War and memory in ancient Greece: Phokis, Thessaly and Persia

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What were the two stratagems employed by the Phokians, as described by Herodotos, and what were the outcomes of these tactics?

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What were the two stratagems employed by the Phokians, as described by Herodotos, and what were the outcomes of these tactics?

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This video discusses various events related to war memory and conflicts in ancient Greece. It touches upon the Persian invasion, the battles with the Thessalians, the sacking of cities, and the aftermath of defeat. There is also an exploration of how historical events were remembered and interpreted by subsequent generations. The impact of these events is highlighted, showing how they influenced future conflicts and power dynamics in Greece. Additionally, the concept of memory management is discussed, examining how societies manage memories of defeat and the narratives they create to explain past events.

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Based on the video you , here are 5 key points that stand out:

1. **Persian Invasion of Greece:** The video describes the Persian invasion of Greece in around 480 BC, led by Xerxes. The Persians invaded central Greece and attacked various Greek cities, burning them and causing destruction. The Spartans famously defended the pass at Thermopylae against the Persians.

2. **Foin League:** The Foin League, consisting of around 20 small towns in Phocis, opposed the Persians during the invasion, even though many other neighboring regions had sided with the Persians. The Foin League was relatively new, having been formed in the late sixth century, and their decision to oppose the Persians is highlighted as a gutsy but perhaps ultimately imprudent move.

3. **Memory of Defeat:** The video delves into how the Foin people managed the memories of their defeat by the Persians. Various strategies that other nations have used, like blaming a previous regime or internal factors for failure, are discussed. The Foin people are portrayed as grappling with their defeat and seeking explanations for their disastrous decisions.

4. **Mythology and Explanation:** The Foin people, facing defeat and embarrassment at the hands of the Persians, may have created myths and stories to explain their situation. Blaming the Sallians, a northern Greek group that allied with the Persians, may have served as a way to deflect attention from their own failures and possibly mythical victories were concocted to rewrite their history.

5. **Conflict and Seizure of Delphi:** In the mid-fourth century, the Foin people engaged in political conflicts with the Sallians and the Boeotians, eventually leading them to seize control of the sanctuary at Delphi. The hatred towards the Sallians may have influenced their actions, including melting down treasures from the sanctuary during a decade-long conflict from 356 BC to 346 BC. This conflict ultimately proved to be disastrous for the Foin people.

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Here are some key quotes from the video you :
1. "Xerxes invaded Greece... The Greeks famously tried to defend the Mapai, against the Persians. This is where the Spartan 300 died."
2. "But the people they caught, they killed the women they raped according to Ous. They raped them until they died."
3. "when they're regarding the path around the mountain, the Persian Immortals came up that path. The FNS heard them coming and retreated up a hill, preparing Ous tells us to sell their lives dearly."
4. "So what we're told then, what ous tells us in an account... he tells us that the Sallians... came in with the Persians as their allies and directed them to burn all these folk in cities because the sallians held a particular grudge against the Fian because of these two battles, which had happened not long before."
5. "But it also helps solve the question of why they were in this position in the first place, because Ous tells us as though it's his own opinion. I think if the salient had fought against the Persians But since the salient were on the Persian side, the Fons, because they hated them, they, they stood against the Persian."

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It was the fifth of, November.

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We are talking about war memory in central Greece,

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five 40 London time.

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Okay, let's kick off a broad question.

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So effectively, what was the context of this piece?

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Okay, I, I was looking in particular at a couple

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of stories that Ous tells us in his account

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of the Persian invasion of Greece and four 80 bbc.

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So he tells us these two stories about events,

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which he said happened not many years before.

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So it's fairly vague actually.

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And they relate to a suppose invasion of

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focus in central Greece by the Alians from Northern Greece.

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And I'm wondering actually, perhaps what I'm about

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to say will make a lot more sense if I show your map.

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So I will try and just share that if I now can.

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This is where they will,

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wait, but no, I've got to make that,

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I've gotta maximize it, haven't I?

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Okay. Uh, can you see the map now?

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Great. Okay.

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So Xerxes invaded Greece

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for reasons which we don't need to go into.

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Uh, he arrived down here at Thei in

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around August four 80 bc

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and the Greeks famously tried to defend the Mapai,

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against, the Persians.

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Uh, this is where the Spartan 300 died.

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Uh, the FNS were involved in that defense of the Mapai,

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and but not very gloriously.

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They were meant to guard the pass, which went

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around the Greek position, but they failed to do that.

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And so the, the Greeks were massacred by the Persians

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'cause they could get in behind them.

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After that, Xerxes marched over the hills,

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over these passes into central Greece

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and came down through focus.

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And all the little flame signs are Fian cities,

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which the Persians burnt.

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Uh, they sacked every city they could find.

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They pillaged the countryside.

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They no doubt took any food stuff so they could find,

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or animals, because you have,

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they had a big army on the march to feed,

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they killed any stragglers.

