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At the ‘School Fundamental’ Festival in Bauhaus, Dessau, Leo Care and Carolyn Butterworth discussed live educational experiences and student project polarization in March 2019.

Image courtesy of interviewee. March 26, 2024

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This video video discusses the significance of the Bauhaus movement in 20th-century architectural education and its influence on modern pedagogy. It mentions a workshop held to celebrate the Bauhaus's centenary, where educators explored the concept of "liveness" in teaching methods—how teaching can engage students in real-world contexts, similar to the Bauhaus's approach that integrated various arts and design disciplines.

The workshop engaged students in "live projects" where they worked with real clients, particularly from the third sector or nonprofit organizations. These experiences allowed students to address societal challenges and collaborate in creating meaningful solutions, broadening their understanding of architecture beyond traditional boundaries.

Through discussions and activities, students reflected on their projects across themes such as "speculative vs. deliverable" and "abstract vs. real," promoting critical conversation about the nature of their work and its societal impact. This video video reflective practice fostered a better understanding of their roles as architects and strengthened their capability to engage communities thoughtfully.

The educators emphasized the importance of mentorship, creating an environment where students could lead their projects while teachers facilitated and nudged them toward self-exploration and collaboration. The overall aim was to dissolve the binary between traditional design studios and live projects, allowing for richer learning experiences that could inform both their academic and professional futures.

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The Bauhaus is incredibly important.

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I mean, it always sort of sits in the background

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of 20th century, architectural education

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and more widely, you know, arts and applied arts education.

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So obviously when we were invited to, to do this workshop,

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it was part of our a hundred year celebration

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of the Bauhaus, and we were very aware of that legacy,

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and I think we were, we, we were invited

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to actually run a workshop around our live pedagogy,

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and we weren't entirely sure how that aligned

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or could be brought to the Bauhaus situation.

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Um, and we were really interested in understanding whether

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there was any degree of liveness as we call it,

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within the Bauhaus way of teaching.

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Um, and how, how we could use that as a sort of,

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catalyst for conversations

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with our students about their own experience

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of architectural education.

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I mean, the Bauhaus really sort of sets that agenda

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for this idea of sort of total, total piece of work in terms

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of everything is designed

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and design is there for, you know, the, the, the masses,

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I suppose at the time might be the phrase that they used

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to enjoy, but we never really understood how

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that was actually done, how students were actually

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invi invited into that world of this sort

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of total understanding of design,

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and how they were taken through the sort of staging of that.

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Um, so yeah, we, we sort of,

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we arrived at the Bauhaus building in desal with a sort

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of curiosity around that and an understanding of the legacy

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and this sort of weight of the tradition of the Bauhaus

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and not really understanding how we were going to sort

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of engage with that, with our students.

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But, but,

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but it opened up a huge amount of sort of, it was a,

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it was an incredibly creative situation

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to step into, that's for sure.

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Live projects, have been taking place in the school

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of architecture here in Sheffield for 25 years now.

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Uh, that was 20 years when we wrote the article.

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So some time has passed.

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So they're very much part of the, the kind of DNA

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of our school of architecture.

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Um, they take place every year, at the beginning of term

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for, a large cohort of our master's students.

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So we have over 200 students taking part each year.

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The projects run for six weeks,

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with the students split into groups working for,

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real clients over that period of time.

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And the clients, for us are always, third sector,

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or not-for-profit organizations,

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which is really important to our ethos.

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And the students work directly with the client

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and other stakeholders within the project over

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that six week period to, deliver on a brief

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that the clients, along with colleagues have set.

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Um, and so within that six week period,

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our students are able to address the,

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fundamental challenges that those clients have

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and seek to, work with them

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and collaborate with other people in order to come up

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with real solutions

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or proposals that would bring about, sort

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of meaningful change if and where possible.

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Um, they aren't always sort of what you might consider

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as pure architecture projects.

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They can be across all sorts of scales.

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They can be sort of strategic visioning

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of whole regions right, the way down

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to small scale design and build intervention.

