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Thom Brooks outlines what a new Labour immigration system might look like.

Image courtesy of interviewee. February 20, 2024

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This video video is a detailed reflection by an individual who has experienced immigration processes in the UK as a student and immigrant. The speaker discusses the complexity and difficulties of navigating the immigration system, emphasizing that while the public has strong opinions about immigration, many lack direct experience with it.

The speaker expresses frustration with the lack of clear and updated information regarding immigration laws and requirements, such as citizenship tests, which even many British citizens struggle to pass. They highlight how the immigration system has become increasingly complex and dysfunctional due to reactive and poorly coordinated government policies aimed at addressing public concerns without a cohesive strategy.

The speaker argues for a fair and transparent immigration system that emphasizes fairness, prosperity, respect, and security—ensuring it benefits both immigrants and the greater society. They stress the importance of having clear rules and expectations that all applicants can understand and follow, while also addressing the need for a system that ultimately enhances the country's prosperity and respects its culture and residents.

Through personal anecdotes and discussions with various individuals involved in the immigration process, the speaker underscores the emotional and practical challenges faced by immigrants. They advocate for reforms to create a more integrated, fair, and effective immigration framework that fosters confidence and clarity for all parties involved.

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So I'm from the United States.

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I lived in the Republic of Ireland where I had a,

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where I was a student.

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Uh, and I was, I, I worked briefly,

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and then I came to the UK as a student

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and, and worked as well.

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And one of the things I found out pretty quickly, was

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while people had very strong views about

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how immigration should work

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or does work, they had very little interaction with,

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it in, on, in, in the front line.

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Uh, so when I was going through the system trying

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to find out, for example, how

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to basically stay in the country, how I could, get,

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you know, get a new work visa to stay, permanently,

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it was not easy to find out

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what information I needed to know.

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I discovered that there was a citizenship test I had never

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heard of, before,

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and a citizenship test that has been a, a real fascination

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to me because I found that very few British citizens

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seem able to pass the British citizenship test raising.

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Its its own series of questions as to what was going on.

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And one of those things

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that was particularly interesting about that particular test

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was that one of the problems is a lot

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of the information on it was actually factually untrue,

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that they had not bothered to update the, the handbook

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and the, the facts.

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Uh, so I asked you how many people, how many members

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of parliament there were and, and,

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but it, the number had changed, since,

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since the guide had been, been, been published.

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So I think that there's been this, the cause

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of it is the government,

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successive governments have been trying very quickly

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and short term to try to satisfy public concerns.

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There's a bad story in the news,

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and so they try to respond very quickly to it,

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making a change there, a change, over there.

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But the problem is that none

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of this has been very well joined up.

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There hasn't been any systematic view about

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how these things fit together,

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and it hasn't had that, that kind of focus.

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Um, and so it's led to a system that has become,

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that has unraveled,

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that has become increasingly complex dysfunctional.

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Um, it's been difficult not just for people coming through

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who are immigrants themselves,

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but it's also been really hard for the government to

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make the right decisions.

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Very often they lose cases when they're challenged in court

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or, or they don't even show up to defend the,

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home office, the government, position, which is again,

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again goes to show you that, you know,

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the wheels have come off the bus

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and there's a real need to have a systematic,

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wrapping it all together.

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What is the system for? How should it work?

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One that is not just good for people

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who are thinking about coming to the uk.

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And the essentials would be true for other countries too,

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but also good for the government to do things effectively

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for themselves and have public confidence.

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All the pressure is put on immigrants to figure out

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what they're supposed to do

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and how they're supposed to do it.

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Now, I, I have no problem with immigrants, having,

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a responsibility to find out what's going on to,

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to make sure that they are, that we, me, I,

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following the rules and all the rest of it,

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no problem with that at all.

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Where I do have a problem is when the government seems

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to almost purposefully, either by design

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or by neglect, make it very difficult

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to know exactly what the expectations are.

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What exactly am I supposed to do

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when the only way I can really find out about do I have

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to pass a test or not?

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Is, is, is to look through, more than a dozen pages

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of an application form.

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Uh, then something has gone very badly wrong for a book

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that, you know, you can't find in every shop,

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and so and so forth.

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Something is really, is a, is a problem with,

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with that right there.

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And plus, you know, when you have this constant,

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tidal wave of, of arguments about, we're doing this,

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we're doing that, we're having more restrictions,

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we're being tough, we're doing, you know, all these things.

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But then there's all these kind of caveats.

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Things aren't really quite true.

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They haven't actually, done it in practice.