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Most of the folk ins had managed to,

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escape up onto Mount Panasas here and,

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or across the, the water, in fact, to places like,

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the North coast of the Paese.

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But the people they caught, they killed the women.

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They raped according to Ous.

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They raped them until they died.

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Uh, it's a very, very grim scene.

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And the situation though was that the Fian

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had been the one group of people in this part of Greece

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who had stood up against the Persians.

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Most of the other people around them, everybody north

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of the Mapai, even these, these group here,

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the Dorians just to the west of Focus

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and the Byoc oceans, most of the Byoc oceans,

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especially Thebans to the East,

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had all gone over to the Persians.

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The Ians were rather exposed as the one group in this part

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of the world who had stood up against the Persians, helped

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to defend them ly, but not done it very gloriously.

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And what we're told is that, when,

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they were guarding the path around the mountain,

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the Persian Immortals came up that path.

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The folk ins heard them coming and retreated up a hill.

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Uh, preparing Ous tells us to sell their lives dearly.

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But the Persian commander, Ani thought, well,

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they're up a hill now, and just pressed on.

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So he simply bypassed them.

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So they failed to defend the, the path

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that they're meant to be defending.

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So what we're told then, what ous tells us in an account,

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which was probably written anywhere between four 40

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and four 20 BC So, you know, 40 to 60 years

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after the event, he tells us that the salient, the people

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who came from northern Greece,

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and actually just off the map, you have

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to imagine the next big area off the map, the Sallians,

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came in with the Persians as their allies

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and directed them to burn all these folk in cities

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because the sallians held a particular grudge against the

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Ians because of these two battles,

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which had happened not long before.

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Now the battles are rather dreamlike,

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and to be honest, I think they're folk tales.

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But, in one, a group of 600 folk ins,

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covered themselves in gypsum so that they,

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they were whitened

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and made a night attack on a salian position,

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and basically under orders to kill everybody who wasn't,

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didn't have gypsum on their bodies.

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In the other one, the fns were meant to have planted pots

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and foray under, just under the surface of the earth in one

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of the passes into focus.

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And the salient cavalry all broke their legs in these pots.

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So they're sort of cute stories of war,

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but, how, you know,

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how much we should believe the detail,

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is a real question.

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Uh,

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So the folk at this stage,

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there were a United State.

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Uh, there are about 20 small towns.

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There was no single preeminent town in focus,

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but they had formed themselves into a coin on, into a,

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a league sometime in the late sixth century.

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And we know it was around then,

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because that's when they first produce common coinage.

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So they're fairly new.

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And you do have to ask why did they decide

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to oppose the Persians?

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That was a very gutsy thing to do in the situation.

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But, maybe in retrospect, not so sensible.

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Uh, I think perhaps they felt they wanted

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to take a part in this great event.

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They were, you know, they united politically

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fairly recently.

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It's a bit like Australians actually my own country.

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Uh, when World War I came along,

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Australia had been a united country for 14 or 15 years.

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And we are very keen to go

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and fight initially Gallipoli later on the Western front

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to prove ourselves, to prove that we were a prop nation

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because, we've been granted independence

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by an act of the British Parliament.

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We'd never had to fight for our independence.

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So it seemed that now we could prove ourselves in war.

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And I think it's a very sad state of affairs

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that human beings feel

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that proving themselves in war is a necessary thing.

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So perhaps the FNS just wanted

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to take part in these great deeds,

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and perhaps they thought of themselves as really Greek

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as really, we have no way of knowing.

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Uh, all we can know is that afterwards

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they must have wondered why in hell's name did we do that?

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Because they had all their cities burned

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and the these terrible results.

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You can ask the second question. Yeah.

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Well, I I, I, I recognize that the point is, Peter,

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I think we're gonna have to come off the map if you

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can unshare the map.

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Um, brilliant answer though.

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I'm gonna ask you about whether there was folk stories

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of any empirical backing in terms of the evidence.

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Yeah. Um, but have I,

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Have I Yeah, yeah, please.

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It's tricky. Have I done

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It? No, you haven't.

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You have now.

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But by the way, that was lovely. And, yeah,

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the map, huge effect.

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Really good answer. Okay, well it's, so question two then.

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Is there any archeological

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epigraphic evidence for all of this?

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Or do we just sort of fall back? No story.

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Well, remarkably little really, especially

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for stories which people have

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been a bit inclined to believe.

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Several authors, talk about the

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fns having dedicated statues in various sanctuaries,

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especially Delphi, but also another one called Abai,

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to commemorate these events.

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And Ous tells us that they,

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after one of these battles, they captured,

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there were 4,000 salian dead,

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and they dedicated 4,000 shields in these two sanctuaries.

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Now, there should be evidence of that,

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but frankly, there isn't.

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Uh, there's evidence of statues possibly.

