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This video video discusses the concept of "wicked problems" and "grand challenges," highlighting their complexities and the need for a collaborative approach among various stakeholders. Wicked problems are characterized by their messy nature, multiple stakeholders with differing viewpoints, and no clear solutions. Grand challenges, described as "super wicked problems," build on these characteristics while introducing additional layers of complexity, including longer timeframes and broader stakeholder involvement.

The speaker emphasizes the importance of engaging diverse stakeholders not just for their knowledge, but also to ensure buy-in for necessary changes. They outline key characteristics of wicked problems, such as the lack of definitive solutions and the dynamic, interconnected nature of the issues at hand.

The speaker also discusses their involvement in developing a mental health network, which entails integrating a wide range of professionals and consumers involved in mental health care. They highlight using established theories, such as situated learning, to foster collaboration and enhance practice relevance.

A methodological framework involving interviews and workshops is described, which helps gather insights from different stakeholders and facilitates a better understanding of the mental health landscape. The resulting "four pillars framework" serves as a foundation for addressing grand challenges in mental health practice, focusing on purpose, governance, membership, and demonstrating value.

In conclusion, the speaker reflects on the difficulties of sustaining engagement over time and the necessity of fostering knowledge among participants to navigate and manage complex challenges effectively. They emphasize the role of technology in facilitating communication and collaboration while also recognizing the importance of context in choosing appropriate methods and tools for engagement.

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I think you've probably all heard wicked problems,

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messy complex problems

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and a grand challenge has been referred to as a super

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wicked problem, or it's also been referred to

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as wicked problems on steroids.

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So they are very messy, they're very complex.

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They comprise a number

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of the wicked problem characteristics,

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but have a few of their own.

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So if we look at the wicked problem characteristics,

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there's loads of different people involved,

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different stakeholders, all with important

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contributions from a content point of view

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because we need their knowledge to help us resolve

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that particular situation.

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But we also need to get them on board from a more

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processional point of view.

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Because if we are gonna make change happen, you know,

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you can't just tell people what to do, they've got

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to believe in what they're doing

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and to move forward with it.

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So we need to attend to the range of different stakeholders.

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And of course that makes it difficult

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because you've got lots of people with lots

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of very different views, very different beliefs,

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and sometimes some quite strong beliefs.

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So that's the first thing.

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The second characteristic

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of wicked problem is there's no one right answer.

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It's not like a complicated problem, it's complex,

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it's wicked because there isn't a single solution

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that we sort of need to navigate

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and negotiate our way to try to resolve that situation.

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The third, therefore almost as a result of the second,

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is there's no really clear definition of

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what the problem is.

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What the challenge is, it, it's sort

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of amorphous like an ame where it grows.

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And that leads nicely into the fourth characteristic,

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which is as we begin to unpack it,

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we also begin tosses more to it as we begin

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to resolve little bits of it, new bits emerge.

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So it's got a dynamic nature to it.

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And then finally that dynamic,

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that complexity just is reflected in the fact

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that these issues,

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these concerns are all highly interconnected

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and that's what makes it messy.

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You can't just break it down into discreet chunks

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and work on it because that doesn't come up

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with sustainable solutions.

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You've got to look at it in the whole.

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So that's, that's your common

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characteristics for a wicked problem.

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And that's certainly true of a grand challenge.

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But what a grand challenge has above

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and beyond that is if you like a couple of extra dimensions,

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one is a temporal dimension,

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but on the whole grand challenge is encompass a much longer

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time period and

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therefore trying to keep the momentum, the energy,

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the engagement is much more difficult.

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You know, you know what it's like if you're having

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to nibble away at something for weeks, it's hard enough,

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but for years it's a serious challenge.

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Secondly is it's a much wider jurisdictional boundary set.

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You're involving a lot more stakeholders and

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therefore it's trying to take, well, firstly is it's trying

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to manage all that knowledge.

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And secondly, it's trying to find ways

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of getting the right people included so that you've got

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that robustness,

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but also that ownership, which is really fundamental.

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So I think they are, you know,

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that's what a grand challenge is.

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A grand challenges will encompass climate change, poverty.

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These are really big, big problems.

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Whereas a wicked problem might be something like the

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building of new, transmission infrastructure

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where you've still got a lot of stakeholders

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and different perspectives, different values,

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not exactly clear where the boundary is,

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but it is more bounded.

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You're going to be able to resolve it within a year

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or maybe two depending on

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how well you go about managing this wicked problem.

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Or as climate change, we're not going to be able

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to resolve it in a year, in two years if you look at them.

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Some of these are likely to be multi-decade or so.

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Hopefully that gives you an idea of a grand challenge.

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Why I did it. Well firstly,

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I had already an established relationship

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with people within the mental health arena

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and one of the new initiatives

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that was being developed was the instigation

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of a mental health network.

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And the idea of the mental health network was to try

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and bring together a whole raft of different people

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who are involved in mental health.

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So if you look at the mental health landscape,

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then you've got psychiatrists, you've got peak bodies

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that are carer, consumer oriented.

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You've got the criminal justice system

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because unfortunately a lot of people

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with mental health unfortunately

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get tangled up with the law.

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You've got occupational therapy, physical therapy,

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you've got gps, you've got some

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of the specialist arenas like Alzheimer's, et cetera.

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So the first thing was to try

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and find a way of bringing these people together so

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that we could take this more holistic approach.

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And they asked if I would get involved

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in this in working with them.

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And I was very attracted to that, partly from a sort of

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personal, I don't know if you wanna call it ethical stance,

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but I think it's near that's really deserved

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of some support development, extension, et cetera.

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But also because I saw it as a grand challenge and

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therefore my background, my knowledge

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of working in complex messy problems

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because I have an operational research background,

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I could see that potentially having a contribution.

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The obvious one to start with is situated learning.

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Um, and that comes outta winger and lava's work.

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And it's essentially it's taking

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as its focus the relationship between learning

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and the social situation in which it occurs.

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So what we're looking at situated learning is let's say

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you're a nurse in a hospital,

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you have your technical professional knowledge already,

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but that that is continuously augmented, extended,

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developed, refined within your community,

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which is why the situated learning gave way to the concept

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of communities and practice because your learning with

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and within the sociopolitical context of your environment.

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Um, and that's quite nice

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because it's not just looking at the content,

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but it's looking at the content within the context.

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And that context will be some of the operational challenges,

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but also some of the norms, the values, the behaviors,

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et cetera, beliefs that are involved within

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that particular realm.

