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Vivian McAlister discusses Russian nationalism and Ukraine’s Missing Children

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 13, 2024

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This video is a transcript of an interview discussing the serious issue of missing children in Ukraine amidst the ongoing conflict with Russia. Vivian, the interviewee, shares insights on the motivations behind the interest in this topic, referencing the International Criminal Court's indictment of Russian President Putin and Maria Lova Belova, Russia's Commissioner for Children’s Rights.

Vivian describes Belova as an unlikely figure for such charges, noting her conservative appearance and background. He delves into the history of the role of the Commissioner for Children's Rights in Russia, highlighting how the office transformed under Anna Kva, Belova's predecessor, especially after a tragedy involving children. He outlines how Kva and Belova share similar profiles, including connections to the Russian Orthodox Church.

With the war in Ukraine, Belova allegedly organized efforts to follow troops and pick up children during the invasion, claiming they were helping abandoned children and addressing their needs. He critiques her justifications as absurd in the context of war and emphasizes that there seems to be a systematic plan to adopt children from conflict zones.

Vivian discusses the historical context of international adoption in Russia, which gained prominence in the 1990s after the Soviet collapse and how recent efforts align with nationalist and Orthodox ideologies. He asserts that Putin’s administration has politicized the issue of orphans and stresses the implications for individuals involved in these adoptions, suggesting that legal repercussions could emerge as the situation evolves.

He concludes by indicating that the situation for these children is not just a matter of current war crimes but a broader moral and humanitarian issue that will persist over time, urging a more profound societal response to prevent such politicization of vulnerable lives. The interview raises concerns about ethical responsibilities and the potential for future repercussions for those involved in adopting children amid conflict.

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Here are five key points from the video:

1. **Indictment of Putin and Maria Lova Belova**: The video discusses the indictment of Russian President Vladimir Putin and Maria Lova Belova, the Commissioner for Children's Rights in Russia, highlighting the perceived discrepancy between their public appearances and the serious crimes they are charged with, especially in the convideo of the war in Ukraine.

2. **Historical Convideo of Adoption Practices**: It examines the historical practices of adoption in Russia, particularly following the collapse of the Soviet Union, where international adoption became a solution for orphanages facing funding issues. The narrative links this history to recent events where children are being collected and adopted during wartime, raising concerns about the nature and legality of these actions.

3. **Role of the Russian Orthodox Church**: The video elaborates on the involvement of the Russian Orthodox Church and its influence on the Russian government, particularly through figures like Maria Lova Belova and her predecessor Anna Kva. The church's backing plays a significant role in the policies concerning children and adoption during the current conflict, blending religious and nationalist sentiments.

4. **Legal Implications of Child Relocation**: A significant focus is on the legal ramifications of forcibly relocating Ukrainian children into Russia. The video outlines how the movement of these children across borders could constitute a crime against humanity, emphasizing that while forced adoption within a country may not be illegal, crossing borders changes that legal dynamic.

5. **Future Consequences and International Response**: The discussion also reflects on the potential long-term consequences for individuals involved in these actions, suggesting that even those who adopt children from Ukraine may face legal repercussions in the future as international accountability increases. The video warns that past lessons indicate this issue is far from resolved and may resurface in the future as more attention is given to such crimes.

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Here are some key quotes extracted from the video:

1. "Nobody is surprised that President Putin is included because he's the ultimate authority."

2. "Maria Lova Belova, uh, you know, when I saw a picture of her, it just did not fit...indicted with such a serious crime."

3. "As far as I can see wars and conflicts, people behave in a very similar fashion."

4. "Maria Lova Belova came to the job in October, 2021 as Commissioner for children's rights in Russia."

5. "Adoption is very much part of this story."

6. "The actual conspiracy takes an enormous number of people to effect."

7. "This is a church that's getting deeply involved in crimes, and they need to...And I think many of the adherents don't want this."

8. "If somebody says you adopted knowingly a Ukrainian child...you could be arrested."

9. "The second thing is, the people who have conducted this crime know that they will never, ever be free from it."

10. "This indictment has one for the children who have been taken forcibly and do not want to be where they are."

