Popular in Sociology

Social Identities and Divisions

A new explanation of antisemitism: Jew hatred as a civilisational phenomenon

Boston University Liah Greenfeld

Culture and Society

The City as a Growth Machine: Toward a Political Economy of Place

New York University Harvey Moltoch

Culture and Society

Pre-problem families: predictive analytics and the future as the present

University of Southampton Rosalind Edwards

Ethnicity and Racism

Were Muslim Barbarians Really Knocking On the Gates of Ontario?

University of Ottawa Natasha Bakht

Culture and Society

Poor People’s Survival Strategies

The University of Texas at Austin Javier Auyero

Ethnicity and Racism

Sociology of Whiteness

Arizona State University Monica McDermott

Ethnicity and Racism

Narratives of Harm and the case for detention abolition

Queen's University Sharry Aiken

Carceral Entrapments: Views from the Prison/Street Interface in India

View more insights in Social Sciences - Sociology - Culture and Society

View more figures from Indian Institute of Technology Delhi

View the page of Mahuya Bandyopadhya

Read the Study

Next in Culture and Society

Circumcision and Medicine in Modern Turkey

Oyman Basaran | Bowdoin College

Planning for the Wrong Pandemic

Andrew Lakoff | University of Southern California

Mahuya Bandyopadhya discusses the culture of incarceration or ‘carceral culture’ in modern India by drawing on ideas of the prison/street interface.

Image courtesy of interviewee. April 15, 2024

Log-in or Sign-up to Faculti
Currently viewing this subject insight as a guest. You have insight(s) remaining for this month. Login to view 8000+ figures on the platform.

Generating Workspace...

Export as PDF

This video video is a transcript of a discussion led by an academic focusing on their research related to contemporary Indian culture, specifically regarding the experiences of prisoners and marginalized communities. The speaker reflects on their doctoral fieldwork conducted in a West Bengal prison. They observed a phenomenon of "narrative inversion" among young male prisoners, who perceived incarceration as a space of possibility in contrast to their constrained neighborhoods.

The speaker elaborates on the concept of "castral culture," highlighting how environments outside prison, such as neighborhoods and streets, can exhibit similar dynamics of control and marginalization. They discuss the methodological challenges of studying criminal lives and assert that the phenomena of hyper-incarceration, hyper-surveillance, and the presence of carceral conditions extend beyond prison walls into the lives of those categorized as disposable by the state.

The speaker emphasizes the importance of using ethnographic methods to uncover underrepresented voices and critique the tendency to generalize findings from individual narratives. They specifically highlight the experiences of women prisoners and local "goons," showing how their stories reveal societal vulnerabilities and tensions.

Additionally, the speaker critiques the processes that define and maintain disposability within communities, linking it to broader societal structures and state actions that aim to isolate and control certain populations. They call for a recognition of the complexity of these issues and suggest a need for a decolonial perspective in academic research, arguing that a comprehensive understanding of prison and societal structures must consider a range of intersecting influences, including patriarchal family dynamics and socio-political factors.

Language:

Export as PDF

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

00:00.055 --> 00:00.765
Thank you, Sam.

00:00.945 --> 00:02.765
Uh, it's a pleasure to do this

00:03.065 --> 00:04.685
and talk about my work with you.

00:04.995 --> 00:08.725
Yeah. So I think, the idea for, writing on culture,

00:08.915 --> 00:11.965
castral cultures in contemporary India actually comes from

00:12.025 --> 00:15.805
my doctoral, field work, which was in,

00:15.805 --> 00:18.765
in a prison in, west Ngal in, India.

00:19.585 --> 00:21.845
And, in that, I found

00:21.845 --> 00:24.605
that many young male prisoners were actually doing

00:24.605 --> 00:25.765
this narrative inversion.

00:25.765 --> 00:29.005
And by narrative inversion, I really mean that they were,

00:29.505 --> 00:31.805
inverting the way they saw the prison

00:32.065 --> 00:33.965
and the para or the neighborhood.

00:34.505 --> 00:37.845
Uh, and what they would do is that,

00:38.915 --> 00:41.325
they would think of the neighborhood as a space

00:41.325 --> 00:43.285
of these insurmountable constraints.

00:43.905 --> 00:47.485
And in contrast, the prison would appear as a space that,

00:47.825 --> 00:52.165
actually offered space to, to take decisions, to do

00:52.165 --> 00:55.005
what they wanted to, to explore and so on.

00:55.005 --> 00:58.285
So I think that, the prison became a space

00:58.285 --> 01:01.605
of possibility, became a space with, of possibility

01:01.635 --> 01:05.005
with the potential for, agency, resistance

01:05.105 --> 01:06.845
and freedom, and that that's not

01:06.845 --> 01:07.965
how one thinks of the prison.

01:08.295 --> 01:10.045
Right. And of course,

01:10.045 --> 01:11.765
this narrative inversion is narrative.

01:11.825 --> 01:14.885
So it is looking at the neighborhood from the context

01:14.985 --> 01:16.885
of the, from the vantage point of the prison.

01:17.425 --> 01:19.205
Uh, but it is this that I wanted

01:19.225 --> 01:20.845
to actually explore further.

01:21.465 --> 01:25.685
And that was the beginning of some of the, sort

01:25.685 --> 01:28.205
of thinking around, caer reality

01:28.505 --> 01:30.605
and what I would call the casal mesh.

01:30.865 --> 01:33.405
Uh, because, and then, you know, in order to do this,

01:33.645 --> 01:35.085
what I did next was to try

01:35.085 --> 01:38.845
and find people, in, an underprivileged neighborhood

01:39.185 --> 01:42.165
who would fit this, you know, understanding

01:42.185 --> 01:43.645
who would be able to give an understanding

01:43.705 --> 01:46.005
and people who actually traverse both the

01:46.005 --> 01:47.365
prison and the neighborhood.

