
But you know, there's us too and you know,

18:37.845 --> 18:39.405
and we sort of,

18:39.615 --> 18:42.725
don't fit into the paradigm in people's heads, you know,

18:43.065 --> 18:45.885
of the whole, within the whole race and my discussion.

18:45.985 --> 18:47.725
So yeah, so, so it not depends on

18:47.725 --> 18:48.765
that, on, on those factors.

18:49.075 --> 18:52.165
What I want readers to take from the book is that a,

18:52.165 --> 18:54.365
definitely, there's the uniqueness

18:55.185 --> 18:57.165
of mixed race experiences.

18:57.705 --> 18:59.925
I'm not saying the mixed race experience is one single

18:59.925 --> 19:01.805
experience is different for different people,

19:02.705 --> 19:07.125
but in of itself it is a standalone set

19:07.125 --> 19:10.925
of experiences, which, and I, I'd be, I'm very happy

19:10.985 --> 19:13.645
and I think the people I spoke to would be very happy if

19:13.645 --> 19:15.805
that was, you know, sort of recognized by society,

19:16.235 --> 19:17.485
that being mixed race.

19:17.865 --> 19:20.445
And I'm not saying it's a special kind of different,

19:20.905 --> 19:22.485
I'm just saying it is a different,

19:22.865 --> 19:24.925
and it would be great if, you know, society sort of,

19:24.925 --> 19:27.165
you know, realize that and realize the experiences

19:27.185 --> 19:29.205
of a mixed black, white, kid

19:29.385 --> 19:30.925
or mixed, Asian white kid

19:30.985 --> 19:33.405
and not necessarily the experience of a mixed Asian kid

19:33.405 --> 19:36.045
or of a mixed white kid with pros and cons of all that.

19:36.505 --> 19:41.085
So one that it's a standalone set of experiences,

19:41.305 --> 19:45.565
two, that mixed race people, would appreciate not

19:45.565 --> 19:47.645
to be pigeonholed, not

19:47.645 --> 19:49.725
to have their identities decided for them.

19:50.795 --> 19:53.535
So, you know, you meet a mixed race person, you know, and,

19:53.595 --> 19:54.775
and the person, you know, I don't know

19:54.775 --> 19:57.855
to you looks quote unquote white,

19:58.115 --> 20:01.295
but tells you that, you know, I'm black or identify black

20:01.315 --> 20:04.455
or identify mixed black, you know, please don't tell them,

20:04.475 --> 20:05.855
you know, but you don't, you don't look,

20:06.315 --> 20:09.575
you don't look black to me, you know, you look white to me.

20:10.195 --> 20:12.095
Um, and,

20:12.275 --> 20:14.455
and vice versa, definitely that would be appreciated.

20:14.635 --> 20:17.375
And generally speaking, with regards to, you know,

20:17.605 --> 20:20.215
what a monoracial, society, you know,

20:20.435 --> 20:23.535
for centuries mixed race people have been such a tiny group

20:24.005 --> 20:27.455
that they've always had to adapt to monoracial society

20:27.675 --> 20:30.015
and to the norms and to the whole sort of race equation

20:30.355 --> 20:31.495
as it looks at that level.

20:31.875 --> 20:33.655
Um, with this group growing

20:34.035 --> 20:37.055
and some estimates suggests by the end of the century,

20:37.055 --> 20:40.015
roughly a third of Brits could be mixed race,

20:40.355 --> 20:42.175
the rates at which the group is growing.

20:43.075 --> 20:46.855
Um, it's high time. Uh, it's not just

20:46.855 --> 20:50.365
Mixed race people who are to adapt to monoracial society,

20:50.705 --> 20:53.165
but monoracial society also learn to adapt

20:53.185 --> 20:55.685
to mixed race people, you know,

20:55.745 --> 20:58.365
and again, this is not about special treatment,

20:58.715 --> 21:01.405
it's just about recognizing that this is a different kind

21:01.405 --> 21:03.565
of experience and set of experiences,

21:03.905 --> 21:07.045
and that's what sort of, you know, acknowledging, respecting

21:07.305 --> 21:08.885
and asking people to, you know, simply

21:09.225 --> 21:10.205
and maybe be who they are.