These quotes capture significant elements of the discussed topics regarding authority, individual roles in crises, adoption, and the implications of international law in the convideo of the ongoing situation involving Ukraine and Russia.

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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Nobody is surprised that President Putin is included

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because he's the ultimate authority.

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And maybe that's what the court was thinking.

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Uh, but the, the second person, Maria Lova Belova,

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you know, when I saw a picture of her, it,

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it just did not fit.

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You know, this is a very unusual person to be,

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indicted with such a serious crime.

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And, you know, the picture

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that she presents too is completely the opposite

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to that sort of thing.

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Uh, she's a young woman who dresses very conservatively,

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fashionable, maybe in the 1950s.

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But, you know, she does try to be appealing

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and fashionable,

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but not as a hard line criminal or anything.

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So I thought I should look into the background of this.

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Um, I'm an adjunct professor in the, department

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of History at Western University.

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And, this is, a job.

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I, started after retiring as a physician.

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I was a surgeon. So my training is really as a physician,

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and I look at events very, like I would look at diseases

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and how diseases affect people.

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And as far as I can see wars

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and, conflicts, people behave,

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in a very similar fashion.

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And this is probably one of the reasons we can look

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to history to see, do we, can we expect

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what they're going to do next?

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And it's

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because people respond to forces in,

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in exactly the same way.

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So I thought this is something I could look into,

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and I just used open sources, going online

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and, also whatever I could see commentary

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about this sort of thing.

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And what I found was really quite surprising for me.

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Some of it is reported and less of it is emphasized.

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But Maria Lova Belova came

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to the job in October, 2021 as Commissioner

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for children's rights, in Russia.

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And this is a presidential advisory position,

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totally within the, remit of the president is just

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to advise the president.

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And it was started about 20 years ago.

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Um, one of the early occupants

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of the office was a man called Paval Paval Astro.

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And he used, he was a lawyer

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and a kind of a friend of Medvedev,

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and he just used it as a kind of a sinecure,

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and it was kind of a non-office.

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But things changed.

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And it changed when Astro was fired

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because there was a tragedy

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when a children's outing sponsored by the, the, the office,

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ended in the deaths of about 17 children

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drowned at a, a resort on the Black Sea.

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And it was seen that it was kind of incompetent.

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So, a new person was put in place,

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and her name was Anna kva.

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And Anna kva came from Penza in,

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Russia, which is just, south of Moscow,

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and we'll talk about that in a minute.

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But Anna Kva, has,

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an interesting history.

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She was lo interested in local politics

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and then got switched to,

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national politics in Russia by declaring her adherence

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to Putin.

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And, in doing so,

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she was advised come to this office,

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but she used this office

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to change the whole character of the office.

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She's married to an orthodox priest, a priest

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of the Russian Orthodox Church, and she has a large family.

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And, she set up an advisory council within the,

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office.

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And, that office, that advisory council was stacked

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with either priests of the Russian Orthodox Church

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or with adherence of the Russian Orthodox Church.

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And they advised, Putin.

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Now, Maria Lova comes from the exact same town as

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Anna Kva from Penza.

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Ann was a local politician,

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and she seemed to have been a kind of an acolyte of Anna's

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for a while, but then she might have

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maneuvered herself ahead of Anna in some way.

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And she was, put in place in

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that office in October, 2021, while Anna went back

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and became a member of the Doon, a member of the Parliament

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and Maria Lova continued the exact same policies

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that Anna had set in place.

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Now, Maria Lova herself has a fascinating parallel,

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story to Anna kva.

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She's also married to a Russian Orthodox priest,

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and she has 18 children, quite remarkable,

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I think seven are biological children

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and the rest are adopted.

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And her most recent adopted child was, a boy

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who was taken from Marial when the city was conquered.

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So, Maria has the exact same profile

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and has the background,

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and they have been advising, Putin.

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Now, when the war started, Maria

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had an organization in place to follow the troops.

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And we know this because a meeting occurred in March,

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just a month after the invasion of the Ukraine,

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when President Putin met Maria Lova Belova.

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And I got this information just from the

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President's website.

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I mean, it's a remarkable website.