01:47.985 --> 01:49.445
Uh, now this was difficult to do,

01:49.745 --> 01:53.125
and, the paper that we are talking about today,

01:53.345 --> 01:56.685
you know, has just one narrative of,

01:56.905 --> 01:58.205
of such a person.

01:58.825 --> 02:00.805
But what I'm trying to do is to indicate

02:00.805 --> 02:04.565
that actually if you one looks at criminal careers,

02:04.985 --> 02:08.285
and especially in, if I think of it in, in the context

02:08.305 --> 02:11.645
of Bengal and in the context of the kind of context,

02:11.805 --> 02:15.525
politics and violence, you know, that politics involves,

02:15.945 --> 02:17.885
I think one can, you know,

02:17.905 --> 02:19.765
one can make this argument

02:19.865 --> 02:22.725
of the Castel mesh in certain kinds of lives,

02:23.185 --> 02:26.045
and that is what, the paper was actually trying to do.

02:26.225 --> 02:30.285
But tied to that is also a methodological question of then

02:30.285 --> 02:31.565
where does one study the prison?

02:32.025 --> 02:34.645
And where does one study, criminal lives?

02:34.745 --> 02:38.045
And it's not just the prison, you know, you could study,

02:38.145 --> 02:41.125
prison and prison-like circumstances

02:41.225 --> 02:42.605
and environments outside

02:42.605 --> 02:44.205
of these criminal justice institutions

02:44.205 --> 02:46.525
or outside of these sites of confinement.

02:46.985 --> 02:50.365
So, you know, all these, there's a sim, there's a similarity

02:50.365 --> 02:52.805
and an overlap of understanding in these three terms,

02:52.805 --> 02:55.965
whether you one talks of ca castral turn, castral condition,

02:56.115 --> 02:58.805
castral mesh, or Castral age,

02:58.995 --> 03:00.885
They're signifying two or three things.

03:01.095 --> 03:04.365
First is, the idea of hyper incarceration.

03:04.545 --> 03:05.565
And, you know, there's a lot

03:05.565 --> 03:08.565
of literature which addresses this mass imprisonment.

03:08.785 --> 03:12.445
The, the, basically the rise of incarceration of,

03:12.545 --> 03:16.685
and here the rise is of certain groups of population, right?

03:17.025 --> 03:18.965
Uh, certain kinds of population.

03:18.965 --> 03:23.645
So we know it's, you know, if one,

03:23.645 --> 03:27.005
if one thinks of it in the Indian context, we, we know

03:27.005 --> 03:29.165
that there are caste, tribe

03:29.265 --> 03:31.765
and other marginal identities, which tend

03:31.765 --> 03:34.325
to be overrepresented in the prison population.

03:34.665 --> 03:37.765
So, so the rise of incarceration of certain groups

03:37.765 --> 03:40.925
of population in most countries across the world,

03:40.985 --> 03:45.045
so incarceration then becomes to be, comes to be seen as,

03:45.625 --> 03:49.845
the kind of the valid response o of the state in order

03:49.945 --> 03:54.045
to isolate the dis disposable p population in order

03:54.045 --> 03:56.485
to segregate them from the rest of the population.

03:56.865 --> 04:00.525
The second is this presence of ality,

04:00.585 --> 04:03.525
or carceral conditions beyond the typical

04:03.665 --> 04:05.605
and obvious carceral institution.

04:05.605 --> 04:08.845
So one does not need to look at sites of confinement.

04:08.845 --> 04:13.605
So if I think of, you know, a, a a site of protest

04:14.025 --> 04:17.525
and how that is, sought to be controlled

04:17.945 --> 04:21.325
or how protests, you know, so then you have, you know,

04:21.325 --> 04:23.285
for instance, in India currently with regard

04:23.285 --> 04:26.205
to the farmers pro protest, the state has been putting up,

04:26.585 --> 04:29.685
you know, dividers has been putting up barricades in

04:29.685 --> 04:32.885
order to not allow people to enter certain spaces.

04:33.025 --> 04:34.765
So there is a kind of blocking off

04:34.785 --> 04:38.125
or a kind of isolation that happens similar to what,

04:38.155 --> 04:39.605
what would happen in, in a prison.

04:39.705 --> 04:41.965
So the presence of ality,

04:42.185 --> 04:44.445
in spaces which are not carceral.

04:44.865 --> 04:46.965
And I think third, with, with, along

04:46.965 --> 04:50.085
with this hyper incarceration, you have hyper surveillance

04:50.945 --> 04:54.165
and, you know, so you have hyper surveillance

04:54.165 --> 04:56.645
and the use of new technologies to actually monitor,

04:57.275 --> 05:00.285
control, discipline, your population,

05:00.345 --> 05:04.485
and also identify that dissenting voice, which needs

05:04.485 --> 05:07.005
to then be marked as disposable.

05:07.265 --> 05:08.365
And,

05:08.505 --> 05:12.045
and isolated from the, so this is, I think this is what we,

05:12.195 --> 05:15.805
what I understand by, the increase in ality

05:15.865 --> 05:18.005
or the castral term in Castral age.

05:18.485 --> 05:22.365
I think, you know, in all my work, I've,

05:22.515 --> 05:26.885
I've, I'm now I've now been trying to look at how one can,

05:27.465 --> 05:29.925
use ethnography

05:30.105 --> 05:34.125
or the qualitative data, narratives in order

05:34.265 --> 05:38.365
to make some of these, connections between,

05:39.325 --> 05:42.385
sort of institutional spaces of confinement

05:42.765 --> 05:44.665
and, the free streets

05:45.045 --> 05:46.745
or, you know, the neighborhood.