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So, we have a very broad understanding of what,

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the projects can cover.

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Um, some of them are more focused on, sort

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of helping an organization to some extent with its sort

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of internal and external communication.

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Um, so it doesn't have to fall into sort of traditional

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category of architecture, of designing and making something.

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Um, and we feel that that provides lots

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of really interesting opportunities for our students

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to question what architecture is,

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what their role in architecture is,

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and helps us sort of shape that for the future.

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We've been very careful in shaping

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the pedagogy over that period of time.

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And actually the, the,

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the teachers take on a slightly different

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role within life projects.

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So we, we don't call 'em tutors in

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life project, we call them mentors.

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So it takes on a slightly,

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you take on a slightly different position,

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and that really is a nod to the fact

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that the projects are student led.

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So these projects are really there for the students

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to be able to explore what they've, the experience

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that they've gained working in practice, which they do

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before they come in and join us

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for the, the master's course.

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So they've had some experience of working practice,

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and this is really a chance for 'em to sort of test

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that knowledge and that experience linking their kind

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of practice experience to their academic experience,

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but also really questioning

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and trying to sort of do some soul searching as to,

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you know, what are we doing as architects?

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What, what is our role?

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How are we working with people

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and how can we make positive change?

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So for us as teachers, we very much take a kind of backseat,

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try not to lead and try to just enable

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and mentor the students

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and the clients, to be honest, we sometimes we, you know,

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work in the background trying to sort

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of help the clients understand what the students are doing

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as well, but try not to meddle too much,

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but just be there to kind of support

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and provide that scaffolding for the students

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and the clients to go out and,

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and do what they need to, to do

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and interact as much as possible.

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I think we're all conscious that everybody's stepping out

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of their comfort zone into a live project.

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It doesn't replicate a role

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that's conventionally found either in

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education or in practice.

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So whether you're a student or a teacher

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or one of our community clients, you, you,

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you're always sort of working differently and

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therefore learning differently.

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And, and, and actually that sort of coming together

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as mutual learners I think is incredibly important within

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the live project sort

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of relationship we found over the years running live

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projects, you know, we're now moving towards our 25th year

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of live projects that they've become very well known, more

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and more schools of architecture doing what we call,

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we all call live projects.

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And I think that always then holds a mirror up to

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what we do the rest of the year,

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which is we teach our students within

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what we call design studio, which is sort

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of more conventionally, thought of as sort

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of moved away from that relationship with a real client.

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And projects get cultivated within the studio,

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primarily through sort of relationship between students

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and their tutor.

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Um, and I suppose the question then is, well,

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if those are live projects when you're out in the world,

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the students are working with community clients,

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if those are live, well,

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if you're in the design studio, does that make that dead?

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And then suddenly this sort of polarity, this,

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this polarization, this, this sort of binary setup started

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to becoming more and more entrenched

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and in, in discourse around architectural education.

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You're either doing a live project

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or you're doing design studio,

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and one was connected to the real world and one wasn't.

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And more and more we felt

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that was really unsatisfactory in terms of, you know, just,

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just, bringing that sort of reflective pedagogy to,

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to, you know, the sense of, the role of the student,

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as an active learner.

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Um, but we didn't, and we also didn't want

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to stop our relationship with our community clients

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at the edge of the live project when we then

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moved into design studio.

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So we were really unsettled by this binary, you know,

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polarization that was going on.

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And we were starting to explore that within live projects,

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within studios and across the two.

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And we took tho that sort of set of, the set

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of questions, I suppose, to the Bauhaus

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and started to look at their tradition,

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at the turn of the 20th century

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to see whether they were grappling with the same questions

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and actually were really, really surprised, I think, to see

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that they were Mm-Hmm.

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Um, I think we thought, you know, within the sort

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of currency of architectural sort of discourse,

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the Bauhaus is known as, a place that, you know, engages

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with modern, engaged,

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with modern materials was very innovative,

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but very much a sort of close community of practitioners,

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you know, sort of being incredibly creative

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in amongst themselves.