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It's, it, it makes it into a, a real mess.

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And something I think is kind of unique about,

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immigration, that there's, there's so many, kind

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of government plans, announced that, again,

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don't join up often don't have much evidence behind it.

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And many of it isn't realized,

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or if it is, it, it's done, halfheartedly.

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And so what interested me was, as an academic professor

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of, of law and government, that I was interested in,

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in the law as someone who was, with a,

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I have a philosophy background, interested, taking

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that wider, picture of things as well of the,

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as the law coming from another country.

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So, you know, knowing something about

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how different systems, work

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and see if there's something there that might be helpful.

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And then finally, that process of experiencing it myself,

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there is something very different about the study of a,

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of a topic like immigration.

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Uh, it's not, you know, the, the,

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the book will say one thing.

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There's something very different.

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Like I did sitting in a, I went to immigration centers

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to be, to be processed, to be interviewed, by,

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by border agents who were behind a thick pane of glass.

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Um, well sat next to someone in an open room,

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and a gentleman next to me.

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And I heard him having his application rejected

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while I'm being, you know,

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asked questions about my own, status.

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And, you know, can we go through the form with you?

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It's a very different experience.

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And of course, part of that is not just the emotional,

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experience of, of, of kind of being there

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where things are going perfectly fine for me,

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but not very well, for others.

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But where some of this trades on rules

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or guidance that isn't easily accessible,

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isn't widely known, that, you know,

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seems to catch out.

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The guy who was sat right next to me,

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at a processing center, and, you know,

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and if I hadn't gone to others who had been immigrants

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and had experienced things

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and what they'd done, you know, I might not have, you know,

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I might, things might have been differently,

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worked out differently for me, as well.

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So that being an immigrant, you know, adds something,

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being an, an expert in immigration law from the

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textbook as another dimension.

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And I think that is something

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that has made my insights different

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and given me a different, perspective on

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how things work here broadly.

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The, the, the big idea about this was, was thinking about

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how any of this should work.

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And one thing that that came at every, anytime I,

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I've done hundreds of interviews with people who were both,

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British citizens, who had been British all their life,

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people who were immigrants, like me, who had gone

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through the process of becoming British, people who were,

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still in the process, hadn't become British yet,

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but were hoping to, and many others who, who were here

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and were working or studying or doing other things,

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but were not interested in, becoming British themselves.

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This included people who were here for work, people who came

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for study, people who came through a family connection,

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their spouse or, something else, or,

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and also I spoke to, refugees, some who wanted

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to stay and some who, who didn't.

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Um, and one of the things that was true for everyone,

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no matter what their politics, whether they're immigrant

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or whether they're not an immigrant,

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they thought that it was important.

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System was fair, the system,

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that system should be a system of fair play.

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That if we're going to have restrictions, if we're going

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to say that there's rules, they ought not to be secret.

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If it's important to keep certain people up,

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you don't want murderers, you don't want mass murderers to,

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to, be, to immigrate into the country.

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If that's, the rule that people want to have, then

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to have that explicit, have it very clear,

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not make it a secret and,

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and build things around something like that

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where we have got clear lines about what we expect

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and what we want to do.

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So, fairness. Now fairness sounds really nice.

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You know, who wants an unfair system?

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Who wants their government to treat people unfairly?

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Uh, nobody. And of course,

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how we treat immigrants is also important, right?

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Because the people we treat as immigrants aren't just folks

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who might be here just for a day or two.

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They might be like me, I've been here over 20 years.

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Uh, so there might be folks who, who stay long term,

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who become fellow citizens, who can vote, who can run

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for office, and, and, and, and, and, and so

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and so, so it's pretty important to kind

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of think this through.

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And so broadly, the, the, the, what I,

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what I thought would be helpful on fairness to kind

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of give it a bit more, meat,

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give it a bit more content about what,

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what exactly we're looking for was the centered

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around these ideas of prosperity, respect, and security.

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The idea that what do we want at, out

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of a fair immigration system?

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A fair immigration ought to leave a country better off

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and not worse off.

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And prosperity meant something,

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not necessarily just economically, that there's,

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you know, economic value that immigrants can bring.

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Also cultural value that, that immigrants can bring.

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So it's not just about, money letting in folks

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who have some jobs and not, not other jobs,

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but that making, helping a country be prosperous, ought

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to be something that we should have,

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on the radar be something to be having a look at.

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The second is respect, both respect for the people

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who would want to, to come,

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that we should be treating others with respect,

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but also treating ourselves the local population,

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with respect in terms of language, culture

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and other things that are in a country already.

