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Nishan Canagarajah discusses higher education’s problem with racial equality. Canagarajah also discusses his vision for the University of Leicester with regard to equality, diversity and inclusion. Nishan Canagarajah is President and Vice-Chancellor of the University of Leicester.

Image courtesy of interviewee. March 21, 2024

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The speaker addresses the issue of institutional racism in higher education, asserting that while there may not be overt racism present, the metrics of recruitment, student attainment, and staff progression indicate underlying institutional racism. They emphasize that universities, as centers of learning, should take the lead in addressing these issues rather than attributing them to broader societal problems.

The speaker identifies a lack of transparency and fairness in the PhD recruitment process, arguing that the individualistic nature of PhD supervisor-student selection can perpetuate bias against marginalized communities. They highlight the importance of making selection processes more equitable to prevent disadvantage.

The need for universities to demonstrate leadership in inclusion is emphasized, particularly given the diversity of their student bodies. The speaker emphasizes the vital role of belonging in educational attainment and calls for collaborative efforts between educational institutions, secondary schools, and employers to support diverse students.

While acknowledging progress, such as decolonizing the curriculum and improving support for disadvantaged communities, the speaker warns against complacency, stressing that efforts should be focused on excellence and not tokenism. Overall, they express optimism for the future but underline the importance of maintaining high standards and creating genuine opportunities for all students.

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00:00.245 --> 00:02.505
So I think there are two ways I would approach this.

00:03.725 --> 00:05.505
One is to say, is there

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overt institutional racism in higher education?

00:10.915 --> 00:11.935
And I would say no,

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I don't think there is overt institutional racism,

00:15.555 --> 00:17.655
but is there institutional racism in

00:17.655 --> 00:18.815
the, in terms of metrics?

00:19.715 --> 00:20.855
And I would say yes.

00:21.755 --> 00:23.855
So if you look at the recruitment data,

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if you look at student attainment,

00:28.035 --> 00:30.055
if you look at the recruitment of staff,

00:30.265 --> 00:33.535
their career progression in terms of opportunities

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for marginalized communities to access university space,

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you have to say if you look at those metrics,

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they meet the definition of institutional racism.

00:44.905 --> 00:45.965
So I would always,

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I think there is nothing wrong in admitting there is

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institutional racism, but I think there's, it is important

00:51.405 --> 00:55.165
to recognize it's not overt, but clearly the metrics

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and the data would meet the

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criteria for institutional racism.

00:59.515 --> 01:03.165
Clearly universities are a microcosm

01:03.165 --> 01:04.325
of the wider society,

01:05.315 --> 01:07.495
but I'm also a strong advocate

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for universities leading the way.

01:10.355 --> 01:13.415
So if universities are these centers of learning

01:14.155 --> 01:17.615
or held in high esteem as providing solutions

01:17.755 --> 01:19.255
to the problems that we face,

01:19.935 --> 01:22.175
I would expect the universities to be at the vanguard

01:22.515 --> 01:25.615
of coming, coming up with the solutions rather than hiding

01:25.675 --> 01:28.055
behind and saying, these a systemic issue.

01:28.205 --> 01:29.455
This is a societal issue.

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So we are just experiencing that at the university.

01:32.155 --> 01:33.535
Yes, there's an element of that,

01:33.755 --> 01:35.215
but I don't think that's the defense.

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I think we should be taking the lead

01:37.295 --> 01:39.335
and saying, yeah, that's what's happening in the society,

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but look what's happening in the universities.

01:41.155 --> 01:43.095
We are kind of overcoming all these barriers

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that we see elsewhere in our society.

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And I, that's where I think there is more

01:47.495 --> 01:48.575
work for the universities to do.

01:48.725 --> 01:51.495
Clearly. I think one of the things that we notice is that

01:52.195 --> 01:56.575
if you take undergraduate recruitment, it is very rigorous,

01:57.245 --> 01:59.375
very transparent, very fair.

