Becoming Naturecultural

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Marta Calás discusses a human de-centered case study fostering critical but affirmative inquiries about sustainability from a non-anthropocentric relational ontology.

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Marta Calás discusses a human de-centered case study fostering critical but affirmative inquiries about sustainability from a non-anthropocentric relational ontology.

Image courtesy of interviewee. March 20, 2024

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This video video outlines a discussion reflecting on the concept of the Anthropocene and its implications for sustainability and organizational studies. The speaker recollects the rise of the Anthropocene discourse around 2007-2008, which prompted a renewed focus on human impacts on the environment. They express a long-standing interest in sustainability, emphasizing the importance of understanding the complexities of how sustainability is framed within organizational contexts.

A significant aspect of the work discussed involves research conducted by the speaker and a PhD student, Sara, within a company that claims to produce sustainable products. This video video context illustrates the challenges of defining sustainability, particularly regarding the economic versus environmental interpretations of sustainability.

The speaker critiques anthropocentric views that dominate discussions concerning sustainability and proposes a "becoming nature cultural" perspective, highlighting the need to recognize the agency of non-human elements in sustainability practices. They argue that sustainability must be viewed as an ongoing process rather than a static goal, requiring continuous effort and engagement from various entities.

This video video emphasizes a methodological approach that involves multi-sided ethnography, which advocates for a flat ontology where researchers participate equally with entities they study. This video video approach aims to capture the dynamic and interconnected processes involved in producing sustainable products, exemplified by the journey of cotton from seed to a sustainable t-shirt.

Ultimately, the speaker calls for a re-examination of sustainability practices, urging a consideration of the broader implications of actions taken within the Anthropocene. The discussion aims to stimulate further exploration of these ideas within organizational studies, emphasizing that understanding the complexities and agencies involved can contribute to addressing environmental challenges.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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Let me set the context for this work

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because this would be part of

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what I think is important in order to understand

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what I've been doing and what we've been doing.

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So many years ago, probably early in the,

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around 20 0 7, 2 0 8,

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the question of the Anthropocene became very central

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in the conversations we were, it was everywhere.

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We were listening to both popular press and academic press

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or different kind, really engaging with the issue of what,

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whether we were really in a new geological era

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where humans are for the first time the mayor

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culprits in whatever is happening environmentally and so on.

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And so that in itself,

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because I was already interested in sustainability as part

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of the more critical project that I tend to do, you know,

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sort of like saying we are doing not much

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for the environment and,

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and there what had been a prior literature in the late 1980s

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in organizational studies already,

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which was paying attention to

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how we were really creating a lot of problem,

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environmental problems and so on.

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So it, it wasn't new really,

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but it was like a revival of an interest

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that I had had more, much earlier

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because of that precise Anthropocene sort

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of figure suddenly coming into the picture.

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And so at the same time, more

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or less of a, during the same period, actually Sara Organic

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who came to our program to do her PhD

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and she became my student.

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And so that Sara enter, with me into this

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situation in which we in fact had got an entry

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into a company that claimed

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to have been doing the most sustainable possible pro

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products in the world.

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And that it was doing it for the good on the planet,

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which was somewhat early.

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If we think from the perspective of we are talking about,

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you know, when Sarah came to the program, it was 2012,

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but it was already in the air.

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Absolutely. And this company have been,

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I think it was founded in the 1980s

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and we had always been a sustainability

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oriented company when it wasn't even a conversation.

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And so therefore, for reasons that are most longer

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to explain, we ended up having the opportunity

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to actually enter the company

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and do research in the US where it's located

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first in headquarter.

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Sir, I eventually in some of the shops that the company has,

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these are fashion companies

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and it was very, very productive in many ways.

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So sir, I collected data in multiple ways early

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to try to understand what was about the industry

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that created these situations.

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Also later on in part of the, her dissertation, so

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that this particular article

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that was published very recently actually is part of

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that longer project

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that already at this point this would be,

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we survived the fourth publication that we had in

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during the past, I would say since 2016.

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And then, that is, we still have one more

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that is at this point on the review so

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that it would be get approved, accepted.

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It would be the fifth one with Sarai.

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But also I had all the writing that I've been doing, I just

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finished an edited book, which is precisely as an agenda,

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for organization study feminism,

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a new materialisms, which is again part of the,

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this big much bigger picture.

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So Sarai in this particular paper was

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an incredible part of the research.

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So she really is, I am talking

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of the more conceptual aspect of it

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because I was more involved

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with creating the conceptualization,

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but almost everything else.