Mixed Race Identity Across Cultures

00:00:00 - So the motivation, behind this was, to a certain extent personal. I, myself am a, mixed race, man now, the son of a Nigerian father and a Polish mother, I grew up in Nigeria. And so I experienced being mixed race in a Nigerian context. And then after secondary school in Nigeria, I moved to Poland where I experienced being mixed race in a Polish context. Very different from the Nigerian context. I lived in Poland for many years, went to university there, worked there, and then I moved to Britain in 2015
00:00:35 - which was very different from both the Nigerian context and, and the Polish context. And so I found it, you know, interesting how this context, you know, that there were similarities in the experiences everywhere, but also differences. And of course, Britain being the first multiracial country I've lived in Nigeria is a monoracial country. Pretty much everybody's black, pretty much. And Poland, pretty much everybody's white. So it's also a Monoracial country and Britain's first multiracial country I've lived in.
00:01:06 - around a race are discussed here much more, much more intensively and much more frequently than they are in Nigeria or in Poland for, for, you know, for obvious reasons. so there's that and, why it's discussed in a binary fashion, I think because despite the fact that Britain is a multiracial, nation, and there's definitely a much larger group of mixed race people in Britain than there is in both Nigeria and Poland, demographically,
00:01:40 - that, mixed race people, I think make up. I know that there's been a recent census, but it's under 5% of the total population of the uk. It's expanding fast, but it's not a huge number in of itself, which means most people in Britain, while there's ethnic differences in Britain, definitely amongst groups, most people in Britain will tend to be either white full stop or black full stop,
00:02:09 - or of Indian descent, full stop. And the conversation is still dominated by those groups. And so the perspectives which we have out there on race is very often literally and figuratively, you know, black and white perspectives. And, mixed race people, have not really been able, I felt to sort of articulate their perspectives from a uniquely mixed race perspective on how the experience is, you know,
00:02:41 - of someone who's a hundred percent black, for instance, if you're say, mixed black and white, it's different from the experience of someone who is a hundred percent black. It's also different from the experience of someone who is a hundred percent white. and, and, and we can discuss why, why this differences, are there, but it is a different experience yet that, you know, that that mixture is that uniquely, that unique experience or those unique experiences? Of course, it varies from individual to individual.

Exploring Mixed Race Identities in Britain

00:03:12 - by the experiences of the much larger monoracial groups. It's a very large, a group so to speak. So very often when we think about mixed race people, because the race debate itself is focused on the black white dynamic, very often the picture of a mixed race person is, you know, the offspring of a black and white parent. And so someone like myself, so there is of course that group here in the uk, but then there are also mixed race people
00:03:42 - So I also, I spoke to people who, you know, have a mother from Uganda, a father who was white British, or people who grew up here mixed black, white. But I also spoke to people who might have, you know, an Indian father and a white Scottish mother or vice versa. So there's also that mix. That's also, that's the other large significant group of mixed race people here. So you have the black white mix, then you have the Asian white mix, and then there's a third large group, of mixed race people who have no white parent in the background.
00:04:14 - and a Jamaican mother, you know, and that group is almost never talked about, or almost never factored into the whole mixed race into the whole mixed race and discussion. But they are there and their differences are also quite different from the differences of those of us who have a white parent in the background. And so these, I would say are sort of the three major groups or kinds of, of mixed race configurations, you would find here in Britain. what unites them is definitely that sense of
00:04:49 - because very often having parents from two, racial groups involves, growing up with parents from two cultures very often, you know, if you have someone like myself who, you know, Nigerian father brought up in Nigerian culture, and then you have Polish mother brought up in Polish culture, those are two quite different cultures. And I had that growing up at home. So, you know, with the, the, the, the pros and the cons of that and you know, the conflict around that,
00:05:18 - and debates over, you know, how we should live, you know, because every culture tries to offer an answer for the question of, you know, what is the good life? How should we live? What is good, what is right, what is wrong? And every culture comes up with its own variation of, of an answer to that. and when you have, you know, people in a home coming from different cultures, there can be, you know, various, more or less rigorous debates around that. And that also applies to people who've grown up, here, you know, here in Britain. And so there's that, so that, that sense, of,
00:05:51 - our experiences are somewhat different from the experience of the Monoracial group. Definitely unites mixed race people, very often that sense of being sometimes othered from the sort of, you know, major groups, that also is there. And definitely what united, the mixed race Britains I spoke to, was very often at a, an annoyance. I'd been, you know, pigeonholed, you know, into one of the major groups, you know, and, and, and expected to act in a certain way because, you know, you have a black father, so well,