02:00.325 --> 02:02.065
We will have to meet certain criteria.

02:02.685 --> 02:04.025
As you go up to the PhD,

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it becomes less clear, less transparent.

02:07.805 --> 02:10.705
So to, and I have supervised lots of PhDs myself.

02:11.565 --> 02:14.185
So typically in undergraduate we have to go through,

02:14.245 --> 02:15.705
if you're a home student, you have to go

02:15.705 --> 02:17.545
through UCAS application process.

02:17.685 --> 02:19.545
We have a clear criteria on

02:19.545 --> 02:22.385
what basis we accept a student need to come to a university,

02:22.835 --> 02:24.545
which works well by and large.

02:24.845 --> 02:27.585
But when you come to PhDs, a student applies to do a PhD

02:28.125 --> 02:29.745
and it's ultimately a decision

02:29.905 --> 02:33.815
between the academic supervisor who they want to have

02:34.315 --> 02:35.415
as a PhD student.

02:36.075 --> 02:38.975
And that's if there's already systemic bias in the system,

02:39.435 --> 02:41.495
if there's already institutional racism in the system,

02:41.845 --> 02:43.775
then clearly that's gonna be a disadvantage.

02:44.195 --> 02:47.775
So what we see is that when it comes to PhD recruitment,

02:47.795 --> 02:50.935
and I've been arguing for a long time, that we need

02:50.935 --> 02:54.455
to make the PhD selection transparent fair,

02:54.725 --> 02:56.295
because that's where the problem is.

02:56.295 --> 02:59.285
Because it's very much an individualistic decision

02:59.285 --> 03:01.245
between me as a supervisor

03:01.625 --> 03:04.765
and who I want to recruit as my PhD student.

03:04.855 --> 03:07.405
There is no checks and balances in that process, in my view.

03:08.345 --> 03:11.365
And that's where it starts and then it progresses.

03:11.365 --> 03:13.405
There's less the leaky pipeline, there are less

03:13.405 --> 03:16.045
of them thinking, do I want to go into academia?

03:16.435 --> 03:17.605
They look at the academia

03:17.705 --> 03:20.245
and saying it's very hard to become a lecturer again.

03:20.245 --> 03:22.845
There is some kind of a systemic bias in the process.

03:23.425 --> 03:27.605
I'm not getting a fair opportunity to become a lecturer.

03:27.865 --> 03:29.125
And even if they make it,

03:29.275 --> 03:31.325
then it becomes harder to become a professor.

03:31.625 --> 03:33.845
And even if they make it, it's harder to be going

03:33.845 --> 03:36.925
to a leadership role as a dean or a head of school

03:37.265 --> 03:38.445
or a pro vice chancellor.

03:38.545 --> 03:40.965
And it gets increasingly harder to become a vice chancellor.

03:41.435 --> 03:44.005
It's natural. It just gets narrow and narrow

03:44.505 --> 03:47.165
and we are just making ourselves creating more problems

03:47.165 --> 03:48.805
because we haven't made it transparent

03:49.105 --> 03:50.285
at all levels of the process.

03:50.965 --> 03:55.465
I never worried or never thought about the fact

03:55.465 --> 03:56.545
that I'm A BME.

03:56.825 --> 04:00.305
I just thought, I'm Nissan, I'll just do my job, leave me

04:00.305 --> 04:01.305
to get on and do my job.

04:01.725 --> 04:03.905
And I was good at what I did, I suppose,

04:04.405 --> 04:05.945
and I just realized

04:05.975 --> 04:08.025
what are the important things I need to focus on?

04:08.645 --> 04:11.945
And interesting, when I left Bristol where I was

04:12.005 --> 04:13.705
for 25 years, they said,

04:14.045 --> 04:16.745
and I was the first person to be on the senior team

04:16.775 --> 04:18.025
from an ethnic minority.

04:18.565 --> 04:21.825
So in my travel somebody said, when Han leaves,

04:21.845 --> 04:23.025
we are gonna be no,

04:23.025 --> 04:25.785
have no ethnic minority in our senior team.