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And the data collection

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and meaning the, in the context

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of the data collection is really totally sized work.

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And so I don't want to let it go

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because I think

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that she is not deserving naming her,

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but she is a centerpiece of this much larger conversation

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that having her as a partnering crime has been a blessing

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for me as a scholar.

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The idea of becoming nature cultural,

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if you look at it, it's the whole neoism that we are getting

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to develop is actually very active.

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It's a becoming is an action. It's happen. It is happening.

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And nature cultural is

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cannot exist without the becoming.

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In other words, it, it becomes constantly,

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and this is one thing that I think is important

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because is what perhaps make the ideas in the paper

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understood easier.

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One of the things that is we are trying

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to do at the more larger picture here is

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conceptually theoretically using resources

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that already exist to think from the perspective

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of all the time

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that we talk about sustainability, it's a thing.

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Sustainability is an object

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and it's not only an object, it's an object

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that have acquired, acquired centrality in a way

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that it have been fixed as something

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that humans do. Therefore

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The human In the center,

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The anthropos andrism

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and then it actually determine

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what culture is and what we

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Do with it.

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And therefore, and usually the

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Interests are Really economic interest behind it.

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There is a, the human that we are talking about

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Here Is not just any human,

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Is A human that actually is thinking

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that it already have the

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Power To dominate nature

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and usually thinking from the perspective of very

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western neoliberal

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Economic premises and

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Therefore this combination have become

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or have made sustainability become a thing

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that at this point we don't really know what it is

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because it is just so poorly to determine, for example,

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companies becoming sustainable, meaning sustainable

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economically, but don't necessarily talking

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about the environment.

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So way to think about this project was what we were going

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to do was to recapture sustainability and to bring it

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Down to a way to think about it

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in which it become something that is constantly happening.

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Becoming sustainable is instead of

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being sustainable is has to happen all the time.

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And at the same time we don't know how to observe that are

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so used to observe what is fixed

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that we fix it in order to observe it.

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So it's almost like we go backwards and the way we write

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and the way we explain and so on and so forth.

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So this way in which this that I am saying is

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trying to make or talk about sustainability as a becoming

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as something that is happening.

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It also was something that was already being done

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by other people because as I, what I have, I have

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to say I entered this conversation in this particular moment

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in which we did this paper already knowing

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that other people were already

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other people in organization studies were already

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paying attention in ways that were trending toward,

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toward this way of thinking about, you know, a very,

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a much more active,

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way in which the becoming itself sustainable.

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Its necessarily an action

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that have is required.

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And here is when we get a little bit complicated

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because what it require is also to think that

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everything that you know, to become, in other words,

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to become really paying attention to

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what else is happening here, well this is that you have

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to really pay attention to is

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that there is agency in more than humans.

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In other words, if there is agency in more than humans,

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agency in effect does seem when you have agency is

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because something is being done

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otherwise you cannot claim it.

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But if when we go back to the idea that agency is not only

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human but actually the non-human also has

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agency, we have to think for example

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that when I push a rock,

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the rock is actually pushing me back.

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That is something that we don't pay attention to.

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So it is there, it is in Anate, it doesn't,

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but in fact there is, for me to even be able to push,

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there has to be a force against me.

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And therefore that in itself, if you think now the rock is

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probably the most extreme example that I can think

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of something that we don't think that has agency,

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but think about animal, think about plants, I oftentimes

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laugh about plants are asking me to please water me

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because they show me what they need

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and if I have to re, you know, I either kill them

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or I respond immediately to their request.

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So all of these example that I'm giving you

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is more than anything else to I guess

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facilitate then understanding how not only us

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but the people all already in organization studies as well,

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that were already paying attention, trying to pay,

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pay attention to sustainability as made up

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of much more than human entities is

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because we already have gone through the process of thinking

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through the idea that there is agency in more than

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human beings and therefore what would that mean?

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It also what does it mean in terms of, you know,

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making a conceptual contribution to how

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to think about these things

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and write about them for the field

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of organizational studies.

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That in itself is not thinking

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that way in many other ways.

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The exactly what we were trying to do was

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with these new ideas, trying to decenter

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from the conversations in organizational studies,

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the idea of sustainability,

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the way they were thinking conventionally.

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So it two things, it had to try to make it not

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anthropocentric and to try to make it

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not about the domination of nature.

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So both here we had other resources to deal with so

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much more in, you know, both in philosophy,

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in new materialist feminist works

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and in other fields that are associated with these ideas.

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There were the idea,

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and in fact this is specifically the Theus and Qatari work.