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People don't think that, you know, they think he's

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Got a, he's an evil man,

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and he's, they're up in a think he, he's be,

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he behaves very similarly to any modern leader,

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and his website is very approachable.

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But of course, you have to read it knowing that,

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his office have written it for a certain purpose.

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But nonetheless, this meeting, the transcript

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of this meeting is fully available, online.

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And while it's very stilted conversation,

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and it's designed in the Russian manner

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to cover all the points that they want to make at the thing,

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it's almost like a speech that two people,

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two people give a kind of a dance between President Putin

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and Maria Lova,

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and they discuss what has happened.

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And Maria Lova says that

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her organization followed the Russian army

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during the invasion,

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and they were ready to pick up children.

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And she tries to paint her

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that they picked up neglected children.

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But it's kind of farcical what she said.

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Uh, she said, we, we picked up children in the fields,

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in stations and in, towns,

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and she implies they were abandoned.

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And then she said, she does it for their, for their good.

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So we did it in case they needed eyeglasses or dental work.

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Now, you know, it's absurd in the middle of a war

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and in the destruction that was going on there,

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that sort of nonsense.

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Um, and the rest of the interview continues.

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Uh, but interestingly, Maria

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Lova Belova then asked President Putin to reverse

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or to sign a decree that would allow Russians

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to adopt international babies or children.

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And this is odd, you know, why is that in there?

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And then at the end, there's a description from both

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of them about what the ratification of these

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adopted, children will be.

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And they have a three phase, ratification program,

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which everybody has talked about,

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but it's clearly outlined in the President's website

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in this conversation

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between Maria Lova Bulova and President.

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I would think it's probably the, basic

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document that's used to indict them for this war crime,

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for this crime against humanity.

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Why this cha, decree to adopt the children?

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So adoption is very much part of this story,

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and it actually goes back to the 1990s.

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Uh, what happened with the collapse of the, Soviet,

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rule in Russia that not only,

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did rule collapse, but actually funding collapsed.

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You know, pensions disappeared and all this,

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and there was a huge problem in Russia.

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But the greatest problems were for institutions

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that were publicly funded.

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And one of the institutions were, orphanages.

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Now, some orphanages found a way out by offering children

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for international adoption.

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And there was a market in the 1990s

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for Russian children to be adopted.

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Uh, and it was particularly popular in America.

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And, this story came to a head

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when a United States couple had adopted two children

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from Russia, a boy and a girl,

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and the girl was a tiny bit older.

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And during their time, adapting in the United States,

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the American family became concerned that the girl might try

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and do harm to the boy who was not, a blood relative.

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They were both adopted at the same time,

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and they went to psychiatrists with and brought the girl.

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And some psychiatrists foolishly acknowledged

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that this was a risk.

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And they went to more psychiatrists tried to get help,

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and they ran out of health insurance,

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and they had this terrible concern that the girl was going

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to do harm to the boy.

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And they were staying up all night. They were losing sleep.

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And so they thought the only solution was

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to bring the girl back

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to the orphanage in Russia, which they did.

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And it made huge headlines.

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I don't know if you remember it in the time, it was just,

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cons portrayed as a callous Americans

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and all the sort of thing,

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but in Russia, there was deep,

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what is it regret?

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And this feeling that, you know,

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they had let their own children down.

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And, Kiel, who was,

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who is now patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church

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for Moscow and Allus, put out a, a,

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a missive saying that he wanted Russian Orthodox families

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to adopt Russian children

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because they had no history prior to that

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of family adoptions.

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Their history is actually of using orphanages

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for children in that situation

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and not using family adoptions.

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But Carol said, now is an opportunity

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for orthodox Christians to adopt these children

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and bring them up as orthodox Christians.

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Um, at the same time, Putin,

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issued a decree saying

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that no Russian child could be adopted

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by an international couple, and I think built into it,

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or it may have been a prior law, there is a law

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that Russians cannot adopt international children either.

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And that's where the request from Maria Lova Belova

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came to sign a decree allowing

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Russians to adopt the children.

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But for, unfortunately, for Maria Lova and bva,

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and for Putin, it's a critical

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flaw in any defense they might try,

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because they could defend themselves

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by saying, these are not Russian.