05:47.485 --> 05:50.585
And, there is, I mean, I, I see that, you know,

05:50.585 --> 05:54.145
there is a, there is a critique to this kind of work

05:54.165 --> 05:56.785
as well, because, you know, it, it, there is this thing

05:56.785 --> 05:58.565
Of how do you generalize, right?

05:58.665 --> 06:01.685
Can you say something general about the castral culture

06:01.745 --> 06:04.325
of India based on this one or two narratives?

06:04.745 --> 06:08.205
And I think that sometimes not wanting to generalize,

06:08.265 --> 06:10.685
and here one is really trying to sort of express

06:11.105 --> 06:14.565
and present a context of castral, of caster reality.

06:15.145 --> 06:18.165
Uh, so not, I would see this as a sign of not wanting

06:18.185 --> 06:20.845
to generalize and not wanting to generalize as a sign

06:20.845 --> 06:22.085
of methodological humility.

06:22.135 --> 06:25.965
There is this much that your narrative can, do.

06:26.505 --> 06:29.205
Um, it's also about, you know,

06:29.205 --> 06:30.925
interpreting contextual data.

06:32.145 --> 06:35.365
And so I, you know, I urge that some of these narratives

06:35.365 --> 06:38.205
and ethnographic venet be seen in that kind of light

06:38.825 --> 06:40.405
and uncovering the voices

06:40.475 --> 06:42.125
that are generally not going to be heard.

06:42.145 --> 06:44.605
So when we think of the prison, you know, you would,

06:44.605 --> 06:46.085
this is not something, these are voices

06:46.155 --> 06:49.205
that you may not necessarily, want to, hear.

06:49.745 --> 06:53.565
Um, and the third is that, you know, I find

06:53.565 --> 06:56.365
that sometimes generalizability is also kind

06:56.365 --> 07:00.885
of an overrated, criteria, for, for,

07:00.885 --> 07:02.725
understanding and evaluating research.

07:02.865 --> 07:05.085
So given that background, what I'm trying to do,

07:05.345 --> 07:07.605
if I look at, you know, that particular essay

07:07.605 --> 07:09.045
that we are talking about of Castran

07:09.045 --> 07:12.725
and tap entrapment, a later book, which is edited,

07:12.725 --> 07:15.045
which is co-edited actually with a colleague Rimple,

07:15.065 --> 07:16.245
who also works on prison.

07:16.865 --> 07:20.165
Um, in, in both these, I think what we are trying

07:20.165 --> 07:22.125
to do is trying to look at narratives and,

07:22.305 --> 07:24.205
and see, you know, if I think

07:24.205 --> 07:27.005
of criminal careers in the case of this narrative

07:27.005 --> 07:30.885
of the local, goon in a neighborhood in West Bengal,

07:31.385 --> 07:34.765
or if I look at narratives of, women prisoners,

07:36.245 --> 07:40.265
you know, both of these are actually, you know,

07:40.455 --> 07:44.585
provide a sort of fertile ground for, analysis

07:44.725 --> 07:48.545
of these continuities between, institutional spaces

07:48.765 --> 07:50.705
of confinement and, the prisons.

07:50.705 --> 07:52.905
And let me just give an example of how,

07:53.165 --> 07:55.025
so if I look at women prisoners lives,

07:55.485 --> 07:57.985
and, the particular essay that I wrote in,

07:58.005 --> 08:00.505
in this edited book on women, prisoners,

08:00.505 --> 08:04.105
it's called Women Incarcerated Narratives from India,

08:05.005 --> 08:09.155
which is actually a translated essay on a drawing from

08:09.715 --> 08:11.995
a book, which was written by a political prisoner.

08:11.995 --> 08:15.275
So there is this political prisoner from the seventies,

08:15.695 --> 08:18.515
who, is imprisoned in the context

08:18.615 --> 08:21.395
of her role in the nite movement in Bengal.

08:21.815 --> 08:25.195
And she writes about the ordinary prisoners.

08:25.535 --> 08:28.115
So I had actually translated one,

08:28.175 --> 08:31.355
and analyzed one such narrative of an ordinary prisoner,

08:31.675 --> 08:36.115
a young woman who, who came from Bangladesh,

08:36.135 --> 08:39.355
to visit her aunt and ended up in a broth head.

08:40.245 --> 08:41.905
And her narrative is fascinating

08:41.905 --> 08:46.105
because it shows for her discontinuity between the border,

08:46.285 --> 08:50.945
the brothel, the hospital, the prison as all sort of,

08:50.965 --> 08:54.745
you know, her experiences are very similar experiences of

08:55.045 --> 08:56.845
Violence, of the lack of agency

08:57.225 --> 09:00.205
and of the struggle to actually come to come, come,

09:00.225 --> 09:01.565
you know, take her own decisions.

09:01.855 --> 09:03.685
Those, those experiences are similar

09:03.865 --> 09:05.165
across these different sites.

09:05.385 --> 09:07.405
So I think women's narratives,

09:07.665 --> 09:11.245
are very powerful in showing the working of,

09:11.245 --> 09:14.125
patriarchal domination of caste linkages

09:14.125 --> 09:17.365
and patriarchal domination in state run institutions

09:17.365 --> 09:19.165
of confinement as well as in others.

09:19.425 --> 09:22.125
So there is a kind of continuity between the family

09:22.705 --> 09:25.285
and the prison, which women, prisoners narratives,

09:25.345 --> 09:28.325
who actually end up in prison, you know, they're able to,

09:28.625 --> 09:30.645
offer or they're able to show us these,

09:30.945 --> 09:32.085
continuities.

09:32.625 --> 09:36.765
So, so I think if one looks at these, I mean, you know,

09:37.065 --> 09:40.845
the narratives of, let's say career criminals,

09:41.105 --> 09:44.365
so the study of criminal, criminal careers,

09:44.365 --> 09:47.285
which will show these connections between, life

09:47.305 --> 09:50.205
inside prisons and outside, which is what,

09:50.475 --> 09:53.325
this narrative of the local, goon does.

