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Declan Fahie discuss conducting education research. Practical advice for students and researchers.

Image courtesy of interviewee. December 5, 2023

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This video video outlines various challenges and essential considerations for novice researchers, particularly in educational contexts. The speaker emphasizes that it is crucial for students to be aware of institutional norms and to consult with their supervisors throughout their research journey. Key obstacles highlighted include:

1. **Lack of Skills**: Novice researchers often underestimate the complexities of research, finding the process more challenging than anticipated.

2. **Overly Ambitious Research Questions**: Enthusiasm can lead students to set unrealistic objectives. It’s important to balance ambition with practicality.

3. **Lack of Confidence**: As students progress, their confidence typically increases, but they must recognize that mastery of research takes time.

4. **Craft of Academic Writing**: Academic writing is a skill that develops through practice and feedback.

The speaker identifies two primary variables for choosing research topics: **personal interest** and **professional utility**. Personal interest is paramount, as sustained engagement in research over time is necessary. Professional utility should complement personal interests but not overshadow them.

An important component of research is the methodology, which must align with the research question and be determined in collaboration with a supervisor. The speaker discusses qualitative, quantitative, and mixed methods approaches, emphasizing the need to be familiar with theoretical frameworks that support these methodologies.

Further, the text underscores the importance of organization, saving work consistently, and being aware of ethical considerations throughout the research process. Ethical approval is not a one-time checklist but should inform all aspects of the research.

Finally, ongoing professional development and critical engagement with the latest research are essential for practitioners in education, helping them apply findings in their work and improving educational practices. The overall message calls for perseverance, humility, and a commitment to continuous learning within the field of research.

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I need to preface everything that I say during the course

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of the interview by saying that,

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for any novice researcher,

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if they themselves are attending a third level institution

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and are doing perhaps a, an, an undergraduate degree

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or a master's or, or a PhD,

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that there may be institutional norms

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and requirements for their modules

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or for their programs that they would need to check

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with their supervisors or with their,

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their own institutions.

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Having said that, everything

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that I'd be saying today will be fairly ge, general,

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and hopefully it will be able to be applied to,

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to any course or to anybody who's interested in research.

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I think that there are a number of challenges

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and obstacles for any researcher when they start

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or embark upon the research journey.

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Um, I think the first one is, is the absence of skills.

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The expectation that at the very, very beginning

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of the process, that the researcher, the,

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the novice researcher, the, the, the student will know what

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to do and how to do it,

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and perhaps will be overly ambitious with their,

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expectations towards themselves.

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And it can be quite frustrating for the student when they

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embark upon the process

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and suddenly realize that perhaps,

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it's much more difficult than they first thought.

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The second thing I think is often an issue is an overly

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ambitious research question.

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Students who embark upon any type of research,

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and in my experience, the students that I've worked

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with over the years who are working in education research,

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they are quite almost evangelical.

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Certainly they're very, very enthusiastic.

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And with that, when they decide they're going to, you know,

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undertake a thesis or a, a, a dissertation

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or an extended essay, they want to change the world.

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Now that enthusiasm isn't something I want to change

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or I want to dilute,

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but at the same time, we have to be realistic,

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realistic in terms of word count, in terms of the timeframe

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of their, of their course,

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and also in terms of what the expectations are around

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that particular program.

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So, for example, if you're a PhD student, the expectations

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around the type of research

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that you would be engaged in would be very different

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to the type of research, the expectations

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that would surround an undergraduate degree.

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So within that framework, I think that we, you know,

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that a student may want to, you know, devise or create

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or come up with groundbreaking, new ideas

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around a particular topic.

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And realistically speaking, that may not be possible.

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And it, in many cases,

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it's highly unlikely that that would be the case.

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But that doesn't in any way diminish the importance

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of the research that has been undertaken.

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I think too, that there's often an issue

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around lack of confidence.

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Um, and that's something that I think that over the process

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of the, of the, the research journey,

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your confidence increases,

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and it's about having that fine balance between,

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the development of self-confidence in

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the, in your abilities.

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And at the same time, recognizing that, none of us,

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no matter how long we've been engaged in this world,

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will know all of the answers and will be completely expert.

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And the final thing I'll say is

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a huge obstacle is a recogni.

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The recognition and the acknowledgement

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that there is a craft to be learned around research,

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particularly the craft of academic writing.

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And no matter how skilled you are in terms of your ability

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to write, in, in your mother language

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or your first language for many people,

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or in some cases in a second language from others,

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there's a particular type of writing that, pertains

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to academic, scholarship.