04:26.165 --> 04:28.505
And perversely, that's the first time I realized

04:29.215 --> 04:31.965
that I'm an ethnic minority in the senior team.

04:34.355 --> 04:36.655
It kind of reflects my approach to things.

04:36.795 --> 04:40.025
So I never paid too much attention

04:40.085 --> 04:41.385
to the fact that I'm missing my own.

04:41.385 --> 04:43.425
But equally I'm cognizant of the fact

04:43.425 --> 04:45.145
that I was opening doors for many other people

04:45.445 --> 04:46.625
for while by what I was doing.

04:47.125 --> 04:48.745
So, but I think it is fair

04:48.745 --> 04:49.905
to say there are many other people

04:49.905 --> 04:51.665
who would not have that same experience.

04:51.965 --> 04:54.945
So in my case, I just focused on what I needed to do.

04:55.325 --> 04:57.065
But I guess where I was bene

04:57.075 --> 04:58.825
where I benefited is I had good mentors.

04:59.595 --> 05:02.505
There are people who are willing to give me good advice

05:02.605 --> 05:05.225
and kind of identify the potential in me,

05:05.225 --> 05:07.145
shall we say, and give me that opportunity.

05:07.165 --> 05:08.265
And that made a massive difference.

05:08.485 --> 05:10.905
It is my central vision for the university.

05:10.905 --> 05:14.625
Basically when I started, I said very briefly,

05:14.775 --> 05:16.065
it's a dereliction of duty.

05:17.375 --> 05:21.435
If we as a university don't lead the way in showing the rest

05:21.435 --> 05:24.035
of the world what inclusion means in our education

05:24.305 --> 05:25.915
because we have all the ingredients.

05:26.175 --> 05:28.795
We have a diverse student body, 60%

05:28.795 --> 05:32.555
of our students are coming from ethnic minority, 14%

05:32.555 --> 05:34.315
of our students coming from socioeconomic

05:34.315 --> 05:35.475
disadvantaged backgrounds.

05:36.335 --> 05:38.075
And for me, we have a challenge

05:38.295 --> 05:43.155
and an opportunity if we can show how we can sh truly

05:43.675 --> 05:46.315
demonstrate inclusion in a higher setting.

05:46.535 --> 05:48.835
We are in the POS best position to do that.

05:48.855 --> 05:50.715
So that has been my central vision.

05:50.745 --> 05:52.235
That is the kind of measure,

05:52.415 --> 05:54.675
that's why we call ourselves citizens of change.

05:54.905 --> 05:56.515
Inclusion is our priority

05:57.145 --> 06:00.285
and that per permeates in everything that I do, everything

06:00.285 --> 06:01.565
that I want the university to do.

06:01.945 --> 06:03.085
And the second reason is

06:03.085 --> 06:06.325
that Leicester being the most diverse city in the uk, again,

06:06.325 --> 06:08.325
within the community, we have all the

06:08.355 --> 06:10.125
opportunities to make an impact.

06:10.145 --> 06:12.885
And we are, I think the engagement we have in health

06:13.125 --> 06:17.565
sciences, in heritage sector, all kind of geared towards

06:17.865 --> 06:19.325
how do we tap into this potential.

06:19.445 --> 06:21.765
I think other universities will cry for it

06:22.405 --> 06:24.105
and I think it's a mistake if we don't.

06:24.325 --> 06:27.145
So that's what I've been focusing on throughout my

06:27.145 --> 06:28.745
engagement throughout my time at

06:28.745 --> 06:30.385
Leicester since I arrived here.

06:30.535 --> 06:32.065
That has been my central vision.

06:32.565 --> 06:35.065
We are going to show what inclusion means in our education.