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It's thinking about it within

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a participation mean it's usually seen for sides

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to this content, community context and participation.

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When you join a community practice, when you engage in

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situated learning to a degree, you're giving something up.

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If nothing else, your time, communities

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of practice are voluntary.

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And where they get tangled up is when management tries

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to instigate a community of practice

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because it is a voluntary, organic entity where

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the pursuit is being a better practitioner,

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doing a better job.

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And so situated learning seemed to fit very, very strongly,

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particularly within the mental health focus, particularly

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because mental health is such a challenging arena,

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unlike physical health where let's face it,

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we've got a pretty good idea of how to, how

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to fix a broken leg.

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You pretty much use the same process across the board.

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Mental health is very much more pa, consumer dis

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consumer driven, patient driven.

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But they tend to use the word consumer and

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therefore it has to be much more context dependent.

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It's not one recipe, it is taking into account the context.

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It's taking into account all of that manifestation

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of what's gone on before and

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after the family, the community that you are within.

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And so it seemed a very natural theory, body theory theory

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to work with when we are looking at the mental health

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and the mental health network, obviously communities

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of practice leading into the landscape of practice

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fitted beautifully because we've got a whole range

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of communities within my landscape

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of mental health and the mental health network.

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You've got communities around psychiatry.

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So there's a Royal College of Psychiatrists

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that's a community of practice with a degree

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of formality to it.

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But you've also got carer consumer bodies,

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you which are peak bodies, again,

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they are communities of practice.

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You've got doctors speaking to one another.

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So you've got this range of communities of practice.

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We needed to try and find ways

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of integrating them into this landscape of practice

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to help manage this brand challenge

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and help give

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that mental health network the greatest chance of success.

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And you know, that's sort of some of the context within it.

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Now you've got some very different knowledge bases,

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you've got some very different power differentials.

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You've got some, well you've,

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everybody pretty much has got a time poverty issue.

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It's got some challenges about resourcing.

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And so therefore when that started to lead into method,

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we were having to think about

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how we researched this in a way that was going to be really

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sensitive to those time pressures.

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Otherwise we weren't going to get anywhere.

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The other thing I think that we pick up is two other bodies.

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One is psis, which is moving beyond judgment.

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That's purely on a content sort of multi-criteria,

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abstract objective reality.

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Two judgment. That's much more about practical judgment.

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It's about knowing when to do something, how to do something

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with a group of people.

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And the final body, which comes out

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of my work in wicked messy complex problems, is some alongs

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around modeling and group support systems,

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which I'll pick up a bit more.

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We talk about the methodology

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and just how do we help people negotiate.

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So there was a body of theory implicit within the study.

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It's not remarked on explicitly in the paper

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around negotiation.

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We started off, although I had worked in the mental health

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arena a little bit already,

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I thought I'd better read a bit more about

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mental health networks.

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Um, 'cause up to that point

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I hadn't spent much time in a network perspective.

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So you do as most academics who do you know,

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some reading in the area.

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Um, and there's quite a lot

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of work in the US predominantly proven and people.

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So that gave me a foundation. Foundation.

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From that I began to work up a set of interview questions,

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recognizing

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that the maximum time I was going to get would be an hour.

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Um, I might be lucky for a bit longer,

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but people I wanted to interview were senior people

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because what I wanted to talk to in that first instigation

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was the makers and shakers in mental health

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networks across Australia.

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And that might be people who had you know,

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psychiatry backgrounds, senior management roles,

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but also peak body leads.

241
00:11:22.655 --> 00:11:25.475
So again, I'm trying to take a plurality and perspective,

242
00:11:26.215 --> 00:11:29.635
but those who had an intimate knowledge in the setting up a

243
00:11:29.635 --> 00:11:31.635
management of mental health networks.

244
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So they're busy people. Um, so we designed the questions

245
00:11:36.915 --> 00:11:39.315
that we could get through in about an hour.

246
00:11:40.085 --> 00:11:43.995
There were two of us doing the interviews so that we could,

247
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you know, sort of compare

248
00:11:45.635 --> 00:11:49.875
and contrast our own observations, not just in terms of

249
00:11:49.875 --> 00:11:51.235
what was said but how it was said

250
00:11:51.445 --> 00:11:52.675
where there was an appetite

251
00:11:52.675 --> 00:11:54.245
to answer the question, et cetera.

252
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Each of the interviews with the interviewee's permission was

253
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recorded, transcribed,

254
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and then the next step was to put it end-to-end vivo.

255
00:12:03.825 --> 00:12:06.965
And the combination of reading about mental health networks

256
00:12:07.065 --> 00:12:10.925
and analyzing these interviews gave us our first set

257
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of codes, a mixture of AP priori from the literature

258
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and emergent from the interviews.

259
00:12:18.295 --> 00:12:20.475
And that gave us, if you like, our first draft

260
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and we could compare and contrast across the different

261
00:12:23.795 --> 00:12:25.995
interviews to get some convergent validity

262
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and sort of do that triangulation.

263
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That's very much descriptive, it's about what should be.

264
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We then went into the second phase,

265
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which was running a series of workshops,

266
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which was allowing us to see what happened in practice.

267
00:12:43.615 --> 00:12:47.035
The mental health network had been subdivided into 10

268
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sub-networks because of its breadth.

269
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And the idea was to run a workshop with each subnetwork

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in such a way that we gave value back to them,

271
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otherwise I wouldn't have got them there.

272
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But also 'cause I think it's

273
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ethical and the right thing to do.

274
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And the idea was to focus on helping them navigate their

275
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subnetworks direction, their strategic direction.

276
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Um, so each subnetwork was to be half, half a day.

277
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Again, because I'm conscious of time poverty.

278
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The design, although it was consistent across the 10,

279
00:13:21.255 --> 00:13:25.715
was reviewed and minor tweaks made talking to the leads

280
00:13:25.775 --> 00:13:28.635
of these sub networks to get buy-in.

281
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And we used a group support system to help us

282
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in running these workshops.

283
00:13:35.695 --> 00:13:38.755
And one of the things about grand challenges is,

284
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and if you look at some of the literature around it,

285
00:13:41.425 --> 00:13:44.595
there's a body of work that looks at robust actions

286
00:13:44.985 --> 00:13:49.275
through the lens of multi vocality through

287
00:13:50.075 --> 00:13:53.275
participatory architectures and distributed experimentation.

288
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We needed to find ways of enabling our participants

289
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to speak, to share that knowledge,

290
00:14:00.095 --> 00:14:02.315
but to share that knowledge safely.

