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Amanda Cahill-Ripley discusses the value-added of addressing poverty and related violations of economic, social and cultural rights (ESCRs) using alternative and additional ‘justice’ mechanisms drawn from the practice of transitional justice, in particular truth and reconciliation commissions (TRCs).

Image courtesy of interviewee. May 8, 2024

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This video video discusses the implications of austerity measures instituted after the 2008 financial crisis, particularly their negative effects on vulnerable populations in the UK and Europe. The author, a human rights lawyer, emphasizes the importance of recognizing economic, social, and cultural rights alongside civil and political rights, noting that rights related to adequate living standards—such as food, housing, and education—are equally critical.

The discussion highlights the dual nature of poverty as both a cause and a consequence of human rights violations, exacerbated by cuts to social support and benefits. It also points to the struggles faced by working individuals who are impacted by pay freezes and increased living costs. Traditional judicial mechanisms have proven limited in addressing the widespread nature of these issues, suggesting a need for broader and more effective approaches to justice.

To tackle poverty, the text introduces the concept of Poverty Truth Commissions, which draw from community-based reconciliation models. These commissions empower individuals with lived experiences of poverty to share their truths and influence policymakers, fostering changes that address their unique challenges. This video video notes that these commissions have grown across the UK, but advocates for incorporating a human rights framework into their work to further empower communities and strengthen advocacy efforts.

The author concludes by expressing the desire for research and training on economic and social rights to enhance the commissions' impact, noting positive developments in places like Scotland where these rights are being integrated into domestic law.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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It was really after the financial crisis, around 2008.

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And we saw, you know, the imposition of austerity measures

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taking hold, not just in the UK but across Europe.

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And as a human rights lawyer, we're starting

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to see the impact of these austerity measures more

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and more on vulnerable populations.

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So really we were looking at this kind of picture

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of deepening poverty

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and thinking, okay,

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what can be done about this from a human rights perspective?

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So that was really the context for the paper and, and,

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and trying to think about, you know,

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what can human rights really bring to this, to this,

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worsening situation, right?

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So when we talk about economic, social

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and cultural rights, what we're talking about is, it,

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the clues in the name rights of an economic,

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social and cultural nature.

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But when we tend to think of human rights, most people tend

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to think about what we call civil and political rights.

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So things like the right to vote or freedom from torture.

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But we have this set of rights

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that are also embedded in international law.

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And these, include things like the right

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to an adequate standard of living, which is the right

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to food, the right to housing, the right

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to water things like the right to an education.

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So we have this other set of rights, and,

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and they're really, they can be known as basic rights

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or subsistence rights, but they're really just as important

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and just as legally, codified as

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what most people think of human rights as.

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So if we think about the, the nature of these rights

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around food and water

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and material goods, we can see

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that if we look at poverty from a human rights perspective,

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we are talking about actually the denial of the enjoyment

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of those rights by certain members of the population.

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So it tends to affect the most vulnerable, it tends

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to be those, those people

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that are already vulnerable in society,

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and maybe experiencing poverty, their, their

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situation can be worsened.

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So it, it's, it's poverty is really both a cause

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of human rights violations, but also a consequence of them.

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So you've got this, this two-sided

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relationship with poverty.

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Yeah, so, so with the austerity measures, of course,

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we've seen that, the state withdraw,

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kinds of, social support for people

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or limit benefits.

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So there's lots of consequences of austerity.

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So things like the disability living allowance was reduced,

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council tax benefit was abolished,

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the bedroom tax was introduced,

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and all of these different, changes to benefits are,

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are impacting those that already suffering from,

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from poverty and,

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and, the lower scale, if you like, of the income scale.

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But it's also impacted on,

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on the working, on working people.

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So it's not just a, a question of benefits,

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it's also impacting on those people that,

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so you're seeing an increase

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In the, the working poor as well, for example,

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public sector pay freezes.

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So it becomes more and more difficult even for those working

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to, to provide for themselves and their families.

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When we think about how human rights have, have tried

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to address these austerity measures so far, we see a lot of

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what we would know as judicial mechanisms

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or quasi-judicial mechanisms that have dealt with this, say,

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at a UN level or at a regional human rights court level,

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like the European Convention of Human Rights

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and the European Court,

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and its sister committee,

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the European Committee on Social Rights,

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and they deal with, you know,

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individual cases or group cases.