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Um, and, and that these things go hand in hand.

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Integration of people is a two-way street.

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It's not a, a one-way street.

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Every country is, has changed over time.

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And, and, and that's inevitable.

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You can ask, you know, ask ancient Rome,

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everything has changed,

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but, you know, there's, there's, there's,

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there's better ways of doing it.

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And thinking about respect

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and what that means,

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in concrete ways is I think, important.

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And the final thing is,

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and this is not in any priority,

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I'm not thinking about price prosperity above other things,

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but the, but addition to prosperity

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and respect, security, you know, you know,

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that passing the border is, is, you know,

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involves border security.

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And having, you know, it's important

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to think about an immigration system that made us secure,

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that did give protections that, you know, that

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where there's rules that they're enforced,

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and if people, haven't followed them,

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that these things are enforced.

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And thinking about that, that, that, that piece is as well,

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these are all parts of what a fair immigration system is.

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Um, and, and, and it would be unfair

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that if you had a system that led a country being

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Less prosperous, that led to disrespect for,

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existing citizens or prospective new citizens,

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and also one that put the security of a country at risk,

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that if you're gonna develop a system, one,

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that you can have public confidence behind that,

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that these are three principles, prosperity,

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respect, security, that can create a fair system,

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that will have competence.

Challenges of Immigration Systems Explained

00:00:00 - So I'm from the United States. I lived in the Republic of Ireland where I had a, where I was a student. and I was, I, I worked briefly, and then I came to the UK as a student and, and worked as well. And one of the things I found out pretty quickly, was while people had very strong views about how immigration should work or does work, they had very little interaction with, it in, on, in, in the front line.
00:00:34 - to find out, for example, how to basically stay in the country, how I could, get, you know, get a new work visa to stay, permanently, it was not easy to find out what information I needed to know. I discovered that there was a citizenship test I had never heard of, before, and a citizenship test that has been a, a real fascination to me because I found that very few British citizens
00:01:04 - Its its own series of questions as to what was going on. And one of those things that was particularly interesting about that particular test was that one of the problems is a lot of the information on it was actually factually untrue, that they had not bothered to update the, the handbook and the, the facts. so I asked you how many people, how many members of parliament there were and, and,
00:01:34 - since the guide had been, been, been published. So I think that there's been this, the cause of it is the government, successive governments have been trying very quickly and short term to try to satisfy public concerns. There's a bad story in the news, and so they try to respond very quickly to it, making a change there, a change, over there. But the problem is that none of this has been very well joined up. There hasn't been any systematic view about
00:02:05 - and it hasn't had that, that kind of focus. and so it's led to a system that has become, that has unraveled, that has become increasingly complex dysfunctional. it's been difficult not just for people coming through who are immigrants themselves, but it's also been really hard for the government to make the right decisions. Very often they lose cases when they're challenged in court or, or they don't even show up to defend the,
00:02:38 - again goes to show you that, you know, the wheels have come off the bus and there's a real need to have a systematic, wrapping it all together. What is the system for? How should it work? One that is not just good for people who are thinking about coming to the uk. And the essentials would be true for other countries too, but also good for the government to do things effectively for themselves and have public confidence.

Challenges of Immigration Processes and Government Expectation

00:03:11 - what they're supposed to do and how they're supposed to do it. Now, I, I have no problem with immigrants, having, a responsibility to find out what's going on to, to make sure that they are, that we, me, I, following the rules and all the rest of it, no problem with that at all. Where I do have a problem is when the government seems to almost purposefully, either by design
00:03:44 - to know exactly what the expectations are. What exactly am I supposed to do when the only way I can really find out about do I have to pass a test or not? Is, is, is to look through, more than a dozen pages of an application form. then something has gone very badly wrong for a book that, you know, you can't find in every shop, and so and so forth.
00:04:14 - with that right there. And plus, you know, when you have this constant, tidal wave of, of arguments about, we're doing this, we're doing that, we're having more restrictions, we're being tough, we're doing, you know, all these things. But then there's all these kind of caveats. Things aren't really quite true. They haven't actually, done it in practice. It's, it, it makes it into a, a real mess.
00:04:46 - immigration, that there's, there's so many, kind of government plans, announced that, again, don't join up often don't have much evidence behind it. And many of it isn't realized, or if it is, it, it's done, halfheartedly. And so what interested me was, as an academic professor of, of law and government, that I was interested in, in the law as someone who was, with a,
00:05:17 - that wider, picture of things as well of the, as the law coming from another country. So, you know, knowing something about how different systems, work and see if there's something there that might be helpful. And then finally, that process of experiencing it myself, there is something very different about the study of a, of a topic like immigration. it's not, you know, the, the, the book will say one thing. There's something very different.
00:05:50 - to be, to be processed, to be interviewed, by, by border agents who were behind a thick pane of glass. well sat next to someone in an open room, and a gentleman next to me. And I heard him having his application rejected while I'm being, you know, asked questions about my own, status. And, you know, can we go through the form with you? It's a very different experience. And of course, part of that is not just the emotional,

