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Putting learners at the heart of the feedback process

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Dylan Wiliam discusses research on feedback, its impact on task performance, peer feedback and why we need to provide feedback that improves the learner, and not only the work they submit for assessment.

Image courtesy of interviewee. November 14, 2023

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This video discusses the concept of feedback, tracing its historical origins and its implications in both engineering and psychology. It highlights Norbert Wiener’s role during World War II in developing feedback mechanisms for anti-aircraft systems, leading to the feedback loop concept. The distinction between feedback in engineering (where it influences future actions) and in psychology (often simply informational) is emphasized.

Research by Kluger and DeNisi is cited, showing that while feedback generally improves performance, it can also hinder it in a significant percentage of cases. This video dichotomy raises concerns about the effectiveness of feedback strategies in educational contexts, where feedback should focus on enhancing the learner's understanding rather than just improving the output.

This video further explores the importance of timing and type of feedback, suggesting that delayed or evaluative feedback can sometimes be more beneficial than immediate, purely positive, or descriptive feedback. The relationship between the teacher and student, as well as the emotional context surrounding feedback, plays a crucial role in how feedback is received and acted upon.

It suggests that feedback should aim to empower students to take responsibility for their learning, moving towards self-assessment and self-regulation. This video underscores that effective feedback must foster trust and support, ultimately helping students recognize that effort can lead to improvement. Additionally, peer and self-assessment are addressed as tools for fostering learner independence, but caution is advised regarding their accuracy and the quality of feedback exchanged.

In conclusion, the essence of meaningful feedback lies in its application and the context within which it is delivered, emphasizing the need for nurturing relationships that motivate and guide students toward self-enhancement in their learning journeys.

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Here are five key points from the video on feedback:

1. **Historical Convideo of Feedback**: The term "feedback" originated from engineering convideos, particularly from Norbert Wiener during World War II when he worked on anti-aircraft systems. He proposed the idea of using information about past performance (like the explosion of a shell) to improve future performance, thus establishing the concept of a feedback loop.

2. **Divergent Definitions in Psychology and Engineering**: In psychology, feedback is often defined broadly as any information to individuals about their performance. However, this contrasts with engineers who view feedback as actionable information that should lead to performance adjustments (e.g., a thermostat heating the room based on temperature readings).

3. **Research Findings on Feedback Effectiveness**: A significant review by Kluger and DeNisi found that while feedback generally improves performance, it may also worsen it in about 38% of cases. This highlights the complexity of feedback effects and warns against assuming that more feedback is always beneficial.

4. **Dependence on Feedback**: Feedback can lead to increased dependency, where students rely on external validation rather than developing internal motivation and self-regulation. Effective feedback should empower learners rather than just improving their immediate performance on tasks.

5. **Importance of Relationships and Convideo**: The effectiveness of feedback is moderated by the relationship between the student and the teacher and the convideo in which feedback is given. Understanding student beliefs about their abilities and fostering a supportive environment can enhance the constructive use of feedback. Teachers should aim to minimize emotional reactions to feedback to help students engage meaningfully with the improvement suggestions.

Overall, the discourse emphasizes the nuanced nature of feedback in educational settings and the importance of implementing it thoughtfully to truly benefit learners.

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Here are some key quotes from the video about feedback:

1. **Origin of Feedback:**
- “The first mention of feedback is in... mechanics of production... but I think the first use in what we think of feedback today was Norbert Wiener... developing range finders for anti-aircraft guns.”

2. **Feedback Loop Concept:**
- “The idea is the information collected about the explosion of the shell is used to improve the next time you fire it.”

3. **Challenges in Definitions:**
- “Psychologists define feedback as any information fed back to an individual about their task performance... that's not something engineers will recognize.”

4. **Effectiveness of Feedback:**
- “On average feedback did improve performance, but in 38% of the cases... feedback actually made things worse.”

5. **Risks of Feedback:**
- “In almost two out of every five cases, you're doing better off shutting up than giving the feedback.”

6. **Relationship to Performance:**
- “Even if feedback does make things better, it's not necessarily a good thing if the feedback makes the students more dependent on the feedback.”

7. **Focus on Learning:**
- “Too often feedback is about improving the work rather than improving the learner.”

8. **Usefulness of Feedback:**
- “Feedback is basically one-to-one tuition... we have to close the loop.”

9. **Emotional Response to Feedback:**
- “It's actually very difficult to use feedback intelligently if that emotion is triggered.”

10. **Impact of Mindset:**
- “If students believe that smart is not something you just are, but something you can get... then feedback is welcome.”