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And what struck us at this point was that, you know, the,

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the reach of these traditional

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legal mechanisms is very individualized.

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So when you are talking about large sectors

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of the population that have suffered

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or are suffering from these violations, how can,

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how can we be effective in terms

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of bringing justice for them?

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Um, and it's about having that wider reach.

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So thinking about this, we, we very much think

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as human rights lawyers about criminal justice

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and criminal justice, and it underpins most approaches

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to dealing with human rights violations.

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But we wanted to think more outside of that box

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and think about what other forms of justice are there.

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So for example, social justice or restorative justice.

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So this is where we,

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draw very much in the paper upon the idea of truth telling.

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Um, and we take this really from transitional justice,

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and that is justice mechanisms

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that have been put in place following either a conflict,

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and trying to move towards peace

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or following political repression

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and a change in, in government.

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So we took the ideas of that truth telling

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and that more restorative idea of justice

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and applied it to the poverty situation.

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So that's, that's the kind

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of alternative justice that we looked at.

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The obvious place to start then

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with tackling poverty was the growth

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of this new body called,

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the Poverty Truth Commissions.

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Now, the Poverty Truth Commission have a lot in common with

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what are known as community-based, truth

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and Reconciliation Commissions.

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And the idea first rung up actually in the USA

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and it was something that came from a grassroots response

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to racial injustice.

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So there are lots of different examples

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that we draw on in the paper,

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but the Poverty Truth Commission is really the first time we

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see it in the UK context.

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So the Poverty Truth Commission's overarching aim

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is based on this idea, obviously of tackling poverty

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and making it, trying to, trying to address it

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and change policy and make it better for those people

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that have that lived experience of poverty.

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But their motto is taken from the South African Truth

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and Reconciliation Commission,

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and it is nothing about us, without us is for us.

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So really taking this idea of it being led

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by the community that are most affected.

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And the idea is that those people get a chance to

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tell the truth about their experiences, to share that truth,

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to talk to people, in positions of power, whether

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that be local government, or,

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or, their MP or whoever it is to try

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and influence that debate to try

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and drive change within their own communities.

06:47.995 --> 06:50.615
So we see the first, the first Truth Commission was actually

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set up in Glasgow, so it was back in 2009,

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and it was a, a localized response to some of the worst,

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poverty and some of the social housing in Glasgow.

07:02.955 --> 07:05.935
Um, and they worked on three key areas,

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which may not be obvious to people, which was

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firstly challenging stereotypes

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and stigma around poverty, overcoming violence

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within the community.

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That was a consequence of, of stress in the community,

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but also on kinship care, which was where you had a lot of,

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of families relying on grandparents

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or extended family to look after children

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because they were trying to work four

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or five jobs to try and make ends meet.

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So, quite surprising, I think to some people

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what those priorities were.

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And, and what came out of that was, yes, we really do need

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to hear from the voices of the people

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that are experiencing this,

07:47.305 --> 07:50.305
because I think if a, a group had sat down perhaps

07:50.325 --> 07:51.465
of experts and said,

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what are the priorities in tackling poverty?

07:53.855 --> 07:56.505
They wouldn't have come up with the same priorities.

07:57.525 --> 07:58.945
So that's where it came from,

07:59.285 --> 08:02.505
and it's grown across, across the UK now.

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I think there are now 27 Poverty Truth commissions

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across the United Kingdom.

08:06.885 --> 08:09.705
That's even more than when we, wrote the paper.

08:10.525 --> 08:14.545
Um, and they're all, they're all, now connected

08:14.545 --> 08:16.945
through a new Poverty Truth network as well,

08:17.275 --> 08:19.305
which is seeking to coordinate the work

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of all these different, truth commissions.

08:22.205 --> 08:23.345
The first thing I should say is

08:23.345 --> 08:25.985
that Poverty Truth Commissions are doing excellent work.

08:26.565 --> 08:30.945
Um, and, and the paper By by No Means is, is trying to say

08:30.945 --> 08:32.225
that they're not doing excellent work.

08:32.285 --> 08:34.225
So I need to clarify that first of all.

08:35.165 --> 08:38.065
But what we are arguing the paper very much is

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that at the moment they don't tend to use

08:41.385 --> 08:44.345
a human rights framework in their campaigning,

08:44.345 --> 08:45.545
in their advocacy.

