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Good Guys, Bad Guys The Perils of Men’s Gender Activism

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Good Guys, Bad Guys exposes how even self-proclaimed feminist men inadvertently perpetuate gender inequality through their attitudes, behaviors, and relationships. Emily Carian discusses.

Image courtesy of interviewee. February 7, 2024

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This video video discusses research conducted on men involved in two contrasting movements: the men's rights movement and feminist activism. The speaker initially sought to understand the motivations behind men's rights activism, which claims that men are discriminated against and contend that feminism has created a gender hierarchy favoring women. In contrast, feminist men recognize their privilege and aim to challenge it and work towards gender equality.

The research involved 62 semi-structured interviews with men from both movements, exploring their experiences, perceptions of gender inequality, and reasons for their activism. The study revealed both groups had similar emotional responses to confronting the idea of male privilege, with men's rights activists often feeling discomfort and anger, leading them to identify as victims rather than privileged. Conversely, feminist men grappled with their privilege but used this understanding to position themselves as moral allies to women.

This video video concludes with recommendations for fostering a more inclusive future, highlighting the importance of gender studies courses, providing low-stakes activism opportunities, promoting egalitarian cross-gender relationships, and protecting survivors of gender-based violence to encourage transformative understanding of gender issues. The overarching message emphasizes the relevance and impact of feminism in influencing men's awareness of their identities and social positions.

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I was initially interested really

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in the men's rights movement.

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I had come across them online.

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Um, and that movement, you know, the foundational belief is

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that, men are disadvantaged

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or discriminated against in our society

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by virtue of their gender.

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Um, and that women are privileged.

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And feminism has really established this gender order

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where men are disadvantaged.

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And, you know, I was interested in how men come

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to the movement, how they come to believe in its ideology,

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and why they participate in, you know, both online

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and in-person activism that, you know, would really,

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exacerbate gender inequality

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as social scientists understand it.

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Um, and then when it came time to do this research,

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I thought, feminist men were a really

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interesting comparison case.

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Um, of course, feminist men, you know, believe

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that women are disadvantaged and discriminated against,

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and that they themselves as men, are privileged.

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Um, and, you know, of course their activism would,

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you know, hopefully aim

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to reduce gender inequality as we understand it.

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Um, and so, you know, I thought these two groups

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of men were really on different sides

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of the spectrum in terms of

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how men understand gender inequality

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and, you know, what their activism could do

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for gender equality.

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For this, book, I conducted 62 interviews

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with people I identify as men.

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Um, half of whom identified either as, you know, feminist

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activists or pro-feminist.

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Um, and then also, you know, the other half identifying

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as men's rights activists

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or advocates, all of them living in the United States.

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Um, and I did semi-structured interviews, so I asked them,

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you know, a lot

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of different questions about their experiences as men,

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their perceptions as men, their understandings

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of gender inequality, the type of activism they did.

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Um, and what I focus on most on the book is the, the story

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of how they came to their movement, either feminism

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or men rights, activism.

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Um, and I was really, you know,

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in analyzing those interviews, I was really looking for,

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similarities and differences across and between the groups.

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Um, and then, you know, I was really trying

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to understand the deeper story of their motivation

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for joining these movements.

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Um, each man, each man had, you know, their own unique,

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reason for becoming part of their movement.

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Um, but the theme that emerged, you know,

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the deeper story, the implicit story

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is what I was really looking for.

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You know, the men I interviewed who identify as feminists,

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you know, a lot of them would define that as,

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understanding that they as men have privilege, and

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Wanting to in some way challenge that privilege,

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and work for gender equality.

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Um, the men I interviewed

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who are mens rights activists would actually understand

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their identities as activists in a very similar way, right?

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Um, except of course, they believe

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that men are disadvantaged.

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So, you know, many

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of them would say being a men's rights activist,

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meaning means understanding, that

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feminist perception of the world is wrong, that

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men are disadvantaged.

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Um, and being a,

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a men's rights activist is really about knowing that

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and also potentially, you know, engaging in activism to

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improve men's position.

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My initial interest in the men's rights movement was kind

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of a curiosity about how a person can come to see,

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the world according to that ideology.