06:35.525 --> 06:37.545
So I think clearly as a university, we need

06:37.545 --> 06:39.865
to do everything we can to make it open

06:39.885 --> 06:42.065
and accessible for diverse groups of people

06:42.125 --> 06:43.985
to think there is a place for them

06:44.645 --> 06:46.545
and more importantly, when they get there,

06:46.735 --> 06:49.065
they will feel supported, valued,

06:49.605 --> 06:51.425
and achieve their ambitions.

06:51.765 --> 06:52.785
So I think there is a work

06:52.785 --> 06:54.065
and that's where some

06:54.065 --> 06:55.945
of the problems we have in our education in terms

06:55.945 --> 06:59.105
of attainment gaps and belonging is important.

06:59.105 --> 07:01.825
And I've talked about why belonging is important.

07:01.845 --> 07:03.105
If you don't feel you belong,

07:03.365 --> 07:05.945
you can't fulfill your potential.

07:06.285 --> 07:08.545
So I think that is some work that we need to do

07:08.805 --> 07:10.425
as a community in the university.

07:10.925 --> 07:14.385
But then we also need to, that's why my meetings

07:14.385 --> 07:16.425
with the secondary school teachers are important.

07:16.425 --> 07:18.705
They have a role to play to kind of

07:19.335 --> 07:20.905
make these youngsters aware.

07:21.075 --> 07:24.065
University is a place for them to aspire to and go to,

07:24.525 --> 07:25.945
but on the other end of the pipeline,

07:25.945 --> 07:27.145
we need to work with the employers.

07:27.875 --> 07:30.205
They need to recognize they have a role to play.

07:30.515 --> 07:31.885
When we have spent a huge amount

07:31.885 --> 07:34.645
of time in schools promoting university

07:34.645 --> 07:36.005
as a viable career option,

07:36.235 --> 07:38.485
then within the universities we spend a huge amount

07:38.485 --> 07:41.765
of time supporting them to achieve their full potential.

07:42.035 --> 07:43.405
They will all be disappointed

07:43.745 --> 07:46.165
and disillusioned if they go to the job market

07:46.225 --> 07:47.605
and they're not getting the opportunity.

07:47.865 --> 07:49.605
So the employers have a part to play.

07:49.825 --> 07:52.285
So I think it is a multiple interventions we need,

07:52.545 --> 07:54.485
but that doesn't mean we can't lead the way.

07:54.485 --> 07:56.645
And that's what I've been doing to kind of work

07:56.645 --> 07:58.485
with my staff, is to kind of make people aware,

07:58.815 --> 08:01.405
don't just expect one part of the society to deal

08:01.405 --> 08:04.165
with this multi challenge at multiple fronts.

08:04.305 --> 08:05.645
We all have a part to play

08:06.105 --> 08:08.165
and that's how we can eradicate in my view.

08:08.505 --> 08:09.525
But having said that,

08:09.845 --> 08:12.485
I think the universities are making good progress in terms

08:12.485 --> 08:15.925
of decolonizing curriculum, looking at the attainment gap,

08:16.035 --> 08:19.165
looking at the specific support for students in terms

08:19.185 --> 08:22.485
of pastoral support or career development opportunities.

08:23.065 --> 08:26.605
So for example, in Leicester, we have opportunities just

08:26.605 --> 08:28.005
for disadvantaged communities.

08:28.005 --> 08:29.485
How do we create internships for them

08:29.485 --> 08:32.045
because they don't have the network, the social capital.

08:32.355 --> 08:34.685
Some of the other students might come up with, come back

08:34.685 --> 08:36.605
because their parents are well networked.

08:36.785 --> 08:38.165
So we are creating those kinds

08:38.165 --> 08:39.205
of opportunities with the university.

08:39.385 --> 08:40.525
So we will continue to do that,

08:40.905 --> 08:42.365
but equally we need to engage

08:42.365 --> 08:45.365
with other players in the society who can make an impact.

08:46.165 --> 08:48.005
Absolutely. You look at the progress we have made.