08:46.605 --> 08:50.025
And we think that it would be really helpful

08:50.445 --> 08:53.545
and more transformative if they could use a human

08:53.545 --> 08:54.745
rights lens as part

08:54.745 --> 08:57.085
Of their work with communities.

08:57.475 --> 09:00.765
Because by using economic, social,

09:00.825 --> 09:03.365
and cultural rights, we already have a legal framework.

09:03.905 --> 09:05.365
And that can be empowering

09:05.365 --> 09:09.125
because you're not just saying, I need, you know,

09:09.285 --> 09:12.805
a right to food, you're saying it's my entitlement.

09:12.975 --> 09:16.965
There is a duty on the state to provide adequate food.

09:17.465 --> 09:22.065
So by using economic and social rights, it's transformative.

09:22.065 --> 09:25.705
Because it's empowering, it takes away that charitable

09:26.495 --> 09:27.585
framework,

09:27.645 --> 09:29.625
and makes it more about entitlement

09:29.625 --> 09:31.185
within a legal framework.

09:32.285 --> 09:34.385
So what we would really like to do is

09:34.385 --> 09:35.985
to do some more research to work

09:35.985 --> 09:39.745
with Poverty Truth Commissions, to give them training

09:40.165 --> 09:41.185
around economic

09:41.205 --> 09:43.865
and social rights around what their rights are

09:44.645 --> 09:47.145
and how they can use them, around

09:47.145 --> 09:51.145
what the UK's current obligations are under international

09:51.205 --> 09:53.185
law, because they do have obligations.

09:54.015 --> 09:56.865
Unfortunately, we don't have those obligations in our

09:57.105 --> 09:59.345
domestic law in England, but we,

10:00.005 --> 10:03.025
but we see in the devolved nations really positive

10:03.075 --> 10:04.305
steps to develop this.

10:04.365 --> 10:08.185
So, for example, Scotland have just passed the Human rights

10:08.185 --> 10:11.345
bill, which will incorporate economic, social,

10:11.345 --> 10:13.265
and cultural rights into the domestic legal

10:13.325 --> 10:14.785
system in Scotland.

10:15.165 --> 10:18.425
So there are lots of ways which we could strengthen the work

10:18.425 --> 10:21.585
of the Poverty Truth Commissions if we apply this legal

10:21.735 --> 10:22.025
lens.

Human Rights and Austerity's Impact on Poverty

00:00:00 - It was really after the financial crisis, around 2008. And we saw, you know, the imposition of austerity measures taking hold, not just in the UK but across Europe. And as a human rights lawyer, we're starting to see the impact of these austerity measures more and more on vulnerable populations. So really we were looking at this kind of picture of deepening poverty and thinking, okay, what can be done about this from a human rights perspective?
00:00:33 - and trying to think about, you know, what can human rights really bring to this, to this, worsening situation, right? So when we talk about economic, social and cultural rights, what we're talking about is, it, the clues in the name rights of an economic, social and cultural nature. But when we tend to think of human rights, most people tend to think about what we call civil and political rights. So things like the right to vote or freedom from torture. But we have this set of rights
00:01:04 - And these, include things like the right to an adequate standard of living, which is the right to food, the right to housing, the right to water things like the right to an education. So we have this other set of rights, and, and they're really, they can be known as basic rights or subsistence rights, but they're really just as important and just as legally, codified as what most people think of human rights as. So if we think about the, the nature of these rights
00:01:33 - and material goods, we can see that if we look at poverty from a human rights perspective, we are talking about actually the denial of the enjoyment of those rights by certain members of the population. So it tends to affect the most vulnerable, it tends to be those, those people that are already vulnerable in society, and maybe experiencing poverty, their, their situation can be worsened. So it, it's, it's poverty is really both a cause
00:02:07 - So you've got this, this two-sided relationship with poverty. Yeah, so, so with the austerity measures, of course, we've seen that, the state withdraw, kinds of, social support for people or limit benefits. So there's lots of consequences of austerity. So things like the disability living allowance was reduced, council tax benefit was abolished, the bedroom tax was introduced,
00:02:40 - are impacting those that already suffering from, from poverty and, and, the lower scale, if you like, of the income scale. But it's also impacted on, on the working, on working people. So it's not just a, a question of benefits, it's also impacting on those people that, so you're seeing an increase In the, the working poor as well, for example, public sector pay freezes. So it becomes more and more difficult even for those working