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Um, and, but the more we looked at it, they really were,

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this is Gropius more than more than anybody in terms

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of his sort of directing role of the Bauhaus.

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He was very interested in a sort of conversation set up

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between what was called the preliminary course

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and the workshops.

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And in the preliminary course, students were encouraged

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to work with, fine artists on, on sort

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of abstract pieces of work

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that they would do within the studio.

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And then as they moved outta that initial introduction

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to the Bauhaus, they go into their disciplinary workshops

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and they would be doing product design or graphic design

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or more, more LA later on they'd be doing architecture,

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theater set design, you know, lots

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and lots of textiles, lots

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and lots of different sort of disciplines,

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but always those workshops would have a connection to,

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the external work world, whether that was through industry

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or thinking about an audience

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or a sort of sense of a client.

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And there wasn't a sort of hierarchy around that.

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Gropius managed to create a sort of creative tension

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between those two things.

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On one hand, students working in the abstract

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and another hand students working through the application

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of design, with a sense of,

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and we saw that as a sense of liveness, you know, that,

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that sense of connection.

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So yes, we, we, we took these questions to the workshop and,

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and said to the students,

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we were standing in this amazing building in Dessau,

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you know, designed by Walter Gropius,

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and we were standing in the workshop, sorry,

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the preliminary course space where,

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Joseph Albe would be doing his, his sort

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of abstract experiments with students

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and saying, you know, they've all brought, they all brought

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with us, information

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and posters that they've made of their live projects

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and their design studio projects.

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And we said in this whole sort of field of discourse

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around whether you are connected to the world

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or whether you are sort of based in the studio and,

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and working within sort of abstract condition,

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how do the projects that you are working on,

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how do they fit within this, within this sort

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of world, this territory?

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And that was the start of the workshop really,

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As Carolyn mentioned, you know, we're in this amazing sort

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of situation in the building and, I

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and our students were, I think really infuses by that,

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and I think they really bought into the idea of, of sort

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of experimentation within the workshop.

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We didn't know what the answers were going to be.

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We didn't know really how it was going to pan out,

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but we set a sort of a basic structure in place,

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and the students were,

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were brilliant in sort of rising to that challenge.

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So they came armed as Carol mentioned, with,

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with two posters, one, which represented their live project,

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one, their studio project.

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And we then started to ask them

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how they saw those projects in relation to our sort

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of four key terms, which were speculative,

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deliverable, abstract, and real.

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Um, so we had this kind of cross hair like axis trying to,

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get them to sort of position their work on this spectrum

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between how speculative it was at one end

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and how deliverable it was at the other,

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and then on the other axis,

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abstract at one end and reel at the other.

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So it was really interesting to see them mulling that over

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and physically putting themselves somewhere on that sort of

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life scale, life size kind of graph, if you like.

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And it was really interesting for them to do that.

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So they would kind of position themselves in space on,

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on this sort of, yeah, this physical graph.

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And then all sorts

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of conversations started to come out from that.

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So we'd have students that sort

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of grouped together in one area of this graph

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who had a very particular view on

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how their project might be seen,

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and then they sort of started discussing that

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and saying, well, hang on a minute.

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Yours is way more speculative than mine.

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Or actually, I think it's really real.

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So it was a, it was a lovely sort of set of conversations

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and they would physically be moving each other

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or pushing each other around in a kind

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of really playful way, but sort of trying to get

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to the heart of these really complex issues.

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And I think what it really brought to light was

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that this sort of very binary approach

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or this sort of idea that your project is either one thing

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or another was a fallacy, really.

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And actually it was all sort

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of really interesting gradations

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of somewhere between everything.

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And I think it really enabled them to sort of,

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consider their work in a way that they haven't before.

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We often get students to reflect,

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but rarely do we do it outside of, of our kind

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of architecture, school setting and in a different place.

293
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Mm-Hmm. And I think it just gave them the freedom to do

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that without worrying about how it might affect their grade

295
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or, you know, how their projects were gonna be finished. We

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Were aware of the sort of irony

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that we were actually taking our students away from their

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usual, you know, sort of situations,

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whether it's a studio or out in the, the city where they're,

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they're doing their live projects and design studios.