09:53.545 --> 09:55.845
But what is interesting is that it's, you know,

09:55.845 --> 09:59.685
the narrative is, it, it's not simply the narrative

09:59.685 --> 10:01.125
of a strong man, because you,

10:01.235 --> 10:03.725
what it reveals is also the vulnerabilities

10:04.305 --> 10:07.645
of this person who's otherwise a strong man,

10:07.945 --> 10:10.085
and, you know, has some kind

10:10.085 --> 10:11.165
of power in the neighborhood.

10:11.305 --> 10:15.645
But, it, it, it reveals this kind of fragility of the,

10:15.825 --> 10:17.725
per of this powerful person.

10:17.785 --> 10:20.645
So if one, one, if one looks at that narrative,

10:20.865 --> 10:23.565
you know, this guy, he, this man, he surrenders

10:23.565 --> 10:24.645
to the police at one point

10:24.915 --> 10:27.765
because he sees surrendering to the police as a way

10:27.925 --> 10:29.125
of protecting one's life.

10:29.825 --> 10:33.045
Um, and, and then finally, if one looks at his death,

10:33.385 --> 10:36.845
his death is actually, caused, in a sense.

10:36.845 --> 10:39.445
And this is only what is reported in a sense by those,

10:39.505 --> 10:41.005
the people who are closest to him.

10:41.105 --> 10:45.445
So again, you know, it's this kind of tension,

10:45.445 --> 10:47.845
that is revealed, through this narrative.

10:47.845 --> 10:51.045
And that's the kind of tension that I was trying to,

10:51.185 --> 10:52.885
trying to, bring out.

10:53.325 --> 10:55.325
I think there isn't, I mean, there is,

10:55.325 --> 10:57.725
some literature which looks at the idea of,

10:57.865 --> 10:58.925
disposability.

10:59.025 --> 11:01.205
But when I look at it, in the context

11:01.425 --> 11:03.405
of my own work in the prison,

11:03.825 --> 11:07.725
and trying to understand, well, who then is the disposable?

11:08.265 --> 11:10.645
Um, and I say that there are multiple meanings,

11:10.645 --> 11:11.965
but there are multiple meanings

11:11.965 --> 11:14.325
because I think there isn't a kind of,

11:14.425 --> 11:15.925
it's not fixed.

11:16.035 --> 11:18.205
It's not a stable fixed category.

11:18.385 --> 11:21.165
So the techniques for classifying, identifying

11:21.165 --> 11:25.565
and categorizing who the disposable citizen is, and,

11:25.565 --> 11:28.005
and what the criteria should be, are neither stable,

11:28.145 --> 11:29.405
nor are they very organized.

11:29.865 --> 11:33.565
And this suits the state, to do so

11:33.565 --> 11:35.485
because, you know, the state can then,

11:35.545 --> 11:38.165
at different points come up with different explanations and,

11:38.225 --> 11:40.525
and identifications for who is disposable.

11:41.265 --> 11:45.645
Um, so it, so it, it is, it is fluid,

11:45.745 --> 11:47.605
it is susceptible to interpretation

11:47.785 --> 11:50.165
and, subject to, change.

11:50.185 --> 11:52.765
So if one looks at the, current

11:52.915 --> 11:56.405
Citizenship act in India, I think some of the discussions

11:56.405 --> 12:00.685
around that, shows this kind of,

12:01.375 --> 12:04.865
what should I call it, this kind of, instability in,

12:04.885 --> 12:09.225
and, and, you know, the second thing, I think that,

12:09.805 --> 12:12.465
that in order to understand disposability,

12:12.745 --> 12:16.305
I think it's important to, think about what is trying,

12:16.415 --> 12:18.225
what is it that is being erased.

12:18.325 --> 12:20.545
So I think the concept of disposability

12:20.645 --> 12:23.665
and erasure are, are linked.

12:24.045 --> 12:26.225
Uh, and you'll see that in the prison that what you,

12:26.225 --> 12:27.465
what is happening is, you know,

12:27.465 --> 12:30.025
through the prison erasure is a certain kind

12:30.025 --> 12:33.985
of erasure is being accomplished through confinement,

12:33.985 --> 12:37.025
through the imposition of barriers, to the per

12:37.025 --> 12:38.865
through the performance of ordinary lives.

12:38.925 --> 12:40.585
So that's what happens when you are confined.

12:40.645 --> 12:42.745
You can't perform your ordinary life.

12:43.245 --> 12:46.185
Um, but it's also accomplished through certain kinds

12:46.185 --> 12:47.905
of dehumanizing behaviors.

12:48.085 --> 12:51.345
Now, when you look at those dehumanizing behaviors, they're,

12:51.345 --> 12:53.185
again, not just confined to the prison.

12:53.385 --> 12:55.585
I mean, if one looks at police violence on the streets,

12:55.895 --> 12:57.585
that is equally dehumanizing as

12:57.585 --> 12:59.305
what happens, in the prison.

12:59.485 --> 13:03.625
So there is a kind of, marking out of,

13:03.625 --> 13:06.865
the disposable life through these processes.

13:07.125 --> 13:09.305
You know, one part of it happens within the prison,

13:09.645 --> 13:12.825
and there is a large part that also happens, outside.

13:13.565 --> 13:17.625
Um, so the disposability then could, if I link it

13:17.625 --> 13:21.065
to this idea of raise, then I know that it could mean,

13:21.135 --> 13:24.785
this state of, a condition of abandonment,

13:24.965 --> 13:26.665
by state and society, right?