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These are not Ukrainian children, they're Russian children,

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and we are just looking after our own.

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And in interestingly, the actions that are,

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that would make, a, an international criminal court,

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indictment

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or a crime against humanity only involves moving

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the children over a border.

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None of the other actions are actually illegal.

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It's, it's astonishing that we allow this sort of thing.

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But, forced adoption could happen within the,

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a country within your own country.

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And it's not a crime against humanity.

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Moving the children across a border is,

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and by acknowledging that they had to have a decree,

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I think they've said, these are international children,

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and now we need a special decree.

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So I think it's a problem for them.

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I think it was politicized in the 1990s,

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and now with the indictments, it's irreversibly politicized.

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So, you know, it's now a matter of honor either to

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continue with the, plan to, move the children

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and to bring them up as adhe Russian adherence

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of the Orthodox Church and Russian nationalists.

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So that's irreversibly politicized.

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However, the, I think

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that was never the intent that it become politicized.

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I think they just didn't count in their calculations.

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Um, Putin issued a dec

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a call just recently, to

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women in Russia to have at least eight children.

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He thinks that's a normal Russian family now

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to have eight biological children,

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it's quite, quite extraordinary.

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It only made it kind of a footnote because it's so absurd.

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Um, but that's his mindset.

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And I think this thing actually,

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and you look at the war, it's going,

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we're looking at it sometimes in the wrong way.

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We're looking at it in terms of a strong man

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and, blotting out opposition, you know,

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armies fighting each other.

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And yet behind it all is some weird sort of

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proto religious belief that Russia,

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is greater than its current borders,

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that the Russian Orthodox Church is the religion of Russia,

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that it is naturally and socially conservative.

14:45.285 --> 14:50.035
Uh, and Putin himself made an agreement with Carol in

14:51.105 --> 14:54.085
the early two thousands that this was the way it would be,

14:54.505 --> 14:57.165
and they've both been playing off each other.

14:57.505 --> 14:59.245
So Kiel supports the war.

15:00.105 --> 15:02.965
Uh, Kiel, recently,

15:05.355 --> 15:07.755
sanctioned a priest, a Russian Orthodox priest

15:07.775 --> 15:11.755
who conducted the ceremony for Alexi Navalny,

15:11.815 --> 15:15.115
at his death, his funeral ceremony,

15:15.115 --> 15:16.555
with no reason other than that.

15:17.055 --> 15:19.835
Um, he, this man had not spoken out against the war,

15:19.855 --> 15:21.955
but Carol has also sanctioned many,

15:21.955 --> 15:23.755
many Russian Orthodox priests

15:23.895 --> 15:26.435
who have spoken out in church against the war,

15:26.935 --> 15:28.355
and they've been silenced.

15:29.015 --> 15:31.635
So there is a parallel going on. At the same time.

15:32.305 --> 15:36.675
President Putin, got involved very early on in kind

15:36.675 --> 15:39.595
of weird social things prior to the,

15:39.615 --> 15:41.275
the various wars that he's had.

15:41.655 --> 15:45.435
Um, he took on the punks and gaze for some reason.

15:45.635 --> 15:49.875
I mean, why would he do this as a pragmatic, politician?

15:49.875 --> 15:53.155
There's no reason. The only reason is that he's an adherent

15:53.255 --> 15:55.075
to this kind of belief.

15:55.415 --> 16:00.155
So I think President Putin is surrounded by a coie of,

16:00.855 --> 16:02.955
adherence of the Russian Orthodox Church

16:03.095 --> 16:06.315
who are advising him, and they're strong nationalists,

16:07.015 --> 16:10.355
and they have a, a kind of a philosophy that's,

16:10.355 --> 16:13.475
whose arguments we have to defeat rather than trying

16:13.655 --> 16:16.915
to defeat them militarily in this particular story.

16:17.335 --> 16:21.635
Uh, I think part of what I said there is that we do have

16:21.635 --> 16:25.355
to counter some of the, arguments

16:25.585 --> 16:28.595
that are coming from, the church.