301
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We were removing them.

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They were be becoming apart from, you know,

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and we were asking them that, that

304
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that created an abstract condition actually

305
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within which they could actually start

306
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to unpack their projects really clearly in, in comparison

307
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with each other's work

308
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and also in, in comparison with the building

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that they were, they were studied.

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And, and I think that, I think that exemplified

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what abstraction can do actually, that sort of removal

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and stripping away of context in a very sort of clear,

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explicit way to allow you to sort of almost like have a sort

314
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of little crucible of, of exploration going on

315
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that you're sort of in control of.

316
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And before you sort of put it back in the real world.

317
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And, and we found that abstract as a term, was the one

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that they were slightly reluctant to engage

319
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with at first, weren't they?

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They were the, you know, they, like Sheffield School

321
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of Architecture, students like to be connected.

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That's why they, you know,

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and a lot of the time that's why they come to us.

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They want to do live projects, they want to have that,

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that social engagement.

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So to suggest that their work might be abstract,

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I think they were slightly sort of reluctant to,

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to sort of accept that.

329
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Yeah. Until we sort of acted out the role

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that abstraction can actually play in understanding

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what your sort of role

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as a designer might be when you are in this sort

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of relational context that sometimes is incredibly complex

334
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and difficult to work with.

335
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You know, we came away with a, even more of a,

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a, a a desire

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to engage our students in reflecting on their own learning

338
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and, and to do that in lots of different ways.

339
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I think we were really encouraged by the way that they were

340
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so open to being critical of each other's work,

341
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to share sort of critique,

342
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across, live studios, sorry,

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live life projects

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and design studios, you know, to start

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to look at those two sort of areas of work, and,

346
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and really start to understand the differences rather than

347
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sort of thinking they're different modules,

348
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they're doing different things.

349
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So that was really important, the sort of the radar chart

350
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that we, developed for the purpose of the workshop.

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We've, we've carried on using

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and has now become part of our toolkit

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within the M March course that students just pick up

354
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and readily use,

355
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and they'll use it to map different positionalities

356
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of their own project at different times as,

357
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as they work on it in terms of the design process,

358
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but also speculating how it might live in the world,

359
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you know, if it, if it was to be built for instance.

360
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Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

361
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And I think, I think that was another thing that we kind

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of took from the workshop was the idea that these,

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meaning these terms, sorry,

364
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mean different things to different people.

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And for students to think about if, if you were to say

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to a client or somebody else from outside the school,

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how do you see this particular project?

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They might have a completely different take on that.

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Their idea of what real is

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or what speculative is could be quite,

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different, quite nuanced.

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And I think that that encourages students

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to think not just about what the project's meant to them,

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but how other people might see them

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and what value they might gain from, from their work,

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which I think was really interesting.

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It all also gave us confidence to engage with the world

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of speculation within, you know,

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what we would've perhaps called real projects

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before, before that.

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And, and within live projects sort of, practice,

382
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there's always this concern about managing expectations

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that if a, you know, a bunch of very sort of,

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engaged and sort of ambitious students, go out

385
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and work with a community group, you know,

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perhaps they can set a few hairs racing and,

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and suddenly it all becomes very difficult to manage.

388
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But actually we started to really understand the, the,

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the value of speculation within a real context.

390
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It as, as long as it's really explicit that we're sort

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of stepping into a speculative sort of, arena, you know,

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in, in conversation with community groups

393
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and just being really open about that and asking what if

394
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and asking what is possible rather than what is predictable

395
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or what is, what is probable, you know, so, so

396
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that's become quite, quite liberating actually in terms

397
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of working with our students around that

398
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and not shutting out community clients,

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when we're having those specula speculative conversations

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through projects.