13:26.765 --> 13:29.945
So it could, it could also refer to exploitation

13:30.005 --> 13:32.665
of certain kinds of bodies, you know, of if,

13:32.725 --> 13:34.065
if one looks at labor

13:34.605 --> 13:37.305
and conditions of labor currently in many, like,

13:37.305 --> 13:38.945
if you talk about sweatshops, I mean,

13:38.945 --> 13:41.625
and you don't have to go that far to talk abouts sweatshops.

13:41.625 --> 13:46.345
If one just looks at, you know,

13:46.925 --> 13:49.545
for instance the delivery workers and the kind of hours

13:49.645 --> 13:51.225
and context of work,

13:51.345 --> 13:53.025
I think one can, one can see that.

13:53.325 --> 13:56.505
So the use of bodies to only serve the interests of profit

13:56.565 --> 13:59.585
and monetary gain until the body is no longer able

13:59.585 --> 14:00.665
to serve, right?

14:01.245 --> 14:02.465
And, so

14:02.465 --> 14:05.785
after which it is then again, subject to this kind of era,

14:06.165 --> 14:08.105
it is left abandoned to wither away.

14:08.605 --> 14:13.425
It also means that, there is a kind of, I mean, in,

14:13.485 --> 14:15.865
I think in neoliberal governance,

14:16.385 --> 14:20.745
I think the state is also heavily invested in identifying

14:21.285 --> 14:24.105
who the weak, errant, marginal citizen is,

14:24.645 --> 14:27.545
and bringing them in within the folds of governance.

14:27.685 --> 14:31.665
And often this is done through making them as beneficiaries

14:31.685 --> 14:34.065
of certain schemes, and so on.

14:34.485 --> 14:38.665
And, so, so what, what, what does, what does this do?

14:38.665 --> 14:40.785
It brings them within the fold of governance.

14:41.325 --> 14:44.825
It, you know, the state, attempts to help them,

14:44.885 --> 14:48.025
but at the same time, they're always on the brink of Raisa.

14:48.245 --> 14:51.205
So it's actually not, you know, a not a,

14:51.545 --> 14:55.045
not a real assistance in that, in that, sense.

14:55.545 --> 15:00.325
So, yeah, so I think that, now in addition

15:00.345 --> 15:04.285
to this, I think there are, what we call the vigilantes

15:04.905 --> 15:07.485
who also perform the work of, again,

15:08.205 --> 15:11.645
identifying the disposable, disposable of, you know,

15:11.965 --> 15:15.605
ensuring this kind of surveillance when the state agencies

15:15.625 --> 15:18.365
are not actually, doing this kind of surveillance.

15:18.705 --> 15:20.845
So this is what I mean by, you know,

15:20.845 --> 15:22.725
the multiple meanings of disposability.

15:23.145 --> 15:25.365
But at the same time, when you think

15:25.705 --> 15:28.765
of disposable populations, I mean, if I'm think of the us,

15:29.265 --> 15:32.405
when one thinks of, you know, India, I think,

15:32.585 --> 15:36.405
we know in a sense what those disposable, contexts

15:36.405 --> 15:38.685
and populations are.

15:39.185 --> 15:43.605
So, so, again, I don't think that they're necessarily,

15:44.025 --> 15:48.125
they, they're necessarily planned

15:48.345 --> 15:51.525
or they're necessarily organized as vigilantes.

15:51.985 --> 15:54.965
Uh, and there is, I mean, there is, I I would say that,

15:55.025 --> 15:59.685
you know, there can be some discussion on this as

15:59.685 --> 16:02.925
to whether, you know, there exists a sort of band

16:02.925 --> 16:04.245
of vigilantes, you know,

16:04.245 --> 16:06.085
whether there necessarily like hired

16:06.335 --> 16:07.645
goons, and I don't think they are.

16:08.105 --> 16:12.565
Um, I think that, there are ordinary people like you

16:12.565 --> 16:16.685
and me who then choose to highlight, certain kinds

16:16.685 --> 16:18.525
of norms which become very important,

16:19.105 --> 16:22.765
and, which are then sort of, played out,

16:22.905 --> 16:25.485
on the street often through, violence.

16:25.625 --> 16:28.365
You know, I remember several years ago, you know,

16:28.365 --> 16:31.045
when I was doing field work in this urban neighborhood, one

16:31.045 --> 16:33.405
of my young women in interlocutors,

16:33.405 --> 16:36.245
and this was, you know, the field work was in,

16:36.305 --> 16:38.495
in two thousands.

16:38.495 --> 16:40.775
And she was talking about her time as a student,

16:41.395 --> 16:42.615
and so it was, you know,

16:42.615 --> 16:45.375
maybe late nineties or mid nineties.

16:45.595 --> 16:47.735
And she said that, you know, in this,

16:47.735 --> 16:50.975
Muslim working class neighborhood, when she went

16:51.115 --> 16:55.335
to school and she had worn her the pata in a particular way,

16:55.755 --> 17:00.135
she was actually beaten on the street by one of the,

17:00.195 --> 17:01.775
men from her neighborhood.

17:02.395 --> 17:05.335
And, so, so this is, you know, again, what, what

17:05.485 --> 17:08.215
what you're trying to do here is that you're trying to

17:08.845 --> 17:13.175
instate a certain kind of, a certain kind of sociality,

17:13.415 --> 17:14.495
a certain kind of behavior

17:14.995 --> 17:17.055
and failing, which there will be violence.

17:17.195 --> 17:19.255
And I think that, again,

17:19.255 --> 17:22.295
and I think that is connected to how one sees the castral,

17:22.555 --> 17:25.255
because here again, you don't need the prison to,

17:25.395 --> 17:27.295
to control, to dehumanize,

17:27.395 --> 17:31.975
and it can be done, very well on the street,

17:32.235 --> 17:36.175
by just, maybe somebody, you know, as a neighbor,

17:36.175 --> 17:37.175
and so on and so forth.

