Crucibles of Power: Smolensk under Stalinist and Nazi Rule

Key Question Being Explored in This Insight:

What can the experiences of Smolensk residents during the transitions between Stalinist rule, Nazi occupation, and Soviet reoccupation teach us about life and choices under two opposing totalitarian regimes?

View the page of: Michael David-Fox

Institution: Georgetown University

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This video discusses the significance of the Mki region, now part of Russia, in historical studies of the Soviet Union, particularly regarding the archives related to Communist Party documents seized after World War II. It highlights the uniqueness of these archives as the only authentic collection available in the West during the Cold War, which laid foundational work for Soviet studies, notably by Merle Faden.

The author, who is preparing a book titled "Crucibles of Power," emphasizes their focus on the 99% of documents that remained in the Soviet Union after the war, contrasting their work with prior studies that mainly utilized the Mki Archive. They aim to analyze the lived experiences of ordinary people under both Stalinist and Nazi regimes during the German occupation of Mki, examining themes of totalitarianism, collaboration, and agency.

This video also explores how the Holocaust happened on Mki soil and acknowledges how the regime changes brought about a power vacuum that affected people's options during this tumultuous period. The author introduces the concept of "biographical logics" to illustrate how individual choices reflect larger historical forces and how people navigated the complex political realities of their time.

This video concludes by presenting three case studies of individuals from the region who represent various paths during the war—showing how personal backgrounds and choices intersected with broader socio-political dynamics. The author advocates for a nuanced understanding of power, emphasizing ideological, social, and local contexts alongside traditional narratives of coercion and repression, aiming to capture the intricacies of human behavior and decision-making during this significant historical period.

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Here are five key points extracted from the video:

1. **Unique Archival Significance**: The region of Mk, now part of the Russian Federation, is significant for U.S. and Western studies of Soviet history because it was the source of the only authentic collection of Communist Party documents available in the West during the Cold War, acquired after World War II. This cache essential insights into Soviet power dynamics and governance.

2. **Research Focus on Lived Experiences**: The author emphasizes the importance of understanding the lived experiences of individuals who encountered the regime changes during World War II. This includes how ordinary people navigated their choices and decisions amid the chaotic conditions brought about by the German occupation and the collapse of Stalinist control.

3. **Multidimensional Understanding of Power**: The author advocates for a nuanced approach to understanding power during totalitarian regimes, moving beyond traditional definitions of coercion and repression to include aspects like ideology, propaganda, and local governance. This perspective highlights the complexities and weaknesses of both Stalinist and Nazi systems, especially during transitional periods.

4. **Biographical Logics in Historical Convideo

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Here are some key quotes that encapsulate the main themes and arguments from the video you :

1. **On the significance of the MK region:**
- “.Mk, which is a region now in the Russian Federation, holds a very special, I would say, unique place in American or US and Western Russian, Soviet studies.”

2. **On the archival materials:**
- “These were the only authentic body of Communist party archival documents available in the West during the entire Cold War.”

3. **On Soviet Studies and the historian's role:**
- “Working on MK was kind of like doing an archaeology of the entire field of Soviet studies because each generation had worked on that archival material somewhat differently.”

4. **On totalitarianism and comparisons:**
- “I was always interested in debates about totalitarianism, about comparing Nazi Germany and the Stalinist Soviet Union. ... comparisons ... led to certain oversimplifications.”

5. **On the impact of regime changes:**
- “There’s not even the aspiration of total control. There’s a power vacuum ... a great deal more room for maneuver and agency among people facing those power changes.”

6. **On the meaning of power:**
- “In one common definition, power is getting people to do things they don’t want to do ... But ... there are other dimensions to force and violence, to how we understand power...”

7. **On biographical logics:**
- “Biographical logics is a term that I’ve coined ... it denotes the patterns about life trajectories under these two dictatorships.”

8. **On decision-making in regimes:**
- “How do we understand how they made those choices? ... Past choices bias future decisions.”

9. **On collaboration during the German occupation:**
- “...there were a huge number of Russians in MK who became collaborators. Without them, the German occupation could not have worked.”

10. **On the investigations into lived experiences:**
- “For me, the most interesting question is how do we understand what power is? ... the power of ideas and ideology.”

11. **On the want for survival:**
- “And above all a quest for survival for calories ... to map out the kinds of choices that people made.”

12. **On the intersection of regimes:**
- “Both regimes, Nazism and Stalinism, were interacting. They were watching one another, sometimes learning from another.”

13. **On revolutionary dynamics:**
- “...when you understand them as revolutionary revolutions, they meet, they interact ... phases of their revolutions.”

These quotes reflect the complexity of the topics discussed, including the nature of power, individual decision-making in the convideo of oppressive regimes, and the significance of specific historical sources and events in shaping our understanding of Soviet studies and totalitarianism.

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Mk, which is a region now in the Russian Federation,

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about twice the size of Belgium, holds a very special,

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I would say, unique place in, American or US

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and Western Russian, Stu Russian, and Soviet studies.

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Because after the German occupation of

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Mki in World War ii, there was a seizure by the Germans

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of a cache of Communist party documents that became known

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as the Mki Archive.

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And that was seized by the Americans after World War II

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and brought to the United States.

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And these were the only authentic body of Jo

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of Communist party archival documents available in the West

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during the entire Cold War.

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And Merle Fasad, who was a famous Harvard Sovietologists,

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wrote a book that was absolutely foundational for the field

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of Soviet studies called MK under Soviet Rule.

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So my book that's coming out, a called Crucibles

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of Power, has a subtitle that is a kind of homage to

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Merl tha started MK under Stalinist and Nazi Rule.

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And working on MK was kind of like doing an archeology

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of the entire field of, Soviet studies

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because each generation had worked on that

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archival materials somewhat differently.

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But what I wanna say about sources is

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that the materials that were seized after the war

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and brought to the United States were only about 1%

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of the materials that were

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actually remained in the Soviet Union,

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and then in post-Soviet Russia.

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So I was able to, my idea for this was to work on the 99

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for percent of the documents that had not been brought.