Bauhaus Legacy in Architectural Education Workshop

00:00:00 - The Bauhaus is incredibly important. I mean, it always sort of sits in the background of 20th century, architectural education and more widely, you know, arts and applied arts education. So obviously when we were invited to, to do this workshop, it was part of our a hundred year celebration of the Bauhaus, and we were very aware of that legacy, and I think we were, we, we were invited to actually run a workshop around our live pedagogy, and we weren't entirely sure how that aligned or could be brought to the Bauhaus situation.
00:00:38 - there was any degree of liveness as we call it, within the Bauhaus way of teaching. and how, how we could use that as a sort of, catalyst for conversations with our students about their own experience of architectural education. I mean, the Bauhaus really sort of sets that agenda for this idea of sort of total, total piece of work in terms of everything is designed
00:01:09 - I suppose at the time might be the phrase that they used to enjoy, but we never really understood how that was actually done, how students were actually invi invited into that world of this sort of total understanding of design, and how they were taken through the sort of staging of that. so yeah, we, we sort of, we arrived at the Bauhaus building in desal with a sort of curiosity around that and an understanding of the legacy
00:01:38 - and not really understanding how we were going to sort of engage with that, with our students. But, but, but it opened up a huge amount of sort of, it was a, it was an incredibly creative situation to step into, that's for sure. Live projects, have been taking place in the school of architecture here in Sheffield for 25 years now. that was 20 years when we wrote the article. So some time has passed. So they're very much part of the, the kind of DNA
00:02:08 - they take place every year, at the beginning of term for, a large cohort of our master's students. So we have over 200 students taking part each year. The projects run for six weeks, with the students split into groups working for, real clients over that period of time. And the clients, for us are always, third sector, or not-for-profit organizations, which is really important to our ethos.
00:02:39 - and other stakeholders within the project over that six week period to, deliver on a brief that the clients, along with colleagues have set. and so within that six week period, our students are able to address the, fundamental challenges that those clients have and seek to, work with them and collaborate with other people in order to come up with real solutions or proposals that would bring about, sort

Exploring Diverse Approaches in Architectural Education

00:03:12 - they aren't always sort of what you might consider as pure architecture projects. They can be across all sorts of scales. They can be sort of strategic visioning of whole regions right, the way down to small scale design and build intervention. So, we have a very broad understanding of what, the projects can cover. some of them are more focused on, sort of helping an organization to some extent with its sort of internal and external communication.
00:03:44 - category of architecture, of designing and making something. and we feel that that provides lots of really interesting opportunities for our students to question what architecture is, what their role in architecture is, and helps us sort of shape that for the future. We've been very careful in shaping the pedagogy over that period of time. And actually the, the, the teachers take on a slightly different role within life projects. So we, we don't call 'em tutors in life project, we call them mentors.
00:04:13 - you take on a slightly different position, and that really is a nod to the fact that the projects are student led. So these projects are really there for the students to be able to explore what they've, the experience that they've gained working in practice, which they do before they come in and join us for the, the master's course. So they've had some experience of working practice, and this is really a chance for 'em to sort of test that knowledge and that experience linking their kind of practice experience to their academic experience,
00:04:43 - and trying to sort of do some soul searching as to, you know, what are we doing as architects? What, what is our role? How are we working with people and how can we make positive change? So for us as teachers, we very much take a kind of backseat, try not to lead and try to just enable and mentor the students and the clients, to be honest, we sometimes we, you know, work in the background trying to sort of help the clients understand what the students are doing as well, but try not to meddle too much,
00:05:14 - and provide that scaffolding for the students and the clients to go out and, and do what they need to, to do and interact as much as possible. I think we're all conscious that everybody's stepping out of their comfort zone into a live project. It doesn't replicate a role that's conventionally found either in education or in practice. So whether you're a student or a teacher or one of our community clients, you, you, you're always sort of working differently and
00:05:45 - And, and, and actually that sort of coming together as mutual learners I think is incredibly important within the live project sort of relationship we found over the years running live projects, you know, we're now moving towards our 25th year of live projects that they've become very well known, more and more schools of architecture doing what we call, we all call live projects. And I think that always then holds a mirror up to what we do the rest of the year, which is we teach our students within