17:37.315 --> 17:40.535
So, I think, I mean, theoretically, I would say yes,

17:40.555 --> 17:44.655
it is possible, but if one looks at, current conditions,

17:45.235 --> 17:46.375
both in,

17:46.435 --> 17:50.805
and I'm saying this in terms of, you know, both in terms

17:50.805 --> 17:52.725
of research and activism,

17:52.745 --> 17:54.765
if one looks at current conditions,

17:54.965 --> 17:58.365
I don't think they are suitable to develop,

17:58.465 --> 18:00.765
to think about a decolonial perspectives.

18:01.225 --> 18:02.965
Um, so especially with regards,

18:02.965 --> 18:04.365
and I'm talking really in, in terms

18:04.365 --> 18:07.325
of criminal justice institutions, the prison,

18:07.445 --> 18:10.685
criminology as a discipline, you know, you know

18:10.685 --> 18:12.445
that there's, there's very little support

18:12.585 --> 18:14.925
for research in these state controlled institutions.

18:15.505 --> 18:19.845
Um, a huge sum of money has to be paid as security in order

18:19.845 --> 18:22.525
to get access to the prison, which very, you know, which,

18:22.705 --> 18:25.165
and I mean, not that that guarantees access.

18:26.065 --> 18:28.885
Um, so there, there, you know, these sites

18:28.885 --> 18:31.245
of confinement are inaccessible.

18:31.705 --> 18:34.485
We know very little of what goes on inside these sites.

18:35.065 --> 18:38.565
Um, there's not enough funding for research in these areas.

18:39.225 --> 18:42.645
Um, you know, much of the funding is dev is, driven

18:42.745 --> 18:46.005
by science, by the natural, you know,

18:46.285 --> 18:50.525
questions in the natural sciences, critiques

18:50.525 --> 18:52.965
and activist orientations in with regard

18:52.965 --> 18:57.045
to these issues are often perceived as dissenting views.

18:57.705 --> 19:00.565
And these dissenting views are quickly criminalized.

19:00.745 --> 19:05.405
So there is always that fear of, you know, being labeled

19:05.625 --> 19:06.645
as a dissenter.

19:07.225 --> 19:08.725
Um, and finally,

19:08.965 --> 19:11.285
I think the academic space in the global south,

19:12.145 --> 19:13.545
I don't think has come onto its own.

19:13.685 --> 19:15.465
It is still, it continues

19:15.465 --> 19:17.625
to follow the evaluative standards of the West.

19:18.205 --> 19:19.945
And, you know, we write

19:20.045 --> 19:21.905
and speak in the languages of the west,

19:22.125 --> 19:23.265
so that is also a problem.

19:23.845 --> 19:26.145
So, and in addition, the model

19:26.145 --> 19:28.105
of the natural sciences continue to define

19:28.125 --> 19:30.065
how research is done in,

19:30.065 --> 19:31.745
the social sciences and humanities.

19:32.085 --> 19:35.705
So I think in the Indian context, I think, you know,

19:35.765 --> 19:38.065
as far as, looking at prisons

19:38.125 --> 19:39.945
and understanding criminal justice systems

19:40.205 --> 19:41.785
and criminology,

19:42.045 --> 19:45.025
and the other disciplines, which sort of like anthropology,

19:45.175 --> 19:48.185
sociology, which, which look at these issues,

19:48.345 --> 19:49.705
I think we are very, very far away

19:49.705 --> 19:50.905
from a decolonial perspective.

19:51.125 --> 19:55.065
But if it does have to emerge, I think that it'll have

19:55.065 --> 19:57.505
to recognize this kind of continuity.

19:57.925 --> 20:00.865
And so we cannot talk of the Bri prison without talking

20:00.865 --> 20:03.145
of the border, you know, so, you know,

20:03.245 --> 20:04.985
and so if one, if one,

20:05.005 --> 20:06.945
or we cannot talk of the prison without talking

20:06.945 --> 20:08.145
about the patriarchal family.

20:08.765 --> 20:11.665
So there is a need to then think about all

20:11.665 --> 20:13.465
of these institutional spaces together.

20:14.065 --> 20:14.185
I.

Exploring Narrative Inversion in Indian Prisons

00:00:00 - Thank you, Sam. it's a pleasure to do this and talk about my work with you. Yeah. So I think, the idea for, writing on culture, castral cultures in contemporary India actually comes from my doctoral, field work, which was in, in a prison in, west Ngal in, India. And, in that, I found that many young male prisoners were actually doing this narrative inversion. And by narrative inversion, I really mean that they were, inverting the way they saw the prison
00:00:34 - and what they would do is that, they would think of the neighborhood as a space of these insurmountable constraints. And in contrast, the prison would appear as a space that, actually offered space to, to take decisions, to do what they wanted to, to explore and so on. So I think that, the prison became a space of possibility, became a space with, of possibility with the potential for, agency, resistance
00:01:06 - how one thinks of the prison. Right. And of course, this narrative inversion is narrative. So it is looking at the neighborhood from the context of the, from the vantage point of the prison. but it is this that I wanted to actually explore further. And that was the beginning of some of the, sort of thinking around, caer reality and what I would call the casal mesh. because, and then, you know, in order to do this, what I did next was to try and find people, in, an underprivileged neighborhood
00:01:42 - who would be able to give an understanding and people who actually traverse both the prison and the neighborhood. now this was difficult to do, and, the paper that we are talking about today, you know, has just one narrative of, of such a person. But what I'm trying to do is to indicate that actually if you one looks at criminal careers, and especially in, if I think of it in, in the context of Bengal and in the context of the kind of context,
00:02:15 - I think one can, you know, one can make this argument of the Castel mesh in certain kinds of lives, and that is what, the paper was actually trying to do. But tied to that is also a methodological question of then where does one study the prison? And where does one study, criminal lives? And it's not just the prison, you know, you could study, prison and prison-like circumstances and environments outside
00:02:44 - or outside of these sites of confinement. So, you know, all these, there's a sim, there's a similarity and an overlap of understanding in these three terms, whether you one talks of ca castral turn, castral condition, castral mesh, or Castral age, They're signifying two or three things. First is, the idea of hyper incarceration. And, you know, there's a lot of literature which addresses this mass imprisonment. The, the, basically the rise of incarceration of, and here the rise is of certain groups of population, right?