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And that's something that can only be learned over time.

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And it can be quite frustrating too,

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because it involves a lot of writing and rewriting

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and editing and advice and making mistakes.

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But it does come.

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But it is an obstacle that needs to be overcome if you want

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to be, read and if you want to be understood.

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And if you want fundamentally to be published, there are two

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very important, components

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or variables in terms of deciding

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what exactly you're going to research.

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The first one, and the most important one

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is personal interest.

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And the reality is that you'll be engaged in the process

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of research for a period of time,

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depending upon obviously the program that you're on,

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but it could, it could vary from, six months

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to perhaps six years.

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If you're doing a PhD, you cannot engage with

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that process in a fruitful, in a, an in-depth manner

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unless you have got a deep personal interest

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in the topic itself.

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So that has to be the most important variable.

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The second variable that's important

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is professional utility.

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Um, there is no, if you, if your desire is, for example,

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to achieve a leadership position within a school

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or within, an education institution,

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well then undertaking a, a thesis, a thesis topic

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or a research topic to do with leadership, for example,

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would obviously be a good idea.

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Um, now at the same time, I think that for me,

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the balance needs to be towards the personal rather than the

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professional, because I've seen it happen

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where students have wanted to, because for ambitious

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or for career purposes, undertake a topic

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that they themselves don't have a huge interest in,

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but they think that it's useful.

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And I think that that can be dangerous.

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And I, I, I, I've had one student in particular

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that I remember regretted that retrospectively,

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I don't think that there is such a thing as useless,

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knowledge or useless research.

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But at the same time, I do think that,

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professional utility has to be a, a component, but,

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but shouldn't be the most important component when making

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the choice about what to, what to research.

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The novice research in particular cannot do on their own.

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I think it has to be something that is done in conjunction

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with their, pH their PhD or master's

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or undergraduate supervisor.

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I think it goes back to the point we made earlier on about,

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an overly ambitious research question.

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Um, we have to take, take, you know,

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several factors into account in terms of

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how you formulate your research question.

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Um, first of all, it has to be doable.

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Um, and again, that's

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where you take the advice from somebody

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who has been engaged in this research for a long period

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of time, your supervisor,

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and they will tell you, okay, that's too ambitious.

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Or perhaps it could be the opposite, that

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that isn't a question that is a, sufficiently robust

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or sufficient, sufficiently broad for, for example, a PhD.

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So it must be doable. It also must be scholarly.

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There must be an element, a component in

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that research question that is going to uncover

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or can be engaged with in a scholarly way.

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Um, if it's a case that you are, for example,

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not engaged in formal study, so that you are perhaps

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a teacher in a school or a head teacher

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or somebody who wants to engage in, in research outside

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of the formal education system, that's absolutely,

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appropriate and, and valid.

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Um, I think even in that context, it's important

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to have a critical friend.

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So that for somebody like me, an academic

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who has been involved in publications and writing books

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and journal articles over many years, I would still talk

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to people whose opinions I value

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and ask them, what do you think?

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Because invariably, they'll come up with a problem

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or a suggestion,

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and inevitably it will enrich the process for you

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and make your research question stronger

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and more rigorous, hopefully, as part of your,

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of the research methods module that is, is, is given in,

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at master's level or undergraduate level,

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there will be guidelines given, very practical guidelines

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given in terms of how to, access

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and how to navigate this whole world.

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Um, it's a tricky one.

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I think in the first case, no matter what the topic is,

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you need to start at the very beginning

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and look at the seminal work.

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In other words, look at the people who first started

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to study this area.

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And it's almost like, stepping stones in a pond,

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because you find one piece of work, say for example, one,

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scholar who was, who perhaps 20 years ago

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discovered this particular area.

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And when you read him

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or her, they point you towards another scholar

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and they point you towards another scholar.

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So all the time, as you're reading, you are going

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to the bibliography at the end of the journal article

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or at the end of the book,

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and you're saying, who are the names

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that are coming up again and again?

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And you keep returning to those,

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what papers are being cited regularly.

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And then as you start to read,

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you become quite adept in saying, okay, well,

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I've already looked at this person,

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but I see there's another person whose name is coming up.

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I better look at those.

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So in that context, you start to, to build up a repertoire

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of knowledge, and you move from the seminal,

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the original work, to more UpToDate work,

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and you find a balance between both.