08:48.485 --> 08:51.125
I think there is, and I always look at the gender diversity

08:51.785 --> 08:54.765
to give me the optimism, look where we are in terms of

08:54.765 --> 08:57.325
Gender diversity and if we can do with gender,

08:57.465 --> 09:00.965
I'm optimistic we can do that with, diversity as well,

09:01.425 --> 09:03.725
but equally, we can't be complacent.

09:04.065 --> 09:05.165
But I'm optimistic.

09:05.225 --> 09:07.685
Uh, I think the progress that has been made is good,

09:07.905 --> 09:11.485
but what I would say is that while looking at optimistic,

09:11.625 --> 09:14.325
but I don't want to compromise on our standards,

09:14.985 --> 09:16.205
it shouldn't be tokenism.

09:16.545 --> 09:18.685
It should be based on values,

09:19.145 --> 09:20.525
it should be based on excellence.

09:20.715 --> 09:22.165
It's about creating opportunities,

09:22.215 --> 09:24.085
being innovative in the way we

09:24.085 --> 09:25.245
support different communities.

09:25.505 --> 09:27.965
And that's how we will achieve, the progress

09:27.965 --> 09:29.125
that I would be aspiring.

Addressing Institutional Racism in Higher Education

00:00:00 - So I think there are two ways I would approach this. One is to say, is there overt institutional racism in higher education? And I would say no, I don't think there is overt institutional racism, but is there institutional racism in the, in terms of metrics? And I would say yes. So if you look at the recruitment data, if you look at student attainment, if you look at the recruitment of staff,
00:00:33 - for marginalized communities to access university space, you have to say if you look at those metrics, they meet the definition of institutional racism. So I would always, I think there is nothing wrong in admitting there is institutional racism, but I think there's, it is important to recognize it's not overt, but clearly the metrics and the data would meet the criteria for institutional racism. Clearly universities are a microcosm
00:01:05 - but I'm also a strong advocate for universities leading the way. So if universities are these centers of learning or held in high esteem as providing solutions to the problems that we face, I would expect the universities to be at the vanguard of coming, coming up with the solutions rather than hiding behind and saying, these a systemic issue. This is a societal issue. So we are just experiencing that at the university. Yes, there's an element of that,
00:01:35 - I think we should be taking the lead and saying, yeah, that's what's happening in the society, but look what's happening in the universities. We are kind of overcoming all these barriers that we see elsewhere in our society. And I, that's where I think there is more work for the universities to do. Clearly. I think one of the things that we notice is that if you take undergraduate recruitment, it is very rigorous, very transparent, very fair. We will have to meet certain criteria. As you go up to the PhD,
00:02:07 - So to, and I have supervised lots of PhDs myself. So typically in undergraduate we have to go through, if you're a home student, you have to go through UCAS application process. We have a clear criteria on what basis we accept a student need to come to a university, which works well by and large. But when you come to PhDs, a student applies to do a PhD and it's ultimately a decision between the academic supervisor who they want to have as a PhD student.
00:02:39 - if there's already institutional racism in the system, then clearly that's gonna be a disadvantage. So what we see is that when it comes to PhD recruitment, and I've been arguing for a long time, that we need to make the PhD selection transparent fair, because that's where the problem is. Because it's very much an individualistic decision between me as a supervisor and who I want to recruit as my PhD student. There is no checks and balances in that process, in my view.