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Um, you know, to see the world as stacked against men,

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when, you know, a social scientist, there's just all

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of this evidence that, you know, our society's

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privileged men at, at work, at home, on the street,

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you know, in all, in all kinds of realms.

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Um, and so that was absolutely part

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of the motivation for this project.

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Um, you know, what I really focus on in the book is the

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similarities in feminist men's

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and men's rights activists reasons

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for joining their movements.

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Um, and so for men's rights activists, what that looks like,

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is, you know, being confronted with this idea

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that men are privileged

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or learning that people might think of you as privileged

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because you're a man,

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and experiencing some real negative emotions

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because of that, right?

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That, that idea that they could be privileged really,

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clashes with their idea of themselves.

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You know, they don't think of themselves as, people

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who are privileged or,

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or people who benefit from other people's oppression.

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Um, and so it, it causes them a lot of negative emotions,

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discomfort, anger,

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and it's, it's really a threat

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to their identity, their sense of self.

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Um, and so men's rights activism for them really serves

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as a, a strategy for navigating those emotions.

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Um, and so, you know, for, for men

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who joined the men's rights movement, they're able to,

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make this claim that they're not privileged,

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and in fact, they're victims of the gender system,

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and so they're really morally blameless, right?

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And that strategy allows them to negotiate those feelings.

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I really focus on the similarities

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between the men in these two groups,

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how they came to this movement.

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Um, and so feminist men, the story is very similar

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to the story for men's rights activists, in a way

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that was surprising to me, me

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when I was doing this research.

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Um, so what I find is that the men who, you know,

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eventually came to identify

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with the feminist movement had very similar

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narratives about being confronted with this idea

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of their own privilege.

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You know, because their men also,

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because, you know, they might be straight or white,

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and having to grapple with that, right?

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That causing them a host of emotions

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that they needed to resolve.

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Um, and so the argument in the book is that gender activism,

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whether it's feminism

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or the men's rights movement, is

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what I call privilege renegotiation strategy.

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It's a way for them to renegotiate their identity,

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their privilege in this world that's,

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more cognizant of privilege, right?

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Where we're talking about privilege more.

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Um, and so for feminist men, when they identify

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with feminism, they're able to, think of themselves

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and show other people that their exceptions to this rule,

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that men are privileged, maybe immoral because of that.

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Um, and so they're able really to portray themselves

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and feel like good moral men,

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as a result of their feminism.

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There are, a couple recommendations that come out

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of the book about how, you know, we can use the findings

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to, to foster a more, inclusive future.

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Um, I think one thing that comes out of the book, is

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that, gender studies courses, sociology courses,

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other social science courses were really important

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to showing feminist men the extent of gender inequality

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and, convincing them

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that something had to be done about it.

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Um, and so one thing we can do is make sure

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that those programs have funding, for example,

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for in the United States tenure track lines, so

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that instructors can continue doing

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that really important work,

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you know, related to those courses.

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The other thing I find is

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that when those courses are really concrete

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and relevant to students lived experiences,

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they're more effective.

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Um, so, you know, often we might teach courses on work life

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balance, and students need to know that,

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but it's pretty far removed from their experience

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as students at that point.

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So, you know, courses on, for example,

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sexual assault on college campuses,

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or, you know, masculinity

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and athletics, those are a little more relevant to students

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and, and help them understand more.

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Um, I think another, lesson from the book,

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is what feminist organizations can do

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to leverage men's feminism more effectively.

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Um, so one of those things is, providing

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low stakes activism opportunities to men, maybe even

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by partnering with instructors

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who are teaching these courses,

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Um, and then providing a path for on-ramping that activism

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to more higher stakes labor intensive things, right?

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To get them more deeply engaged in the movement.

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The final lesson, I wanna mention is,

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what I find is that cross-gender relationships

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are also really important for teaching men, about,

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you know, the nature of gender inequality.

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Um, but really importantly, those relationships had

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to be egalitarian for them

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to be really transformative for men's thinking.

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We know, you know, for example, in workplaces,

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cross-gender relationships are often not egalitarian just

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by the nature of, you know, hierarchy at work.