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Tom Ys, brought away Fromm Yst

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and to, add the period of the war

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because the Mian archive in the West had petered out

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around the time of Stalin's great terror,

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and did not cover the German occupation of

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that region in World War ii.

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So I'd always been interested in debates about

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totalitarianism, about comparing Nazi Germany

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and the Stalinist Soviet Union.

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It's one of the great intellectual debates

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of the 20th century.

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But I also felt that comparisons, overall comparisons,

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and I can talk about that later, you know, led

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to certain oversimplifications.

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Um, and the other element of what I came to, you know,

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choose motivated this work was that the Holocaust,

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and it was, occurred on

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Smk soil when the Germans invaded.

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And the Holocaust on Soviet territory was a new field

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that was opening up after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

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So I had three fields.

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I stalinism, I had the study of Nazim

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or the German occupation on the eastern front,

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and then the study of the Holocaust

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and three fields converged onk, and I be,

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and the other thing that I would say is that I became very

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interested in lived experience.

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How ordinary people

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or, people who are activists on both sides

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for both regimes, how they experienced these events,

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how they, and how both regimes alternated.

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'cause I'm dealing with two regime changes, right?

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One in 1941 when the Stalin is the Soviet Union collapsed,

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and then the German occupation, and then the Reso.

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So I became more, more interested in

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how people experienced those different regimes.

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And the other thing is about sources is that in the 2010s,

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paradoxically, when the war myth under Putin became very

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official and, you know, politicized,

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but it led to a flood of what we call ego documents, diaries

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and autobiographies.

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So that really changed the nature of my work.

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And for me, because of the regime changes of 41

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and 43, when, you know, a power system collapsed,

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it became a kind of laboratory for studying power relations.

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And one more thing I would add

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is largely an ethnically Russian, region.

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And during, at a time when Russians have launched a new war

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Russian Federation against Ukraine

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and are calling Ukrainians fascists,

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there were a huge number of Russians in MK

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and in the occupied Russian ethnically Russian territories

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who became collaborators.

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And without them, the German

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occupation could not have worked.

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So there are many eerie resonances of

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the period I study and what's happening in, Russia

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and Ukraine, today with this new war.

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For me, the most interesting question is

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how do we understand what power is?

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What is power? In one common definition,

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power is getting people to do things they

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otherwise would not do.

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Uh, but when it comes to Stalinism

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and Nazism, the two dictatorial regimes I'm studying,

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especially in World War ii, there's an overwhelming,

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focus or proclivity to define power as force

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or coercion or military

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or political, repression.

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And, well, I mentioned Merl Fe's famous work on MK that

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inspired this whole field.

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And following Hana, our end fan saw, saw power

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as about increasingly total control.

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But when you have two regime changes in three

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years, that's what I'm talking about.

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In the middle of war, there's not even the aspiration

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of total control.

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There's power vacuum,

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which I talk about when the Germans come in and chaos

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and a great deal of more room for maneuver

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and agency among people who are facing those power changes.

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And so, especially in the Soviet Union,

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during the great terror of the late thirties,

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everyone was very constrained, very afraid,

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and afraid to make choices.

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And there's an old Soviet saying, you know, no,

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initiative goes unpunished.

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Um, but in 1941 with the ach,

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the German army approaching smart yst, even just staying put

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and deciding not to make any kind

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of choice represented a kind of choice.

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So in my book, what I've done is to try to add a number

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of other dimensions to force

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and violence, to how we understand power

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and how historians can treat it.

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There's, for example, the power of ideas and ideology.

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There's the power of propaganda

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and mass mobilization,

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which is very important in the world we live in,

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in creating an alternative reality.

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Um, and both these regimes were mass mobilizing regimes

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that engaged in one

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of the largest propaganda wars in World War II of all time.

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There's also the power of knowledge

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and expertise, which are badly needed, even

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by the German occupation regime, which was conducting

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what had called a war of annihilation in the East.

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And then there's also power on things like gender

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and national ethnic hierarchies, which, you know,

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were important locally,

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but also intersected with the regimes.

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The two regimes ideologies, they were,

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the Germans were not just carrying out a genocide

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of the Jews, but implementing a kind of racial colonization

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with a new racial hierarchy

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that reversed the Soviet national one.

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So Russians, which were at the top of the Soviet system,

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were the lowest now of the SLS and considered unreliable.

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So this multidimensional treatment of power, I think is

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what is new about my work in this area.

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And, you know, I should say that, you know,

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you could be powerful in one area, but weak in another.

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At both regimes, which were incredibly dictatorial

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and interventionists, they both had glaring weaknesses.

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Soviet power, for example,

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remained shockingly thin in the countryside,

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and this was a largely rural area.

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And Germany on the eastern front had to rely on locals

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to administer these vast new territories, which were,

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while their own men were fighting

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largely at the front lines.

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So approximately one third

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of the Western Soviet Union was occupied.

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And so they had to rely on locals

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and collaborate collaborators

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and think about popular opinion to some extent, even

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as they were their own ideology told them

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that Russians were, subhumans and racial inferiors.

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So that was a, ended up being a real weakness

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for the German occupation regime.

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And after a couple of years, locals turned against them

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after all the atrocities.

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Biographical logics is a term that I kind of coined

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and invented for this book

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that I've written a crucibles of power.

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It what I mean by it, I, it sort of denotes the patterns

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that historians can see

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about life trajectories under these two dictatorships.

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So, you know, choice

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and decision making are things

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that are studied across the human and social sciences.

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I mean, studied by neuroscientists,

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by psychologists, by economists.

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What does the historian have to add here?

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Well, studying the past,

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we can see the entire life trajectories of people.

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And, of course,

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all lives have unexpected twists and turns

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and, you know, take, take, unexpected,

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courses, but at the same time, past choices,

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bias, future decisions.

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And the other thing that historians have to offer is

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that we can study the context.

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We know a hundred years ago

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or 50 years ago, we can contextualize the decisions

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that people had to make

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to a much greater extent than when

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we're living through them today.

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So at a, in, when a, when a regime changes,

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when Stalinism is incredibly interventionist regime,

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that in is controlling people's life choices more than

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before, then it disappears suddenly as the, you know,

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the Germans, the Operation Barbarosa in 1941,

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which invaded the, when they invaded the sodium,

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it was in Stalin, was completely unprepared.