11. **Peer Assessment Considerations:**
- “If you choose to use peer assessment as a way of helping students improve, then you are still responsible for the quality of feedback they give each other.”

12. **Self-Assessment Goals:**
- “The goal of feedback is to empower learners to take more responsibility for their own learning.”

These quotes encapsulate the discussion about the nature of feedback, its effectiveness, the emotional dynamics involved, and the importance of fostering a growth mindset in learners.

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Here are some articles that discuss similar topics related to feedback, its effectiveness in educational convideos, and psychological implications:

1. **"The Power of Feedback" by Hattie and Timperley (2007)** - This article reviews how feedback impacts student learning and the importance of feedback in the learning process, including when it is most effective.

2. **"Feedback That Fits" by Mark Del Maschio, Ed.D. (2018)** - This article explores why different types of feedback can have varying effects on student motivation and performance, emphasizing the need to tailor feedback to individual learners.

3. **"The Role of Feedback in Learning: A Review of the Literature" by Linda J. Hargreaves (2020)** - This comprehensive literature review discusses various research studies on feedback and how it influences educational outcomes, emphasizing the balance between constructive criticism and students' emotional responses.

4. **"Evaluative Feedback: A Double-Edged Sword" by Erik B. H. Korthagen et al. (2018)** - This article examines how evaluative feedback can sometimes hinder learning and suggests strategies for giving feedback that fosters a growth mindset.

5. **"Self-Regulated Learning: Theory, Research, and Practice" by Barry J. Zimmerman (2002)** - This article discusses the concept of self-regulation in learning, including how feedback contributes to students' ability to manage their own learning effectively.

6. **"Peer Feedback in the Classroom: The Importance of Training and Communication" by K. P. Chang & J. Y. V. Wang (2017)** - This article addresses the benefits and challenges of peer feedback, suggesting that teacher oversight is crucial for maximizing its effectiveness.

7. **"The Dunning-Kruger Effect: Implications for Student Learning" by Justin Kruger and David Dunning (1999)** - The original study on the Dunning-Kruger effect, which can help educators understand the confidence levels of students and how this may impact the peer feedback process.

8. **"The Impact of Immediate vs. Delayed Feedback on Learning" by Robert Bjork (1999)** - This research explores whether immediate or delayed feedback is more effective in educational settings, providing insights into the psychological aspects of feedback reception.

9. **"Constructive Feedback: Strategies for Implementation" by Elizabeth Chao (2019)** - Discusses practical strategies for educators to provide feedback that fosters learning and minimizes emotional distress for students.

10. **"Growth Mindset and Educational Outcomes: A Meta-Analysis" by Dweck et al. (2014)** - This meta-analysis examines how fostering a growth mindset in students can change the way they respond to feedback and how it affects their academic performance.

These articles collectively support the notion that feedback in educational convideos can be complex and requires thoughtful implementation to maximize its benefits for student learning and performance.

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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The first mention of feedback is in, me mechanics

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of production, with things like shuttles and,

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and me mechanical applications.

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But I think the first use in what we think of feedback today

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was Norbert Wiener, who during the second World War,

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was developing range finders for anti-aircraft, guns.

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And there the important thing is that your chances

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of hitting, an aircraft directly are very small.

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So what you do is you actually put a timer on the shell so

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that it explodes in the vicinity of the airplane

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and that gives you much more chance of actually causing,

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damage to that airplane.

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And so the crucial thing was he realized that

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what you needed to do was to have a system

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whereby you took into account where the shell exploded

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and you fed that back to make your next shot, both in terms

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of distance

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and in terms of, of accuracy,

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more likely to hit the airplane.

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So that that became the idea of a feedback loop.

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The idea is the information collected about the explosion

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of the, of the shell is used

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to improve the next time you fire it.

01:10.905 --> 01:12.205
So he used that term feedback

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because he was talking about the direction

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of information flow back to the system.

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The problem was that when this was, picked up

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by psychology in the sixties

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and seventies, psychologists def

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define feedback as any information fed back to

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an individual about their task performance.

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So your typing speed is 45 words per minute would be counted

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as feedback by psychologists.

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That's not something engineers will recognize

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'cause to an engineer unless the information is actually

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used like in the room thermostat, not just to tell you

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that the room is too cold, but then also to heat it.

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They wouldn't regard it as feedback.

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And so that's where I think the, the problem started is

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that in psychology, the term feedback was used

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to describe any process

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that we tell students about where they are.

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And just telling a student, you know, you need to do better

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or C minus or 43, I don't think is very helpful,

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but it still does count as feedback according

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to many definitions that are used in psychology today.