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They were thinking from the perspective, these philosophers

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1983 and 1987 is the major works that we used.

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They were thinking from the perspective of that many

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of the things that they themselves were doing in philosophy

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were seemingly very estranged from the perspective

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of other philosophers.

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And therefore they were trying

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to articulate in which ways their ideas were in fact

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require not just to present itself

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as in the major field of philosophy,

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but actually a way to take away from philosophy.

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What philosophy as it was couldn't pay attention

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to this would be a way to pretty much think about this.

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And so, but the way they thought about it was okay in order

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to be able to do that, there is a major literature

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that is the literature, the major iterate,

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philosophical terms, a major philosophies that are,

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you know, basically dominating the field.

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So what is necessary is first

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editorialize the that major language that major

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and create a minor literature that is not, that is going

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to take the place of the major one,

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but is going to serve as an irritant a

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constant reminder that the mayor literature

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has this problem and how to

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therefore to think about differently.

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And so, and

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therefore this idea of becoming an

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agency and all always in an active way

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is very much of creating a minor literature,

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which would be the irritant

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because it never stop happening.

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It's constantly creating it constantly.

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And so the in, if we see the world, we go back to the story.

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If we see the world of sustainability from the perspective

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of human, human centered

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and human dominating nature, you know,

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that in itself is like a quest that have a, you know,

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then we are going to have cul

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and that's why we have sort of green technology

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and we want to invent things again, dominating nature

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that we can sort of control the problem

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versus the idea that you know,

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that your problem is your thinking,

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you have a a thinking problem and therefore,

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but you need to be constantly reminded

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that you have a thinking program.

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And so you can think that way,

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but then we are going to remind you now there is another way

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to think about this and this thing never ends.

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It's always happening

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and you have to learn how to, to do that, you have

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to learn to think that way.

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So this is part of what we were trying to do and

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therefore that

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what ended up being the case study really was trying to,

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you know, experimenting to, if it was possible to even

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do research with using these ideas

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as the conceptual framework.

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The research was pretty much trying to create

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precisely a human descenter way

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to get to get into the field.

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And so typically this is, you know, the study itself

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typically require precisely

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because it was in a supply chain, it required

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sunset that is called multi-sided ethnography, meaning

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that theno theno is not located in one single place,

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but it's actually traveling with the phenomena is going,

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you know, the, that it trying to study in this case, trying

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to study sustainability as a process in which

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in many ways there are many agents

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that have entered in a process of creating

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what is sustainability.

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So in other words, following the,

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in this multi-sided way, also following it with a particular

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framework of the type of methodological approaches

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that actually account for precisely two type of thing.

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One, the agency of the others and therefore the animals

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or the plants or the machines or whatever.

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And at the same time it would be a flat ontology.

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And this, which is another way to think about it, was

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instead of the typical hierarchical approach

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that we take and which the, the person

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who is doing the research who is in the field is above

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the, everything that is being studied in this case,

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the most important thing was that the person

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who is entered the field to do the research in this ca case

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actually has to be with in the same plane of action

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as the things that she's studying and

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therefore becoming with the other that worthy becoming with

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required that idea that you are not studying hierarchically

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but you are study studying horizontally in a

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flat plane.

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You are not above anything.

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And that also with a certain kind of

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that you do not know happening

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that in fact the minute you enter, you are part

17:52.525 --> 17:54.285
of the happening that is going on,

17:55.305 --> 17:57.165
but you are learning as you go along

17:57.165 --> 17:59.965
because you really don't know.

18:00.425 --> 18:04.125
And that is another, is an attitude, a way

18:04.125 --> 18:07.125
of being in the world as a researcher

18:07.795 --> 18:10.485
that was central to doing this work.

18:10.665 --> 18:14.405
It was ri traveling originally to the farms in

18:14.405 --> 18:17.965
with a cotton seed that eventually were is

18:18.225 --> 18:22.205
or the whole story is the unfolding of how from

18:22.865 --> 18:25.445
the seed, the of cotton

18:25.745 --> 18:29.285
of a cotton plant ends up being a sustainable t-shirt.

18:29.505 --> 18:31.565
That's the, that's the whole story.

18:32.405 --> 18:35.265
But the travel then it start from the farm

18:35.885 --> 18:39.465
and then it go through different, activities

18:39.465 --> 18:42.825
that happen on the way in the supply chain when they close

18:43.285 --> 18:45.145
the, the fabric is going

18:45.145 --> 18:48.345
to become from the cotton seed eventually is,

18:48.445 --> 18:52.305
is really bolts of cotton in the road that end up being

18:53.185 --> 18:58.145
creating into thread that become eventually the fabric

18:58.335 --> 19:02.425
that become eventually died, that become eventually,

19:03.125 --> 19:04.345
in the court

19:04.685 --> 19:08.425
and sew facility until it become a T-shirt.