291
00:14:02.975 --> 00:14:05.035
The notions of psychological safety,

292
00:14:05.505 --> 00:14:08.835
because we had such wide power differentials

293
00:14:09.525 --> 00:14:13.075
where you've got psychiatrists who have got a wealth

294
00:14:13.215 --> 00:14:17.795
of experience and qualifications to back that up compared to

295
00:14:18.645 --> 00:14:20.515
lived experience care

296
00:14:20.575 --> 00:14:24.115
and consumers, you've got quite a different knowledge base

297
00:14:24.255 --> 00:14:26.075
but also perceived power base.

298
00:14:26.655 --> 00:14:27.955
And we were really keen

299
00:14:28.175 --> 00:14:30.595
to not prioritize one over the other.

300
00:14:31.495 --> 00:14:32.635
The group support system,

301
00:14:32.895 --> 00:14:35.275
the one we were using is called Strategy finder.

302
00:14:35.625 --> 00:14:38.515
What it allows people to do is put their contributions in

303
00:14:38.625 --> 00:14:41.595
anonymously so they could be multi vocal.

304
00:14:42.825 --> 00:14:45.435
They were done anonymously, so they felt safe.

305
00:14:46.535 --> 00:14:49.795
But then we captured the information in such a way

306
00:14:49.795 --> 00:14:51.115
that everybody could speak

307
00:14:51.715 --> 00:14:53.685
because they were putting them in themselves,

308
00:14:54.105 --> 00:14:56.325
it was in their words and

309
00:14:56.325 --> 00:14:58.365
because they were speaking simultaneously,

310
00:14:59.105 --> 00:15:01.005
it was productive in terms of time.

311
00:15:01.825 --> 00:15:04.765
And so we were getting them to talk about their aspirations,

312
00:15:04.765 --> 00:15:07.205
issues and opportunities to help them

313
00:15:07.875 --> 00:15:09.885
move forward in their sub network

314
00:15:11.095 --> 00:15:15.365
using both this technology that allowed us to enable people

315
00:15:15.425 --> 00:15:17.845
to speak, but also a technique

316
00:15:17.845 --> 00:15:21.045
that's embedded within the software, which allows us

317
00:15:21.045 --> 00:15:23.965
to manage the complexity of all of the contributions.

318
00:15:24.475 --> 00:15:26.805
Because if we go back to wicked problems

319
00:15:26.985 --> 00:15:28.365
and grand challenges,

320
00:15:28.715 --> 00:15:31.405
they are highly interconnected in terms

321
00:15:31.505 --> 00:15:32.925
of all the different components.

322
00:15:33.585 --> 00:15:34.725
The technique, causal

323
00:15:34.725 --> 00:15:38.365
or cognitive mapping allows us to build chains of arguments.

324
00:15:38.865 --> 00:15:41.365
And what it did is one of the very big benefits,

325
00:15:41.545 --> 00:15:44.085
and I I know a question later on is what were the benefits?

326
00:15:44.345 --> 00:15:46.685
One of them was helping them understand their

327
00:15:46.685 --> 00:15:47.805
own landscape better.

328
00:15:48.635 --> 00:15:51.805
They got a much better sense not only of

329
00:15:51.805 --> 00:15:54.485
what others thought, but what they themselves thought

330
00:15:54.825 --> 00:15:57.485
as they began to be able to look at it,

331
00:15:57.615 --> 00:16:00.165
understand the consequences, understand

332
00:16:00.165 --> 00:16:02.085
what the explanations and options were.

333
00:16:02.625 --> 00:16:05.085
And so they were for the first time managing their

334
00:16:05.085 --> 00:16:08.605
complexity rather than just nibbling at edges

335
00:16:08.625 --> 00:16:12.005
and being a little hesitant, they don't open Pandora's box.

336
00:16:12.945 --> 00:16:17.725
So we ran these 10 workshops using the strategy finder

337
00:16:18.405 --> 00:16:20.805
software, focusing on the strategic future.

338
00:16:21.785 --> 00:16:24.165
And that gave us a lot of information with one

339
00:16:24.165 --> 00:16:26.365
of us facilitating and one of us being an observer,

340
00:16:26.985 --> 00:16:28.845
making notes on behaviors,

341
00:16:29.025 --> 00:16:31.365
on questions being asked, et cetera.

342
00:16:32.225 --> 00:16:34.885
We then did a series of interviews with the people

343
00:16:34.985 --> 00:16:38.845
who were co-chair for each of the sub networks to talk

344
00:16:38.845 --> 00:16:42.285
to them about the practicalities on the basis of this.

345
00:16:42.385 --> 00:16:44.125
Did they find the workshop had taken them

346
00:16:44.125 --> 00:16:45.965
forward, had it help them?

347
00:16:46.465 --> 00:16:50.245
And what we were seeking to do then is refine those codes so

348
00:16:50.245 --> 00:16:51.725
that we could look at the workshops

349
00:16:51.905 --> 00:16:54.725
and that second set of interviews through the lens

350
00:16:54.745 --> 00:16:59.245
of our initial emergent and a priori codes refine them.

351
00:16:59.665 --> 00:17:02.525
And that's what gave rise to the four pillars framework.

352
00:17:03.325 --> 00:17:04.965
I suppose the results are twofold.

353
00:17:05.385 --> 00:17:08.685
Um, the, there's results for the mental health network

354
00:17:09.145 --> 00:17:13.445
and there's results for academia and knowledge practice.

355
00:17:14.095 --> 00:17:15.365
Let's start with the main results

356
00:17:15.465 --> 00:17:16.805
for the mental health network.

357
00:17:17.985 --> 00:17:21.405
If we take it at the relatively micro level, each

358
00:17:21.405 --> 00:17:25.245
of the sub networks had gained a much better understanding

359
00:17:25.745 --> 00:17:30.445
of their particular context about where one another was at,

360
00:17:30.815 --> 00:17:33.565
about building a really good understanding

361
00:17:33.565 --> 00:17:34.685
of who to go and talk to.

362
00:17:34.785 --> 00:17:37.565
One of the expressions that came up frequently was being

363
00:17:37.565 --> 00:17:39.085
able to know who's who in the zoo.

364
00:17:39.875 --> 00:17:44.405
They got. Not just the knowledge of how to sort of treat

365
00:17:44.625 --> 00:17:47.325
and manage consumer, but who to go to

366
00:17:48.145 --> 00:17:50.015
and where were the interfaces.

367
00:17:50.715 --> 00:17:53.335
And that knowledge was incredibly important to them.

