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Monetary Sanctions as a Pound of Flesh

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How does the punishing practice of monetary sanctions highlight the unequal relationship between the state and its citizens, especially the poor and marginalized?

Image courtesy of interviewee. December 16, 2024

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The speaker discusses the problematic system of monetary sanctions in the U.S. criminal legal system, which imposes various financial penalties on individuals involved in the justice system, from juveniles to serious felons. They highlight that this system disproportionately burdens low-income individuals, treating them as "liminal citizens" due to their inability to pay fines and debts, leading to significant economic, political, and social consequences.

The speaker emphasizes the economic impact of these sanctions, where poor individuals face wealth extraction that affects their ability to support families, healthcare, and other basic needs. Furthermore, nonpayment can lead to loss of voting rights, restrictions on carrying weapons, and exclusion from jury duty, perpetuating a cycle of disenfranchisement and community harm.

They argue that the punishment system is fundamentally unfair—wealthy individuals can pay off fines and move on, while the poor remain tethered to ongoing legal repercussions. This video should prompt a call for reform aimed at creating a more equitable justice system that considers individuals' ability to pay. Suggested reforms include eliminating fines for serious felonies, protecting vulnerable populations (like juveniles and the unhoused) from being burdened with debt, implementing a sliding scale for fines based on income, and decoupling driving privileges from debt obligations.

The speaker also underscores the need for transparency and data collection regarding the imposition and collection of these debts to enhance understanding and guide policy changes. Overall, they advocate for a fairer system that holds individuals accountable without economically crippling them, suggesting deeper systemic reforms to ensure justice is equally accessible to all citizens.

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I've been studying the system of monetary sanctions

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for the past 17 years,

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and it is a punishment schema within the

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U United States criminal legal system that imposes fines,

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fees, costs restitution, fiscal penalties to people

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who make contact with the criminal legal system,

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people all the way from the juvenile legal system

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to misdemeanors, traffic citations, all the way to,

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serious felonies.

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Um, and these costs can be a big burden on individuals,

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and that the whole bucket, I term as monetary sanctions,

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Protestant and Western in a Brandon Center article speak to,

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they write that the punishment describes not just

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what criminal institutions do,

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but also signifies the relationships

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between the state and its citizens.

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And, and in my work, I really write that the relationship

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between the state and the citizens is clearly characterized

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by the system of monetary sanctions where poor people are,

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are viewed as liminal citizens in the eyes of the state,

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solely because they cannot make payments to the state.

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There's a whole lot of consequences for individuals

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who aren't able to pay their fines and fees in total,

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but also regularly.

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So there's the obviously, economic impact to individuals

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where it is wealth extraction.

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It takes money away from individuals,

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who are struggling to survive.

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I've done, a number of interviews with people

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who are sentenced to debt

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and had a multi-state study

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where we interviewed over 500 people,

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and people struggle to make ends meet.

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They want to make these payments,

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but they just aren't able to.

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Um, so there's the economic impact for individuals

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and their families and their kids, right?

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Money is being taken away from, the ability

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to support children and also

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healthcare needs and households.

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Um, there's also the political impact

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'cause that individuals don't have the right to vote.

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There's a whole bunch of consequences.

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If you're not paying, you don't have the right to vote,

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you don't have the right to carry a weapon.

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You can't sit on a jury.

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Um, you're a liminal citizen solely because of that debt.

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Um, there are the community level impacts.

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We've started to do research, some of my colleagues,

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what we call debt blocks, looking at,

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census block groups

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and the debt burden that is imposed on individuals.

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And right now we're seeing correlations

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between poor communities

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and non-white communities,

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have a disproportionate debt burden that they carry.

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So it's not just individuals, their families,

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their children, but it's a whole communities

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that are disproportionately impacted.

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Um, and then there's the social

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consequences for individuals.

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They're stigmatized with this debt.

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Um, they, carry the debt until they can pay it off.

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And for many people who are unemployed

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and unhoused, they carry this debt for life

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and are constantly tethered to the criminal legal system.

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And that's the, the other bucket, this legal,

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consequence for individuals.

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Even once you've served your jail

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or prison time, your community supervision,

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everything else, that you are supposed

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To do until you pay the debt, you are still tethered

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to the criminal legal system.