19:09.165 --> 19:11.985
And so all the storytelling

19:12.175 --> 19:16.505
that happened throughout the case is in fact, sir,

19:16.625 --> 19:21.285
I encountered at the same time with these other entities

19:21.475 --> 19:25.125
that include humans, people that clean the floor in order

19:25.225 --> 19:28.325
for the fabric to not get dirty, the fabric

19:28.555 --> 19:33.045
that basically is constantly getting entangling into the

19:33.045 --> 19:36.005
machines and supposedly the people

19:36.385 --> 19:40.125
who advertise these things is, is all an automatic process.

19:41.005 --> 19:44.605
And what Aria is observing is people are constantly dusting

19:44.605 --> 19:45.685
the place because you

19:45.685 --> 19:49.325
otherwise it, the machine get tangled, people get fired

19:49.325 --> 19:52.685
because the fabric got dirty in the dive facilities.

19:52.985 --> 19:55.285
She has, she encountered this enormous machine

19:55.285 --> 19:57.125
that make an incredible noise.

19:58.325 --> 20:01.445
Supposedly this is very sustainable, but it use tons

20:01.545 --> 20:02.645
and tons of water

20:05.505 --> 20:10.045
and on top of it, it really never exact the color

20:10.555 --> 20:12.645
that is supposed to happen and

20:12.645 --> 20:15.525
therefore there is, you know, all of these questions

20:15.785 --> 20:17.525
and we are super automated

20:17.665 --> 20:19.405
and there is all this technology,

20:20.065 --> 20:21.645
we are totally sustainable,

20:22.025 --> 20:25.415
but all of these other things are not being

20:25.985 --> 20:27.255
taken into account.

20:27.555 --> 20:32.255
You sort of, and so at the end, once they, it get to be,

20:32.395 --> 20:35.935
you know, sort of the fabric is made and it get cut

20:36.075 --> 20:37.095
and it gets sun

20:37.155 --> 20:41.015
and it become a T-shirt, the symptom is the only place

20:41.015 --> 20:44.895
where the label sustainability really appear throughout the

20:44.895 --> 20:46.575
whole process is

20:46.895 --> 20:50.855
Actually because there is some agency

20:50.875 --> 20:53.655
or entity that actually guarantee

20:54.275 --> 20:56.735
and has a CO guarantee

20:57.485 --> 21:00.495
that actually this is a sustainable T-shirt and

21:00.495 --> 21:03.095
therefore even that CO guarantee

21:03.095 --> 21:07.535
that is a sustainable t-shirt is in itself already another

21:07.605 --> 21:08.695
that have agency.

21:08.955 --> 21:12.335
So you see that the machine have agency, the people

21:12.435 --> 21:16.055
who clean the place of agency, the, you know, the,

21:16.475 --> 21:19.895
the things that are attached to the, the, you know,

21:19.895 --> 21:21.055
to making a t-shirt.

21:21.315 --> 21:25.855
So the sustainable t-shirt at the end is really the product

21:26.035 --> 21:30.935
of all of these entanglements that are really the

21:31.565 --> 21:36.255
what becoming nature cultural give us a glimpse

21:36.355 --> 21:38.775
of that is, you know, that this is a becoming,

21:38.885 --> 21:42.615
that is a process that there is agency of many entities

21:43.355 --> 21:47.535
and that there are in many ways not a simple

21:48.325 --> 21:50.335
imagining that we can control nature

21:50.635 --> 21:53.815
or anything else for that matter is

21:53.815 --> 21:58.375
that it is a constant doing in order to be able to claim

21:58.405 --> 22:00.375
that there is anything controllable

22:00.475 --> 22:02.095
or sustainable for that matter.

22:03.035 --> 22:07.655
So, and bringing that to visibility, making it

22:08.165 --> 22:12.775
writing the case, so that that is is a, is a minor

22:13.935 --> 22:15.855
literature is this is what's happening.

22:16.035 --> 22:20.335
We have been seeking that becoming nature, cultural, that

22:21.165 --> 22:25.795
basic framing that we use and that in fact is what happened.

22:25.935 --> 22:27.795
The whole thing is a becoming nature,

22:28.155 --> 22:30.475
cultural is becoming throughout the whole process from

22:30.475 --> 22:34.915
conceptually to having done the, the study to get ending

22:35.735 --> 22:40.275
is we consider them that we have devised two tools.