368
00:17:53.755 --> 00:17:57.055
It gave them a direction to be able to move towards.

369
00:17:57.755 --> 00:17:59.695
So that was sort of at the micro level.

370
00:18:00.715 --> 00:18:03.415
The mental health network was overseen

371
00:18:03.435 --> 00:18:05.415
by two mental health network leads.

372
00:18:05.475 --> 00:18:09.055
So they were sort of looking at an overarching perspective

373
00:18:09.115 --> 00:18:10.655
of these 10 sub networks.

374
00:18:11.635 --> 00:18:15.535
And what the study gave them is the ability to look at

375
00:18:15.535 --> 00:18:17.455
what came outta each of those 10

376
00:18:17.875 --> 00:18:20.455
and start to see, okay, well it's best practice here

377
00:18:20.795 --> 00:18:22.215
and we can share it over there.

378
00:18:22.955 --> 00:18:25.735
Uh, so essentially it was looking at the waft and the weave.

379
00:18:25.765 --> 00:18:28.615
What were the common problems that was being experienced

380
00:18:28.875 --> 00:18:30.335
and how could they be resolved?

381
00:18:31.195 --> 00:18:32.895
And so it was really beginning

382
00:18:32.915 --> 00:18:36.255
to get more coherence at the network level rather than the

383
00:18:36.255 --> 00:18:37.255
subnetwork level.

384
00:18:38.235 --> 00:18:40.455
And then if I take it up one further step,

385
00:18:40.835 --> 00:18:43.775
the study also informed a major review

386
00:18:43.835 --> 00:18:46.655
of the mental health network, which was sort

387
00:18:46.655 --> 00:18:48.495
of at a more governmental level.

388
00:18:49.635 --> 00:18:51.215
So that was sort of, if you like,

389
00:18:51.215 --> 00:18:52.815
the practical contribution.

390
00:18:53.395 --> 00:18:56.575
If you look at it more from the academic conceptual one,

391
00:18:56.675 --> 00:18:58.215
it was the four pillars framework

392
00:18:58.865 --> 00:19:03.335
where in essence the pillars surrounding thinking about the

393
00:19:03.335 --> 00:19:04.335
landscape's purpose.

394
00:19:05.435 --> 00:19:08.455
And each of these pillars comprised a number of factors.

395
00:19:09.275 --> 00:19:11.855
You know, in terms of some of the real challenges

396
00:19:11.875 --> 00:19:13.775
around navigating purpose,

397
00:19:14.685 --> 00:19:16.575
because it's a contested space,

398
00:19:17.875 --> 00:19:21.535
you need enough clarity of purpose so

399
00:19:21.535 --> 00:19:24.295
that everybody's singing from the same hymn sheet,

400
00:19:24.875 --> 00:19:27.455
but you also need to have enough fluidity so

401
00:19:27.455 --> 00:19:30.495
that everybody can feel a buy-in to that purpose.

402
00:19:31.325 --> 00:19:35.295
Because we had a, a wealth of different, I dunno

403
00:19:35.295 --> 00:19:36.655
what the plural of purposes are,

404
00:19:36.975 --> 00:19:41.375
I think it probably is purposes, ranging from, you know,

405
00:19:41.605 --> 00:19:43.015
best clinical practice

406
00:19:43.115 --> 00:19:46.295
to advising policy makers being in advocacy,

407
00:19:47.095 --> 00:19:48.975
ensuring everybody had good care.

408
00:19:49.595 --> 00:19:51.935
So you are trying to find that balance.

409
00:19:52.075 --> 00:19:54.495
So it's determining and legitimizing the purpose.

410
00:19:55.395 --> 00:19:56.815
The second one was very much

411
00:19:56.955 --> 00:19:58.135
and one of the tensions

412
00:19:58.525 --> 00:20:02.815
that was experienced in the governance side, cops, you know,

413
00:20:02.815 --> 00:20:05.615
communities of practice are organic

414
00:20:06.115 --> 00:20:09.055
and individualistic and self-driven.

415
00:20:09.715 --> 00:20:11.895
But what was very clear from the study,

416
00:20:12.325 --> 00:20:15.055
when you're looking at landscapes, you need some governance

417
00:20:15.055 --> 00:20:19.535
to get some coherency to provide the resources,

418
00:20:19.755 --> 00:20:21.935
to enable, things to happen.

419
00:20:21.935 --> 00:20:24.095
Whether it's a guide, a set of guidelines,

420
00:20:24.095 --> 00:20:27.615
whether it's a webpage, whether it's somebody being able

421
00:20:27.795 --> 00:20:31.015
to keep on top of the minutes notes that those being taken.

422
00:20:31.835 --> 00:20:34.935
And so there was a really interesting sort of tension

423
00:20:35.165 --> 00:20:38.735
between wanting enough structure to enable it

424
00:20:38.735 --> 00:20:42.295
to work effectively without getting in the way of

425
00:20:42.295 --> 00:20:45.015
that community of practice operating effectively.

426
00:20:45.875 --> 00:20:49.325
And that tension was played out throughout the study.

427
00:20:49.865 --> 00:20:52.565
And that's one of the ones that when we move into landscapes

428
00:20:52.565 --> 00:20:54.485
of practice, needs to be born in mind.

429
00:20:56.205 --> 00:20:57.825
The membership was the third pillar.

430
00:20:57.885 --> 00:20:59.705
And I think that's a really interesting one

431
00:20:59.705 --> 00:21:00.865
because it's a continuous tension.

432
00:21:00.915 --> 00:21:04.305
Again, you want to incorporate as many perspectives

433
00:21:04.405 --> 00:21:07.625
as possible because you want that breadth of knowledge

434
00:21:07.925 --> 00:21:09.145
and you want that ownership.

435
00:21:10.045 --> 00:21:12.505
But then you've got some real challenges of coordination,

436
00:21:12.555 --> 00:21:14.345
which I suppose touches back on the

437
00:21:14.345 --> 00:21:15.745
governance and communication.

438
00:21:16.445 --> 00:21:18.625
You've also got to recognize people are busy.

439
00:21:19.525 --> 00:21:21.745
So some of the sub networks look for people

440
00:21:21.745 --> 00:21:23.625
who could straddle more than one role.

441
00:21:24.485 --> 00:21:27.105
Um, and then Ruefully reflected that

442
00:21:27.105 --> 00:21:28.825
that works only up to a point.

443
00:21:28.845 --> 00:21:30.825
But because they struggle more than one role,

444
00:21:30.825 --> 00:21:31.905
they were very busy people.