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I think by UpToDate work, I would say UpToDate will be sort

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of in the last five years,

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but it isn't, it isn't an exact science

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because there may be, there may be works that are,

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there may be studies, and there may be scholarship

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that is seven or eight

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or nine years old that is critical to the area

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that's under consideration.

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There are educational databases like Eric,

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like Google Scholar, but yes,

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and what I think of too, don't forget policy documents.

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So whatever country you know, you're studying

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or that you're studying in,

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national policy documents from your, from your government

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or from your education departments

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or education ministries,

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or would be very important in informing

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and enriching your own scholarship.

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Social media is also quite, quite useful.

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But I think that the, the, the huge caveat

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and the huge warning I would have, it'd be very,

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very careful about going down the rabbit hole

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of internet searches.

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Um, for two reasons.

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First of all, you could spend hours and hours of wasted time

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and find very little of value,

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but secondly, be wary of citing too many,

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websites on,

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unless those websites are from reputable agencies.

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It's very easy to,

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and, it's, it's often a, an issue with, with,

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undergraduate students.

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They will find information on, on websites whose,

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bonafide days could be questioned.

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Um, so if you are, using websites,

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use websites from, government

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and from reputable sources, avoid, for example,

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using the websites of the tabloid media, for example,

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and then finally ensure that no matter what source you use,

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that you cite it

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and that you site it appropriately according

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to the reference style

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that is used in your institution or in your school.

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Your methodology is always decided

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or is always shaped by your research question, full stop.

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Um, how that decision is made

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is in conjunction with your supervisor.

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Um, the research question

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and the aims of the study are the only factors

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that determine the, the research methodology.

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Now, there may be practicalities around the tweaking of the,

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the actual implementation of the research methodology,

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but the research methodology must always be there

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and designed and selected as the best way

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of answering your research question.

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Anybody engaged in, in educational research will be familiar

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with the very least with qualitative research

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and sometimes verses,

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although it shouldn't be seen as, antagonistic words,

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quantitative research.

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So as you know, qualitative research is the research

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of interviews of words.

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It's usually, involving, interviews or focus groups.

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Now, there, there is a huge variety of other methodologies,

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but at it most basic level, that's what it may be.

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And qualitative research is often used when you want

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to find out people's opinions

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and when you're looking for depth, the why

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and why do you thinks

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quantitative research is about quantity?

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It's about numbers. So that's the type

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of research when you see, reports on the media that

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for example, whatever percentage, like

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or dislike the government at a particular time.

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So 98% want a, a new general election.

13:07.785 --> 13:09.925
That's an example of quantitative research

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where a survey has been used.

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Um, and that's used for a broader,

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field of information.

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So quant is breadth and qual is depth.

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And then also what's used is mixed methods

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where you use a variety of both, where you might use qual

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and quant methods, so that, for example,

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you might use a survey asking people their opinions on a

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particular curriculum or new initiative in education.

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Um, and you would have a number of questions

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that you would ask them to.

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You would ask them, and they would fill out a form

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and they would submit that, and you'd have maybe a hundred

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or perhaps a thousand depending on the type of

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of survey you're doing.

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And you would say, well, 40%

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of the people we surveyed said they

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didn't like this new initiative.

13:58.945 --> 14:00.725
But then you'd say to yourself, well, actually,

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that information is interesting,

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but I'd like to find out a little bit more.

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So you ask some of those people who completed the interview

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to, or who completed the survey to agree to an interview,

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and you ask, well, why do you feel this way?

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And in that, in that way, it becomes mixed methods

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because you are using both qual and both quant.

14:20.765 --> 14:24.965
I will stress, that whilst, you know, those are very,

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very broad and there's, there's a myriad

14:27.005 --> 14:30.725
of different precise methodologies within, within the quant

14:30.945 --> 14:33.405
and qual and mixed method paradigms.

14:33.905 --> 14:37.405
What's very important is that every researcher,

14:37.415 --> 14:40.485
every every novice researcher particular is familiar

14:40.515 --> 14:42.685
with the theory behind them.

14:43.385 --> 14:46.165
So there are what's called theoretical frameworks.

14:46.625 --> 14:50.925
So there are people like me who say to yourself, who say,

14:51.305 --> 14:53.685
not only is it important that you do interviews,

14:53.745 --> 14:55.245
but you need to know what type

14:55.245 --> 14:57.285
of interviews are you finding?

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Are you using, why did you select these

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particular interviews?