22:41.215 --> 22:45.155
One is to think with that becoming nature cultural,

22:45.225 --> 22:49.755
give us a way to think about what we call as sustainability

22:50.375 --> 22:55.195
to be really something that has all these implications of

22:55.775 --> 22:57.755
all the people that have been involved.

22:58.015 --> 22:59.475
So it's almost again the

22:59.475 --> 23:01.595
Irritant Of saying yes,

23:01.655 --> 23:03.795
but you are not taking this into account.

23:04.255 --> 23:07.915
Yes, but you are not really, you say it's sustainable,

23:07.935 --> 23:10.075
but how are you, what are you calling sustainable?

23:10.535 --> 23:14.115
And in which ways, if you think this other way is not going

23:14.115 --> 23:16.035
to look the same as you thought.

23:17.035 --> 23:18.735
So that's one thing. The other thing,

23:18.755 --> 23:21.775
and I think that at this point is the one that

23:22.335 --> 23:24.575
produced the most relevant for from the perspective

23:24.595 --> 23:28.015
of having written the case is actually how

23:28.035 --> 23:29.335
to write about this

23:29.645 --> 23:32.735
because we are so used to write

23:33.675 --> 23:36.295
in a particular way that is linear,

23:36.965 --> 23:41.345
That take away from a lot of these, you know,

23:41.745 --> 23:44.785
entanglements, things that are incomprehensible

23:45.145 --> 23:48.525
and we in some way have to get them resolved at the end

23:48.525 --> 23:52.695
of the story because this approach that we are taking

23:53.275 --> 23:55.945
new materialism approach really

23:57.025 --> 23:58.925
is never ending. We

23:58.925 --> 24:01.165
Are Presenting it as a never ending.

24:01.435 --> 24:05.485
Well the writing that we do has to be always experimental

24:06.555 --> 24:10.925
precisely because we are trying to intervene in problems

24:10.925 --> 24:13.645
that have been thought about in a particular way

24:13.795 --> 24:15.165
that we keep on having them.

24:15.705 --> 24:17.325
And it's because we want to capture

24:17.545 --> 24:20.725
and finish with them rather than to think, no, it's going

24:20.725 --> 24:22.085
to continue happening

24:22.725 --> 24:25.365
and we, what we think we know today is going

24:25.365 --> 24:26.565
to be relevant tomorrow.

24:27.025 --> 24:29.685
So we have to experiment some more.

24:30.225 --> 24:33.485
And this idea of becoming that is

24:34.075 --> 24:37.245
many more agencies involved, many more

24:38.075 --> 24:41.605
different entities we have to pay attention to

24:41.915 --> 24:45.885
that in itself give us that space for start thinking

24:45.915 --> 24:49.485
that we are never finished, that we have to reinvent.

24:49.545 --> 24:53.725
And that including becoming nature cultural was the product

24:53.905 --> 24:55.165
of this particular project,

24:55.905 --> 25:00.685
but in itself is imminent to its condition of appearance

25:01.145 --> 25:03.565
and therefore it is not a concept that then you're going

25:03.565 --> 25:04.965
to be using in another project.

25:05.795 --> 25:07.885
Just as you know. That's the theory,

25:08.145 --> 25:10.925
The final conclusion if I'm going to make anymore

25:11.745 --> 25:14.695
the Anthropocene is still a problem

25:15.035 --> 25:17.255
and in fact it's still being defined.

25:17.485 --> 25:21.135
It's still the discussion of when did it really is there,

25:21.275 --> 25:22.855
but when did it start?

25:23.435 --> 25:28.175
And therefore I think that if we maintain our commitment

25:28.275 --> 25:31.335
to look at the Anthropocene, like a guiding light,

25:32.795 --> 25:35.915
a big con that always keep on moving,

25:37.365 --> 25:40.585
it also give us the opportunity

25:40.885 --> 25:44.625
to continue doing work that really speaks

25:45.515 --> 25:49.325
differently to the problems that we are observing.

25:49.665 --> 25:54.575
And so I think that we are not done by any means

25:54.765 --> 25:56.095
that this is, I hope

25:56.095 --> 26:00.695
that the paper itself has sufficient opening for others

26:00.915 --> 26:04.775
to be able to think a little bit, you know, more deeply

26:05.925 --> 26:09.835
into trying to decenter the human, the kind

26:09.835 --> 26:13.355
of human in the center that has created so much damage

26:13.815 --> 26:16.755
and continue to, to make so much damage.