Addressing Systemic Bias in Academia

00:03:11 - There's less the leaky pipeline, there are less of them thinking, do I want to go into academia? They look at the academia and saying it's very hard to become a lecturer again. There is some kind of a systemic bias in the process. I'm not getting a fair opportunity to become a lecturer. And even if they make it, then it becomes harder to become a professor. And even if they make it, it's harder to be going to a leadership role as a dean or a head of school or a pro vice chancellor.
00:03:41 - It's natural. It just gets narrow and narrow and we are just making ourselves creating more problems because we haven't made it transparent at all levels of the process. I never worried or never thought about the fact that I'm A BME. I just thought, I'm Nissan, I'll just do my job, leave me to get on and do my job. And I was good at what I did, I suppose, and I just realized what are the important things I need to focus on?
00:04:12 - for 25 years, they said, and I was the first person to be on the senior team from an ethnic minority. So in my travel somebody said, when Han leaves, we are gonna be no, have no ethnic minority in our senior team. And perversely, that's the first time I realized that I'm an ethnic minority in the senior team. It kind of reflects my approach to things. So I never paid too much attention
00:04:41 - But equally I'm cognizant of the fact that I was opening doors for many other people for while by what I was doing. So, but I think it is fair to say there are many other people who would not have that same experience. So in my case, I just focused on what I needed to do. But I guess where I was bene where I benefited is I had good mentors. There are people who are willing to give me good advice and kind of identify the potential in me, shall we say, and give me that opportunity. And that made a massive difference. It is my central vision for the university.
00:05:14 - it's a dereliction of duty. If we as a university don't lead the way in showing the rest of the world what inclusion means in our education because we have all the ingredients. We have a diverse student body, 60% of our students are coming from ethnic minority, 14% of our students coming from socioeconomic disadvantaged backgrounds. And for me, we have a challenge and an opportunity if we can show how we can sh truly
00:05:46 - We are in the POS best position to do that. So that has been my central vision. That is the kind of measure, that's why we call ourselves citizens of change. Inclusion is our priority and that per permeates in everything that I do, everything that I want the university to do. And the second reason is that Leicester being the most diverse city in the uk, again, within the community, we have all the opportunities to make an impact. And we are, I think the engagement we have in health sciences, in heritage sector, all kind of geared towards

Inclusive Education: A Call for Action

00:06:19 - I think other universities will cry for it and I think it's a mistake if we don't. So that's what I've been focusing on throughout my engagement throughout my time at Leicester since I arrived here. That has been my central vision. We are going to show what inclusion means in our education. So I think clearly as a university, we need to do everything we can to make it open and accessible for diverse groups of people to think there is a place for them and more importantly, when they get there, they will feel supported, valued,
00:06:51 - So I think there is a work and that's where some of the problems we have in our education in terms of attainment gaps and belonging is important. And I've talked about why belonging is important. If you don't feel you belong, you can't fulfill your potential. So I think that is some work that we need to do as a community in the university. But then we also need to, that's why my meetings with the secondary school teachers are important. They have a role to play to kind of make these youngsters aware.
00:07:24 - but on the other end of the pipeline, we need to work with the employers. They need to recognize they have a role to play. When we have spent a huge amount of time in schools promoting university as a viable career option, then within the universities we spend a huge amount of time supporting them to achieve their full potential. They will all be disappointed and disillusioned if they go to the job market and they're not getting the opportunity. So the employers have a part to play. So I think it is a multiple interventions we need,
00:07:54 - And that's what I've been doing to kind of work with my staff, is to kind of make people aware, don't just expect one part of the society to deal with this multi challenge at multiple fronts. We all have a part to play and that's how we can eradicate in my view. But having said that, I think the universities are making good progress in terms of decolonizing curriculum, looking at the attainment gap, looking at the specific support for students in terms of pastoral support or career development opportunities.
00:08:26 - for disadvantaged communities. How do we create internships for them because they don't have the network, the social capital. Some of the other students might come up with, come back because their parents are well networked. So we are creating those kinds of opportunities with the university. So we will continue to do that, but equally we need to engage with other players in the society who can make an impact. Absolutely. You look at the progress we have made. I think there is, and I always look at the gender diversity to give me the optimism, look where we are in terms of
00:08:57 - I'm optimistic we can do that with, diversity as well, but equally, we can't be complacent. But I'm optimistic. I think the progress that has been made is good, but what I would say is that while looking at optimistic, but I don't want to compromise on our standards, it shouldn't be tokenism. It should be based on values, it should be based on excellence. It's about creating opportunities, being innovative in the way we support different communities.