445
00:21:33.085 --> 00:21:35.985
And so you've got some really interesting issues there

446
00:21:36.245 --> 00:21:40.905
around equity, around inclusiveness, around

447
00:21:41.465 --> 00:21:45.225
recognizing the associated connections that people had

448
00:21:45.225 --> 00:21:46.345
with other communities.

449
00:21:47.245 --> 00:21:50.105
And then the fourth one was demonstrating value.

450
00:21:51.245 --> 00:21:53.665
You know, I talked about in grand challenges these things

451
00:21:53.935 --> 00:21:55.705
last for years, if not decades.

452
00:21:56.885 --> 00:21:59.025
How do you keep that energy going

453
00:21:59.765 --> 00:22:02.825
and being able to see what's called small wins,

454
00:22:02.915 --> 00:22:05.825
which is the distributed experimentation part

455
00:22:06.045 --> 00:22:09.905
of the grand challenges body of work, these small wins,

456
00:22:10.615 --> 00:22:12.825
it's like continuous improvements.

457
00:22:12.965 --> 00:22:16.065
You are nibbling away, muddling through trying it out.

458
00:22:16.535 --> 00:22:19.425
It's that experimentation, seeing what works.

459
00:22:20.505 --> 00:22:22.105
And so those four pillars provide us

460
00:22:22.105 --> 00:22:25.425
with a very solid foundation of where landscapes

461
00:22:25.425 --> 00:22:28.545
of practice can be used in trying to work

462
00:22:28.655 --> 00:22:30.345
with grand challenges.

463
00:22:30.775 --> 00:22:34.065
Well, so the conclusions probably is, you know, sort

464
00:22:34.065 --> 00:22:36.985
of the field of grand challenges is an incredibly

465
00:22:37.055 --> 00:22:38.425
complex and difficult one.

466
00:22:38.885 --> 00:22:41.665
And one of the other conclusions we came to is

467
00:22:41.665 --> 00:22:45.105
that not all brand challenges are going to be, you know,

468
00:22:45.135 --> 00:22:47.945
sort of amenable to a landscape of practice,

469
00:22:48.605 --> 00:22:49.785
way of working.

470
00:22:50.525 --> 00:22:52.225
You know, one of the nice things about, one

471
00:22:52.225 --> 00:22:54.665
of the particular things about mental health is we had a

472
00:22:54.665 --> 00:22:56.225
very passionate group of people.

473
00:22:56.975 --> 00:22:58.305
They were really committed

474
00:22:59.045 --> 00:23:00.865
to making lives better for people.

475
00:23:01.925 --> 00:23:05.145
We had an existing infrastructure, you know, it wasn't a,

476
00:23:05.305 --> 00:23:08.545
a acute shock like the covid pandemic was.

477
00:23:09.085 --> 00:23:10.745
Um, so that's the second thing.

478
00:23:10.835 --> 00:23:13.225
There was a, a coherence to it.

479
00:23:13.965 --> 00:23:15.665
We had boundaries, if you like.

480
00:23:16.485 --> 00:23:19.115
So, you know, I think one

481
00:23:19.115 --> 00:23:21.315
of our findings conclusions is this is not

482
00:23:21.315 --> 00:23:22.435
gonna work for everyone.

483
00:23:23.175 --> 00:23:27.635
The second conclusion I'd say is really recognizing

484
00:23:27.695 --> 00:23:32.555
how difficult it is to enable people to effectively engage.

485
00:23:33.925 --> 00:23:36.425
And that would lead me onto my implications

486
00:23:36.425 --> 00:23:39.785
because I think in any of these grand challenges,

487
00:23:40.165 --> 00:23:41.505
we need to involve people.

488
00:23:42.325 --> 00:23:44.705
But those four pillars are so

489
00:23:46.285 --> 00:23:47.325
challenging in their own right.

490
00:23:47.955 --> 00:23:50.845
I've been working more recently in areas like the

491
00:23:50.845 --> 00:23:52.925
decommissioning of oil and glass platforms

492
00:23:53.505 --> 00:23:56.405
or use of mining waste and tailings.

493
00:23:56.745 --> 00:23:59.805
In each of these you've got a wealth of different bodies

494
00:23:59.805 --> 00:24:01.565
of knowledge, technical,

495
00:24:02.915 --> 00:24:05.245
political, regulatory.

496
00:24:06.235 --> 00:24:09.165
Each of these is complex in its own right.

497
00:24:09.185 --> 00:24:10.685
And I think one of the conclusions

498
00:24:10.685 --> 00:24:15.085
and implications is finding a way to enable people

499
00:24:15.185 --> 00:24:18.485
to have enough knowledge about the particular problem area

500
00:24:18.625 --> 00:24:23.565
or challenge that they can be informed sufficiently

501
00:24:23.565 --> 00:24:25.685
to be able to move forward in the resolution

502
00:24:25.745 --> 00:24:27.165
and management of that challenge.

503
00:24:27.795 --> 00:24:30.685
Because unless you have a sufficient degree of knowledge,

504
00:24:31.475 --> 00:24:34.525
then you are making what could be argues naive decisions.

505
00:24:35.545 --> 00:24:39.165
So the first thing is a really challenging one of working

506
00:24:39.915 --> 00:24:44.045
with people to enable them to all develop this

507
00:24:44.565 --> 00:24:45.925
baseline level of knowledge,

508
00:24:46.715 --> 00:24:49.635
particularly when you've got participation coming and going.

509
00:24:50.095 --> 00:24:53.355
So a second challenge is getting people, A lot

510
00:24:53.355 --> 00:24:55.555
of people are really passionate about grant challenges,

511
00:24:56.015 --> 00:24:57.675
but they're passionate about a lot of things

512
00:24:58.335 --> 00:25:00.275
and the day job tends to get in the way.

513
00:25:00.975 --> 00:25:03.115
And that was true of our grand challenge in terms

514
00:25:03.215 --> 00:25:04.555
of the mental health network.

515
00:25:05.455 --> 00:25:09.235
So for example, a number of our people that I talked to,

516
00:25:09.235 --> 00:25:12.835
particularly the co-chairs would say, look, I see the value

517
00:25:12.835 --> 00:25:14.915
of the network, I see the value of the sub network,

518
00:25:15.775 --> 00:25:18.875
but I have to trade off coming and working with three

519
00:25:18.875 --> 00:25:20.635
or four hours in say this workshop

520
00:25:20.815 --> 00:25:22.755
or these meetings against looking

521
00:25:22.755 --> 00:25:26.655
after one of my consumers who has a real need for me.