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The answer is it depends

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and it's one of those annoying psychology answers.

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The most important result I think in the last 50 years

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was the work of two psychologists at Rutgers University

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at Kluger and Danisi

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who reviewed about 3000 research

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reports on the effects of feedback.

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They went back to 1905

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and they found that on average feedback did improve

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performance, but in 38% of the cases

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that they actually found were trustworthy, the reliable

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research reports in 38% feedback actually made things worse.

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In almost two out of every five cases,

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you're doing better off shutting

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up than giving the feedback.

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And so this is why it's very dangerous

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to say that feedback has an

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Average effect size

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because it could be

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that you actually put into place

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the feedback that makes things worse.

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So we don't necessarily want more feedback.

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The other point that Kluger and Denise made,

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which people still ignore even though their article is

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coming up for its 30th anniversary, is they said,

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even if the feedback does make things better,

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it's not necessarily a good thing

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if the feedback makes the students

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more dependent on the feedback.

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So you can actually give feedback

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that makes students performance better,

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but it needs to be maintained to maintain that improvement.

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And so what they showed, what they argued was we need

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to be looking at what kinds

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of things does it prompt in the recipient.

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And my biggest concern about feedback is

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that too often feedback is about improving the work rather

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than improving the learner.

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How do you get a better grade

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or score on this piece of work?

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If the feedback is too detailed?

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It'll tell the student exactly what they need to do

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to get better, grades or scores,

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but it doesn't necessarily help them learn

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'cause the feedback is telling them what

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to do to get a better grade.

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The difficulty here is that people read books on feedback

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for teachers and they tell

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that feedback should be immediate, that it should be

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positive, that it should be

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descriptive rather than evaluative.

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And all those things are, you know, often good ideas,

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but the research doesn't support such clear conclusions.

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So there's quite a lot of research

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that shows particularly in higher education

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that delayed feedback can be more

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effective than immediate feedback.

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The reasons aren't that clear yet, but my hunch is it's

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because delayed feedback acts as a kind

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of delayed res study.

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Students are coming back to this when they

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actually had forgotten about it.

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And the research of Robert Bjork

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and others on memory shows

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that when you actually uddy something

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that you did a while ago, that UD actually has more

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of impact when you actually find it hard

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to remember what you did the previous time.

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So the fact is, delayed feedback can be more effective.

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The fact is that evaluative feedback can be very effective.

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Telling a student at the rate you are going,

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you're not gonna get the grade

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that you want might be helpful.

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The problem is you can't really separate out all those

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variables from the social situation in which

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the feedback takes place.

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I say to teachers, if your feedback is getting you more of

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what you want from your students, it's good feedback.

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If it's getting you less of what you

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want, it's bad feedback.

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And sometimes, you know, if you have good relationship

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with a student, you can say you can do better than this.

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This is not your best work.

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And people will throw up their hands and heart

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and say, you can't give feedback like that.

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But in a particular relationship, in a particular context,

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that might be the most effective thing.

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'cause you know, that student didn't try,

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they just phoned it in.

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They were trying it on waiting for you

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to give them some feedback about how to get a better grade

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and you just call them on it Too often we give students

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feedback, but we don't make sure that it's used.

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Feedback is basically one-to-one tuition, I don't know, know

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of anybody who can give feedback on two

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pieces of work at the same time.

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And yet we don't take advantage of that.

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So in my view, we have to close the loop.

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Going back to Norwood Wiener's point from the 1940s,

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let's close the loop of feedback.

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Let's give our students time in class in the sessions

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to respond to our feedback.

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If it's worthwhile taking time

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to write individual comments on students' work,

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it's worthwhile taking class time for them to respond.

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The crucial thing about feedback is

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what students do with it.

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And that's moderated by a whole range of factors,

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including the relationship.

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Do they trust the person who give them the feedback?

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Do they think they know what they're talking about?

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But the trouble is that feedback is often given in a context

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where you really wanna do well.

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You want to grade, you want a particular kind of outcome.

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And so it's inevitable

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that there will be an emotional aspect to any feedback,

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even if it's qualitative, even if just comments.

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If you think the piece of work is great

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and somebody tells you it's not very good,

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your first reaction is either, you know,

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I'm not as good as I thought I was.

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Or the person giving

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me feedback doesn't know what they're talking about.

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So it's actually very difficult

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to use feedback intelligently if that emotion is triggered.

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So in my view, although emotions are an inevitable part

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of this, the teacher's job is to try

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to minimize the emotional reaction to feedback

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and to maximize the engagement, the cognitive engagement

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with what the feedback is saying

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about what they need to do to improve.