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And the trouble is, as always, in Greek history,

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the inscriptions are fragmentary and so forth,

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but possibly dedicated by the Ians at Delphi

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commemorating a victory over the Sallians.

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But the problem is these statues,

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judging from the letter forms of the inscriptions,

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are almost certainly dedicated in the later fourth century

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bc so like 150 years after this event.

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So essentially no is the answer.

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There is basically no evidence, psychological

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or epigraphic evidence directly of,

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these defeats of the thesal.

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So if there is one, They go back on interpreting the

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stories themselves, I think,

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And in and interpreting those stories.

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How have other historians done that?

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Um, this your third question.

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Yeah. Uh, a lot of people have basically chosen

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to believe, and this is probably the orthodox view,

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to believe that the thesal were, either

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at at least attacking co, places in central Greece,

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not only the Foss, but also the BYOC oceans further east,

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or even that there was a period

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of salient hegemony over that area.

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And they do this because, well, for bad reasons, I think,

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partly they take up some stories which come up later.

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These stories that stories

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and Herter are retold with some elaboration by,

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the travel writer Pius

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and the, biographer plutarch writing in the

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second century ad.

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So we're talking about writers 600 years after the event,

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and they add in an extra element of the folk in despair.

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A story about how in one

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of these battles against the Sallians, the FNS

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made this despairing decision to gather all their women

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and children together and leave a detachment

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of soldiers there to kill them,

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to slaughter them in the event that they lost the battle.

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Uh, it's a, you know,

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it's ano another folk tale, I think.

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I mean, it's a, it's an amazing story.

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It's very gripping, but,

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it doesn't appear in Ous at all.

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So, it appears first in these authors in the second

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century ad Elena Front, she has argued

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that actually that story may come up as early

222
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as the fourth century BC so about 150 years, again,

223
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after the actual purported event.

224
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So to answer your question, a lot

225
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of historians believe in some period

226
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of the salient hegemony.

227
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So basically they think

228
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these might be fictionalized versions of real battles,

229
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and it's become popular among people like Jeremy McIn,

230
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who wrote the best book on focus to say that this was

231
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the cause of the ethno genesis of the fns.

232
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That the fns came together from being a group

233
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of disparate towns to form themselves into this league

234
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with a common consciousness of being foing

235
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directly in response to pressure from the Thesal.

236
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So it's the thesal pressure on them,

237
00:12:20.305 --> 00:12:22.615
which makes them become an eth ethanols.

238
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In a sense, that's the theory of Ethnos.

239
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Uh, I do find that ancient historians, my colleagues,

240
00:12:30.495 --> 00:12:33.475
are often overly inclined to think that every event has

241
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to have a wall behind it.

242
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Uh, I've seen things in my life like, you know, the end

243
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of apartheid in South Africa, where, you know,

244
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when I was young people said, there will have

245
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to be a blood bath, and there wasn't a blood bath.

246
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So I think we should revise our view

247
00:12:48.315 --> 00:12:50.835
and think sometimes things can happen without a war.

248
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Ana Francia, I think, has a more subtle version of this,

249
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which is that it's ethno POIs.

250
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So POAs connected with the word for poem and poetry

251
00:13:03.105 --> 00:13:06.525
and so forth, that in retrospect, this

252
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folk in themselves told themselves these stories

253
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to explain why they were an ethnos

254
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and explain this idea that they, so they came

255
00:13:16.805 --> 00:13:20.365
to believe perhaps that they had come together in response

256
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to pressure from the thesal.

257
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But she's not saying that

258
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that actually had been true in the first place.

259
00:13:26.105 --> 00:13:29.645
But it's, it's a way they end up dealing with their history.

260
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I though have a different view, really. Sorry.

261
00:13:34.905 --> 00:13:37.225
I was gonna say, so that must feed into your view about

262
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the collective memory, this, this idea of memory management.

263
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What does that mean?

264
00:13:41.855 --> 00:13:43.905
What I mean by memory management is that

265
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there's been quite a lot of work in modern history now on

266
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how people manage memories of defeat.

267
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And this is where it seems to me the fos had a real problem.

268
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Uh, there are various ways you can

269
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manage memories of defeat.

270
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Often countries, decide that it was the previous regime

271
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that was responsible.

272
00:14:06.685 --> 00:14:09.985
So that's what basically Germany and Japan both did

273
00:14:09.985 --> 00:14:10.985
after World War ii.

274
00:14:11.685 --> 00:14:15.065
So they could sort of separate themselves from those events.

275
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Uh, and it's actually what Thebans did

276
00:14:18.905 --> 00:14:19.905
after the Persian war.

277
00:14:20.015 --> 00:14:22.625
Thebans, when they tasked with the fact

278
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that they had supported the Persians in four 80,

279
00:14:25.775 --> 00:14:29.225
late in the fifth century, said, well, no, we are controlled

280
00:14:29.225 --> 00:14:32.985
by a of a faction, an upper class faction.