522
00:25:27.195 --> 00:25:30.895
And so there's some real tensions about being present

523
00:25:31.595 --> 00:25:34.135
in the resolution of these grand challenges.

524
00:25:34.955 --> 00:25:38.815
So I think the second implication is how we find ways

525
00:25:38.875 --> 00:25:43.415
of enabling people to be engaged, motivated,

526
00:25:43.455 --> 00:25:45.375
particularly over the long period.

527
00:25:46.825 --> 00:25:49.265
I think once you get 'em going, it gets a bit easier,

528
00:25:49.365 --> 00:25:51.865
but getting that started is incredibly difficult.

529
00:25:52.525 --> 00:25:55.265
So I think some of the, the me the big implications at the

530
00:25:55.265 --> 00:25:57.745
moment and managing the knowledge bases

531
00:25:58.205 --> 00:26:01.625
and managing the people, the, the process bases,

532
00:26:02.105 --> 00:26:06.105
I think technology, has a huge support here.

533
00:26:06.445 --> 00:26:08.785
You know, the very use of things like group support systems,

534
00:26:09.285 --> 00:26:11.625
you know, we couldn't run study without a group support

535
00:26:11.625 --> 00:26:13.625
system without things like strategy finder,

536
00:26:13.705 --> 00:26:16.105
which enables people no matter where they are

537
00:26:16.365 --> 00:26:19.385
to put their contributions in so you can be inclusive.

538
00:26:20.325 --> 00:26:23.745
Uh, it enables us to be able to capture the contributions

539
00:26:24.245 --> 00:26:27.225
and see how they fit together, build that cognitive mapping,

540
00:26:27.225 --> 00:26:31.185
that causal mapping up so that you move from a divergent

541
00:26:31.185 --> 00:26:32.185
to a conversion

542
00:26:32.325 --> 00:26:35.585
and people can begin to see, wow, that's how it works.

543
00:26:35.805 --> 00:26:37.305
Oh, right. You know,

544
00:26:37.305 --> 00:26:39.305
and they're building up their understanding.

545
00:26:39.765 --> 00:26:42.745
So I think that's a really important implication is how

546
00:26:42.745 --> 00:26:46.685
We harness technology effectively, recognizing

547
00:26:46.835 --> 00:26:49.125
that not everybody is going to be amenable

548
00:26:49.585 --> 00:26:50.765
to using technology.

549
00:26:51.515 --> 00:26:54.325
I've worked a little bit in traditional owners,

550
00:26:54.655 --> 00:26:56.645
first Nations arenas

551
00:26:56.865 --> 00:27:00.005
and technology's not the appropriate way to go for them.

552
00:27:00.105 --> 00:27:03.605
So again, context matters and that's another implication.

Understanding Wicked Problems and Grand Challenges

00:00:00 - I think you've probably all heard wicked problems, messy complex problems and a grand challenge has been referred to as a super wicked problem, or it's also been referred to as wicked problems on steroids. So they are very messy, they're very complex. They comprise a number of the wicked problem characteristics, but have a few of their own. So if we look at the wicked problem characteristics, there's loads of different people involved, different stakeholders, all with important
00:00:36 - because we need their knowledge to help us resolve that particular situation. But we also need to get them on board from a more processional point of view. Because if we are gonna make change happen, you know, you can't just tell people what to do, they've got to believe in what they're doing and to move forward with it. So we need to attend to the range of different stakeholders. And of course that makes it difficult because you've got lots of people with lots of very different views, very different beliefs, and sometimes some quite strong beliefs.
00:01:07 - The second characteristic of wicked problem is there's no one right answer. It's not like a complicated problem, it's complex, it's wicked because there isn't a single solution that we sort of need to navigate and negotiate our way to try to resolve that situation. The third, therefore almost as a result of the second, is there's no really clear definition of what the problem is. What the challenge is, it, it's sort of amorphous like an ame where it grows.
00:01:39 - which is as we begin to unpack it, we also begin tosses more to it as we begin to resolve little bits of it, new bits emerge. So it's got a dynamic nature to it. And then finally that dynamic, that complexity just is reflected in the fact that these issues, these concerns are all highly interconnected and that's what makes it messy. You can't just break it down into discreet chunks and work on it because that doesn't come up
00:02:10 - You've got to look at it in the whole. So that's, that's your common characteristics for a wicked problem. And that's certainly true of a grand challenge. But what a grand challenge has above and beyond that is if you like a couple of extra dimensions, one is a temporal dimension, but on the whole grand challenge is encompass a much longer time period and therefore trying to keep the momentum, the energy, the engagement is much more difficult.
00:02:40 - to nibble away at something for weeks, it's hard enough, but for years it's a serious challenge. Secondly is it's a much wider jurisdictional boundary set. You're involving a lot more stakeholders and therefore it's trying to take, well, firstly is it's trying to manage all that knowledge. And secondly, it's trying to find ways of getting the right people included so that you've got that robustness, but also that ownership, which is really fundamental.

Understanding Grand Challenges in Mental Health

00:03:12 - that's what a grand challenge is. A grand challenges will encompass climate change, poverty. These are really big, big problems. Whereas a wicked problem might be something like the building of new, transmission infrastructure where you've still got a lot of stakeholders and different perspectives, different values, not exactly clear where the boundary is, but it is more bounded. You're going to be able to resolve it within a year or maybe two depending on how well you go about managing this wicked problem.
00:03:45 - to resolve it in a year, in two years if you look at them. Some of these are likely to be multi-decade or so. Hopefully that gives you an idea of a grand challenge. Why I did it. Well firstly, I had already an established relationship with people within the mental health arena and one of the new initiatives that was being developed was the instigation of a mental health network. And the idea of the mental health network was to try
00:04:20 - who are involved in mental health. So if you look at the mental health landscape, then you've got psychiatrists, you've got peak bodies that are carer, consumer oriented. You've got the criminal justice system because unfortunately a lot of people with mental health unfortunately get tangled up with the law. You've got occupational therapy, physical therapy, you've got gps, you've got some of the specialist arenas like Alzheimer's, et cetera.
00:04:50 - and find a way of bringing these people together so that we could take this more holistic approach. And they asked if I would get involved in this in working with them. And I was very attracted to that, partly from a sort of personal, I don't know if you wanna call it ethical stance, but I think it's near that's really deserved of some support development, extension, et cetera. But also because I saw it as a grand challenge and
00:05:23 - of working in complex messy problems because I have an operational research background, I could see that potentially having a contribution. The obvious one to start with is situated learning. and that comes outta winger and lava's work. And it's essentially it's taking as its focus the relationship between learning and the social situation in which it occurs. So what we're looking at situated learning is let's say you're a nurse in a hospital,
00:05:56 - but that that is continuously augmented, extended, developed, refined within your community, which is why the situated learning gave way to the concept of communities and practice because your learning with and within the sociopolitical context of your environment. and that's quite nice because it's not just looking at the content, but it's looking at the content within the context.