16:28.775 --> 16:31.235
And now in the west, in western liberalism,

16:31.245 --> 16:33.235
we've given churches free reign.

16:33.805 --> 16:35.755
We're no longer dominated by churches,

16:35.855 --> 16:37.875
but at the same time, we're hesitant to argue

16:37.875 --> 16:39.755
with them, even at home.

16:40.295 --> 16:44.035
And I think we need to take a stronger line on this.

16:44.585 --> 16:47.835
This is a church that's getting deeply involved in crimes,

16:48.535 --> 16:50.075
and they need to,

16:50.975 --> 16:53.635
and I think many of the, a adherents don't want this.

16:54.145 --> 16:55.635
They, they do not want this.

16:55.635 --> 16:57.355
They want to be just ordinary religious people.

16:57.355 --> 17:01.235
And I know I have several, friends who have explained

17:01.235 --> 17:03.635
to me about, Russian Orthodox life,

17:03.735 --> 17:06.715
and it's a very conservative and religious life.

17:07.615 --> 17:08.715
So that's one aspect.

17:08.775 --> 17:10.995
The second aspect is that I think the things

17:10.995 --> 17:14.155
that have been set in motion are going to continue

17:14.215 --> 17:15.875
for a long, long time.

17:16.935 --> 17:19.235
If you think that we've only indicted the two leaders

17:19.415 --> 17:21.235
of this conspiracy,

17:21.895 --> 17:24.995
the actual conspiracy takes an enormous number

17:25.055 --> 17:26.915
of people to effect.

17:27.455 --> 17:30.595
You've got all the different levels below,

17:30.695 --> 17:34.315
you've got the directors of orphanages and transit camps.

17:34.315 --> 17:37.875
You've got, the commissars in local places

17:37.905 --> 17:40.755
that have then bundled the children

17:40.935 --> 17:42.035
off to different families.

17:42.055 --> 17:46.995
And even the adoptive parents, every one of them are at risk

17:47.095 --> 17:48.795
of indictment under the same

17:49.065 --> 17:50.065
Charge.

17:50.505 --> 17:52.485
And they should look to what happened

17:52.485 --> 17:53.565
after the Second World War.

17:53.565 --> 17:55.485
There was a period when we didn't do very much.

17:55.575 --> 17:58.805
There was initial war crimes, then the period not,

17:58.865 --> 18:00.645
and then suddenly there was a resurgence.

18:01.465 --> 18:02.965
And I'm rem reminded

18:02.965 --> 18:06.205
that the London Metropolitan Police used to have

18:07.145 --> 18:10.965
an international, crimes, war crimes

18:11.025 --> 18:12.765
and crimes against humanity unit.

18:12.905 --> 18:15.045
And they disbanded it in the late nineties,

18:16.155 --> 18:20.215
and they have reopened it since the Ukrainian, crisis.

18:21.395 --> 18:25.735
And their last indictment was against a man called Anthony

18:26.285 --> 18:30.375
Sauk, who was a Belarusian, who,

18:30.385 --> 18:31.495
ended up in England.

18:31.995 --> 18:34.735
And during the Second World War, as a young boy

18:35.315 --> 18:39.505
in a village, he personally killed a Jewish family,

18:40.975 --> 18:43.035
and he was accused of this crime

18:43.175 --> 18:45.035
and convicted 50 years later.

18:45.695 --> 18:47.225
So that's the lesson.

18:47.545 --> 18:51.985
I think that this indictment has one for the children

18:52.165 --> 18:53.945
who have been taken forcibly

18:53.965 --> 18:55.625
and do not want to be where they are.

18:56.055 --> 18:58.875
They know that this is a crime

18:59.095 --> 19:01.755
and that this will eventually be sorted

19:01.755 --> 19:02.835
and the people are watching.

19:03.925 --> 19:06.185
Um, the second thing is, the people

19:06.185 --> 19:09.185
who have conducted this crime know that they will never,

19:09.255 --> 19:10.465
ever be free from it.

19:12.345 --> 19:14.645
It will, it's a, it's a potential liability

19:14.785 --> 19:16.685
for them forever.