281
00:14:33.285 --> 00:14:35.785
And they made that decision. It wasn't really us.

282
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So, all you can, argue,

283
00:14:41.085 --> 00:14:43.265
you can believe that you are stabbed from within.

284
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That internal factors

285
00:14:46.475 --> 00:14:48.865
meant there wasn't enough support for the war effort.

286
00:14:48.865 --> 00:14:52.325
So that's basically what Germany, Germany, Germans often did

287
00:14:52.325 --> 00:14:55.205
after World War I, it's what a lot

288
00:14:55.205 --> 00:14:56.965
of Americans did after Vietnam.

289
00:14:57.305 --> 00:14:58.725
Uh, they often felt

290
00:14:58.725 --> 00:15:02.085
that the protest movement had undermined the war effort.

291
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So that's another possible way.

292
00:15:04.625 --> 00:15:09.075
Uh, the fns don't seem to have been inclined

293
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to blame themselves.

294
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Uh, and they had to explain two things.

295
00:15:14.615 --> 00:15:17.655
One is they'd failed at the moly

296
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and then been forced to me die

297
00:15:19.635 --> 00:15:22.775
and had to actually contribute troops to the Persian cause.

298
00:15:23.835 --> 00:15:26.095
And, you know, that was embarrassing, no doubt.

299
00:15:26.315 --> 00:15:30.215
But even more, I think they had to explain the difficult dis

300
00:15:30.885 --> 00:15:32.815
explain the decision they'd made,

301
00:15:32.815 --> 00:15:34.575
which had proved so disastrous.

302
00:15:34.725 --> 00:15:36.495
There's been a lot of work done.

303
00:15:36.635 --> 00:15:40.215
An Australian historian Thompson wrote a really interesting

304
00:15:40.215 --> 00:15:43.655
book called Anzac Memories, you know, 25 years ago now.

305
00:15:44.195 --> 00:15:45.775
Uh, and he'd gone back

306
00:15:45.775 --> 00:15:47.975
and interviewed World War I Soldiers on things

307
00:15:47.975 --> 00:15:49.295
like, why did they enlist?

308
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But he picked soldiers where he had evidence at the time

309
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of why they'd enlisted.

310
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And of course, at the time they enlisted, they had no idea

311
00:15:56.815 --> 00:15:58.375
what they're letting themselves in for.

312
00:15:58.405 --> 00:15:59.895
They, they, then they went

313
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and found they were on the western front, and,

314
00:16:02.435 --> 00:16:05.775
and later they had to manage their own memories

315
00:16:05.835 --> 00:16:07.775
to explain having made that decision.

316
00:16:08.675 --> 00:16:11.615
So I think the Fian must have been in a situation of having,

317
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in effect, brought this terrible disaster on themselves,

318
00:16:15.755 --> 00:16:18.535
and they had to come up with explanations.

319
00:16:19.235 --> 00:16:22.335
So they couldn't really blame the Southern Greeks

320
00:16:22.335 --> 00:16:23.655
for abandoning them,

321
00:16:23.655 --> 00:16:25.775
because the Southern Greeks would've just said, well,

322
00:16:26.335 --> 00:16:28.415
actually you are the ones who lost us the ly.

323
00:16:28.515 --> 00:16:30.215
So that wasn't going to fly.

324
00:16:30.795 --> 00:16:33.135
Uh, they could have just blamed the Persians,

325
00:16:33.235 --> 00:16:36.895
but, they seemed to have rather lit on blaming

326
00:16:37.435 --> 00:16:39.455
the salience in particular.

327
00:16:39.635 --> 00:16:41.495
And, that could be

328
00:16:41.495 --> 00:16:44.255
because there was some pre-existing conflict with them.

329
00:16:44.635 --> 00:16:47.335
But equally, I think it could easily have come up

330
00:16:47.875 --> 00:16:50.135
in four 80 itself as the Persian army

331
00:16:50.895 --> 00:16:52.415
rampaged its way through focus.

332
00:16:53.235 --> 00:16:56.175
Uh, the Sicilians were there riding beside them,

333
00:16:56.455 --> 00:16:57.495
probably looking very smug.

334
00:16:57.995 --> 00:16:59.975
And that may have been the point

335
00:16:59.975 --> 00:17:02.175
where the Fian really decided, well,

336
00:17:02.395 --> 00:17:04.215
we actually hate those Ians.

337
00:17:04.915 --> 00:17:08.455
And started coming up with stories, perhaps

338
00:17:09.285 --> 00:17:12.455
loosely based on some skirmishes somewhere,

339
00:17:12.475 --> 00:17:15.735
but not necessarily with Salis or perhaps entirely made up.

340
00:17:15.995 --> 00:17:18.135
Uh, they had plenty of time to do this

341
00:17:18.135 --> 00:17:20.575
because Herods does write several decades

342
00:17:20.865 --> 00:17:22.935
after, the war itself.