Engaging Communities in Mental Health Practice

00:06:27 - but also some of the norms, the values, the behaviors, et cetera, beliefs that are involved within that particular realm. It's thinking about it within a participation mean it's usually seen for sides to this content, community context and participation. When you join a community practice, when you engage in situated learning to a degree, you're giving something up. If nothing else, your time, communities
00:06:57 - And where they get tangled up is when management tries to instigate a community of practice because it is a voluntary, organic entity where the pursuit is being a better practitioner, doing a better job. And so situated learning seemed to fit very, very strongly, particularly within the mental health focus, particularly because mental health is such a challenging arena,
00:07:28 - we've got a pretty good idea of how to, how to fix a broken leg. You pretty much use the same process across the board. Mental health is very much more pa, consumer dis consumer driven, patient driven. But they tend to use the word consumer and therefore it has to be much more context dependent. It's not one recipe, it is taking into account the context. It's taking into account all of that manifestation
00:07:58 - after the family, the community that you are within. And so it seemed a very natural theory, body theory theory to work with when we are looking at the mental health and the mental health network, obviously communities of practice leading into the landscape of practice fitted beautifully because we've got a whole range of communities within my landscape of mental health and the mental health network. You've got communities around psychiatry. So there's a Royal College of Psychiatrists
00:08:30 - of formality to it. But you've also got carer consumer bodies, you which are peak bodies, again, they are communities of practice. You've got doctors speaking to one another. So you've got this range of communities of practice. We needed to try and find ways of integrating them into this landscape of practice to help manage this brand challenge and help give that mental health network the greatest chance of success.
00:09:03 - Now you've got some very different knowledge bases, you've got some very different power differentials. You've got some, well you've, everybody pretty much has got a time poverty issue. It's got some challenges about resourcing. And so therefore when that started to lead into method, we were having to think about how we researched this in a way that was going to be really sensitive to those time pressures. Otherwise we weren't going to get anywhere.

Negotiation and Methodology in Mental Health Networks

00:09:34 - One is psis, which is moving beyond judgment. That's purely on a content sort of multi-criteria, abstract objective reality. Two judgment. That's much more about practical judgment. It's about knowing when to do something, how to do something with a group of people. And the final body, which comes out of my work in wicked messy complex problems, is some alongs
00:10:05 - which I'll pick up a bit more. We talk about the methodology and just how do we help people negotiate. So there was a body of theory implicit within the study. It's not remarked on explicitly in the paper around negotiation. We started off, although I had worked in the mental health arena a little bit already, I thought I'd better read a bit more about mental health networks. 'cause up to that point I hadn't spent much time in a network perspective.
00:10:36 - some reading in the area. and there's quite a lot of work in the US predominantly proven and people. So that gave me a foundation. Foundation. From that I began to work up a set of interview questions, recognizing that the maximum time I was going to get would be an hour. I might be lucky for a bit longer, but people I wanted to interview were senior people
00:11:08 - was the makers and shakers in mental health networks across Australia. And that might be people who had you know, psychiatry backgrounds, senior management roles, but also peak body leads. So again, I'm trying to take a plurality and perspective, but those who had an intimate knowledge in the setting up a management of mental health networks. So they're busy people. so we designed the questions
00:11:40 - There were two of us doing the interviews so that we could, you know, sort of compare and contrast our own observations, not just in terms of what was said but how it was said where there was an appetite to answer the question, et cetera. Each of the interviews with the interviewee's permission was recorded, transcribed, and then the next step was to put it end-to-end vivo. And the combination of reading about mental health networks
00:12:11 - of codes, a mixture of AP priori from the literature and emergent from the interviews. And that gave us, if you like, our first draft and we could compare and contrast across the different interviews to get some convergent validity and sort of do that triangulation. That's very much descriptive, it's about what should be. We then went into the second phase, which was running a series of workshops,

Workshops for Navigating Mental Health Sub-Networks

00:12:43 - The mental health network had been subdivided into 10 sub-networks because of its breadth. And the idea was to run a workshop with each subnetwork in such a way that we gave value back to them, otherwise I wouldn't have got them there. But also 'cause I think it's ethical and the right thing to do. And the idea was to focus on helping them navigate their subnetworks direction, their strategic direction. so each subnetwork was to be half, half a day.
00:13:17 - The design, although it was consistent across the 10, was reviewed and minor tweaks made talking to the leads of these sub networks to get buy-in. And we used a group support system to help us in running these workshops. And one of the things about grand challenges is, and if you look at some of the literature around it, there's a body of work that looks at robust actions
00:13:50 - participatory architectures and distributed experimentation. We needed to find ways of enabling our participants to speak, to share that knowledge, but to share that knowledge safely. The notions of psychological safety, because we had such wide power differentials where you've got psychiatrists who have got a wealth of experience and qualifications to back that up compared to
00:14:20 - and consumers, you've got quite a different knowledge base but also perceived power base. And we were really keen to not prioritize one over the other. The group support system, the one we were using is called Strategy finder. What it allows people to do is put their contributions in anonymously so they could be multi vocal. They were done anonymously, so they felt safe. But then we captured the information in such a way
00:14:51 - because they were putting them in themselves, it was in their words and because they were speaking simultaneously, it was productive in terms of time. And so we were getting them to talk about their aspirations, issues and opportunities to help them move forward in their sub network using both this technology that allowed us to enable people to speak, but also a technique that's embedded within the software, which allows us
00:15:24 - Because if we go back to wicked problems and grand challenges, they are highly interconnected in terms of all the different components. The technique, causal or cognitive mapping allows us to build chains of arguments. And what it did is one of the very big benefits, and I I know a question later on is what were the benefits? One of them was helping them understand their own landscape better. They got a much better sense not only of