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It was a famous, surprise for Stalin.

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And the Germans advanced with extraordinary speed.

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So they invaded in June

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and reached small in August of 1941.

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So everyone faced a choice.

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And how did they, some people burned their communist party

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cards and went over to the Germans, others,

214
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when it joined the partisans

215
00:11:18.595 --> 00:11:21.555
and resisted, how did, how do we understand

216
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how they made those choices?

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Um, I would say that, you know, both

218
00:11:30.425 --> 00:11:35.315
Stalinism and Nazim classified people by the background

219
00:11:35.865 --> 00:11:37.755
that they thought affected,

220
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or determined their orientation.

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So, you know, the Nazis thought in terms of race,

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and the Soviets thought in terms of class,

223
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but increasingly, nationality also was important,

224
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whether you're Russian or Ukrainian, or Georgian.

225
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So victims of Stalinism in,

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before 1941, people had been repressed

227
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and the German eyes had a leg up.

228
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They would be more reliable because they hated Stalinism.

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So in that way too,

230
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biographies influenced the choices that were available.

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So what I've tried to study here is the kind

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of entire range of behavior.

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You had a lot of side switching people looking for,

234
00:12:18.615 --> 00:12:21.285
where the war which was side was gonna win.

235
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You had a lot of accommodation,

236
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but not necessarily to

237
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your own personal reasons, although it was rampant.

238
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But sometimes to protect your networks or your groups

239
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or your communities, you had some opposition.

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You had above all a quest for survival for calories.

241
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And that involved, you know, so I've, I've tried

242
00:12:41.905 --> 00:12:44.905
to map out the kinds of choices that people made.

243
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And, finally here, just to conclude, I'd say

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that there's some evidence when you look at the region I'm

245
00:12:51.665 --> 00:12:53.905
studying that like, you know, there's one side,

246
00:12:53.905 --> 00:12:57.985
they have maybe 10% of the people who join the partisans,

247
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who join the opposition, who resist.

248
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You have another 10% or so rough in the Soviets

249
00:13:04.345 --> 00:13:05.345
after the war, really tried

250
00:13:05.345 --> 00:13:06.985
to quantify and study these things.

251
00:13:07.295 --> 00:13:08.425
There's a lot of evidence.

252
00:13:08.695 --> 00:13:11.905
Another 10% sort of actively collaborated

253
00:13:11.965 --> 00:13:13.265
and joined the Germans,

254
00:13:13.405 --> 00:13:16.065
but then there's this vast mass of people in the middle,

255
00:13:16.125 --> 00:13:18.225
and it's not an undifferentiated mass.

256
00:13:18.525 --> 00:13:21.025
So those are the kinds of questions I, I was asking.

257
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So in my book, I, I,

258
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I have nine chapters,

259
00:13:27.875 --> 00:13:31.655
and across all of them, I trace the lives of a group

260
00:13:31.675 --> 00:13:32.935
of about 10 people.

261
00:13:33.115 --> 00:13:35.495
So they, they're characters in the story

262
00:13:35.955 --> 00:13:38.015
and they reappear across the chapters.

263
00:13:38.475 --> 00:13:40.855
And I have a whole other set of characters who make sort

264
00:13:40.855 --> 00:13:43.615
of cameo appearances in one or two places.

265
00:13:43.955 --> 00:13:46.055
And what I think I'll do in answer

266
00:13:46.075 --> 00:13:49.415
to your question about life stories, is

267
00:13:49.435 --> 00:13:53.535
to just give you an example of three major characters.

268
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Uh, and I, I chose, I, I'm using them in my response

269
00:13:57.935 --> 00:14:00.215
because they took different paths during the war.

270
00:14:00.485 --> 00:14:02.215
They chose different paths,

271
00:14:02.215 --> 00:14:05.735
and I, I, it exemplifies the range of decision making.

272
00:14:05.875 --> 00:14:07.975
But the first one was a young woman

273
00:14:08.595 --> 00:14:12.935
of about 20 years old when the Germans invaded Mila Mazu.

274
00:14:13.815 --> 00:14:16.015
Everyone called her Sia, it was her nickname.

275
00:14:16.235 --> 00:14:18.095
She was a member of the Communist Youth League.

276
00:14:18.675 --> 00:14:20.855
And she was kind of a quintessential member

277
00:14:20.915 --> 00:14:23.175
of the 1930s generation.

278
00:14:23.245 --> 00:14:25.815
That means she had never experienced anything

279
00:14:25.815 --> 00:14:28.815
before the Soviet power and the Russian Revolution.

280
00:14:29.275 --> 00:14:33.495
She was an enthusiast for building socialism in the 1930s.

281
00:14:33.955 --> 00:14:36.375
She was studying to be an aviation engineer.

282
00:14:36.955 --> 00:14:41.095
So the chances for women in the Soviet Union

283
00:14:41.105 --> 00:14:45.015
after the revolution, there, were unprecedented.

284
00:14:45.395 --> 00:14:47.895
And for her, she believed it was the best system

285
00:14:47.895 --> 00:14:51.055
because in part, you know, she could pursue a career

286
00:14:51.225 --> 00:14:52.965
as an aviation engineer.

287
00:14:52.965 --> 00:14:56.205
And she idealized female fighter pilot.

288
00:14:56.385 --> 00:15:00.695
So she was really fired up to fight for the Soviet.

289
00:15:00.955 --> 00:15:03.175
She volunteered right away in 1941.

290
00:15:03.195 --> 00:15:05.695
So in that way, she represents that certain generation.

291
00:15:06.275 --> 00:15:08.975
And she was captured, there's a long story about

292
00:15:09.035 --> 00:15:10.375
how she made it Tom,

293
00:15:11.435 --> 00:15:15.295
but she ends up a free, you know, living in the city,

294
00:15:15.805 --> 00:15:17.415
OFMs under German occupation.

295
00:15:17.715 --> 00:15:19.495
And she becomes a member of,

296
00:15:19.715 --> 00:15:21.855
she Forms a Communist Underground.