Identity and Perception of Mixed Race Individuals

00:06:23 - I don't wanna quote a black way for instance, or something like that. and so, or having your identity decided for you, you know, whereby, you know, a mixed race person would say, you know, I'm, I'm this. And people say, but you know, you don't look this to me. You know, like let's say somebody might have, I dunno, a mixed race black father in the background and a white mother, and they might identify as black, for instance, or identify or as mixed race. And someone tell 'em, you know, but you don't look black, you know, or you don't look white,
00:06:54 - or you don't look Indian to me. You know? And they'd say, you know, and they'd tell me, you know, but, you know, I grew up perhaps mostly around, I don't know, English culture or around Pakistani culture, or I, or I grew up with one parent, one of my, parents of a different area of background, and I identify more with the culture of that parent. Yeah. But then I go out and I tell people I'm this, and they're like, but you know, you don't look this, you don't look that. So, so, so these were sort of common themes that emerged in the discussions. So I would say, so in Nigeria, I was definitely part
00:07:28 - who were mixed race, really very small. so there's that. So you definitely sort of stand out very strongly. And, you know, while to, to a quote unquote white eye, to a white European eye, they may look at me and, you know, see a black person, or perhaps they might see a mixed race person to a Nigerian eye. It was very clear that, this fellow must have a parent who is not Nigerian. This, you know, they see it, people see it there
00:07:58 - And so people see it and, and would often, you know, sort of ask, you know, you know, seems you have a boy, a parent who's not Nigerian, you know, who is it? You know, what's the story? What's the backstory? Et cetera. So they would ask that. So you definitely, walk around often feeling different. I mean, it's not like you think about it all the time. It's not like it's terrible experience, but it is something you're sort of aware of at the back of the mind that people do see you as different. And now, one thing I'd like to point out here is that,
00:08:30 - a an inherently negative thing. where problems arise is if people see you as a worse kind of different. Yeah. So you're not just different, but you are a worse kind of different. Now, in the Nigerian context, people did not see me as a worse kind of different. Yeah. So, you know, people would see me and you know, would talk et cetera. And because general associations with whiteness in the Nigerian context often revolve around,
00:09:01 - economic development, the west, et cetera, people generally look up to white people. If we're talking about the general population, you know, in Nigeria, because, and this is the case, I think, in many global south countries, and definitely in the poorer countries, material factors are really factors that determine your position in society. Nigeria, it's a very hierarchical society, and that h that hierarchy really pulls around sort of your material position in society. And people will generally treat you, unfortunately based on