Exploring the Anthropocene and Sustainability Issues

00:00:00 - Let me set the context for this work because this would be part of what I think is important in order to understand what I've been doing and what we've been doing. So many years ago, probably early in the, around 20 0 7, 2 0 8, the question of the Anthropocene became very central in the conversations we were, it was everywhere. We were listening to both popular press and academic press
00:00:37 - whether we were really in a new geological era where humans are for the first time the mayor culprits in whatever is happening environmentally and so on. And so that in itself, because I was already interested in sustainability as part of the more critical project that I tend to do, you know, sort of like saying we are doing not much for the environment and,
00:01:07 - in organizational studies already, which was paying attention to how we were really creating a lot of problem, environmental problems and so on. So it, it wasn't new really, but it was like a revival of an interest that I had had more, much earlier because of that precise Anthropocene sort of figure suddenly coming into the picture. And so at the same time, more or less of a, during the same period, actually Sara Organic
00:01:41 - and she became my student. And so that Sara enter, with me into this situation in which we in fact had got an entry into a company that claimed to have been doing the most sustainable possible pro products in the world. And that it was doing it for the good on the planet, which was somewhat early. If we think from the perspective of we are talking about,
00:02:12 - but it was already in the air. Absolutely. And this company have been, I think it was founded in the 1980s and we had always been a sustainability oriented company when it wasn't even a conversation. And so therefore, for reasons that are most longer to explain, we ended up having the opportunity to actually enter the company and do research in the US where it's located
00:02:42 - Sir, I eventually in some of the shops that the company has, these are fashion companies and it was very, very productive in many ways. So sir, I collected data in multiple ways early to try to understand what was about the industry that created these situations. Also later on in part of the, her dissertation, so that this particular article that was published very recently actually is part of

Navigating Sustainability: Collaborative Research Insights

00:03:17 - that already at this point this would be, we survived the fourth publication that we had in during the past, I would say since 2016. And then, that is, we still have one more that is at this point on the review so that it would be get approved, accepted. It would be the fifth one with Sarai. But also I had all the writing that I've been doing, I just
00:03:51 - for organization study feminism, a new materialisms, which is again part of the, this big much bigger picture. So Sarai in this particular paper was an incredible part of the research. So she really is, I am talking of the more conceptual aspect of it because I was more involved with creating the conceptualization,
00:04:21 - And the data collection and meaning the, in the context of the data collection is really totally sized work. And so I don't want to let it go because I think that she is not deserving naming her, but she is a centerpiece of this much larger conversation that having her as a partnering crime has been a blessing for me as a scholar.
00:04:54 - if you look at it, it's the whole neoism that we are getting to develop is actually very active. It's a becoming is an action. It's happen. It is happening. And nature cultural is cannot exist without the becoming. In other words, it, it becomes constantly, and this is one thing that I think is important because is what perhaps make the ideas in the paper
00:05:25 - One of the things that is we are trying to do at the more larger picture here is conceptually theoretically using resources that already exist to think from the perspective of all the time that we talk about sustainability, it's a thing. Sustainability is an object and it's not only an object, it's an object that have acquired, acquired centrality in a way that it have been fixed as something
00:05:58 - The human In the center, The anthropos andrism and then it actually determine what culture is and what we Do with it. And therefore, and usually the Interests are Really economic interest behind it. There is a, the human that we are talking about Here Is not just any human, Is A human that actually is thinking that it already have the

Redefining Sustainability in a Dynamic Context

00:06:29 - and usually thinking from the perspective of very western neoliberal Economic premises and Therefore this combination have become or have made sustainability become a thing that at this point we don't really know what it is because it is just so poorly to determine, for example, companies becoming sustainable, meaning sustainable economically, but don't necessarily talking
00:06:59 - So way to think about this project was what we were going to do was to recapture sustainability and to bring it Down to a way to think about it in which it become something that is constantly happening. Becoming sustainable is instead of being sustainable is has to happen all the time. And at the same time we don't know how to observe that are so used to observe what is fixed
00:07:32 - So it's almost like we go backwards and the way we write and the way we explain and so on and so forth. So this way in which this that I am saying is trying to make or talk about sustainability as a becoming as something that is happening. It also was something that was already being done by other people because as I, what I have, I have to say I entered this conversation in this particular moment in which we did this paper already knowing
00:08:04 - other people in organization studies were already paying attention in ways that were trending toward, toward this way of thinking about, you know, a very, a much more active, way in which the becoming itself sustainable. Its necessarily an action that have is required. And here is when we get a little bit complicated because what it require is also to think that
00:08:38 - to become really paying attention to what else is happening here, well this is that you have to really pay attention to is that there is agency in more than humans. In other words, if there is agency in more than humans, agency in effect does seem when you have agency is because something is being done otherwise you cannot claim it.
00:09:12 - human but actually the non-human also has agency, we have to think for example that when I push a rock, the rock is actually pushing me back. That is something that we don't pay attention to. So it is there, it is in Anate, it doesn't, but in fact there is, for me to even be able to push,