297
00:15:22.435 --> 00:15:24.255
Uh, she shows incredible bravery.

298
00:15:24.315 --> 00:15:28.695
She shows, she wrote one of the most insightful,

299
00:15:29.215 --> 00:15:33.415
accounts of how Russian women often interacted

300
00:15:33.525 --> 00:15:35.175
with German men.

301
00:15:35.275 --> 00:15:37.055
So the theme of sexual violence

302
00:15:37.355 --> 00:15:41.175
and, sexuality is, is almost unique in her.

303
00:15:41.355 --> 00:15:42.495
She spoke some Germans.

304
00:15:42.495 --> 00:15:45.015
So she even persuaded some Germans

305
00:15:45.015 --> 00:15:47.375
to join the defect and, and dessert.

306
00:15:47.915 --> 00:15:51.335
Uh, but she was in the ideals

307
00:15:51.335 --> 00:15:53.375
that she embraced about socialism

308
00:15:54.085 --> 00:15:56.615
were at the time being abandoned,

309
00:15:56.755 --> 00:15:59.695
by the increasingly social and conser socially

310
00:15:59.715 --> 00:16:02.335
and culturally conservative Stalinist order.

311
00:16:03.355 --> 00:16:06.175
So the rag was sort of pulled out from under her feet.

312
00:16:06.635 --> 00:16:09.615
Uh, the second person I want to talk about is

313
00:16:10.465 --> 00:16:14.955
took an entirely different path from Lucia, Zu.

314
00:16:15.345 --> 00:16:17.195
This was Barman Shagan.

315
00:16:17.615 --> 00:16:20.795
He became the Collaborationist Mayor OFMs.

316
00:16:21.335 --> 00:16:25.755
And he was a defense lawyer in the 1930s

317
00:16:25.935 --> 00:16:28.875
who had become disillusioned with the Stalinist regime

318
00:16:28.975 --> 00:16:30.155
during the Great Terror.

319
00:16:30.695 --> 00:16:32.595
But his background was also important.

320
00:16:32.735 --> 00:16:34.355
He was a pre-revolutionary.

321
00:16:34.895 --> 00:16:38.995
Uh, he was educated, in law right before the revolution.

322
00:16:39.015 --> 00:16:40.715
He came from the minor nobility.

323
00:16:40.975 --> 00:16:42.995
He was an orthodox believer.

324
00:16:43.215 --> 00:16:45.235
So, you know, he had reasons to,

325
00:16:45.995 --> 00:16:47.835
although to be, you know, to

326
00:16:47.855 --> 00:16:49.795
to be disillusioned with Stalinism.

327
00:16:50.495 --> 00:16:52.595
And, he was imprisoned

328
00:16:52.595 --> 00:16:55.955
after he became the mayor for 25 years, he sat in a Soviet,

329
00:16:56.215 --> 00:16:59.355
prison, wrote incredible prison notebooks that I helped,

330
00:16:59.495 --> 00:17:03.715
publish as part of an annotated edition in, in 2019.

331
00:17:04.255 --> 00:17:07.555
But he exemplifies the kind of biographical logics

332
00:17:07.905 --> 00:17:09.035
that I'm talking about.

333
00:17:09.755 --> 00:17:13.475
'cause he was a sh a defense lawyer during the show trials

334
00:17:13.535 --> 00:17:15.155
of the Great Terror in the 1930s.

335
00:17:15.155 --> 00:17:18.675
So he played a very prescribed role for the regime

336
00:17:18.705 --> 00:17:19.955
with his expertise.

337
00:17:20.535 --> 00:17:22.995
And yet he used the small amount of power

338
00:17:22.995 --> 00:17:26.475
that he had incredibly to get a few people off the hook

339
00:17:26.735 --> 00:17:28.755
and save them from the terror.

340
00:17:29.255 --> 00:17:30.955
And then he became famous andm,

341
00:17:31.215 --> 00:17:33.355
and he did sort of the same thing as mayor.

342
00:17:33.585 --> 00:17:35.235
When he looked up, he was completely

343
00:17:35.675 --> 00:17:36.835
subordinated to the Germans.

344
00:17:37.295 --> 00:17:40.635
But when he, he was able to protect the local population

345
00:17:40.635 --> 00:17:44.355
through his expertise in a time of almost near starvation.

346
00:17:45.255 --> 00:17:50.215
Uh, but he, he also saved some Jewish people,

347
00:17:51.075 --> 00:17:53.695
but he also kind of relished the power

348
00:17:53.695 --> 00:17:54.895
that he had looking down.

349
00:17:55.355 --> 00:17:56.655
And so that's the paradox.

350
00:17:56.795 --> 00:17:58.895
He saw himself as more moral,

351
00:17:59.445 --> 00:18:03.055
more cultured than the more competent the people around him.

352
00:18:03.315 --> 00:18:06.615
And yet he also, you know, was caught up in this web

353
00:18:06.615 --> 00:18:07.775
of power relations.

354
00:18:08.475 --> 00:18:11.415
Now, the final person, I'll just speak very briefly about

355
00:18:11.415 --> 00:18:15.815
this, was, a a peasant, a rural, he represents this sort

356
00:18:15.815 --> 00:18:18.855
of a different world, a rural world, Vasili Monik.

357
00:18:19.075 --> 00:18:22.535
He went, he grew up in a village about 40 miles from

358
00:18:22.635 --> 00:18:24.055
Som, but,

359
00:18:24.435 --> 00:18:27.615
and he witnessed the horrors of collectivization

360
00:18:28.035 --> 00:18:31.095
of agriculture in the early thirties and the great terror.

361
00:18:31.715 --> 00:18:35.055
But the only way for him to escape the collective farm,

362
00:18:35.195 --> 00:18:38.095
get out of his village was to become literate

363
00:18:38.155 --> 00:18:41.215
and become educated and ultimately to join the party.

364
00:18:41.795 --> 00:18:44.015
But he was a very reluctant party member

365
00:18:44.635 --> 00:18:46.215
who was buffeted by events.

366
00:18:46.515 --> 00:18:48.135
He didn't know what choices to make.