343
00:17:22.995 --> 00:17:26.535
So you don't know when exactly the FNS came up with these,

344
00:17:26.585 --> 00:17:29.375
these explanations, but they came up with,

345
00:17:30.435 --> 00:17:32.255
and this killed two birds with one stone.

346
00:17:32.435 --> 00:17:35.335
One was, you know, we hate that the aliens

347
00:17:35.335 --> 00:17:38.655
and it deflect attention away from

348
00:17:39.425 --> 00:17:40.535
their failure at the,

349
00:17:41.325 --> 00:17:45.255
towards some possibly mythical victories.

350
00:17:45.595 --> 00:17:47.095
And so it's much better to be able

351
00:17:47.095 --> 00:17:49.965
to talk about victories than talk about your own failure.

352
00:17:50.705 --> 00:17:52.565
But it also helps solve the question

353
00:17:52.565 --> 00:17:55.565
of why they were in this position in the first place,

354
00:17:55.565 --> 00:17:59.565
because s tells us as though it's his own opinion.

355
00:18:00.685 --> 00:18:03.485
I think if the, the salient had fought against the Persians

356
00:18:03.485 --> 00:18:06.085
and the folk against wouldn't have, they would've me eyes.

357
00:18:06.305 --> 00:18:10.085
But since the thesal were on the Persian side, the fns,

358
00:18:10.245 --> 00:18:12.975
'cause they hated them, they,

359
00:18:13.125 --> 00:18:14.615
they stood against the Persian.

360
00:18:14.615 --> 00:18:16.575
So whatever the thesal did,

361
00:18:16.755 --> 00:18:18.695
the fns were going to do something different.

362
00:18:19.535 --> 00:18:21.375
I don't think that's otti his own idea.

363
00:18:21.535 --> 00:18:23.095
I think this is an idea which comes out

364
00:18:23.355 --> 00:18:24.735
almost certainly from a source.

365
00:18:24.895 --> 00:18:28.935
I think he's been using a fian source in this bit,

366
00:18:28.935 --> 00:18:32.055
because he also gives a very detailed description

367
00:18:32.055 --> 00:18:33.255
of the march through focus

368
00:18:33.395 --> 00:18:35.735
and a very detailed geographical description.

369
00:18:36.115 --> 00:18:39.255
So it actually tells us a lot more about the destruction

370
00:18:39.255 --> 00:18:43.055
of focus by the Persians than the destruction even of Athens

371
00:18:43.055 --> 00:18:44.455
and the attic countryside.

372
00:18:44.635 --> 00:18:46.735
So I think he's on,

373
00:18:47.255 --> 00:18:49.815
I think this is a folk in story in the end,

374
00:18:50.115 --> 00:18:54.095
and they have decided, well, why did we fight against the,

375
00:18:54.155 --> 00:18:57.375
pers well, it's because we hated the Alians

376
00:18:57.475 --> 00:18:58.615
and so we had to do it.

377
00:18:59.035 --> 00:19:03.215
And so it's a way of managing some very awkward memories.

378
00:19:04.355 --> 00:19:06.375
It will explain. Fantastic. Okay. Final question.

379
00:19:06.375 --> 00:19:09.255
In terms of the legacy or the impact of that, can you speak

380
00:19:09.255 --> 00:19:10.735
to what impacts do you think these events had on

381
00:19:10.735 --> 00:19:11.935
subsequent events in Greece?

382
00:19:12.975 --> 00:19:15.465
Yeah. Well, there's a very interesting set

383
00:19:15.465 --> 00:19:17.665
of events in the mid fourth century.

384
00:19:17.805 --> 00:19:19.465
So about a, a century and a quarter

385
00:19:19.635 --> 00:19:22.185
after, so

386
00:19:22.745 --> 00:19:26.025
invasion when f the fns,

387
00:19:26.785 --> 00:19:29.515
because of actual political conflict

388
00:19:29.515 --> 00:19:32.155
with people including the Alians,

389
00:19:32.415 --> 00:19:34.595
but also the boy oceans,

390
00:19:34.945 --> 00:19:37.355
they actually seized the sanctuary at Delphi,

391
00:19:37.975 --> 00:19:40.595
and eventually they started melting down the treasures.

392
00:19:40.595 --> 00:19:41.675
They hired mercenaries

393
00:19:41.695 --> 00:19:44.515
and they held all their enemies off for 10 years.

394
00:19:44.575 --> 00:19:49.195
So it's a war that actually goes from 3 56 BC to 3 46,

395
00:19:49.315 --> 00:19:51.875
a classic 10 year war in reality.

396
00:19:52.415 --> 00:19:57.265
Uh, and I think their own stories about their

397
00:19:57.405 --> 00:20:01.705
enmity towards the sallians have in a sense influenced some

398
00:20:01.705 --> 00:20:02.945
of their behavior here.