19:17.425 --> 19:21.645
If somebody says you adopted knowingly a Ukrainian child

19:21.745 --> 19:25.895
and you go on holiday in a country that, agrees

19:25.895 --> 19:28.815
with the ICC, you, I think could be arrested.

19:29.935 --> 19:33.075
Now, at the moment, nobody's going after low profile people.

19:33.905 --> 19:35.905
I mean, people want a resolution to this.

19:36.525 --> 19:39.705
Uh, and possibly the best resolution will be an end

19:39.705 --> 19:42.105
to the war on return of all the, the children.

19:42.765 --> 19:47.155
And that's probably what the Ukrainians are negotiating for.

19:47.455 --> 19:48.835
But I think this is a powerful tool.

"Examining the Indictment of Maria Lova Belova: A Historical Perspective on Authority and Child Welfare in Russia"

00:00:00 - Nobody is surprised that President Putin is included because he's the ultimate authority. And maybe that's what the court was thinking. but the, the second person, Maria Lova Belova, you know, when I saw a picture of her, it, it just did not fit. You know, this is a very unusual person to be, indicted with such a serious crime. And, you know, the picture that she presents too is completely the opposite to that sort of thing. she's a young woman who dresses very conservatively, fashionable, maybe in the 1950s. But, you know, she does try to be appealing and fashionable, but not as a hard line criminal or anything.
00:00:48 - I'm an adjunct professor in the, department of History at Western University. And, this is, a job. I, started after retiring as a physician. I was a surgeon. So my training is really as a physician, and I look at events very, like I would look at diseases and how diseases affect people. And as far as I can see wars and, conflicts, people behave, in a very similar fashion. And this is probably one of the reasons we can look to history to see, do we, can we expect what they're going to do next?
00:01:27 - because people respond to forces in, in exactly the same way. So I thought this is something I could look into, and I just used open sources, going online and, also whatever I could see commentary about this sort of thing. And what I found was really quite surprising for me. Some of it is reported and less of it is emphasized. But Maria Lova Belova came to the job in October, 2021 as Commissioner for children's rights, in Russia. And this is a presidential advisory position,
00:02:11 - to advise the president. And it was started about 20 years ago. one of the early occupants of the office was a man called Paval Paval Astro. And he used, he was a lawyer and a kind of a friend of Medvedev, and he just used it as a kind of a sinecure, and it was kind of a non-office. But things changed. And it changed when Astro was fired because there was a tragedy when a children's outing sponsored by the, the, the office, ended in the deaths of about 17 children
00:02:54 - And it was seen that it was kind of incompetent. So, a new person was put in place, and her name was Anna kva. And Anna kva came from Penza in, Russia, which is just, south of Moscow, and we'll talk about that in a minute. But Anna Kva, has, an interesting history. She was lo interested in local politics and then got switched to, national politics in Russia by declaring her adherence to Putin.
00:03:35 - she was advised come to this office, but she used this office to change the whole character of the office. She's married to an orthodox priest, a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church, and she has a large family. And, she set up an advisory council within the, office. And, that office, that advisory council was stacked with either priests of the Russian Orthodox Church or with adherence of the Russian Orthodox Church. And they advised, Putin. Now, Maria Lova comes from the exact same town as

"Maria Lova Belova: The Controversial Role of a Russian Child Rights Advocate Amidst War and Political Maneuvering"