367
00:18:48.395 --> 00:18:52.455
He ended up being captured by the Germans, sent to,

368
00:18:52.885 --> 00:18:56.735
east, Germany, Saxony as a forced laborer.

369
00:18:57.355 --> 00:19:01.175
And, but then he faced a lot of stigma for,

370
00:19:01.175 --> 00:19:02.375
because he had been in Germany

371
00:19:02.505 --> 00:19:04.175
after the war in the Soviet Union.

372
00:19:04.235 --> 00:19:08.255
So he sat there and observed his outlet was writing

373
00:19:08.925 --> 00:19:12.335
memoirs, and he wrote memoirs his entire life

374
00:19:12.335 --> 00:19:13.495
about what he had witnessed.

375
00:19:14.075 --> 00:19:17.615
But then he, he, they were only published in a kind

376
00:19:17.615 --> 00:19:20.615
of vanity edition in 200 copies after he died.

377
00:19:21.315 --> 00:19:25.215
Uh, and one of those copies ended up here in Washington at,

378
00:19:25.235 --> 00:19:26.455
the Library of Congress.

379
00:19:26.725 --> 00:19:29.775
Well, from the moment those two regimes fell

380
00:19:29.775 --> 00:19:32.895
after the war, there was a kind

381
00:19:32.895 --> 00:19:34.615
of comparative history that was written.

382
00:19:34.715 --> 00:19:37.415
It was one of the great debates of the 20th century.

383
00:19:37.875 --> 00:19:42.815
And comparing the two often involved, I think, a little bit

384
00:19:42.815 --> 00:19:44.095
of oversimplification

385
00:19:44.095 --> 00:19:47.535
because you kind of construct a kind of ledger, which,

386
00:19:47.715 --> 00:19:50.055
you know, you, when you, when you compare, you have

387
00:19:50.055 --> 00:19:52.575
to stand back and you inevitably oversimplify.

388
00:19:52.875 --> 00:19:54.655
And this was the lesser evil debate.

389
00:19:54.655 --> 00:19:56.095
It was like, which one was worse?

390
00:19:56.565 --> 00:19:58.575
Both were incredibly destructive.

391
00:19:59.355 --> 00:20:03.175
Um, Nazism, however, was only in power for 12 years,

392
00:20:03.275 --> 00:20:05.055
and Stalin for twice as long.

393
00:20:05.515 --> 00:20:08.215
And their launching points were in a different context.

394
00:20:08.245 --> 00:20:12.095
Germany was much more economically developed country than

395
00:20:12.195 --> 00:20:14.615
Stalin, than the Soviet Union, 1929.

396
00:20:15.155 --> 00:20:18.895
So obviously studying som you know, Nazi rule,

397
00:20:19.195 --> 00:20:22.375
INM is very different from Nazi rule in Germany.

398
00:20:22.955 --> 00:20:26.775
So I was not less, I was interested in juxtaposition

399
00:20:26.875 --> 00:20:29.495
of the two regimes and how people experienced both.

400
00:20:29.875 --> 00:20:32.735
But also I came to a different kind of history.

401
00:20:33.205 --> 00:20:35.295
It's what I call an entangled history.

402
00:20:35.875 --> 00:20:39.015
It looks at the intersection of these two regimes,

403
00:20:39.395 --> 00:20:41.055
and it looks at the intersection

404
00:20:41.155 --> 00:20:43.015
of three fields of study, right?

405
00:20:43.725 --> 00:20:46.935
Nazi Germany, Stalinist, Soviet Union, and the Holocaust.

406
00:20:47.585 --> 00:20:51.565
Um, and to try to gain insights from the study of all three.

407
00:20:52.305 --> 00:20:56.565
So both regimes, Nazism and Stalinism were interacting.

408
00:20:56.955 --> 00:20:58.325
They were watching one another,

409
00:20:58.325 --> 00:21:00.045
sometimes learning from another.

410
00:21:00.705 --> 00:21:03.765
But I do take a, I think I have a slightly different take

411
00:21:04.355 --> 00:21:08.005
from previous historians on the intersection

412
00:21:08.825 --> 00:21:12.805
of the two regimes on the eastern front in World War ii.

413
00:21:13.565 --> 00:21:17.725
I see both regimes as revolutionary,

414
00:21:17.865 --> 00:21:19.725
and I see the Nazi Germany,

415
00:21:20.165 --> 00:21:22.525
I take them at their word when they say they were right wing

416
00:21:22.525 --> 00:21:24.925
or nationalist revolutionaries.

417
00:21:26.195 --> 00:21:28.365
Sure, they came to power electorally,

418
00:21:28.385 --> 00:21:31.685
but they saw themselves as radically transforming.

419
00:21:31.715 --> 00:21:34.085
They were, were utopian in that sense.

420
00:21:34.545 --> 00:21:37.085
And revolutions have life cycles.

421
00:21:37.315 --> 00:21:38.605
They have different phases.

422
00:21:39.635 --> 00:21:42.965
Usually they're broad coalitions that then fragment

423
00:21:43.025 --> 00:21:44.365
during the seizure of power.

424
00:21:44.565 --> 00:21:46.565
A new regime is created, right?

425
00:21:46.585 --> 00:21:49.045
But then a new phase of the revolution begins.

426
00:21:49.265 --> 00:21:53.645
And when revolutions are institutionalized, they often

427
00:21:54.315 --> 00:21:57.245
seem to be less radical than their founders wanted.

428
00:21:57.305 --> 00:21:59.765
And then they experience a kind of period

429
00:21:59.765 --> 00:22:01.685
of revolutionary revivalism.

430
00:22:01.985 --> 00:22:04.885
So in the Soviet Union, this was Stalinism was a kind

431
00:22:04.885 --> 00:22:06.005
of second revolution

432
00:22:06.455 --> 00:22:10.915
after 1917, from above, from, from the state

433
00:22:11.335 --> 00:22:14.355
and the great break of, of early thirties

434
00:22:14.415 --> 00:22:15.995
and the great terror of the late thirties.

435
00:22:16.705 --> 00:22:18.835
This was the, the second phase.