399
00:20:03.085 --> 00:20:04.465
Uh, Delphi was controlled

400
00:20:04.465 --> 00:20:07.465
by a religious league called the Delphi fic,

401
00:20:08.445 --> 00:20:11.865
and the Thesal were actually the dominant

402
00:20:12.075 --> 00:20:13.505
state in that ect.

403
00:20:13.885 --> 00:20:18.865
So seizing Delphi was partly informed by hatred

404
00:20:19.005 --> 00:20:21.065
of the thesal, and there'd been conflict

405
00:20:21.355 --> 00:20:23.305
where the ECT knee had been used

406
00:20:23.325 --> 00:20:26.545
to levy fines on at least some of the folk in leaders.

407
00:20:26.805 --> 00:20:27.945
Now, I think a lot

408
00:20:27.945 --> 00:20:30.305
of the reasons they gave was spurious in the end.

409
00:20:30.805 --> 00:20:35.465
Uh, and it was a case partly of leaders leading sort of

410
00:20:36.025 --> 00:20:39.225
a populace into a war, which ultimately was disastrous,

411
00:20:39.225 --> 00:20:43.145
because for a few years there were a great power,

412
00:20:43.245 --> 00:20:46.785
but ultimately they ran out of things they could melt down.

413
00:20:46.885 --> 00:20:50.405
And, eventually Philip Macedon entered into Greece,

414
00:20:50.595 --> 00:20:51.765
settled this war,

415
00:20:52.145 --> 00:20:54.685
and became a permanent fixture in Greek politics.

416
00:20:54.705 --> 00:20:59.645
So in a sense, one of the ultimate, results of this, of

417
00:21:00.245 --> 00:21:04.125
I think, concocted hatred between Salian, between Vs.

418
00:21:04.145 --> 00:21:07.925
And the Alians, is the entry of Philippa Macedon, who is,

419
00:21:08.185 --> 00:21:11.205
for whom the Alians were close allies,

420
00:21:11.205 --> 00:21:12.765
but almost a vassal state.

421
00:21:13.225 --> 00:21:15.125
So he comes in on their behalf

422
00:21:15.905 --> 00:21:17.925
and ends up taking over the Greek world.

423
00:21:18.065 --> 00:21:20.125
So, and that's quite a big consequence in the end.

424
00:21:21.775 --> 00:21:23.395
That's really time we have of you, Peter.

425
00:21:23.485 --> 00:21:25.155
Peter, thank you for talking to us.

426
00:21:25.255 --> 00:21:26.435
Uh, let me tell you about your next steps.

427
00:21:26.455 --> 00:21:27.075
Uh, just before you go.

Quick Answers

The Persian Invasion of Greece: Stories of Sallians and Destruction

00:00:00 - I I was looking in particular at a couple of stories that Ous tells us in his account of the Persian invasion of Greece and four 80 bbc. So he tells us these two stories about events, which he said happened not many years before. So it's fairly vague actually. And they relate to a suppose invasion of focus in central Greece by the Sallians from northern Greece. So Xerxes invaded Greece

00:00:34 - he arrived down here at Thei in around August four 80 bc and the Greeks famously tried to defend the Mapai, against, the Persians. this is where the Spartan 300 died. the FNS were involved in that defense of the Mapai, and but not very gloriously. They were meant to guard the pass, which went

00:01:09 - And so the, the Greeks were massacred by the Persians 'cause they could get in behind them. After that, Xerxes marched over the hills, over these passes into central Greece and came down through focus. And all the little flame signs are folk in cities which the Persians burnt. they sacked every city they could find. They pillaged the countryside.

Defiance and Devastation: The Fian's Stand Against the Persians

00:01:40 - because you have, they had a big army on the march to feed, they killed any stragglers. Most of the folk ins had managed to, escape up onto Mount Panasas here and, or across the, the water, in fact, to places like, the North coast of the Albanese. But the people they caught, they killed the women they raped according to Ous. They raped them until they died.

00:02:11 - And the situation though was that the Fian had been the one group of people in this part of Greece who had stood up against the Persians. Most of the other people around them, everybody north of the Mapai, even these, these group here, the Dorians just to the west of Focus and the BYOC oceans, most of the Byoc oceans, especially Thebans to the East, had all gone over to the Persians.

00:02:43 - of the world who had stood up against the Persians, helped to defend them ly, but not done it very gloriously. And what we're told is that, when, they're regarding the path around the mountain, the Persian Immortals came up that path. The FNS heard them coming and retreated up a hill. preparing Ous tells us to sell their lives dearly.