Rethinking Agency Beyond the Human Scope

00:09:40 - And therefore that in itself, if you think now the rock is probably the most extreme example that I can think of something that we don't think that has agency, but think about animal, think about plants, I oftentimes laugh about plants are asking me to please water me because they show me what they need and if I have to re, you know, I either kill them or I respond immediately to their request.
00:10:12 - is more than anything else to I guess facilitate then understanding how not only us but the people all already in organization studies as well, that were already paying attention, trying to pay, pay attention to sustainability as made up of much more than human entities is because we already have gone through the process of thinking through the idea that there is agency in more than
00:10:47 - It also what does it mean in terms of, you know, making a conceptual contribution to how to think about these things and write about them for the field of organizational studies. That in itself is not thinking that way in many other ways. The exactly what we were trying to do was with these new ideas, trying to decenter
00:11:19 - the idea of sustainability, the way they were thinking conventionally. So it two things, it had to try to make it not anthropocentric and to try to make it not about the domination of nature. So both here we had other resources to deal with so much more in, you know, both in philosophy,
00:11:49 - and in other fields that are associated with these ideas. There were the idea, and in fact this is specifically the Theus and Qatari work. They were thinking from the perspective, these philosophers 1983 and 1987 is the major works that we used. They were thinking from the perspective of that many of the things that they themselves were doing in philosophy
00:12:19 - of other philosophers. And therefore they were trying to articulate in which ways their ideas were in fact require not just to present itself as in the major field of philosophy, but actually a way to take away from philosophy. What philosophy as it was couldn't pay attention to this would be a way to pretty much think about this.

Creating Minor Literature in Sustainability Discourse

00:12:51 - to be able to do that, there is a major literature that is the literature, the major iterate, philosophical terms, a major philosophies that are, you know, basically dominating the field. So what is necessary is first editorialize the that major language that major and create a minor literature that is not, that is going
00:13:21 - but is going to serve as an irritant a constant reminder that the mayor literature has this problem and how to therefore to think about differently. And so, and therefore this idea of becoming an agency and all always in an active way is very much of creating a minor literature,
00:13:52 - because it never stop happening. It's constantly creating it constantly. And so the in, if we see the world, we go back to the story. If we see the world of sustainability from the perspective of human, human centered and human dominating nature, you know, that in itself is like a quest that have a, you know, then we are going to have cul
00:14:23 - and we want to invent things again, dominating nature that we can sort of control the problem versus the idea that you know, that your problem is your thinking, you have a a thinking problem and therefore, but you need to be constantly reminded that you have a thinking program. And so you can think that way, but then we are going to remind you now there is another way to think about this and this thing never ends.
00:14:52 - and you have to learn how to, to do that, you have to learn to think that way. So this is part of what we were trying to do and therefore that what ended up being the case study really was trying to, you know, experimenting to, if it was possible to even do research with using these ideas as the conceptual framework. The research was pretty much trying to create
00:15:27 - to get to get into the field. And so typically this is, you know, the study itself typically require precisely because it was in a supply chain, it required sunset that is called multi-sided ethnography, meaning that theno theno is not located in one single place,

Exploring Sustainability Through a Multi-Sided Lens

00:15:57 - you know, the, that it trying to study in this case, trying to study sustainability as a process in which in many ways there are many agents that have entered in a process of creating what is sustainability. So in other words, following the, in this multi-sided way, also following it with a particular
00:16:30 - that actually account for precisely two type of thing. One, the agency of the others and therefore the animals or the plants or the machines or whatever. And at the same time it would be a flat ontology. And this, which is another way to think about it, was instead of the typical hierarchical approach
00:17:00 - who is doing the research who is in the field is above the, everything that is being studied in this case, the most important thing was that the person who is entered the field to do the research in this ca case actually has to be with in the same plane of action as the things that she's studying and therefore becoming with the other that worthy becoming with
00:17:35 - but you are study studying horizontally in a flat plane. You are not above anything. And that also with a certain kind of that you do not know happening that in fact the minute you enter, you are part of the happening that is going on, but you are learning as you go along because you really don't know. And that is another, is an attitude, a way
00:18:07 - that was central to doing this work. It was ri traveling originally to the farms in with a cotton seed that eventually were is or the whole story is the unfolding of how from the seed, the of cotton of a cotton plant ends up being a sustainable t-shirt. That's the, that's the whole story. But the travel then it start from the farm
00:18:39 - that happen on the way in the supply chain when they close the, the fabric is going to become from the cotton seed eventually is, is really bolts of cotton in the road that end up being creating into thread that become eventually the fabric that become eventually died, that become eventually, in the court and sew facility until it become a T-shirt.