436
00:22:19.135 --> 00:22:22.035
But by the time 1941 rolled around,

437
00:22:22.265 --> 00:22:25.635
Stalinism was a much more entrenched, bureaucratic,

438
00:22:26.395 --> 00:22:30.155
hierarchical conservative phase of its revolution.

439
00:22:30.265 --> 00:22:34.355
Whereas for the German case, right, war was central

440
00:22:34.815 --> 00:22:36.235
to the right wing revolution.

441
00:22:36.235 --> 00:22:41.155
They had these martial values of ma martial masculinity.

442
00:22:41.455 --> 00:22:44.275
The new soldier represented the new man

443
00:22:44.815 --> 00:22:47.355
of the national socialist revolution.

444
00:22:47.735 --> 00:22:49.675
And so the war in the East,

445
00:22:49.695 --> 00:22:51.315
and the other element was,

446
00:22:51.545 --> 00:22:53.875
extermination is antisemitism.

447
00:22:54.095 --> 00:22:57.595
So when they invaded, the Soviet Union, 1941,

448
00:22:57.665 --> 00:23:01.915
this triggers the most radical phase of the Nazi revolution,

449
00:23:02.175 --> 00:23:04.875
the final solution, racial colonization.

450
00:23:05.255 --> 00:23:08.475
So my point is, when you understand them as revolutionary

451
00:23:09.515 --> 00:23:14.355
revolutions, they meet, they interact in 19 41, 45,

452
00:23:14.425 --> 00:23:17.835
most intensively at moments when they're at very different

453
00:23:18.095 --> 00:23:21.675
phases of their, their revolutions.

454
00:23:21.975 --> 00:23:25.275
And this, I think, le leads us to certain, insights.

455
00:23:25.615 --> 00:23:28.355
So what a regional study, just to conclude here,

456
00:23:28.415 --> 00:23:31.755
offers like you have a concrete place, a locale,

457
00:23:32.535 --> 00:23:36.955
to explore how these big processes played out in real time

458
00:23:37.535 --> 00:23:40.195
and for real people and how they were experienced.

459
00:23:40.465 --> 00:23:42.715
Something not easy to document,

460
00:23:43.175 --> 00:23:44.795
but it's what I attempted to capture.

461
00:23:45.465 --> 00:23:49.765
And I was able to rely on many fine studies

462
00:23:49.945 --> 00:23:53.005
of Stalinism and Nazism over the last 75 years

463
00:23:53.585 --> 00:23:54.885
by previous historian.

464
00:23:54.885 --> 00:23:56.245
Some of the finest minds

465
00:23:56.245 --> 00:23:59.245
of the historical profession were studying these things.

466
00:23:59.245 --> 00:24:02.725
And so I, in a, in a way, I was standing on the shoulders of

467
00:24:03.305 --> 00:24:04.885
giants, the proverbial giants.

Historical Significance of MK in Soviet Studies

00:00:01 - Mk, which is a region now in the Russian Federation, about twice the size of Belgium, holds a very special, I would say, unique place in, American or US and Western Russian, Stu Russian, and Soviet studies. Because after the German occupation of Mki in World War ii, there was a seizure by the Germans of a cache of Communist party documents that became known

00:00:33 - And that was seized by the Americans after World War II and brought to the United States. And these were the only authentic body of Jo of Communist party archival documents available in the West during the entire Cold War. And Merle Fasad, who was a famous Harvard Sovietologists, wrote a book that was absolutely foundational for the field of Soviet studies called MK under Soviet Rule.

00:01:06 - of Power, has a subtitle that is a kind of homage to Merl tha started MK under Stalinist and Nazi Rule. And working on MK was kind of like doing an archeology of the entire field of, Soviet studies because each generation had worked on that archival materials somewhat differently. But what I wanna say about sources is that the materials that were seized after the war

Exploring Unexamined Archives: The Intersection of Stalinism, Nazism, and the Holocaust

00:01:39 - of the materials that were actually remained in the Soviet Union, and then in post-Soviet Russia. So I was able to, my idea for this was to work on the 99 for percent of the documents that had not been brought. Tom Ys, brought away Fromm Yst and to, add the period of the war because the Mian archive in the West had petered out around the time of Stalin's great terror,

00:02:11 - that region in World War ii. So I'd always been interested in debates about totalitarianism, about comparing Nazi Germany and the Stalinist Soviet Union. It's one of the great intellectual debates of the 20th century. But I also felt that comparisons, overall comparisons, and I can talk about that later, you know, led to certain oversimplifications. and the other element of what I came to, you know,

00:02:43 - and it was, occurred on Smk soil when the Germans invaded. And the Holocaust on Soviet territory was a new field that was opening up after the collapse of the Soviet Union. So I had three fields. I stalinism, I had the study of Nazim or the German occupation on the eastern front, and then the study of the Holocaust and three fields converged onk, and I be,

Experiencing Regime Changes: Lived Histories and Power Dynamics

00:03:16 - interested in lived experience. How ordinary people or, people who are activists on both sides for both regimes, how they experienced these events, how they, and how both regimes alternated. 'cause I'm dealing with two regime changes, right? One in 1941 when the Stalin is the Soviet Union collapsed, and then the German occupation, and then the Reso.

00:03:44 - how people experienced those different regimes. And the other thing is about sources is that in the 2010s, paradoxically, when the war myth under Putin became very official and, you know, politicized, but it led to a flood of what we call ego documents, diaries and autobiographies. So that really changed the nature of my work. And for me, because of the regime changes of 41

00:04:16 - it became a kind of laboratory for studying power relations. And one more thing I would add is largely an ethnically Russian, region. And during, at a time when Russians have launched a new war Russian Federation against Ukraine and are calling Ukrainians fascists, there were a huge number of Russians in MK

Power Dynamics in Occupied Territories: Historical Perspectives

00:04:48 - who became collaborators. And without them, the German occupation could not have worked. So there are many eerie resonances of the period I study and what's happening in, Russia and Ukraine, today with this new war. For me, the most interesting question is how do we understand what power is? What is power? In one common definition, power is getting people to do things they

00:05:19 - but when it comes to Stalinism and Nazism, the two dictatorial regimes I'm studying, especially in World War ii, there's an overwhelming, focus or proclivity to define power as force or coercion or military or political, repression. And, well, I mentioned Merl Fe's famous work on MK that

00:05:48 - And following Hana, our end fan saw, saw power as about increasingly total control. But when you have two regime changes in three years, that's what I'm talking about. In the middle of war, there's not even the aspiration of total control. There's power vacuum, which I talk about when the Germans come in and chaos and a great deal of more room for maneuver and agency among people who are facing those power changes.