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Some jurisdictions require people to regularly report

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to the court every single month,

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to report their financial situation, whether

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or not it's changed, so that, that legal tethering.

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Um, some of the work we've done from my research projects,

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has explored the, the weight, the mental weight

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that people carry, the depression, the anxiety

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that they carry because of this tethering.

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And it all circles back

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to people's inability to make payments.

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I think monetary sanctions is the clearest example

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for anyone to see that the criminal legal system works

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for two different types of populations.

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One with wealth who have means to pay,

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and people who are un, un, unable to make payment.

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So for example, someone who is wealthy,

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does the same type of crime.

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Let's say Bill Gates as someone

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who is unemployed or unhoused.

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Um, they can do the time, they can get that conviction,

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they can do the jail time.

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However, Mr. Gates can pay off his fines and fees

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and wash his hands and move forward with his life.

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Um, the person who's, unemployed

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or can't make those payments is stuck, is, is tethered to

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that criminal legal system for life.

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Um, and so it's clear example of, an unfair

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and inefficient, unjust system

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that disproportionately punishes, people who are poor,

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versus people with wealth in this country.

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Any jurisdictions, counties especially.

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And, and municipalities rely on these for-profit

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private collection agencies to collect the debt.

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The, the, county

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or city services just don't have the ability to continue

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to monitor debtors in this country,

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legal debtors in this country.

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And so they turn that, service over to, private,

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companies who want to make a profit.

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And so it can impact people

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because they, these companies can have very

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negative strategies.

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Um, tiresome, stressful,

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punitive strategies regularly calling people

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and harassing people in attempts to get

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that money can also hurt.

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It goes into your civil, debt report

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and that then punishes people on their credit work ratings.

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And so it hurts people's ability to obtain, housing,

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even apartments, but purchasing, housing, loans,

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student loans, people's ability to find employment,

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because that's, many employers look at credit ratings, very,

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very detrimental to, individuals

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who are trying to move forward.

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Uh, you know, I always, I always say that yes,

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we need punishment in the United States

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to hold people accountable when they break the law from

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traffic violations all the way up

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to serious felony, convictions.

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But we need to create a punishment system that is realistic

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and, attainable for all individuals.

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That's fair and equal for everyone

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who encounters the criminal legal system, not just those for

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that have wealth and means.

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Um, and so yes, figure out ways to hold people accountable

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but not have a system that is, is unattainable.

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So many people can never, be accountable

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for their offenses in this country

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solely because they're poor.

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There are several policy reforms.

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The the system is nuanced

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and it's, in every cracking premise

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of our criminal legal system.

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But it's not hard to figure out how to fix it.

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Um, first we have, I, I call it the punishment pie,

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particularly in this country.

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When you're convicted of felonies,

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you have a whole host of punishments.

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You have jail or prison sentences,

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you have community supervision after that or probation.

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You have community service,

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you have electronic home monitoring.

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Um, you have a whole breadth of sentences

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to hold individuals accountable.

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People, and I argue,

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and who have those types of punishments,

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should not have an additional burden of financial penalties.

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So that's one is eliminate all fines

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and fees related to serious felony convictions.

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The second one is

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that the most vulnerable in our society should not carry

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this burden of debt.

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So kids, right? Juveniles, kids

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who actually legally can't work in many situations shouldn't

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be required or their parents

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and guardians to make payment to the state.

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So kids, people who are unhoused, people

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who are mentally unstable, indigent,

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indigent should not be imposed, these fines and fees.

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So there should be some guardrails

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to protect the most vulnerable in our society.

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Um, the third is that, for municipal, the lower courts,

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there should be some sort of calibration, right?

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Where people, who are charged even for traffic,

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that should be based on people's ability to pay in.

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In many countries around the world,

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criminal legal systems use something called day funds

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where there's a, a points are given to,

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the a person's average daily wage.

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Um, and points are given to the severity of the funds.

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And then those two numbers are multiplied,

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and that's the amount that you're gonna pay.

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So if you make no money, your,

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your fiscal penalty is gonna be zero.

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So it's proportionate to both the severity of the offense,

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versus what someone can pay.

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So what Bill Gates gets charged versus what

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that un unemployed person gets charged,

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it's gonna hit them, equally.

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Um, but it sets a bar that both can pay.