Immigrant Experiences and Systemic Fairness

00:06:22 - where things are going perfectly fine for me, but not very well, for others. But where some of this trades on rules or guidance that isn't easily accessible, isn't widely known, that, you know, seems to catch out. The guy who was sat right next to me, at a processing center, and, you know, and if I hadn't gone to others who had been immigrants
00:06:51 - and what they'd done, you know, I might not have, you know, I might, things might have been differently, worked out differently for me, as well. So that being an immigrant, you know, adds something, being an, an expert in immigration law from the textbook as another dimension. And I think that is something that has made my insights different and given me a different, perspective on how things work here broadly. The, the, the big idea about this was, was thinking about
00:07:22 - And one thing that that came at every, anytime I, I've done hundreds of interviews with people who were both, British citizens, who had been British all their life, people who were immigrants, like me, who had gone through the process of becoming British, people who were, still in the process, hadn't become British yet, but were hoping to, and many others who, who were here and were working or studying or doing other things, but were not interested in, becoming British themselves.
00:07:57 - for study, people who came through a family connection, their spouse or, something else, or, and also I spoke to, refugees, some who wanted to stay and some who, who didn't. and one of the things that was true for everyone, no matter what their politics, whether they're immigrant or whether they're not an immigrant, they thought that it was important. System was fair, the system, that system should be a system of fair play.
00:08:29 - to say that there's rules, they ought not to be secret. If it's important to keep certain people up, you don't want murderers, you don't want mass murderers to, to, be, to immigrate into the country. If that's, the rule that people want to have, then to have that explicit, have it very clear, not make it a secret and, and build things around something like that where we have got clear lines about what we expect and what we want to do. So, fairness. Now fairness sounds really nice.
00:09:02 - Who wants their government to treat people unfairly? nobody. And of course, how we treat immigrants is also important, right? Because the people we treat as immigrants aren't just folks who might be here just for a day or two. They might be like me, I've been here over 20 years. so there might be folks who, who stay long term, who become fellow citizens, who can vote, who can run for office, and, and, and, and, and, and so and so, so it's pretty important to kind

Fair Immigration: Prosperity, Respect, and Security

00:09:33 - And so broadly, the, the, the, what I, what I thought would be helpful on fairness to kind of give it a bit more, meat, give it a bit more content about what, what exactly we're looking for was the centered around these ideas of prosperity, respect, and security. The idea that what do we want at, out of a fair immigration system? A fair immigration ought to leave a country better off and not worse off. And prosperity meant something, not necessarily just economically, that there's,
00:10:06 - Also cultural value that, that immigrants can bring. So it's not just about, money letting in folks who have some jobs and not, not other jobs, but that making, helping a country be prosperous, ought to be something that we should have, on the radar be something to be having a look at. The second is respect, both respect for the people who would want to, to come, that we should be treating others with respect,
00:10:39 - with respect in terms of language, culture and other things that are in a country already. and, and that these things go hand in hand. Integration of people is a two-way street. It's not a, a one-way street. Every country is, has changed over time. And, and, and that's inevitable. You can ask, you know, ask ancient Rome, everything has changed, but, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's better ways of doing it. And thinking about respect
00:11:07 - in concrete ways is I think, important. And the final thing is, and this is not in any priority, I'm not thinking about price prosperity above other things, but the, but addition to prosperity and respect, security, you know, you know, that passing the border is, is, you know, involves border security. And having, you know, it's important to think about an immigration system that made us secure, that did give protections that, you know, that where there's rules that they're enforced,
00:11:38 - that these things are enforced. And thinking about that, that, that, that piece is as well, these are all parts of what a fair immigration system is. and, and, and it would be unfair that if you had a system that led a country being Less prosperous, that led to disrespect for, existing citizens or prospective new citizens, and also one that put the security of a country at risk, that if you're gonna develop a system, one, that you can have public confidence behind that,
00:12:15 - respect, security, that can create a fair system, that will have competence.

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