Socioeconomic Identity and Racial Perception

00:09:33 - Yeah. So are you from the group of, you know, the, richest people, the elites in the country, then you're treated very differentially, or are you from, you know, upper middle class, or is it middle class, or are you from the majority poor population? And so how you are treated by all these classes depends a lot on that. And so sort of the associations there with, with whiteness, because people might see me, people who didn't know me, didn't know my family, didn't know, home or anything like that, who would see me, when once they position you, they say,
00:10:04 - okay. They immediately, it clicks in their mind, you know, some kind of association with wealth, with, you know, with, with, with wealth. And so they might look up to you or treat you more differentially Yeah. On, unless they, you know, start talking, find out and find out, well actually your parents aren't, aren't that aren't that wealthy, you know? so, so that could be the case. So, so that's that there, so you have those associations in Poland was the opposite case. So in Poland, I was treated definitely as different and very often a worse kind of different,
00:10:36 - I moved to Poland in the mid nineties. Country was just emerging from communism, you know, had been a closed place definitely throughout the communist per po were not used to dealing much with foreigners, you know, and, and, and perceptions generally there of Africa. So when polls would see me, you know, they'd also immediately, you know, Jim, this is, you know, not a Polish person. And so they'd want to know where I'm from. Very often they'd assume it was from Africa to them to polish people. I looked like a black person, end of story.
00:11:06 - with Africa are very negative in Poland. So generally the associations are that it's a poor place, lack of economic development, backward, et cetera. You know, some worse terms, that we could think of. and so the associations there were negative opposite from the ones in, in Nigeria in my mixed race context. And, you know, things did improve in Poland as the, you know, years went on, you know, more pole started traveling, Poland joined the eu, and you know, and things are definitely, you know, it's a definitely more open,
00:11:38 - the, in the mid nineties. so that, that I would say was sort of the distinguishing, future there, that sort of association with Africa. Africa viewed very negatively, very negatively, generally speaking by polls. and then I come here to the uk and again, different, Nigeria, Poland, one many more mixed race people around. So you're not that, you don't stand out that much, you know? So I'm, I don't walk on the streets and, you know, people look at me like, like, like, you know, something different, which is the case often in Nigeria,
00:12:11 - but not the case in the uk even though I live in Sheffield, which is not the most diverse city in Britain, but it's still so diverse, so much more diverse than the other cities that, hey, I don't stand out that much here. You know? So definitely, I'd say I feel a, a comfort in that here in Britain that definitely, I, I, I can walk on the streets, you know, freely, et cetera, and, you know, I don't feel that I start stick out like a, so a sore thump, you know? and it's not like all the time in Nigeria and,

Mixed Race Experiences Across Diverse Contexts

00:12:41 - Don't think about these things all the time until somebody points out, points it out to you that, you know, you stick out like a sore thump. But definitely here in Britain, I sort of blend in or I'd say I blend in way more easily. And there is definitely a sort of comfort and security in that. and definitely, you know, Brits, you know, have been engaging with people of different racial backgrounds, you know, for centuries now, you know, and so Brits have seen all sorts, you know? so there's also I think a generally, you know,
00:13:12 - of various backgrounds. And, you know, people will, you know, may want to know my story where I'm from, or definitely what, what I would say makes me stand out here is the Nigerian Polish mix. That's the one that people are like, wow, I haven't come across that, that that often. You know, and the Nigerian, British, a Nigerian, white British mix, you know, doesn't, you know, impress anybody here does it, does it, does it, yeah, exactly. You know, but when people hear, you know, my dad was Nigeria, my mom was Polish, they're like, what really happened? that's an interesting mix. You know?
00:13:45 - I would say, so that's, yeah, so that's, these are some of my thoughts on that. So I'm not sure if I would, say there is a sort of racial paradigm, you know, in, in the uk, and what do I mean by that? So people's experiences are very different based on their geographical locations, you know, whether they live in regions of the UK that are way more diverse, like London, for instance. So, you know, the experiences of a mixed race person
00:14:17 - how would I put it? Un unique so to speak, in the sense of they really blend in there because there's really large, community like that. But if you're growing up in, in the northeast, for instance, you know, of, of England, where which is much less diverse, then of course you stand out more. What I did try to do in the book is to speak to people from various generations and from various geographical locations. And again, of course, your socioeconomic circumstances
00:14:45 - So one clear thing that emerged was that, so I, you know, I spoke to people who'd been that first generation, who were born, following the second world war, and these were often the offspring of the children of, African American soldiers and white British mothers very often. That was sort of the first bigger generation of mixed race people. And they often had horrible experiences, not always, but often, growing up in, you know, 1950s, 1960s, Britain, however, those who were born.
00:15:17 - and eighties and nineties and, and, and two thousands definitely those say born in the two thousands who are in their twenties now. It's a very different experience from those born, you know, in the fifties or earlier on, I would say a better experience, you know, in the sense, one, there are more people like them two, generally speaking, Britain is a more tolerant society. and so their, their experiences are definitely different from that, that older generation. So that I would say is, a clear positive. and then again, if we go geographically, you know,