00:04:16 - Ann was a local politician, and she seemed to have been a kind of an acolyte of Anna's for a while, but then she might have maneuvered herself ahead of Anna in some way. And she was, put in place in that office in October, 2021, while Anna went back and became a member of the Doon, a member of the Parliament and Maria Lova continued the exact same policies that Anna had set in place. Now, Maria Lova herself has a fascinating parallel, story to Anna kva.
00:05:00 - and she has 18 children, quite remarkable, I think seven are biological children and the rest are adopted. And her most recent adopted child was, a boy who was taken from Marial when the city was conquered. So, Maria has the exact same profile and has the background, and they have been advising, Putin. Now, when the war started, Maria had an organization in place to follow the troops.
00:05:40 - just a month after the invasion of the Ukraine, when President Putin met Maria Lova Belova. And I got this information just from the President's website. I mean, it's a remarkable website. People don't think that, you know, they think he's Got a, he's an evil man, and he's, they're up in a think he, he's be, he behaves very similarly to any modern leader, and his website is very approachable. But of course, you have to read it knowing that, his office have written it for a certain purpose. But nonetheless, this meeting, the transcript
00:06:23 - And while it's very stilted conversation, and it's designed in the Russian manner to cover all the points that they want to make at the thing, it's almost like a speech that two people, two people give a kind of a dance between President Putin and Maria Lova, and they discuss what has happened. And Maria Lova says that her organization followed the Russian army during the invasion, and they were ready to pick up children. And she tries to paint her that they picked up neglected children.
00:07:01 - she said, we, we picked up children in the fields, in stations and in, towns, and she implies they were abandoned. And then she said, she does it for their, for their good. So we did it in case they needed eyeglasses or dental work. Now, you know, it's absurd in the middle of a war and in the destruction that was going on there, that sort of nonsense. and the rest of the interview continues. but interestingly, Maria Lova Belova then asked President Putin to reverse or to sign a decree that would allow Russians
00:07:46 - And this is odd, you know, why is that in there? And then at the end, there's a description from both of them about what the ratification of these adopted, children will be. And they have a three phase, ratification program, which everybody has talked about, but it's clearly outlined in the President's website in this conversation between Maria Lova Bulova and President. I would think it's probably the, basic document that's used to indict them for this war crime,

"Adoption and Its Complex Legacy in Post-Soviet Russia: A Historical Perspective"

00:08:28 - Why this cha, decree to adopt the children? So adoption is very much part of this story, and it actually goes back to the 1990s. what happened with the collapse of the, Soviet, rule in Russia that not only, did rule collapse, but actually funding collapsed. You know, pensions disappeared and all this, and there was a huge problem in Russia. But the greatest problems were for institutions that were publicly funded. And one of the institutions were, orphanages.
00:09:11 - for international adoption. And there was a market in the 1990s for Russian children to be adopted. and it was particularly popular in America. And, this story came to a head when a United States couple had adopted two children from Russia, a boy and a girl, and the girl was a tiny bit older. And during their time, adapting in the United States, the American family became concerned that the girl might try and do harm to the boy who was not, a blood relative.
00:09:53 - and they went to psychiatrists with and brought the girl. And some psychiatrists foolishly acknowledged that this was a risk. And they went to more psychiatrists tried to get help, and they ran out of health insurance, and they had this terrible concern that the girl was going to do harm to the boy. And they were staying up all night. They were losing sleep. And so they thought the only solution was to bring the girl back to the orphanage in Russia, which they did. And it made huge headlines. I don't know if you remember it in the time, it was just, cons portrayed as a callous Americans
00:10:33 - but in Russia, there was deep, what is it regret? And this feeling that, you know, they had let their own children down. And, Kiel, who was, who is now patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church for Moscow and Allus, put out a, a, a missive saying that he wanted Russian Orthodox families to adopt Russian children because they had no history prior to that of family adoptions. Their history is actually of using orphanages for children in that situation
00:11:15 - But Carol said, now is an opportunity for orthodox Christians to adopt these children and bring them up as orthodox Christians. at the same time, Putin, issued a decree saying that no Russian child could be adopted by an international couple, and I think built into it, or it may have been a prior law, there is a law that Russians cannot adopt international children either. And that's where the request from Maria Lova Belova came to sign a decree allowing
00:11:57 - But for, unfortunately, for Maria Lova and bva, and for Putin, it's a critical flaw in any defense they might try, because they could defend themselves by saying, these are not Russian. These are not Ukrainian children, they're Russian children, and we are just looking after our own. And in interestingly, the actions that are, that would make, a, an international criminal court, indictment or a crime against humanity only involves moving the children over a border.