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There's a big debate about whether grades are harmful

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and there are some studies that show

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that when you give students grades

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and comments at the same time,

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the first thing they look at do is look at the grades.

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And the second thing they do is look at

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somebody else's grade, what'd you get?

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So it's often quite hard

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to get the students to look at the comments.

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Some people say, well, why not give the comments today

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and give the grade tomorrow at least for 24 hours.

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They're gonna be reading the comments, presumably

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to find out what the, the grade is gonna be.

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But at least they're reading the comments.

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But my view is, well, why not give them a week

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to resubmit the piece of work in the light of the comments

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and then give them a grade?

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So I don't think the evidence supports strong

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conclusions like grades are harmful.

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I think what the research does support is this idea

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that it's very hard to tell students where they are

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and how to get better at the same time.

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So do one or the other.

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If the students are allowed to resubmit for extra credit

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or a higher grade,

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then give them advice about how to do that.

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But don't make it too specific,

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otherwise you're improving the work and not the learner.

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But at the end of the course, just give them a grade

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and don't bother justifying it.

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It's wa it's a waste of time.

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And of course in higher education, that's what we see.

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We see the most of the comments

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that are being given on grade, on student work.

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It's not really designed to help the student,

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it's the teacher justifying the grade they awarded.

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And that's quite helpful for audit purposes.

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It's not particularly helpful for learning purposes.

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The only good feedback is that which is used by learners.

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And so what people like Naomi Winston have done is

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to look at how do we get students ready

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to receive the feedback?

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And I think although there's a big debate about

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how big these effects are, I think there's evidence

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that having what Carol Dweck calls a growth

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mindset can be helpful.

09:16.905 --> 09:19.605
Now, I don't wanna get into the debate about whether

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this is a real thing or not.

09:21.265 --> 09:22.445
So I'm gonna sidestep this.

09:22.705 --> 09:24.965
I'm gonna say as long as students believe

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that smart is not something you just are,

09:26.985 --> 09:28.445
but smart is something you can get,

09:29.295 --> 09:33.185
that effort produces ability, then feedback is welcome

09:33.915 --> 09:35.325
because you know, you can get smarter

09:35.745 --> 09:37.685
and the feedback tells you how to get smarter quicker.

09:38.905 --> 09:40.965
If you believe that you only have a certain amount

09:40.965 --> 09:42.005
of ability that is fixed,

09:42.765 --> 09:44.695
then feedback is potentially unwelcome.

09:44.855 --> 09:46.135
'cause it might show you you're not as smart

09:46.135 --> 09:49.335
as you thought you were, and if the feedback is not the

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feedback you want, you might reject the feedback by saying

09:51.775 --> 09:53.175
that the person doesn't know what they're talking about.

09:53.835 --> 09:55.655
Or you might conclude that you're not really good at this

09:55.655 --> 09:57.255
subject and you lower your aspirations.

09:58.355 --> 10:00.775
So I think this idea that effort creates ability

10:01.995 --> 10:04.415
is really at the heart of helping students make sense

10:04.415 --> 10:07.575
of feedback because then they know they can get smarter

10:08.275 --> 10:09.455
and attending to the feedback

10:09.575 --> 10:10.775
will help you get smarter quicker.

10:11.855 --> 10:14.195
And ultimately it depends on relationships

10:14.505 --> 10:17.195
because every teacher knows that the same feedback given

10:17.215 --> 10:19.235
to one student will make that student try harder.

10:19.855 --> 10:21.435
And to a diff very similar student

10:22.375 --> 10:23.665
will make that other student give up.

10:24.085 --> 10:26.745
So you have to know when to push and now when to back off

10:27.685 --> 10:29.825
and your students have to believe in you that you know

10:29.825 --> 10:31.705
what you're talking about and you have their

10:31.705 --> 10:32.745
best interests at heart.

10:33.605 --> 10:35.985
So the messy conclusion from all this research

10:36.995 --> 10:38.535
is it's about relationships.

10:38.835 --> 10:39.975
And we can't package that.

10:40.035 --> 10:43.175
We can't tell teachers exactly what to do,

10:43.435 --> 10:45.855
but it's a very nice piece of work by David Jager

10:45.855 --> 10:49.375
and his colleagues where they just give half of a group

10:49.375 --> 10:53.295
of students, a, a post-it note to go

10:53.295 --> 10:55.775
with their feedback.

10:56.075 --> 10:57.375
So all the students got feedback,

10:57.485 --> 10:59.015
half the students got a post-IT note

10:59.015 --> 11:00.575
saying, I've given you feedback.

11:00.575 --> 11:01.735
So you have, I've given you comments.