Rethinking Justice in Austerity Contexts

00:03:10 - When we think about how human rights have, have tried to address these austerity measures so far, we see a lot of what we would know as judicial mechanisms or quasi-judicial mechanisms that have dealt with this, say, at a UN level or at a regional human rights court level, like the European Convention of Human Rights and the European Court, and its sister committee, the European Committee on Social Rights, and they deal with, you know, individual cases or group cases.
00:03:45 - the reach of these traditional legal mechanisms is very individualized. So when you are talking about large sectors of the population that have suffered or are suffering from these violations, how can, how can we be effective in terms of bringing justice for them? and it's about having that wider reach. So thinking about this, we, we very much think
00:04:14 - and criminal justice, and it underpins most approaches to dealing with human rights violations. But we wanted to think more outside of that box and think about what other forms of justice are there. So for example, social justice or restorative justice. So this is where we, draw very much in the paper upon the idea of truth telling. and we take this really from transitional justice,
00:04:46 - that have been put in place following either a conflict, and trying to move towards peace or following political repression and a change in, in government. So we took the ideas of that truth telling and that more restorative idea of justice and applied it to the poverty situation. So that's, that's the kind of alternative justice that we looked at. The obvious place to start then with tackling poverty was the growth of this new body called,
00:05:19 - Now, the Poverty Truth Commission have a lot in common with what are known as community-based, truth and Reconciliation Commissions. And the idea first rung up actually in the USA and it was something that came from a grassroots response to racial injustice. So there are lots of different examples that we draw on in the paper, but the Poverty Truth Commission is really the first time we see it in the UK context.
00:05:52 - is based on this idea, obviously of tackling poverty and making it, trying to, trying to address it and change policy and make it better for those people that have that lived experience of poverty. But their motto is taken from the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and it is nothing about us, without us is for us. So really taking this idea of it being led

Empowering Voices: The Poverty Truth Commission

00:06:23 - And the idea is that those people get a chance to tell the truth about their experiences, to share that truth, to talk to people, in positions of power, whether that be local government, or, or, their MP or whoever it is to try and influence that debate to try and drive change within their own communities. So we see the first, the first Truth Commission was actually set up in Glasgow, so it was back in 2009,
00:06:58 - poverty and some of the social housing in Glasgow. and they worked on three key areas, which may not be obvious to people, which was firstly challenging stereotypes and stigma around poverty, overcoming violence within the community. That was a consequence of, of stress in the community, but also on kinship care, which was where you had a lot of,
00:07:27 - or extended family to look after children because they were trying to work four or five jobs to try and make ends meet. So, quite surprising, I think to some people what those priorities were. And, and what came out of that was, yes, we really do need to hear from the voices of the people that are experiencing this, because I think if a, a group had sat down perhaps of experts and said, what are the priorities in tackling poverty? They wouldn't have come up with the same priorities.
00:07:59 - and it's grown across, across the UK now. I think there are now 27 Poverty Truth commissions across the United Kingdom. That's even more than when we, wrote the paper. and they're all, they're all, now connected through a new Poverty Truth network as well, which is seeking to coordinate the work of all these different, truth commissions. The first thing I should say is that Poverty Truth Commissions are doing excellent work. and, and the paper By by No Means is, is trying to say
00:08:32 - So I need to clarify that first of all. But what we are arguing the paper very much is that at the moment they don't tend to use a human rights framework in their campaigning, in their advocacy. And we think that it would be really helpful and more transformative if they could use a human rights lens as part Of their work with communities. Because by using economic, social, and cultural rights, we already have a legal framework.
00:09:05 - because you're not just saying, I need, you know, a right to food, you're saying it's my entitlement. There is a duty on the state to provide adequate food. So by using economic and social rights, it's transformative. Because it's empowering, it takes away that charitable framework, and makes it more about entitlement within a legal framework. So what we would really like to do is

Strengthening Poverty Truth Commissions through Rights

00:09:35 - with Poverty Truth Commissions, to give them training around economic and social rights around what their rights are and how they can use them, around what the UK's current obligations are under international law, because they do have obligations. Unfortunately, we don't have those obligations in our domestic law in England, but we, but we see in the devolved nations really positive steps to develop this. So, for example, Scotland have just passed the Human rights
00:10:21 - and cultural rights into the domestic legal system in Scotland. So there are lots of ways which we could strengthen the work of the Poverty Truth Commissions if we apply this legal lens.

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