Power Dynamics and Choices in Totalitarian Regimes

00:06:22 - during the great terror of the late thirties, everyone was very constrained, very afraid, and afraid to make choices. And there's an old Soviet saying, you know, no, initiative goes unpunished. but in 1941 with the ach, the German army approaching smart yst, even just staying put and deciding not to make any kind of choice represented a kind of choice.

00:06:55 - of other dimensions to force and violence, to how we understand power and how historians can treat it. There's, for example, the power of ideas and ideology. There's the power of propaganda and mass mobilization, which is very important in the world we live in, in creating an alternative reality. and both these regimes were mass mobilizing regimes that engaged in one of the largest propaganda wars in World War II of all time.

00:07:26 - and expertise, which are badly needed, even by the German occupation regime, which was conducting what had called a war of annihilation in the East. And then there's also power on things like gender and national ethnic hierarchies, which, you know, were important locally, but also intersected with the regimes. The two regimes ideologies, they were, the Germans were not just carrying out a genocide of the Jews, but implementing a kind of racial colonization

Power Dynamics and Local Collaboration Under Occupation

00:07:58 - that reversed the Soviet national one. So Russians, which were at the top of the Soviet system, were the lowest now of the SLS and considered unreliable. So this multidimensional treatment of power, I think is what is new about my work in this area. And, you know, I should say that, you know, you could be powerful in one area, but weak in another. At both regimes, which were incredibly dictatorial and interventionists, they both had glaring weaknesses.

00:08:29 - remained shockingly thin in the countryside, and this was a largely rural area. And Germany on the eastern front had to rely on locals to administer these vast new territories, which were, while their own men were fighting largely at the front lines. So approximately one third of the Western Soviet Union was occupied. And so they had to rely on locals and collaborate collaborators

00:09:01 - as they were their own ideology told them that Russians were, subhumans and racial inferiors. So that was a, ended up being a real weakness for the German occupation regime. And after a couple of years, locals turned against them after all the atrocities. Biographical logics is a term that I kind of coined and invented for this book that I've written a crucibles of power. It what I mean by it, I, it sort of denotes the patterns

Life Choices Under Totalitarian Regimes

00:09:33 - about life trajectories under these two dictatorships. So, you know, choice and decision making are things that are studied across the human and social sciences. I mean, studied by neuroscientists, by psychologists, by economists. What does the historian have to add here? Well, studying the past, we can see the entire life trajectories of people. And, of course,

00:10:05 - and, you know, take, take, unexpected, courses, but at the same time, past choices, bias, future decisions. And the other thing that historians have to offer is that we can study the context. We know a hundred years ago or 50 years ago, we can contextualize the decisions that people had to make to a much greater extent than when

00:10:34 - So at a, in, when a, when a regime changes, when Stalinism is incredibly interventionist regime, that in is controlling people's life choices more than before, then it disappears suddenly as the, you know, the Germans, the Operation Barbarosa in 1941, which invaded the, when they invaded the sodium, it was in Stalin, was completely unprepared. It was a famous, surprise for Stalin. And the Germans advanced with extraordinary speed.

Choices Amidst Chaos: The Impact of Ideology and Identity during the 1941 Invasion

00:11:06 - and reached small in August of 1941. So everyone faced a choice. And how did they, some people burned their communist party cards and went over to the Germans, others, when it joined the partisans and resisted, how did, how do we understand how they made those choices? I would say that, you know, both Stalinism and Nazim classified people by the background

00:11:37 - or determined their orientation. So, you know, the Nazis thought in terms of race, and the Soviets thought in terms of class, but increasingly, nationality also was important, whether you're Russian or Ukrainian, or Georgian. So victims of Stalinism in, before 1941, people had been repressed and the German eyes had a leg up. They would be more reliable because they hated Stalinism. So in that way too, biographies influenced the choices that were available.

00:12:12 - of entire range of behavior. You had a lot of side switching people looking for, where the war which was side was gonna win. You had a lot of accommodation, but not necessarily to your own personal reasons, although it was rampant. But sometimes to protect your networks or your groups or your communities, you had some opposition. You had above all a quest for survival for calories.

Choices and Paths: Personal Narratives in Conflict

00:12:41 - to map out the kinds of choices that people made. And, finally here, just to conclude, I'd say that there's some evidence when you look at the region I'm studying that like, you know, there's one side, they have maybe 10% of the people who join the partisans, who join the opposition, who resist. You have another 10% or so rough in the Soviets after the war, really tried to quantify and study these things. There's a lot of evidence. Another 10% sort of actively collaborated

00:13:13 - but then there's this vast mass of people in the middle, and it's not an undifferentiated mass. So those are the kinds of questions I, I was asking. So in my book, I, I, I have nine chapters, and across all of them, I trace the lives of a group of about 10 people. So they, they're characters in the story and they reappear across the chapters. And I have a whole other set of characters who make sort of cameo appearances in one or two places.

00:13:46 - to your question about life stories, is to just give you an example of three major characters. and I, I chose, I, I'm using them in my response because they took different paths during the war. They chose different paths, and I, I, it exemplifies the range of decision making. But the first one was a young woman of about 20 years old when the Germans invaded Mila Mazu. Everyone called her Sia, it was her nickname.