"Political Manipulation and the Consequences of Forced Adoption in the Context of Russian Orthodoxy"

00:12:38 - It's, it's astonishing that we allow this sort of thing. But, forced adoption could happen within the, a country within your own country. And it's not a crime against humanity. Moving the children across a border is, and by acknowledging that they had to have a decree, I think they've said, these are international children, and now we need a special decree. So I think it's a problem for them. I think it was politicized in the 1990s, and now with the indictments, it's irreversibly politicized. So, you know, it's now a matter of honor either to continue with the, plan to, move the children
00:13:22 - of the Orthodox Church and Russian nationalists. So that's irreversibly politicized. However, the, I think that was never the intent that it become politicized. I think they just didn't count in their calculations. Putin issued a dec a call just recently, to women in Russia to have at least eight children. He thinks that's a normal Russian family now to have eight biological children,
00:14:01 - It only made it kind of a footnote because it's so absurd. but that's his mindset. And I think this thing actually, and you look at the war, it's going, we're looking at it sometimes in the wrong way. We're looking at it in terms of a strong man and, blotting out opposition, you know, armies fighting each other. And yet behind it all is some weird sort of proto religious belief that Russia, is greater than its current borders, that the Russian Orthodox Church is the religion of Russia,
00:14:45 - and Putin himself made an agreement with Carol in the early two thousands that this was the way it would be, and they've both been playing off each other. So Kiel supports the war. Kiel, recently, sanctioned a priest, a Russian Orthodox priest who conducted the ceremony for Alexi Navalny, at his death, his funeral ceremony, with no reason other than that. he, this man had not spoken out against the war, but Carol has also sanctioned many,
00:15:23 - who have spoken out in church against the war, and they've been silenced. So there is a parallel going on. At the same time. President Putin, got involved very early on in kind of weird social things prior to the, the various wars that he's had. he took on the punks and gaze for some reason. I mean, why would he do this as a pragmatic, politician? There's no reason. The only reason is that he's an adherent to this kind of belief. So I think President Putin is surrounded by a coie of, adherence of the Russian Orthodox Church
00:16:07 - and they have a, a kind of a philosophy that's, whose arguments we have to defeat rather than trying to defeat them militarily in this particular story. I think part of what I said there is that we do have to counter some of the, arguments that are coming from, the church. And now in the west, in western liberalism, we've given churches free reign. We're no longer dominated by churches, but at the same time, we're hesitant to argue with them, even at home. And I think we need to take a stronger line on this.

"Consequences of the Conspiracy: The Ongoing Risks and Future Remnants of Indictments in the Context of Ukrainian Children"

00:16:48 - and they need to, and I think many of the, a adherents don't want this. They, they do not want this. They want to be just ordinary religious people. And I know I have several, friends who have explained to me about, Russian Orthodox life, and it's a very conservative and religious life. So that's one aspect. The second aspect is that I think the things that have been set in motion are going to continue for a long, long time. If you think that we've only indicted the two leaders of this conspiracy, the actual conspiracy takes an enormous number
00:17:27 - You've got all the different levels below, you've got the directors of orphanages and transit camps. You've got, the commissars in local places that have then bundled the children off to different families. And even the adoptive parents, every one of them are at risk of indictment under the same Charge. And they should look to what happened after the Second World War. There was a period when we didn't do very much. There was initial war crimes, then the period not, and then suddenly there was a resurgence. And I'm rem reminded that the London Metropolitan Police used to have
00:18:11 - and crimes against humanity unit. And they disbanded it in the late nineties, and they have reopened it since the Ukrainian, crisis. And their last indictment was against a man called Anthony Sauk, who was a Belarusian, who, ended up in England. And during the Second World War, as a young boy in a village, he personally killed a Jewish family, and he was accused of this crime and convicted 50 years later. So that's the lesson.
00:18:52 - who have been taken forcibly and do not want to be where they are. They know that this is a crime and that this will eventually be sorted and the people are watching. the second thing is, the people who have conducted this crime know that they will never, ever be free from it. It will, it's a, it's a potential liability for them forever. If somebody says you adopted knowingly a Ukrainian child and you go on holiday in a country that, agrees with the ICC, you, I think could be arrested.
00:19:47 - I mean, people want a resolution to this. and possibly the best resolution will be an end to the war on return of all the, the children. And that's probably what the Ukrainians are negotiating for. But I think this is a powerful tool.

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