Understanding Complexity in Mental Health Networks

00:15:54 - as they began to be able to look at it, understand the consequences, understand what the explanations and options were. And so they were for the first time managing their complexity rather than just nibbling at edges and being a little hesitant, they don't open Pandora's box. So we ran these 10 workshops using the strategy finder software, focusing on the strategic future. And that gave us a lot of information with one
00:16:26 - making notes on behaviors, on questions being asked, et cetera. We then did a series of interviews with the people who were co-chair for each of the sub networks to talk to them about the practicalities on the basis of this. Did they find the workshop had taken them forward, had it help them? And what we were seeking to do then is refine those codes so that we could look at the workshops and that second set of interviews through the lens
00:16:59 - And that's what gave rise to the four pillars framework. I suppose the results are twofold. the, there's results for the mental health network and there's results for academia and knowledge practice. Let's start with the main results for the mental health network. If we take it at the relatively micro level, each of the sub networks had gained a much better understanding
00:17:30 - about building a really good understanding of who to go and talk to. One of the expressions that came up frequently was being able to know who's who in the zoo. They got. Not just the knowledge of how to sort of treat and manage consumer, but who to go to and where were the interfaces. And that knowledge was incredibly important to them. It gave them a direction to be able to move towards.
00:18:00 - The mental health network was overseen by two mental health network leads. So they were sort of looking at an overarching perspective of these 10 sub networks. And what the study gave them is the ability to look at what came outta each of those 10 and start to see, okay, well it's best practice here and we can share it over there. so essentially it was looking at the waft and the weave. What were the common problems that was being experienced
00:18:31 - And so it was really beginning to get more coherence at the network level rather than the subnetwork level. And then if I take it up one further step, the study also informed a major review of the mental health network, which was sort of at a more governmental level. So that was sort of, if you like, the practical contribution. If you look at it more from the academic conceptual one, it was the four pillars framework where in essence the pillars surrounding thinking about the

Factors in Navigating Purpose and Governance

00:19:05 - And each of these pillars comprised a number of factors. You know, in terms of some of the real challenges around navigating purpose, because it's a contested space, you need enough clarity of purpose so that everybody's singing from the same hymn sheet, but you also need to have enough fluidity so that everybody can feel a buy-in to that purpose. Because we had a, a wealth of different, I dunno
00:19:36 - I think it probably is purposes, ranging from, you know, best clinical practice to advising policy makers being in advocacy, ensuring everybody had good care. So you are trying to find that balance. So it's determining and legitimizing the purpose. The second one was very much and one of the tensions that was experienced in the governance side, cops, you know, communities of practice are organic
00:20:09 - But what was very clear from the study, when you're looking at landscapes, you need some governance to get some coherency to provide the resources, to enable, things to happen. Whether it's a guide, a set of guidelines, whether it's a webpage, whether it's somebody being able to keep on top of the minutes notes that those being taken. And so there was a really interesting sort of tension between wanting enough structure to enable it
00:20:42 - that community of practice operating effectively. And that tension was played out throughout the study. And that's one of the ones that when we move into landscapes of practice, needs to be born in mind. The membership was the third pillar. And I think that's a really interesting one because it's a continuous tension. Again, you want to incorporate as many perspectives as possible because you want that breadth of knowledge and you want that ownership.
00:21:12 - which I suppose touches back on the governance and communication. You've also got to recognize people are busy. So some of the sub networks look for people who could straddle more than one role. and then Ruefully reflected that that works only up to a point. But because they struggle more than one role, they were very busy people. And so you've got some really interesting issues there around equity, around inclusiveness, around
00:21:45 - with other communities. And then the fourth one was demonstrating value. You know, I talked about in grand challenges these things last for years, if not decades. How do you keep that energy going and being able to see what's called small wins, which is the distributed experimentation part of the grand challenges body of work, these small wins, it's like continuous improvements.

Navigating Challenges in Collaborative Mental Health Work

00:22:16 - It's that experimentation, seeing what works. And so those four pillars provide us with a very solid foundation of where landscapes of practice can be used in trying to work with grand challenges. Well, so the conclusions probably is, you know, sort of the field of grand challenges is an incredibly complex and difficult one. And one of the other conclusions we came to is that not all brand challenges are going to be, you know,
00:22:48 - way of working. You know, one of the nice things about, one of the particular things about mental health is we had a very passionate group of people. They were really committed to making lives better for people. We had an existing infrastructure, you know, it wasn't a, a acute shock like the covid pandemic was. so that's the second thing. There was a, a coherence to it. We had boundaries, if you like.
00:23:19 - of our findings conclusions is this is not gonna work for everyone. The second conclusion I'd say is really recognizing how difficult it is to enable people to effectively engage. And that would lead me onto my implications because I think in any of these grand challenges, we need to involve people. But those four pillars are so challenging in their own right.
00:23:50 - decommissioning of oil and glass platforms or use of mining waste and tailings. In each of these you've got a wealth of different bodies of knowledge, technical, political, regulatory. Each of these is complex in its own right. And I think one of the conclusions and implications is finding a way to enable people to have enough knowledge about the particular problem area
00:24:23 - to be able to move forward in the resolution and management of that challenge. Because unless you have a sufficient degree of knowledge, then you are making what could be argues naive decisions. So the first thing is a really challenging one of working with people to enable them to all develop this baseline level of knowledge, particularly when you've got participation coming and going.
00:24:53 - of people are really passionate about grant challenges, but they're passionate about a lot of things and the day job tends to get in the way. And that was true of our grand challenge in terms of the mental health network. So for example, a number of our people that I talked to, particularly the co-chairs would say, look, I see the value of the network, I see the value of the sub network, but I have to trade off coming and working with three or four hours in say this workshop

Engaging Stakeholders in Complex Challenges

00:25:22 - after one of my consumers who has a real need for me. And so there's some real tensions about being present in the resolution of these grand challenges. So I think the second implication is how we find ways of enabling people to be engaged, motivated, particularly over the long period. I think once you get 'em going, it gets a bit easier, but getting that started is incredibly difficult.
00:25:55 - moment and managing the knowledge bases and managing the people, the, the process bases, I think technology, has a huge support here. You know, the very use of things like group support systems, you know, we couldn't run study without a group support system without things like strategy finder, which enables people no matter where they are to put their contributions in so you can be inclusive. it enables us to be able to capture the contributions
00:26:27 - that causal mapping up so that you move from a divergent to a conversion and people can begin to see, wow, that's how it works. right. You know, and they're building up their understanding. So I think that's a really important implication is how We harness technology effectively, recognizing that not everybody is going to be amenable to using technology. I've worked a little bit in traditional owners,
00:27:00 - and technology's not the appropriate way to go for them. So again, context matters and that's another implication.

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