Failed Defenses and Legendary Battles

00:03:13 - they're up a hill now and just pressed on. So he simply bypassed them. So they failed to defend the, the path that they're meant to be defending. So what we're told then, what ous tells us in an account, which was probably written anywhere between four 40 and four 20 BC So, you know, 40 to 60 years after the event, he tells us that the Sallians, the people who came from northern Greece,

00:03:43 - to imagine the next big area off the map, the Sallians, came in with the Persians as their allies and directed them to burn all these folk in cities because the sallians held a particular grudge against the Fian because of these two battles, which had happened not long before. Now, the battles are rather dreamlike, and to be honest, I think they're folk tales, but are in one, a group of 600 Falcons,

00:04:17 - they were whitened and made a night attack on a salian position, and basically under orders to kill everybody who wasn't, didn't have gypsum on their bodies In the other one, the Fs were meant to have planted pots and foray under, just under the surface of the earth in one of the passes into focus. And the Salian cavalry all broke their legs in these pots.

Questioning Belief and Motivation

00:04:50 - But, how, you know, how much we should believe the detail, is a real question. So the FOIAs at this stage, there were a United State. there are about 20 small towns. There was no single preeminent town in focus,

00:05:22 - a league sometime in the late sixth century. And we know it was around then, because that's when they first produced common coinage. So they're fairly new. And you do have to ask why did they decide to oppose the Persians? That was a very gutsy thing to do in the situation. But, maybe in retrospect, not so sensible. I think perhaps they felt they wanted to take a part in this great event. They were, you know, they united politically

00:05:53 - It's a bit like Australians actually my own country. when World War I came along, Australia had been a united country for 14 or 15 years. And we are very keen to go and fight initially Gallipoli later on the Western front to prove ourselves, to prove that we were a prop nation because, we've been granted independence by an act of the British Parliament. We'd never had to fight for our independence. So it seemed that now we could prove ourselves in war.

Reflecting on War: The Aftermath of Fokian Actions

00:06:24 - that human beings feel that proving themselves in war is a necessary thing. So perhaps the Foks just wanted to take part in these great deeds, and perhaps they thought of themselves as really Greek as really, we have no way of knowing. all we can know is that afterwards they must have wondered why in Hell's name did we do that? Because they had all their cities burned and the, these terrible results. Several authors, talk about the

00:06:59 - especially Delphi, but also another one called Abbi, to commemorate these events. And Ous tells us that they, after one of these battles, they captured, there were 4,000 Salian dead, and they dedicated 4,000 shields in these two sanctuaries. Now, there should be evidence of that, but frankly, there isn't. there's evidence of statues possibly.

00:07:29 - the inscriptions are fragmentary and so forth, but possibly dedicated by the Ians at Delphi commemorating a victory over the Thesal. But the problem is these statues, judging from the latter forms of the inscriptions, are almost certainly dedicated in the later fourth century bc So like 150 years after this event. So essentially no is the answer. There is basically no evidence ideological

The Thesal Defeats: Orthodox Views

00:08:01 - these defeats of the thesal. This is probably the orthodox view to believe that the thesal were, either at at least attacking, places in central Greece, not only the Focons, but also the BYOC oceans further east, or even that there was a period of thesal hegemony over that area. And they do this because, well, for bad reasons, I think,

00:08:32 - These stories, the stories and ERs are retold with some elaboration by, the travel writer POIs and the, biographer plutarch, right in the second century ad. So we're talking about writers 600 years after the event, and they add in an extra element of the folk in despair. A story about how in one of these battles against the Thesal, the FNS

00:09:03 - and children together and leave a detachment of soldiers there to kill them, to slaughter them in the event that they lost the battle. it's a, you know, it's ano another folk tale, I think. I mean, it's a, it's an amazing story. It's very gripping, but it doesn't appear in Ous at all. So, it appears first in these authors in the second century ad Elena Front, she has argued

Ethno-Genesis and Historical Fiction

00:09:34 - as the fourth century BC so about 150 years, again, after the actual purported event. A lot of historians believe in some period of the salient hegemony. So basically they think these might be fictionalized versions of real battles. And it's become popular among people like Jeremy McIn, who wrote the best book on focus to say that this was

00:10:06 - That the fns came together from being a group of disparate towns to form themselves into this league with a common consciousness of being foing directly in response to pressure from the Thesal. So it's the thesal pressure on them, which makes them become an ethnos. In a sense, that's the theory of ethno genesis. I do find that ancient historians, my colleagues are often overly inclined to think

00:10:38 - I've seen things in my life like, you know, the end of apartheid in South Africa, where, you know, when I was young people said, there will have to be a blood bath, and there wasn't a blood bath. So I think we should revise our view and think sometimes things can happen without a war. And French, I think has a more subtle version of this, which is that it's ethno POAs. So POAs connected with the word for poem and poetry

'Managing Memories of Defeat: Ethno-Genesis and Historical Interpretation'

00:11:10 - folk in themselves told themselves these stories to explain why they were an ethnos and explain this idea that they, so they came to believe perhaps that they had come together in response to pressure from the sallians. But she's not saying that that actually had been true in the first place. But it's, it's a way they end up dealing with their history. I though have a different view, really.