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Um, so that, again, definitely calibrate.

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Um, a, a big problem too is the coupling of the,

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the inability to make payment

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and someone's right to drive in this country.

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So many people lose their driver's license.

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Um, and then so you can't get to work.

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And so then you can't pay your fines and fees,

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and you also can't bring your children to school

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and childcare and all of that.

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Um, so decoupling the loss

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of driver's licenses with the debt.

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Um, and then, two other things that might not

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Seem related, but

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but clearly are, is, is one, is,

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in this country we have seen these rashes

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of police stops

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and killing, particularly killing of people

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of color in this country.

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And I argue that part of the mechanism that allows

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for those police stops

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and those violent interactions is the system

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of monetary sanctions.

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Is law enforcement being pressured to either, one,

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find people who have warrants related to nonpayment.

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So you pull someone over hoping

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that they might have a warrant to bring them in,

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or you pull them in to give them a citation, right,

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to bring in more money.

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And so really I think how we could stop

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that cycle a bit is to limit a law enforcement's ability

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to make pretextual stops,

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these ticky tack taillight out air freshener hanging in the,

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in the rear view mirror type of stops.

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And then finally, we need data.

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We need to know what states are doing.

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We need to know how much debt is being imposed,

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how much is uncollectible?

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So I would argue that cities, states need to report

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regularly, to the public how much debt is being pos,

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how much is uncollectible, how much is being collected,

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and where is that money going, right?

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Where is it, is it going to general funds, is it going

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to judges retirement funds?

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Is it going back to law enforcement?

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We really need more transparency

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and access to data to do the research,

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to better understand the system.

00:00:00 - I've been studying the system of monetary sanctions for the past 17 years, and it is a punishment schema within the U United States criminal legal system that imposes fines, fees, costs restitution, fiscal penalties to people who make contact with the criminal legal system, people all the way from the juvenile legal system to misdemeanors, traffic citations, all the way to, serious felonies. and these costs can be a big burden on individuals,

00:00:34 - Protestant and Western in a Brandon Center article speak to, they write that the punishment describes not just what criminal institutions do, but also signifies the relationships between the state and its citizens. And, and in my work, I really write that the relationship between the state and the citizens is clearly characterized by the system of monetary sanctions where poor people are, are viewed as liminal citizens in the eyes of the state, solely because they cannot make payments to the state.

00:01:05 - who aren't able to pay their fines and fees in total, but also regularly. So there's the obviously, economic impact to individuals where it is wealth extraction. It takes money away from individuals, who are struggling to survive. I've done, a number of interviews with people who are sentenced to debt and had a multi-state study where we interviewed over 500 people, and people struggle to make ends meet. They want to make these payments, but they just aren't able to.

00:01:36 - and their families and their kids, right? Money is being taken away from, the ability to support children and also healthcare needs and households. there's also the political impact 'cause that individuals don't have the right to vote. There's a whole bunch of consequences. If you're not paying, you don't have the right to vote, you don't have the right to carry a weapon. You can't sit on a jury. you're a liminal citizen solely because of that debt. there are the community level impacts. We've started to do research, some of my colleagues,

00:02:07 - census block groups and the debt burden that is imposed on individuals. And right now we're seeing correlations between poor communities and non-white communities, have a disproportionate debt burden that they carry. So it's not just individuals, their families, their children, but it's a whole communities that are disproportionately impacted. and then there's the social consequences for individuals. They're stigmatized with this debt. they, carry the debt until they can pay it off.

00:02:38 - and unhoused, they carry this debt for life and are constantly tethered to the criminal legal system. And that's the, the other bucket, this legal, consequence for individuals. Even once you've served your jail or prison time, your community supervision, everything else, that you are supposed To do until you pay the debt, you are still tethered to the criminal legal system. Some jurisdictions require people to regularly report

00:03:10 - to report their financial situation, whether or not it's changed, so that, that legal tethering. some of the work we've done from my research projects, has explored the, the weight, the mental weight that people carry, the depression, the anxiety that they carry because of this tethering. And it all circles back to people's inability to make payments. I think monetary sanctions is the clearest example for anyone to see that the criminal legal system works