Bridging Live Projects and Design Studio Education

00:06:18 - of more conventionally, thought of as sort of moved away from that relationship with a real client. And projects get cultivated within the studio, primarily through sort of relationship between students and their tutor. and I suppose the question then is, well, if those are live projects when you're out in the world, the students are working with community clients, if those are live, well,
00:06:46 - And then suddenly this sort of polarity, this, this polarization, this, this sort of binary setup started to becoming more and more entrenched and in, in discourse around architectural education. You're either doing a live project or you're doing design studio, and one was connected to the real world and one wasn't. And more and more we felt that was really unsatisfactory in terms of, you know, just, just, bringing that sort of reflective pedagogy to, to, you know, the sense of, the role of the student,
00:07:18 - but we didn't, and we also didn't want to stop our relationship with our community clients at the edge of the live project when we then moved into design studio. So we were really unsettled by this binary, you know, polarization that was going on. And we were starting to explore that within live projects, within studios and across the two. And we took tho that sort of set of, the set of questions, I suppose, to the Bauhaus and started to look at their tradition,
00:07:51 - to see whether they were grappling with the same questions and actually were really, really surprised, I think, to see that they were Mm-Hmm. I think we thought, you know, within the sort of currency of architectural sort of discourse, the Bauhaus is known as, a place that, you know, engages with modern, engaged, with modern materials was very innovative, but very much a sort of close community of practitioners, you know, sort of being incredibly creative
00:08:23 - and, but the more we looked at it, they really were, this is Gropius more than more than anybody in terms of his sort of directing role of the Bauhaus. He was very interested in a sort of conversation set up between what was called the preliminary course and the workshops. And in the preliminary course, students were encouraged to work with, fine artists on, on sort of abstract pieces of work that they would do within the studio. And then as they moved outta that initial introduction
00:08:56 - and they would be doing product design or graphic design or more, more LA later on they'd be doing architecture, theater set design, you know, lots and lots of textiles, lots and lots of different sort of disciplines, but always those workshops would have a connection to, the external work world, whether that was through industry or thinking about an audience or a sort of sense of a client. And there wasn't a sort of hierarchy around that.

Exploring Abstract and Real in Design Projects

00:09:26 - between those two things. On one hand, students working in the abstract and another hand students working through the application of design, with a sense of, and we saw that as a sense of liveness, you know, that, that sense of connection. So yes, we, we, we took these questions to the workshop and, and said to the students, we were standing in this amazing building in Dessau, you know, designed by Walter Gropius, and we were standing in the workshop, sorry,
00:09:57 - Joseph Albe would be doing his, his sort of abstract experiments with students and saying, you know, they've all brought, they all brought with us, information and posters that they've made of their live projects and their design studio projects. And we said in this whole sort of field of discourse around whether you are connected to the world or whether you are sort of based in the studio and, and working within sort of abstract condition, how do the projects that you are working on,
00:10:27 - of world, this territory? And that was the start of the workshop really, As Carolyn mentioned, you know, we're in this amazing sort of situation in the building and, I and our students were, I think really infuses by that, and I think they really bought into the idea of, of sort of experimentation within the workshop. We didn't know what the answers were going to be. We didn't know really how it was going to pan out, but we set a sort of a basic structure in place,
00:10:57 - were brilliant in sort of rising to that challenge. So they came armed as Carol mentioned, with, with two posters, one, which represented their live project, one, their studio project. And we then started to ask them how they saw those projects in relation to our sort of four key terms, which were speculative, deliverable, abstract, and real. so we had this kind of cross hair like axis trying to, get them to sort of position their work on this spectrum between how speculative it was at one end
00:11:32 - and then on the other axis, abstract at one end and reel at the other. So it was really interesting to see them mulling that over and physically putting themselves somewhere on that sort of life scale, life size kind of graph, if you like. And it was really interesting for them to do that. So they would kind of position themselves in space on, on this sort of, yeah, this physical graph. And then all sorts of conversations started to come out from that. So we'd have students that sort
00:12:03 - who had a very particular view on how their project might be seen, and then they sort of started discussing that and saying, well, hang on a minute. Yours is way more speculative than mine. Or actually, I think it's really real. So it was a, it was a lovely sort of set of conversations and they would physically be moving each other or pushing each other around in a kind of really playful way, but sort of trying to get to the heart of these really complex issues. And I think what it really brought to light was that this sort of very binary approach