11:01.735 --> 11:04.975
So you have feedback on your paper. Half the students got a

11:04.975 --> 11:08.215
post-it note that said, I've given you critical feedback on

11:08.215 --> 11:10.495
this work because I have very high standards

11:10.835 --> 11:12.095
and I know you can reach them.

11:13.545 --> 11:16.315
So the only difference was the post-IT note

11:16.465 --> 11:17.635
that came with the feedback.

11:18.695 --> 11:20.665
They then followed these students through,

11:21.395 --> 11:23.105
these were eighth grade students.

11:23.405 --> 11:26.935
So year nine in the UK context, they were more likely

11:27.595 --> 11:32.115
to enroll in a college at the end, at the age of 18,

11:32.505 --> 11:35.675
just a post-it note improve their educational achievement,

11:35.805 --> 11:37.715
their attitudes and trust towards school.

11:38.415 --> 11:40.515
It reduced the disciplinary problems in the following years

11:40.935 --> 11:42.955
and increased enrollment in college.

11:43.695 --> 11:47.355
So to me, this is evidence, this is quite low hanging fruit.

11:48.695 --> 11:50.075
We just need our students to understand,

11:50.415 --> 11:52.795
I'm giving you feedback because I care about you.

11:53.505 --> 11:55.285
I'm not doing it to be mean. I'm doing it

11:55.285 --> 11:59.435
because I want you to improve to reach the highest levels

11:59.435 --> 12:00.595
of achievement that you're capable of.

12:01.385 --> 12:04.845
So the difficulty with peer assessment is that most

12:04.845 --> 12:08.485
of the research has focused on whether peers can give each

12:08.485 --> 12:11.405
other grades that are as accurate as teachers grades.

12:12.185 --> 12:14.645
And that's quite a useful line of research.

12:14.665 --> 12:18.245
And the evidence is that they're not too bad For me,

12:18.305 --> 12:21.845
the more important aspect is whether peers can give each

12:21.845 --> 12:23.245
other feedback that is useful

12:23.465 --> 12:25.565
to the recipient in improving their learning.

12:26.105 --> 12:27.165
And the evidence is that they can.

12:28.305 --> 12:30.525
But there's a real problem here, which is

12:30.525 --> 12:32.085
that peer assessment is often inaccurate.

12:33.115 --> 12:36.455
Now there's a phenomenon called the Dunning Kruger effect.

12:37.085 --> 12:39.655
There's some debate about how real in effect this is,

12:39.915 --> 12:43.255
but it does appear that the lower levels of achievement

12:43.285 --> 12:45.855
that you have, the more likely you are to be confident

12:45.855 --> 12:47.455
that you're correct when you're actually incorrect.

12:48.485 --> 12:49.735
Well, whether that's true

12:49.755 --> 12:53.255
or not, we definitely see students who are confident

12:53.255 --> 12:56.345
that they know something, giving confident advice

12:56.345 --> 12:58.465
to their peers, which is actually inaccurate.

12:59.565 --> 13:03.385
So I say to teachers, if you choose to use peer assessment

13:03.845 --> 13:07.825
as a way of helping students improve,

13:08.335 --> 13:10.665
then you are still responsible for the quality

13:10.765 --> 13:11.985
of feedback they give each other.

13:12.165 --> 13:14.025
You need to be monitoring those conversations in your

13:14.025 --> 13:15.745
classroom or online

13:16.015 --> 13:17.785
because there's a real danger

13:17.785 --> 13:19.505
that they will give each other misleading information.

13:20.495 --> 13:22.755
As for peer as, as sorry, as for self-assessment,

13:23.315 --> 13:25.435
I think this is ultimately the main goal.

13:25.995 --> 13:29.715
I think all feedback should work towards its own redundancy.

13:30.215 --> 13:32.395
The goal of feedback is to empower learners

13:32.695 --> 13:34.795
to take more responsibility for their own learning.

13:35.655 --> 13:38.115
So I think for me, yes, peer assessment,

13:38.115 --> 13:40.595
self-assessment is often not very accurate to begin with.

13:41.095 --> 13:45.155
But our goal should be to empower our students

13:45.575 --> 13:47.875
to become more effective in managing their own learning,

13:48.485 --> 13:50.955
being critical, knowing when they understand something,

13:51.205 --> 13:52.915
being tough on themselves when they don't.

13:53.795 --> 13:56.775
That's I think the, the, the really powerful idea here.

13:57.155 --> 13:59.935
The idea that feedback should help students become in the

13:59.935 --> 14:02.855
psychological jargon, self-regulating learners.

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