00:03:43 - One with wealth who have means to pay, and people who are un, un, unable to make payment. So for example, someone who is wealthy, does the same type of crime. Let's say Bill Gates as someone who is unemployed or unhoused. they can do the time, they can get that conviction, they can do the jail time. However, Mr. Gates can pay off his fines and fees and wash his hands and move forward with his life. the person who's, unemployed

00:04:17 - that criminal legal system for life. and so it's clear example of, an unfair and inefficient, unjust system that disproportionately punishes, people who are poor, versus people with wealth in this country. Any jurisdictions, counties especially. And, and municipalities rely on these for-profit private collection agencies to collect the debt. The, the, county

00:04:48 - to monitor debtors in this country, legal debtors in this country. And so they turn that, service over to, private, companies who want to make a profit. And so it can impact people because they, these companies can have very negative strategies. tiresome, stressful, punitive strategies regularly calling people and harassing people in attempts to get that money can also hurt.

00:05:20 - and that then punishes people on their credit work ratings. And so it hurts people's ability to obtain, housing, even apartments, but purchasing, housing, loans, student loans, people's ability to find employment, because that's, many employers look at credit ratings, very, very detrimental to, individuals who are trying to move forward. you know, I always, I always say that yes, we need punishment in the United States to hold people accountable when they break the law from

00:05:51 - to serious felony, convictions. But we need to create a punishment system that is realistic and, attainable for all individuals. That's fair and equal for everyone who encounters the criminal legal system, not just those for that have wealth and means. and so yes, figure out ways to hold people accountable but not have a system that is, is unattainable. So many people can never, be accountable

00:06:21 - solely because they're poor. There are several policy reforms. The the system is nuanced and it's, in every cracking premise of our criminal legal system. But it's not hard to figure out how to fix it. first we have, I, I call it the punishment pie, particularly in this country. When you're convicted of felonies, you have a whole host of punishments. You have jail or prison sentences, you have community supervision after that or probation. You have community service, you have electronic home monitoring. you have a whole breadth of sentences

00:06:55 - People, and I argue, and who have those types of punishments, should not have an additional burden of financial penalties. So that's one is eliminate all fines and fees related to serious felony convictions. The second one is that the most vulnerable in our society should not carry this burden of debt. So kids, right? Juveniles, kids who actually legally can't work in many situations shouldn't be required or their parents and guardians to make payment to the state.

00:07:25 - who are mentally unstable, indigent, indigent should not be imposed, these fines and fees. So there should be some guardrails to protect the most vulnerable in our society. the third is that, for municipal, the lower courts, there should be some sort of calibration, right? Where people, who are charged even for traffic, that should be based on people's ability to pay in. In many countries around the world, criminal legal systems use something called day funds

00:07:57 - the a person's average daily wage. and points are given to the severity of the funds. And then those two numbers are multiplied, and that's the amount that you're gonna pay. So if you make no money, your, your fiscal penalty is gonna be zero. So it's proportionate to both the severity of the offense, versus what someone can pay. So what Bill Gates gets charged versus what that un unemployed person gets charged, it's gonna hit them, equally. but it sets a bar that both can pay.

00:08:28 - a, a big problem too is the coupling of the, the inability to make payment and someone's right to drive in this country. So many people lose their driver's license. and then so you can't get to work. And so then you can't pay your fines and fees, and you also can't bring your children to school and childcare and all of that. so decoupling the loss of driver's licenses with the debt. and then, two other things that might not Seem related, but

00:08:58 - in this country we have seen these rashes of police stops and killing, particularly killing of people of color in this country. And I argue that part of the mechanism that allows for those police stops and those violent interactions is the system of monetary sanctions. Is law enforcement being pressured to either, one, find people who have warrants related to nonpayment. So you pull someone over hoping that they might have a warrant to bring them in,

00:09:29 - to bring in more money. And so really I think how we could stop that cycle a bit is to limit a law enforcement's ability to make pretextual stops, these ticky tack taillight out air freshener hanging in the, in the rear view mirror type of stops. And then finally, we need data. We need to know what states are doing. We need to know how much debt is being imposed, how much is uncollectible? So I would argue that cities, states need to report

00:10:20 - how much is uncollectible, how much is being collected, and where is that money going, right? Where is it, is it going to general funds, is it going to judges retirement funds? Is it going back to law enforcement? We really need more transparency and access to data to do the research, to better understand the system.

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