00:11:39 - how people manage memories of defeat. And this is where it seems to me the fos had a real problem. there are various ways you can manage memories of defeat. Often countries, decide that it was the previous regime that was responsible. So that's what basically Germany and Japan both did after World War ii. So they could sort of separate themselves from those events. and it's actually what Thebans did

00:12:10 - Thebans, when they're tasked with the fact that they had supported the Persians in four 80, late in the fifth century, said, well, no, we are controlled by a of a faction, an upper class faction. And they made that decision. It wasn't really us. You can believe that you are stabbed from within. That internal factors meant there wasn't enough support for the war effort. So that's basically what Germany, Germans often did after World War I, it's what a lot

Memory Management and Historical Accountability

00:12:42 - they often felt that the protest movement had undermined the war effort. So that's another possible way. the fns don't seem to have been inclined to blame themselves. and they had to explain two things. One is they'd failed at Theola and then been forced to me die and had to actually contribute troops to the Persian cause. And, you know, that was embarrassing, no doubt.

00:13:16 - explain the decision they'd made, which had proved so disastrous. There's been a lot of work done. An Australian historian, Alistair Thompson, wrote a really interesting book called Anzac Memories, you know, 25 years ago now. and he'd gone back and interviewed World War I Soldiers on things like, why did they enlist? But he picked soldiers where he had evidence at the time of why they'd enlisted. And of course, at the time they enlisted, they had no idea what they're letting themselves in for.

00:13:45 - and found they were on the western front, and, and later they had to manage their own memories to explain having made that decision. So I think the Ians must have been in a situation of having, in effect, brought this terrible disaster on themselves, and they had to come up with explanations. So they couldn't really blame the Southern Greeks for abandoning them, because the Southern Greeks would've just said, well, actually, you are the ones who lost us. The, so that wasn't going to fly.

Blaming the Sallians: Mythical Tales and Deflection

00:14:18 - but, they seemed to have rather lit on blaming the Sallians in particular. And, that could be because there was some pre-existing conflict with them. But equally, I think it could easily have come up in four 80 itself as the Persian army rampaged its way through focus. the Sallians were there riding beside them, probably looking very smug. And that may have been the point where the fos really decided, well,

00:14:50 - And started coming up with stories, perhaps loosely based on some skirmishes somewhere, but not necessarily with the salience or perhaps entirely made up. they had plenty of time to do this because Otus does write several decades after, the war itself. So you don't know when exactly the PHNs came up with these, these explanations, but they came up with, and this killed two birds with one stone.

00:15:20 - and it deflects attention away from their failure at Thele towards some possibly mythical victories. And so it's much better to be able to talk about victories than talk about your own failure. But it also helps solve the question of why they were in this position in the first place, because Ous tells us as though it's his own opinion. I think if the salient had fought against the Persians

Fian's Conflict and Memory Management

00:15:51 - But since the salient were on the Persian side, the Fons, because they hated them, they, they stood against the Persian. So whatever the salience did, the fian were going to do something different. I don't think that's her Rods his own idea. I think this is an idea which comes out almost certainly from a source. I think he's been using a fo in source in this bit, because he also gives a very detailed description of the march through focus and a very detailed geographical description.

00:16:24 - of focus by the Persians than the destruction even of a Athens and the Attic countryside. So I think he's on, I think this is a Fian story in the end, and they have decided, well, why did we fight against the, Persians? Well, it's because we hated the Alians, and so we had to do it. And so it's a way of managing some very awkward memories. There's a very interesting set of events in the mid fourth century, so about a, a century

00:16:56 - X's invasion when f the Fian, because of actual political conflict with people including the Alians, but also the boy oceans. They actually seized the sanctuary at Delphi, and eventually they started melting down the treasures. They hired mercenaries and they held all their enemies off for 10 years. So it's a war that actually goes from 3 56 BC to 3 46,

Influenced Behavior and Consequences

00:17:27 - and I think their own stories about their enmity towards the thesal have in a sense influenced some of their behavior here. Delphi was controlled by a religious league called the Delphi fic, and the Thesal were actually the dominant state in that fic. So seizing Delphi was partly informed by hatred of the thesal, and there'd been conflict

00:17:57 - to levy fines on at least some of the folk in leaders. Now, I think a lot of the reasons they gave was spurious in the end. and it was a case partly of leaders leading sort of a populace into a war, which ultimately was disastrous, because for a few years they were a great power, but ultimately they ran out of things they could melt down. And, eventually Philip of Macedon entered into Greece, settled this war,

00:18:52 - So in a sense, one of the ultimate, results of this sort, I think, concocted hatred between Thesal, between Ians and Thesal is the entry of Philip of Macedon, who is, for whom the, were close allies, but almost a vassal state. So he comes in on their behalf and ends up taking over the Greek world. So, and that's quite a big consequence in the end.

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