Caste and Incarceration in Contemporary India

00:03:18 - So we know it's, you know, if one, if one thinks of it in the Indian context, we, we know that there are caste, tribe and other marginal identities, which tend to be overrepresented in the prison population. So, so the rise of incarceration of certain groups of population in most countries across the world, so incarceration then becomes to be, comes to be seen as, the kind of the valid response o of the state in order
00:03:54 - to segregate them from the rest of the population. The second is this presence of ality, or carceral conditions beyond the typical and obvious carceral institution. So one does not need to look at sites of confinement. So if I think of, you know, a, a a site of protest and how that is, sought to be controlled or how protests, you know, so then you have, you know,
00:04:23 - to the farmers pro protest, the state has been putting up, you know, dividers has been putting up barricades in order to not allow people to enter certain spaces. So there is a kind of blocking off or a kind of isolation that happens similar to what, what would happen in, in a prison. So the presence of ality, in spaces which are not carceral. And I think third, with, with, along with this hyper incarceration, you have hyper surveillance and, you know, so you have hyper surveillance
00:04:57 - control, discipline, your population, and also identify that dissenting voice, which needs to then be marked as disposable. And, and isolated from the, so this is, I think this is what we, what I understand by, the increase in ality or the castral term in Castral age. I think, you know, in all my work, I've, I've, I'm now I've now been trying to look at how one can,
00:05:30 - or the qualitative data, narratives in order to make some of these, connections between, sort of institutional spaces of confinement and, the free streets or, you know, the neighborhood. And, there is, I mean, I, I see that, you know, there is a, there is a critique to this kind of work as well, because, you know, it, it, there is this thing Of how do you generalize, right?
00:06:01 - of India based on this one or two narratives? And I think that sometimes not wanting to generalize, and here one is really trying to sort of express and present a context of castral, of caster reality. so not, I would see this as a sign of not wanting to generalize and not wanting to generalize as a sign of methodological humility. There is this much that your narrative can, do. it's also about, you know,

Unheard Voices: Narratives from Prisons and Society

00:06:32 - And so I, you know, I urge that some of these narratives and ethnographic venet be seen in that kind of light and uncovering the voices that are generally not going to be heard. So when we think of the prison, you know, you would, this is not something, these are voices that you may not necessarily, want to, hear. and the third is that, you know, I find that sometimes generalizability is also kind of an overrated, criteria, for, for,
00:07:02 - So given that background, what I'm trying to do, if I look at, you know, that particular essay that we are talking about of Castran and tap entrapment, a later book, which is edited, which is co-edited actually with a colleague Rimple, who also works on prison. in, in both these, I think what we are trying to do is trying to look at narratives and, and see, you know, if I think of criminal careers in the case of this narrative of the local, goon in a neighborhood in West Bengal,
00:07:36 - you know, both of these are actually, you know, provide a sort of fertile ground for, analysis of these continuities between, institutional spaces of confinement and, the prisons. And let me just give an example of how, so if I look at women prisoners lives, and, the particular essay that I wrote in, in this edited book on women, prisoners, it's called Women Incarcerated Narratives from India,
00:08:09 - a book, which was written by a political prisoner. So there is this political prisoner from the seventies, who, is imprisoned in the context of her role in the nite movement in Bengal. And she writes about the ordinary prisoners. So I had actually translated one, and analyzed one such narrative of an ordinary prisoner, a young woman who, who came from Bangladesh,
00:08:40 - And her narrative is fascinating because it shows for her discontinuity between the border, the brothel, the hospital, the prison as all sort of, you know, her experiences are very similar experiences of Violence, of the lack of agency and of the struggle to actually come to come, come, you know, take her own decisions. Those, those experiences are similar across these different sites. So I think women's narratives,
00:09:11 - patriarchal domination of caste linkages and patriarchal domination in state run institutions of confinement as well as in others. So there is a kind of continuity between the family and the prison, which women, prisoners narratives, who actually end up in prison, you know, they're able to, offer or they're able to show us these, continuities. So, so I think if one looks at these, I mean, you know, the narratives of, let's say career criminals,

Exploring Vulnerability and Disposability in Prisons

00:09:44 - which will show these connections between, life inside prisons and outside, which is what, this narrative of the local, goon does. But what is interesting is that it's, you know, the narrative is, it, it's not simply the narrative of a strong man, because you, what it reveals is also the vulnerabilities of this person who's otherwise a strong man, and, you know, has some kind of power in the neighborhood.
00:10:15 - per of this powerful person. So if one, one, if one looks at that narrative, you know, this guy, he, this man, he surrenders to the police at one point because he sees surrendering to the police as a way of protecting one's life. and, and then finally, if one looks at his death, his death is actually, caused, in a sense. And this is only what is reported in a sense by those, the people who are closest to him. So again, you know, it's this kind of tension,
00:10:47 - And that's the kind of tension that I was trying to, trying to, bring out. I think there isn't, I mean, there is, some literature which looks at the idea of, disposability. But when I look at it, in the context of my own work in the prison, and trying to understand, well, who then is the disposable? and I say that there are multiple meanings, but there are multiple meanings because I think there isn't a kind of, it's not fixed.
00:11:18 - So the techniques for classifying, identifying and categorizing who the disposable citizen is, and, and what the criteria should be, are neither stable, nor are they very organized. And this suits the state, to do so because, you know, the state can then, at different points come up with different explanations and, and identifications for who is disposable. so it, so it, it is, it is fluid, it is susceptible to interpretation
00:11:50 - So if one looks at the, current Citizenship act in India, I think some of the discussions around that, shows this kind of, what should I call it, this kind of, instability in, and, and, you know, the second thing, I think that, that in order to understand disposability, I think it's important to, think about what is trying, what is it that is being erased.
00:12:20 - and erasure are, are linked. and you'll see that in the prison that what you, what is happening is, you know, through the prison erasure is a certain kind of erasure is being accomplished through confinement, through the imposition of barriers, to the per through the performance of ordinary lives. So that's what happens when you are confined. You can't perform your ordinary life. but it's also accomplished through certain kinds of dehumanizing behaviors. Now, when you look at those dehumanizing behaviors, they're,