Exploring Abstraction in Architectural Education

00:12:36 - or another was a fallacy, really. And actually it was all sort of really interesting gradations of somewhere between everything. And I think it really enabled them to sort of, consider their work in a way that they haven't before. We often get students to reflect, but rarely do we do it outside of, of our kind of architecture, school setting and in a different place. Mm-Hmm. And I think it just gave them the freedom to do that without worrying about how it might affect their grade
00:13:09 - Were aware of the sort of irony that we were actually taking our students away from their usual, you know, sort of situations, whether it's a studio or out in the, the city where they're, they're doing their live projects and design studios. We were removing them. They were be becoming apart from, you know, and we were asking them that, that that created an abstract condition actually within which they could actually start to unpack their projects really clearly in, in comparison
00:13:40 - and also in, in comparison with the building that they were, they were studied. And, and I think that, I think that exemplified what abstraction can do actually, that sort of removal and stripping away of context in a very sort of clear, explicit way to allow you to sort of almost like have a sort of little crucible of, of exploration going on that you're sort of in control of. And before you sort of put it back in the real world. And, and we found that abstract as a term, was the one
00:14:12 - with at first, weren't they? They were the, you know, they, like Sheffield School of Architecture, students like to be connected. That's why they, you know, and a lot of the time that's why they come to us. They want to do live projects, they want to have that, that social engagement. So to suggest that their work might be abstract, I think they were slightly sort of reluctant to, to sort of accept that. Yeah. Until we sort of acted out the role that abstraction can actually play in understanding what your sort of role as a designer might be when you are in this sort
00:14:46 - and difficult to work with. You know, we came away with a, even more of a, a, a a desire to engage our students in reflecting on their own learning and, and to do that in lots of different ways. I think we were really encouraged by the way that they were so open to being critical of each other's work, to share sort of critique,
00:15:17 - live life projects and design studios, you know, to start to look at those two sort of areas of work, and, and really start to understand the differences rather than sort of thinking they're different modules, they're doing different things. So that was really important, the sort of the radar chart that we, developed for the purpose of the workshop. We've, we've carried on using and has now become part of our toolkit within the M March course that students just pick up

Exploring Project Perspectives and Community Engagement

00:15:46 - and they'll use it to map different positionalities of their own project at different times as, as they work on it in terms of the design process, but also speculating how it might live in the world, you know, if it, if it was to be built for instance. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think that was another thing that we kind of took from the workshop was the idea that these, meaning these terms, sorry, mean different things to different people.
00:16:19 - to a client or somebody else from outside the school, how do you see this particular project? They might have a completely different take on that. Their idea of what real is or what speculative is could be quite, different, quite nuanced. And I think that that encourages students to think not just about what the project's meant to them, but how other people might see them and what value they might gain from, from their work, which I think was really interesting.
00:16:48 - of speculation within, you know, what we would've perhaps called real projects before, before that. And, and within live projects sort of, practice, there's always this concern about managing expectations that if a, you know, a bunch of very sort of, engaged and sort of ambitious students, go out and work with a community group, you know, perhaps they can set a few hairs racing and, and suddenly it all becomes very difficult to manage.
00:17:21 - the value of speculation within a real context. It as, as long as it's really explicit that we're sort of stepping into a speculative sort of, arena, you know, in, in conversation with community groups and just being really open about that and asking what if and asking what is possible rather than what is predictable or what is, what is probable, you know, so, so that's become quite, quite liberating actually in terms
00:17:56 - and not shutting out community clients, when we're having those specula speculative conversations through projects.

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