Entangled Processes in Sustainable T-Shirt Production

00:19:12 - that happened throughout the case is in fact, sir, I encountered at the same time with these other entities that include humans, people that clean the floor in order for the fabric to not get dirty, the fabric that basically is constantly getting entangling into the machines and supposedly the people who advertise these things is, is all an automatic process.
00:19:44 - the place because you otherwise it, the machine get tangled, people get fired because the fabric got dirty in the dive facilities. She has, she encountered this enormous machine that make an incredible noise. Supposedly this is very sustainable, but it use tons and tons of water and on top of it, it really never exact the color that is supposed to happen and
00:20:15 - and we are super automated and there is all this technology, we are totally sustainable, but all of these other things are not being taken into account. You sort of, and so at the end, once they, it get to be, you know, sort of the fabric is made and it get cut and it gets sun and it become a T-shirt, the symptom is the only place where the label sustainability really appear throughout the
00:20:46 - Actually because there is some agency or entity that actually guarantee and has a CO guarantee that actually this is a sustainable T-shirt and therefore even that CO guarantee that is a sustainable t-shirt is in itself already another that have agency. So you see that the machine have agency, the people who clean the place of agency, the, you know, the,
00:21:19 - to making a t-shirt. So the sustainable t-shirt at the end is really the product of all of these entanglements that are really the what becoming nature cultural give us a glimpse of that is, you know, that this is a becoming, that is a process that there is agency of many entities and that there are in many ways not a simple
00:21:50 - or anything else for that matter is that it is a constant doing in order to be able to claim that there is anything controllable or sustainable for that matter. So, and bringing that to visibility, making it writing the case, so that that is is a, is a minor literature is this is what's happening. We have been seeking that becoming nature, cultural, that

Reimagining Sustainability Through Continuous Becoming

00:22:25 - The whole thing is a becoming nature, cultural is becoming throughout the whole process from conceptually to having done the, the study to get ending is we consider them that we have devised two tools. One is to think with that becoming nature cultural, give us a way to think about what we call as sustainability to be really something that has all these implications of
00:22:58 - So it's almost again the Irritant Of saying yes, but you are not taking this into account. Yes, but you are not really, you say it's sustainable, but how are you, what are you calling sustainable? And in which ways, if you think this other way is not going to look the same as you thought. So that's one thing. The other thing, and I think that at this point is the one that produced the most relevant for from the perspective of having written the case is actually how
00:23:29 - because we are so used to write in a particular way that is linear, That take away from a lot of these, you know, entanglements, things that are incomprehensible and we in some way have to get them resolved at the end of the story because this approach that we are taking new materialism approach really is never ending. We
00:24:01 - Well the writing that we do has to be always experimental precisely because we are trying to intervene in problems that have been thought about in a particular way that we keep on having them. And it's because we want to capture and finish with them rather than to think, no, it's going to continue happening and we, what we think we know today is going to be relevant tomorrow. So we have to experiment some more.
00:24:34 - many more agencies involved, many more different entities we have to pay attention to that in itself give us that space for start thinking that we are never finished, that we have to reinvent. And that including becoming nature cultural was the product of this particular project, but in itself is imminent to its condition of appearance
00:25:03 - to be using in another project. Just as you know. That's the theory, The final conclusion if I'm going to make anymore the Anthropocene is still a problem and in fact it's still being defined. It's still the discussion of when did it really is there, but when did it start? And therefore I think that if we maintain our commitment to look at the Anthropocene, like a guiding light,

Redefining Human Impact on Sustainability Discourse

00:25:37 - it also give us the opportunity to continue doing work that really speaks differently to the problems that we are observing. And so I think that we are not done by any means that this is, I hope that the paper itself has sufficient opening for others to be able to think a little bit, you know, more deeply
00:26:13 - of human in the center that has created so much damage and continue to, to make so much damage.

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