15:02.465 --> 15:06.165
And what was the, the evolution in these type of interviews?

15:06.545 --> 15:10.405
So for example, one of the, the issues in qual is

15:10.405 --> 15:13.165
that we talk about find not finding the truth,

15:13.465 --> 15:14.845
but finding a truth.

15:15.465 --> 15:17.565
So you need to have a little, if you were writing about

15:17.565 --> 15:18.845
that, you'd need to have some sort

15:18.845 --> 15:20.405
of a theoretical justification

15:20.665 --> 15:22.205
around the whole issue of truth.

15:22.945 --> 15:25.205
And when you engage at that level, that means

15:25.205 --> 15:29.525
that you go from this just being a very surface level type

15:29.525 --> 15:33.165
of research into being a much more profound and scholarly

15:33.305 --> 15:35.805
and robust type of inquiry.

15:35.945 --> 15:37.005
And that's quite important.

15:37.145 --> 15:41.165
The first thing is, I would say, every thesis

15:42.065 --> 15:46.725
is a, it's a marathon and it's not a sprint.

15:47.785 --> 15:50.725
So if as an undergrad you were the type

15:50.725 --> 15:51.845
of person like I was,

15:51.905 --> 15:52.965
and like many people were

15:52.985 --> 15:54.565
who left everything till the last minute,

15:55.465 --> 15:58.365
you can't replicate that when you're doing any type

15:58.365 --> 16:01.165
of a thesis, you need to be consistent.

16:02.065 --> 16:06.125
Now, if it's a master's thesis, that means

16:06.125 --> 16:08.725
that over the p over the course of probably six months

16:08.745 --> 16:11.925
to a year, you need to say goodbye to your friends

16:11.925 --> 16:15.205
and your loved ones, and you need to close the door,

16:15.205 --> 16:16.965
turn off the lights, turn on your laptop,

16:17.225 --> 16:20.485
and work consistently on a regular basis.

16:21.305 --> 16:24.485
If not every day, almost every day.

16:25.135 --> 16:29.845
There is no way around it. It's lonely, it's a pain.

16:30.345 --> 16:33.685
You will regret every minute of it and you will cry.

16:34.385 --> 16:36.965
But every one of us have gone through the same process,

16:37.505 --> 16:42.165
so it must be done on a regular basis, even on, for example,

16:42.225 --> 16:43.605
if you're working full-time is, I,

16:43.685 --> 16:45.365
I was working full-time when I did my master's,

16:45.365 --> 16:48.765
and for most of my PhD, even on a Friday evening,

16:48.765 --> 16:50.285
when you're tired from work

16:51.025 --> 16:53.325
and you're tired of your lifestyle choices

16:53.465 --> 16:55.565
and you're tired that your friends are going to the pub

16:55.825 --> 16:57.085
and you've still got to do work,

16:57.435 --> 17:00.925
even on those nights when you can't face reading anything

17:00.925 --> 17:02.845
that's heavy or anything that's difficult

17:02.865 --> 17:05.645
or anything that's conceptual on those nights,

17:06.575 --> 17:07.805
start downloading papers,

17:08.415 --> 17:10.405
start organizing your bibliography,

17:10.895 --> 17:13.805
start preparing the formatting of your thesis, things

17:13.805 --> 17:15.405
that are sort of brainless,

17:15.865 --> 17:17.445
but still require, will take time

17:17.875 --> 17:21.525
because you need to be working at this on a regular basis.

17:22.945 --> 17:25.385
I also think you need to be very organized,

17:25.645 --> 17:26.825
and I'm saying that to somebody

17:26.825 --> 17:29.465
who isn't naturally organized myself.

17:30.165 --> 17:33.265
So that means that make sure that you save everything,

17:33.285 --> 17:35.185
and I'll talk about that in a moment at a different level.

17:35.365 --> 17:37.825
But when you're saving, for example, papers,

17:38.415 --> 17:42.065
what I would do is that, let's use the example of, of,

17:42.065 --> 17:44.025
you're doing your master's thesis on leadership,

17:45.135 --> 17:47.715
and you're also looking at leadership in primary schools,

17:48.055 --> 17:49.765
and you're looking at leadership in,

17:49.765 --> 17:52.685
within the educational system in the United Kingdom, just

17:52.685 --> 17:54.765
for example, I would have folders

17:54.765 --> 17:56.165
that would focus on all the papers

17:56.165 --> 17:57.805
that deal just with leadership.