Women in Soviet Society: A Story of Bravery and Idealism

00:14:18 - And she was kind of a quintessential member of the 1930s generation. That means she had never experienced anything before the Soviet power and the Russian Revolution. She was an enthusiast for building socialism in the 1930s. She was studying to be an aviation engineer. So the chances for women in the Soviet Union after the revolution, there, were unprecedented. And for her, she believed it was the best system

00:14:51 - as an aviation engineer. And she idealized female fighter pilot. So she was really fired up to fight for the Soviet. She volunteered right away in 1941. So in that way, she represents that certain generation. And she was captured, there's a long story about how she made it Tom, but she ends up a free, you know, living in the city, OFMs under German occupation. And she becomes a member of,

00:15:22 - she shows incredible bravery. She shows, she wrote one of the most insightful, accounts of how Russian women often interacted with German men. So the theme of sexual violence and, sexuality is, is almost unique in her. She spoke some Germans. So she even persuaded some Germans to join the defect and, and dessert. but she was in the ideals

Contrasting Paths Amid Stalinist Collapse

00:15:54 - were at the time being abandoned, by the increasingly social and conser socially and culturally conservative Stalinist order. So the rag was sort of pulled out from under her feet. the second person I want to talk about is took an entirely different path from Lucia, Zu. This was Barman Shagan. He became the Collaborationist Mayor OFMs.

00:16:25 - who had become disillusioned with the Stalinist regime during the Great Terror. But his background was also important. He was a pre-revolutionary. he was educated, in law right before the revolution. He came from the minor nobility. He was an orthodox believer. So, you know, he had reasons to, although to be, you know, to to be disillusioned with Stalinism. And, he was imprisoned

00:16:56 - prison, wrote incredible prison notebooks that I helped, publish as part of an annotated edition in, in 2019. But he exemplifies the kind of biographical logics that I'm talking about. 'cause he was a sh a defense lawyer during the show trials of the Great Terror in the 1930s. So he played a very prescribed role for the regime with his expertise. And yet he used the small amount of power

Power, Morality, and Choice in Times of Tyranny

00:17:26 - and save them from the terror. And then he became famous andm, and he did sort of the same thing as mayor. When he looked up, he was completely subordinated to the Germans. But when he, he was able to protect the local population through his expertise in a time of almost near starvation. but he, he also saved some Jewish people, but he also kind of relished the power

00:17:55 - And so that's the paradox. He saw himself as more moral, more cultured than the more competent the people around him. And yet he also, you know, was caught up in this web of power relations. Now, the final person, I'll just speak very briefly about this, was, a a peasant, a rural, he represents this sort of a different world, a rural world, Vasili Monik. He went, he grew up in a village about 40 miles from Som, but,

00:18:28 - of agriculture in the early thirties and the great terror. But the only way for him to escape the collective farm, get out of his village was to become literate and become educated and ultimately to join the party. But he was a very reluctant party member who was buffeted by events. He didn't know what choices to make. He ended up being captured by the Germans, sent to, east, Germany, Saxony as a forced laborer.

Memoirs of Memory: Entangled Histories of Totalitarian Regimes

00:19:01 - because he had been in Germany after the war in the Soviet Union. So he sat there and observed his outlet was writing memoirs, and he wrote memoirs his entire life about what he had witnessed. But then he, he, they were only published in a kind of vanity edition in 200 copies after he died. and one of those copies ended up here in Washington at, the Library of Congress. Well, from the moment those two regimes fell

00:19:32 - of comparative history that was written. It was one of the great debates of the 20th century. And comparing the two often involved, I think, a little bit of oversimplification because you kind of construct a kind of ledger, which, you know, you, when you, when you compare, you have to stand back and you inevitably oversimplify. And this was the lesser evil debate. It was like, which one was worse? Both were incredibly destructive. Nazism, however, was only in power for 12 years,

00:20:05 - And their launching points were in a different context. Germany was much more economically developed country than Stalin, than the Soviet Union, 1929. So obviously studying som you know, Nazi rule, INM is very different from Nazi rule in Germany. So I was not less, I was interested in juxtaposition of the two regimes and how people experienced both. But also I came to a different kind of history. It's what I call an entangled history.

Intersecting Revolutions: Understanding Nazism, Stalinism, and the Holocaust

00:20:39 - and it looks at the intersection of three fields of study, right? Nazi Germany, Stalinist, Soviet Union, and the Holocaust. and to try to gain insights from the study of all three. So both regimes, Nazism and Stalinism were interacting. They were watching one another, sometimes learning from another. But I do take a, I think I have a slightly different take from previous historians on the intersection

00:21:13 - I see both regimes as revolutionary, and I see the Nazi Germany, I take them at their word when they say they were right wing or nationalist revolutionaries. Sure, they came to power electorally, but they saw themselves as radically transforming. They were, were utopian in that sense. And revolutions have life cycles. They have different phases.

00:21:43 - during the seizure of power. A new regime is created, right? But then a new phase of the revolution begins. And when revolutions are institutionalized, they often seem to be less radical than their founders wanted. And then they experience a kind of period of revolutionary revivalism. So in the Soviet Union, this was Stalinism was a kind of second revolution after 1917, from above, from, from the state

Phases of Revolutionary Power: Stalinism and Nazi Germany

00:22:14 - and the great terror of the late thirties. This was the, the second phase. But by the time 1941 rolled around, Stalinism was a much more entrenched, bureaucratic, hierarchical conservative phase of its revolution. Whereas for the German case, right, war was central to the right wing revolution. They had these martial values of ma martial masculinity.

00:22:44 - of the national socialist revolution. And so the war in the East, and the other element was, extermination is antisemitism. So when they invaded, the Soviet Union, 1941, this triggers the most radical phase of the Nazi revolution, the final solution, racial colonization. So my point is, when you understand them as revolutionary revolutions, they meet, they interact in 19 41, 45,

00:23:18 - phases of their, their revolutions. And this, I think, le leads us to certain, insights. So what a regional study, just to conclude here, offers like you have a concrete place, a locale, to explore how these big processes played out in real time and for real people and how they were experienced. Something not easy to document, but it's what I attempted to capture.

Building on Historical Giants

00:24:03 - of Stalinism and Nazism over the last 75 years by previous historian. Some of the finest minds of the historical profession were studying these things. And so I, in a, in a way, I was standing on the shoulders of giants, the proverbial giants.

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Crucibles of Power: Smolensk under Stalinist and Nazi Rule

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