Mixed Race Identity and Socioeconomic Impact

00:15:50 - like I spoke to people like that, you know, it, it's a less sort of diverse place and they might, you know, spoke to me about, you know, feeling more different. There are more instances of racism again, than those who may have grown up in the more diverse parts of England. So a lot de depends on that. socioeconomic circumstances sort of, you know, also, also definitely, determined. So there's, so, so it's various stories. So I wouldn't say, you know, point to a clear sort
00:16:20 - and you know, where mixed race people fit, because again, we have those different kinds of mixed race people. So there's a mixed black white, and they, I would say are very often, sort of, you know, involved sometimes even trapped in that sort of black, white race debate, you know, around slavery, around colonialism and around the whole issue of black, white relationship that can be a sort of dominant factor in their lives. Yeah. At least it's something they can't sort
00:16:51 - whereas, there isn't such an intensive race debate. I would, I would say between, for the Asian community and, and the white community. So people I spoke to who'd have say, you know, an Indian father and a, and a white mother, if they'd grown up, say 30, 40 years ago, there would've been issues, significant ones, very often. But now sort of not really also sort of skin, if you go sort of skin color wise, people who have like an Asian parent,
00:17:25 - white to many people. And so their experience is very often their mixed richness even goes unnoticed, you know, it goes unnoticed. And so it is not really, a major factor in their lives. they're simply, you know, seen as white or sometimes people are surprised to find out they have an Indian father in the background, or an Indian mother in the background. and then there's the, the group of people who were, I said, no white parent in the background,
00:17:58 - and especially of the debate around, you know, what it is like to be mixed race. So they'd often tell me, you know, I remember I spoke to a boy, you know, son of a, I think was Jamaican mom and Indian father, and they would say, you know, there's, there's no discussion about people like me in the whole mixed race, in the whole mixed race discussion. And even, you know, when sort of there's, you know, some effort, I don't know whether it's media or something to sort of promote, or talk about, you know, mixed race people
00:18:25 - They tell me, you know, faces like mine are never shown, you know, that it's usually the faces of the mixed black, white, representative of the population or maximum mixed Asian white. But you know, there's us too and you know, and we sort of, don't fit into the paradigm in people's heads, you know, of the whole, within the whole race and my discussion. So yeah, so, so it not depends on that, on, on those factors. What I want readers to take from the book is that a, definitely, there's the uniqueness

Recognizing Unique Mixed Race Experiences

00:18:57 - I'm not saying the mixed race experience is one single experience is different for different people, but in of itself it is a standalone set of experiences, which, and I, I'd be, I'm very happy and I think the people I spoke to would be very happy if that was, you know, sort of recognized by society, that being mixed race. And I'm not saying it's a special kind of different, I'm just saying it is a different, and it would be great if, you know, society sort of, you know, realize that and realize the experiences
00:19:29 - or mixed, Asian white kid and not necessarily the experience of a mixed Asian kid or of a mixed white kid with pros and cons of all that. So one that it's a standalone set of experiences, two, that mixed race people, would appreciate not to be pigeonholed, not to have their identities decided for them. So, you know, you meet a mixed race person, you know, and, and the person, you know, I don't know to you looks quote unquote white,
00:20:01 - or identify mixed black, you know, please don't tell them, you know, but you don't, you don't look, you don't look black to me, you know, you look white to me. and, and vice versa, definitely that would be appreciated. And generally speaking, with regards to, you know, what a monoracial, society, you know, for centuries mixed race people have been such a tiny group that they've always had to adapt to monoracial society and to the norms and to the whole sort of race equation
00:20:31 - with this group growing and some estimates suggests by the end of the century, roughly a third of Brits could be mixed race, the rates at which the group is growing. it's high time. it's not just Mixed race people who are to adapt to monoracial society, but monoracial society also learn to adapt to mixed race people, you know, and again, this is not about special treatment, it's just about recognizing that this is a different kind
00:21:09 - and that's what sort of, you know, acknowledging, respecting and asking people to, you know, simply and maybe be who they are.

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