17:58.265 --> 18:00.405
I'd have another folder that would look at the educational

18:00.405 --> 18:01.565
system in the uk.

18:02.165 --> 18:03.885
I would've another folder that would look at primary

18:03.955 --> 18:05.965
education so that when the time comes

18:06.105 --> 18:08.885
and I need to find a paper for whatever reason,

18:09.365 --> 18:10.685
I know exactly where it is,

18:11.225 --> 18:13.445
and save the paper by the name of the author.

18:13.785 --> 18:16.605
So call it Fatty 1999, so

18:16.605 --> 18:18.165
that you can find it very, very quickly.

18:19.305 --> 18:21.165
Um, the final thing I'll say to you,

18:21.165 --> 18:23.965
and probably if there's one takeaway from all

18:23.965 --> 18:28.485
of this interview, make sure you save as you go along.

18:30.285 --> 18:33.625
The number of times that students have come to me

18:33.645 --> 18:38.065
and they've lost drafts, they've lost,

18:38.495 --> 18:40.265
significant pieces of their works

18:40.375 --> 18:44.465
because laptop di laptops died, are

18:44.565 --> 18:47.965
for whatever reason, please save everything.

18:48.025 --> 18:49.325
Now, I I'm old school.

18:49.865 --> 18:52.045
Um, so I do things like when I'd have a chapter written,

18:52.145 --> 18:56.525
I'd email it to myself, and even if it's a draft,

18:56.525 --> 18:58.005
because the frustration that

18:58.005 --> 18:59.565
that happens when things are lost,

18:59.755 --> 19:01.045
when there's a power outage

19:01.105 --> 19:03.925
or something happens, I know that one of my colleagues,

19:03.985 --> 19:07.095
for example, they had a fire in their house, so

19:07.095 --> 19:09.415
that even though she'd everything saved onto our laptop

19:09.515 --> 19:13.415
and onto AUSB, their the house was destroyed.

19:13.635 --> 19:18.505
She lost everything. So saving it, to, to the cloud

19:18.885 --> 19:20.465
or emailing it to yourself, I think,

19:21.335 --> 19:22.425
yeah, it's a no brainer.

19:22.775 --> 19:26.545
Each institution, their own process towards the granting

19:26.545 --> 19:29.945
of ethical approval for your research, it's something

19:29.945 --> 19:31.865
that I'm actually quite interested in myself,

19:31.865 --> 19:33.625
and it's something I've just written about recently.

19:34.285 --> 19:37.185
Um, if it's okay to say, I mean, I,

19:37.265 --> 19:40.145
I have a book out called Doing Research in Education,

19:40.165 --> 19:42.545
and edited work with, with a colleague Shane Bergen.

19:42.965 --> 19:45.065
Um, but as well as that to myself personally,

19:45.065 --> 19:47.545
I've just literally finished them writing on, on ethics.

19:48.325 --> 19:51.905
Um, I think that there, there is a challenge around ethics,

19:52.685 --> 19:57.615
because it's very easy to to to feel

19:58.485 --> 20:02.975
that once granted your ethical approval by your institution,

20:02.975 --> 20:04.375
and in many cases, my own,

20:04.555 --> 20:06.335
that's a quite a rigorous process.

20:06.475 --> 20:09.175
So you have a lot of documentation, you have a lot

20:09.175 --> 20:11.655
of questions to, and, and, to fill out.

20:12.795 --> 20:14.495
Um, it's, it's put before a committee.

20:14.595 --> 20:17.015
The committee may have further clarifications

20:17.325 --> 20:19.735
that they want you to, to, to submit,

20:20.355 --> 20:22.015
and it could take months

20:22.355 --> 20:24.175
to be awarded your ethical approval.

20:25.315 --> 20:27.655
And I absolutely think that that's hugely important.

20:28.405 --> 20:32.535
However, what can happen is that

20:33.455 --> 20:34.975
students or any researcher,

20:34.975 --> 20:38.855
even very experienced reach researchers, can then say, what,

20:39.055 --> 20:40.655
that's my ethics finished with.

20:40.975 --> 20:42.895
I don't need to think about ethics again.

20:44.235 --> 20:45.335
And that's dangerous.

20:46.445 --> 20:50.605
It's really important that all of us as ethical researchers

20:51.425 --> 20:53.845
ensure that our ethical behavior

20:54.625 --> 20:57.405
is imbued across the whole research process.

20:58.355 --> 21:00.685
It's like the Hippocratic Oath, you know?