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Um, and so I think, you know, folks need to think about

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how can we make campuses

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and workplaces more egalitarian

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to foster those generative relationships.

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Um, and one thing I think we can do is putting in place

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really strong protections for survivors

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of sexual assault and harassment.

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You know, doing that really sets the stage

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for those egalitarian relationships to form.

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There are a couple takeaways from the book.

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Uh, the first one really being that feminism is alive

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and well and has a very powerful impact in terms of,

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even how the most privileged people in society think about

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themselves and, and navigate their identities.

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Um, this book is really about how feminism has,

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almost forced men to think more about themselves, right?

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And their masculinity

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and their straightness and their whiteness.

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Um, and I think that's really promising, right?

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That's interesting. Um, another takeaway from this book,

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I think is that, you know, more men are identifying

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as feminists, and that's really good news, even though a lot

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of the book is about the limitations of men's feminism.

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Um, you know, that men are identifying

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with feminism is really important, you know,

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materially and culturally.

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Um, and then the third takeaway is a little

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less optimistic, right?

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That men's feminism is less than ideal.

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And so we need to think about ways to,

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leverage it more effectively.

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So I hope readers kind of take away some

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of the lessons from the book.

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How can we do that? Uh,

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and in particular, I hope men read this book,

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and think about maybe the more subconscious motivations,

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for why they identify with feminism

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and use it really as an opportunity to reflect about

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how they can be engaging in more meaningful work.

Understanding Men's Perspectives on Gender Inequality

00:00:00 - I was initially interested really in the men's rights movement. I had come across them online. and that movement, you know, the foundational belief is that, men are disadvantaged or discriminated against in our society by virtue of their gender. and that women are privileged. And feminism has really established this gender order where men are disadvantaged. And, you know, I was interested in how men come to the movement, how they come to believe in its ideology,
00:00:35 - and in-person activism that, you know, would really, exacerbate gender inequality as social scientists understand it. and then when it came time to do this research, I thought, feminist men were a really interesting comparison case. of course, feminist men, you know, believe that women are disadvantaged and discriminated against, and that they themselves as men, are privileged. and, you know, of course their activism would,
00:01:08 - to reduce gender inequality as we understand it. and so, you know, I thought these two groups of men were really on different sides of the spectrum in terms of how men understand gender inequality and, you know, what their activism could do for gender equality. For this, book, I conducted 62 interviews with people I identify as men. half of whom identified either as, you know, feminist activists or pro-feminist.
00:01:41 - as men's rights activists or advocates, all of them living in the United States. and I did semi-structured interviews, so I asked them, you know, a lot of different questions about their experiences as men, their perceptions as men, their understandings of gender inequality, the type of activism they did. and what I focus on most on the book is the, the story of how they came to their movement, either feminism
00:02:10 - and I was really, you know, in analyzing those interviews, I was really looking for, similarities and differences across and between the groups. and then, you know, I was really trying to understand the deeper story of their motivation for joining these movements. each man, each man had, you know, their own unique, reason for becoming part of their movement.
00:02:43 - the deeper story, the implicit story is what I was really looking for. You know, the men I interviewed who identify as feminists, you know, a lot of them would define that as, understanding that they as men have privilege, and Wanting to in some way challenge that privilege, and work for gender equality. the men I interviewed who are mens rights activists would actually understand