Disposability and Dehumanization in Society

00:12:53 - I mean, if one looks at police violence on the streets, that is equally dehumanizing as what happens, in the prison. So there is a kind of, marking out of, the disposable life through these processes. You know, one part of it happens within the prison, and there is a large part that also happens, outside. so the disposability then could, if I link it to this idea of raise, then I know that it could mean, this state of, a condition of abandonment,
00:13:26 - So it could, it could also refer to exploitation of certain kinds of bodies, you know, of if, if one looks at labor and conditions of labor currently in many, like, if you talk about sweatshops, I mean, and you don't have to go that far to talk abouts sweatshops. If one just looks at, you know, for instance the delivery workers and the kind of hours and context of work, I think one can, one can see that. So the use of bodies to only serve the interests of profit
00:13:59 - to serve, right? And, so after which it is then again, subject to this kind of era, it is left abandoned to wither away. It also means that, there is a kind of, I mean, in, I think in neoliberal governance, I think the state is also heavily invested in identifying who the weak, errant, marginal citizen is, and bringing them in within the folds of governance.
00:14:31 - of certain schemes, and so on. And, so, so what, what, what does, what does this do? It brings them within the fold of governance. It, you know, the state, attempts to help them, but at the same time, they're always on the brink of Raisa. So it's actually not, you know, a not a, not a real assistance in that, in that, sense. So, yeah, so I think that, now in addition
00:15:04 - who also perform the work of, again, identifying the disposable, disposable of, you know, ensuring this kind of surveillance when the state agencies are not actually, doing this kind of surveillance. So this is what I mean by, you know, the multiple meanings of disposability. But at the same time, when you think of disposable populations, I mean, if I'm think of the us, when one thinks of, you know, India, I think,
00:15:36 - and populations are. So, so, again, I don't think that they're necessarily, they, they're necessarily planned or they're necessarily organized as vigilantes. and there is, I mean, there is, I I would say that, you know, there can be some discussion on this as to whether, you know, there exists a sort of band

Ordinary Violence and Social Norms in Communities

00:16:04 - whether there necessarily like hired goons, and I don't think they are. I think that, there are ordinary people like you and me who then choose to highlight, certain kinds of norms which become very important, and, which are then sort of, played out, on the street often through, violence. You know, I remember several years ago, you know, when I was doing field work in this urban neighborhood, one of my young women in interlocutors,
00:16:36 - in two thousands. And she was talking about her time as a student, and so it was, you know, maybe late nineties or mid nineties. And she said that, you know, in this, Muslim working class neighborhood, when she went to school and she had worn her the pata in a particular way, she was actually beaten on the street by one of the, men from her neighborhood. And, so, so this is, you know, again, what, what
00:17:08 - instate a certain kind of, a certain kind of sociality, a certain kind of behavior and failing, which there will be violence. And I think that, again, and I think that is connected to how one sees the castral, because here again, you don't need the prison to, to control, to dehumanize, and it can be done, very well on the street, by just, maybe somebody, you know, as a neighbor,
00:17:37 - So, I think, I mean, theoretically, I would say yes, it is possible, but if one looks at, current conditions, both in, and I'm saying this in terms of, you know, both in terms of research and activism, if one looks at current conditions, I don't think they are suitable to develop, to think about a decolonial perspectives. so especially with regards, and I'm talking really in, in terms of criminal justice institutions, the prison,
00:18:10 - that there's, there's very little support for research in these state controlled institutions. a huge sum of money has to be paid as security in order to get access to the prison, which very, you know, which, and I mean, not that that guarantees access. so there, there, you know, these sites of confinement are inaccessible. We know very little of what goes on inside these sites. there's not enough funding for research in these areas.
00:18:42 - by science, by the natural, you know, questions in the natural sciences, critiques and activist orientations in with regard to these issues are often perceived as dissenting views. And these dissenting views are quickly criminalized. So there is always that fear of, you know, being labeled as a dissenter. and finally, I think the academic space in the global south,

Decolonizing Perspectives on Criminal Justice Research

00:19:13 - It is still, it continues to follow the evaluative standards of the West. And, you know, we write and speak in the languages of the west, so that is also a problem. So, and in addition, the model of the natural sciences continue to define how research is done in, the social sciences and humanities. So I think in the Indian context, I think, you know, as far as, looking at prisons and understanding criminal justice systems and criminology, and the other disciplines, which sort of like anthropology,
00:20:14 - I think we are very, very far away from a decolonial perspective. But if it does have to emerge, I think that it'll have to recognize this kind of continuity. And so we cannot talk of the Bri prison without talking of the border, you know, so, you know, and so if one, if one, or we cannot talk of the prison without talking about the patriarchal family. So there is a need to then think about all of these institutional spaces together. I.

Faculti AI can make mistakes

Research

Policy

Analysis

Data

Originals

Explainers

Podcasts