21:00.825 --> 21:03.925
Um, first do no harm pre no naturally.

21:05.225 --> 21:07.565
We must make sure that whatever we do,

21:07.595 --> 21:09.445
whoever we are researching on

21:09.545 --> 21:12.525
or with come out of the process,

21:12.825 --> 21:14.605
no worse than when they began.

21:14.825 --> 21:17.645
At the very least. That's, that's the least we need to do.

21:18.345 --> 21:21.965
So the our ethics isn't just something that we do in order

21:21.985 --> 21:25.165
to have a paragraph in our thesis saying, this is

21:25.165 --> 21:28.445
what we had to do for our ethical approval, we must ensure

21:28.445 --> 21:33.155
that everything we do, everything that we do has the,

21:33.375 --> 21:37.435
the participant at its center, not ourselves.

21:37.865 --> 21:41.635
It's the same for any profession that there, there is,

21:41.635 --> 21:45.115
there is a, an idea, sort of a technican idea that,

21:45.135 --> 21:46.435
you know, you can become a teacher,

21:46.575 --> 21:49.995
you can become involved in education by just reading a book,

21:50.535 --> 21:52.715
and it'll say on day one, this is what you do.

21:52.735 --> 21:54.955
And then on day two you do that, and if x, y,

21:54.955 --> 21:56.315
or Z happens, this is what you do.

21:56.375 --> 22:00.595
You follow a manual. But teachers are professionals.

22:01.785 --> 22:03.565
And if we, if, if,

22:03.705 --> 22:05.485
and I, I myself was a teacher for,

22:05.485 --> 22:07.485
for 20 years in primary school,

22:07.725 --> 22:09.205
teaching reception for most of that time.

22:09.945 --> 22:13.805
Um, if we, want ourselves to be recognized

22:13.805 --> 22:17.165
and acknowledged as professionals, then we have to engage

22:17.355 --> 22:19.085
with the scholarship,

22:19.425 --> 22:22.245
the up-to-date scholarship in our field.

22:22.985 --> 22:26.365
Um, it's really important that we can link the theory

22:27.105 --> 22:29.685
and link the research to our daily practice.

22:30.225 --> 22:32.485
And that isn't something that happens by accident.

22:32.955 --> 22:36.685
That requires the ability to critically engage

22:36.875 --> 22:37.965
with the research.

22:38.865 --> 22:40.525
So to know what is good research

22:40.785 --> 22:45.685
and what is bad research, we need to be able to then apply

22:45.995 --> 22:48.485
that research to our own context.

22:49.305 --> 22:51.165
And that's something that takes practice.

22:51.425 --> 22:53.325
It isn't something that happens from a vacuum.

22:53.985 --> 22:57.925
But fundamentally, we need to value the whole concept

22:58.025 --> 23:00.565
of research as a means of informing

23:00.595 --> 23:02.165
what we do on a daily basis.

23:03.105 --> 23:07.765
And we need to say to ourselves that even when we are tired,

23:08.225 --> 23:09.365
or even when we feel

23:09.365 --> 23:10.485
after 30 years,

23:10.755 --> 23:13.205
that we have got our handle on a particular topic

23:13.225 --> 23:17.325
or on a handle, on a particular way of doing, we need

23:17.345 --> 23:20.325
to fundamentally be humble enough to know

23:20.325 --> 23:22.245
that there are people all over the world

23:22.825 --> 23:24.645
who are thinking about what you do,

23:25.345 --> 23:28.485
and be humble enough to recognize that they may have ideas

23:28.715 --> 23:31.565
that aren't necessarily better than the ideas of those

23:31.565 --> 23:34.085
who are working on a daily basis in the classroom,

23:34.705 --> 23:37.845
but they may inform and enrich what you're doing.

23:38.225 --> 23:41.645
Or at the very worst case scenario, confirm that

23:41.645 --> 23:42.765
what you're doing is right.

23:43.745 --> 23:44.805
So I would say that,

23:44.805 --> 23:46.165
That any engagement,

23:46.165 --> 23:48.605
and this is why continuous professional development

23:48.865 --> 23:50.325
and giving teachers time

23:50.865 --> 23:54.445
and space to engage at that level is hugely important.

23:54.745 --> 23:58.445
If we want our, teachers to be more professional,

23:58.625 --> 24:00.365
and if we want the quality of teaching

24:00.365 --> 24:04.045
and learning in our schools to be at as optimum for as long

24:04.045 --> 24:04.445
as possible.

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