Men's Rights Activism vs. Feminist Perspectives

00:03:14 - except of course, they believe that men are disadvantaged. So, you know, many of them would say being a men's rights activist, meaning means understanding, that feminist perception of the world is wrong, that men are disadvantaged. and being a, a men's rights activist is really about knowing that and also potentially, you know, engaging in activism to improve men's position.
00:03:45 - of a curiosity about how a person can come to see, the world according to that ideology. you know, to see the world as stacked against men, when, you know, a social scientist, there's just all of this evidence that, you know, our society's privileged men at, at work, at home, on the street, you know, in all, in all kinds of realms. and so that was absolutely part
00:04:16 - you know, what I really focus on in the book is the similarities in feminist men's and men's rights activists reasons for joining their movements. and so for men's rights activists, what that looks like, is, you know, being confronted with this idea that men are privileged or learning that people might think of you as privileged because you're a man,
00:04:48 - because of that, right? That, that idea that they could be privileged really, clashes with their idea of themselves. You know, they don't think of themselves as, people who are privileged or, or people who benefit from other people's oppression. and so it, it causes them a lot of negative emotions, discomfort, anger, and it's, it's really a threat to their identity, their sense of self.
00:05:19 - as a, a strategy for navigating those emotions. and so, you know, for, for men who joined the men's rights movement, they're able to, make this claim that they're not privileged, and in fact, they're victims of the gender system, and so they're really morally blameless, right? And that strategy allows them to negotiate those feelings. I really focus on the similarities between the men in these two groups,
00:05:49 - and so feminist men, the story is very similar to the story for men's rights activists, in a way that was surprising to me, me when I was doing this research. so what I find is that the men who, you know, eventually came to identify with the feminist movement had very similar narratives about being confronted with this idea of their own privilege. You know, because their men also, because, you know, they might be straight or white, and having to grapple with that, right?

Renegotiating Gender Privilege Through Activism

00:06:21 - that they needed to resolve. and so the argument in the book is that gender activism, whether it's feminism or the men's rights movement, is what I call privilege renegotiation strategy. It's a way for them to renegotiate their identity, their privilege in this world that's, more cognizant of privilege, right? Where we're talking about privilege more. and so for feminist men, when they identify
00:06:53 - and show other people that their exceptions to this rule, that men are privileged, maybe immoral because of that. and so they're able really to portray themselves and feel like good moral men, as a result of their feminism. There are, a couple recommendations that come out of the book about how, you know, we can use the findings to, to foster a more, inclusive future.
00:07:25 - that, gender studies courses, sociology courses, other social science courses were really important to showing feminist men the extent of gender inequality and, convincing them that something had to be done about it. and so one thing we can do is make sure that those programs have funding, for example, for in the United States tenure track lines, so that instructors can continue doing
00:07:56 - you know, related to those courses. The other thing I find is that when those courses are really concrete and relevant to students lived experiences, they're more effective. so, you know, often we might teach courses on work life balance, and students need to know that, but it's pretty far removed from their experience as students at that point. So, you know, courses on, for example, sexual assault on college campuses,
00:08:26 - and athletics, those are a little more relevant to students and, and help them understand more. I think another, lesson from the book, is what feminist organizations can do to leverage men's feminism more effectively. so one of those things is, providing low stakes activism opportunities to men, maybe even by partnering with instructors who are teaching these courses,
00:09:00 - to more higher stakes labor intensive things, right? To get them more deeply engaged in the movement. The final lesson, I wanna mention is, what I find is that cross-gender relationships are also really important for teaching men, about, you know, the nature of gender inequality. but really importantly, those relationships had

Transforming Men's Perspectives on Gender Equality

00:09:30 - to be really transformative for men's thinking. We know, you know, for example, in workplaces, cross-gender relationships are often not egalitarian just by the nature of, you know, hierarchy at work. and so I think, you know, folks need to think about how can we make campuses and workplaces more egalitarian to foster those generative relationships. and one thing I think we can do is putting in place
00:10:04 - of sexual assault and harassment. You know, doing that really sets the stage for those egalitarian relationships to form. There are a couple takeaways from the book. the first one really being that feminism is alive and well and has a very powerful impact in terms of, even how the most privileged people in society think about themselves and, and navigate their identities. this book is really about how feminism has,
00:10:38 - And their masculinity and their straightness and their whiteness. and I think that's really promising, right? That's interesting. another takeaway from this book, I think is that, you know, more men are identifying as feminists, and that's really good news, even though a lot of the book is about the limitations of men's feminism. you know, that men are identifying
00:11:07 - materially and culturally. and then the third takeaway is a little less optimistic, right? That men's feminism is less than ideal. And so we need to think about ways to, leverage it more effectively. So I hope readers kind of take away some of the lessons from the book. How can we do that? and in particular, I hope men read this book, and think about maybe the more subconscious motivations,
00:11:43 - and use it really as an opportunity to reflect about how they can be engaging in more meaningful work.

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