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How can leadership be reimagined beyond traditional masculine norms to embrace ethics, gender diversity, and the physical body?

Image courtesy of interviewee. November 25, 2024

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This video discusses the concepts of control, conquest, and competition in leadership, emphasizing the individualistic approach prevalent in traditional leadership literature. It challenges the notion that masculinity is exclusively gendered, arguing instead that masculinity operates as a universal norm that influences both men and women in leadership roles. This video traditional masculine leadership is characterized by rationality, individualism, and dualistic separations (mind/body, male/female).

The speaker suggests that many leadership theories suffer from overly individualistic perspectives which rely on traditional masculine traits, creating challenges in effective leadership. They propose a notion of "embodied reasoning," integrating mind and body, as well as breaking down gender binaries to recognize the relational nature of leadership. In crises, the emphasis on leadership often highlights the limitations and failures of traditional leaders, who wrongly assume their authority includes sole responsibility for solutions.

This video critiques common leadership recommendations as lacking effectiveness due to their focus on personal traits rather than communal or relational dynamics. It discusses the role of charisma in leadership—recognizing its engaging qualities while also noting its individualistic nature. The perspective on ethics highlights the importance of self-care for ethical leadership, emphasizing that individuals are defined through their relationships with others.

Finally, it touches on the author's views on gender and research methodologies, advocating for a more embodied approach that recognizes the interconnections between researchers and their subjects, breaking away from traditional notions of objectivity. Overall, the text calls for a rethinking of leadership that appreciates collective dynamics and rejects rigid gender constructs.

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Here are five key points derived from the video:

1. **Individualism and Leadership**: The video emphasizes that traditional leadership literature is characterized by competitive individualism, focusing on masculine traits like control, conquest, and competition. This individualistic approach is critiqued for fostering a reliance on singular authority figures rather than encompassing a more collective understanding of leadership.

2. **Masculinity as a Norm**: The author posits that masculinity should not be viewed merely as a gendered concept but as a dominant societal norm that influences leadership styles in both Western and Eastern societies. To be recognized as a leader, individuals often feel pressured to conform to masculine norms.

3. **Dualism in Leadership Theories**: The video discusses the dualistic separations found in conventional leadership theories, such as mind vs. body and male vs. female. This dualism leads to a highly rational and disembodied approach to leadership, which neglects the emotional and relational aspects necessary for effective leadership.

4. **Embodied Reasoning**: The author argues for a shift toward "embodied reasoning," which integrates mind and body as well as subject and object, breaking down the rigid gender binary. This approach emphasizes the relational aspects of leadership and recognizes that leadership is a collective process that energizes all involved rather than being the sole property of one individual.

5. **Critique of Conventional Power Dynamics**: The video critiques conventional notions of power, which are often viewed as repressive. Instead, it suggests that power can be creative and productive, encouraging a more positive understanding of leadership that involves caring for oneself and others in relationships, thus advocating for a more inclusive and ethical approach to leadership practices. Additionally, it highlights the pitfalls of relying on individual leaders to solve crises and the importance of collective resilience and responsibility during such times.

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Here are some key quotes from the video that encapsulate the main ideas discussed:

1. **On Leadership and Individualism:**
- "This is what the leadership literature is extremely individualistic. So it's about competitive individualism rather than just competition."

2. **On Masculinity:**
- "I don't think masculinity is a gendered concept. It is more of a norm, a norm that is universal in our societies."

3. **On Masculine Norms in Leadership:**
- "In order to become a leader, very often they have to display masculine norms, masculine senses of control, conquest, and competition."

4. **On Dualism and Disembodiment:**
- "Masculine leadership being highly cerebral, highly rational, linear, not rational in any embodied sense."

5. **On Embodied Reasoning:**
- "Embodied reasoning involves an integration of the mind and the body, but not only an integration of the mind and body, but also an integration of subject and object."

6. **On Collective Leadership:**
- "Leadership is not the property of the individual who’s so-called leading. It is the property of everyone and we're all embodied in relationship with each other."

7. **On Crises and Leadership Dynamics:**
- "Everyone concentrates on leadership when there's a crisis. But why is there? Very often crises are caused by the leaders themselves."

8. **On the Illusion of Leadership Control:**
- "They assume that leadership gives them that kind of authority to be all knowing, and yet they are lost in many ways."

9. **On the Nature of Power:**
- "The conception of power is being treated in the literature as being oppressing people... but it can be creative and innovative."

10. **On the Self and Relationships:**
- "The self is a collective. We are only ourselves through our relationships with others."

11. **On the Gender Binary:**
- "I think the gender binary is a real problem. It creates all sorts [of issues]."

12. **On Methodology and Engagement:**
- "You can't be objective if you are engaged; you are part of your research."

These quotes highlight the complexities of leadership, the critique of individualistic and masculine norms, the integration of mind and body, and the relational aspects of identity and power.

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The three concepts concept, of control, conquest,

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and competition in the sense that they are all

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enga, they're all involved with an individualistic approach.

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This, this is what the leadership literature is

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extremely individualistic.

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So it's about competitive individualism rather than just,

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just com competition.

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Um, and I also need

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to make a qualification about masculinity

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because there is a tendency to assume that masculinity

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is all about men.

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And, and I don't think masculinity is a gendered concept.

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It is, it is more of a norm, a norm that is

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universal in, in, in our societies,

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certainly western societies,

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but probably also eastern societies as well.

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Um, and it, it's a very, it's a very dominant norm so

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that women as well as men

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can be masculine in their approach,

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and particularly in relation to ship to leadership.

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In order to become a, a leader, very often they have to

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display masculine norms, masculine senses

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of con control, conquest, and competition.

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Uh, and that is how they, they achieve their,

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their roles in, in leadership.

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So in terms of, how it, of

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how it has affected leadership, this, this kind of approach,

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it's, it's basically that it sees

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the, cognition or,

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or it, it draws on upon a separation of mind

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and body, but also a number of other separations of

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male and female, or men and women,

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and individual and other.

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And there's always a separation between these ideas of,

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of, of the two, what we call a dualism in, in the literature

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and ontological dualism.

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And, this, this

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therefore results in

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masculine leadership being highly cerebral, highly

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rational, linear, rational, not, not rational in any

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reasoned way, but a, a very linear approach to rationality.

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Um, and this,

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and as a result of all this, it is usually disembodied.

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Now, in most of the, most of the literature,

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most of the literature on leadership, I should say it,

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it is, takes this form.

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There are exceptions

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and a few of the exceptions I I could talk about, such

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as charisma, the charismatic approach to leadership or the,

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or the relational approach to leadership.

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But these are, are themselves quite,

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distinct from, from the,

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the conventional masculine leadership.

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But they're nevertheless very often still masculine.

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And they're masculine in the sense of being still concerned

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with control and, and conquest

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and competition, and very individualistic.

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It contrasts with what I would consider to be,

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masculine reasoning, which is very cerebral and, and,

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and this dualism between the mind and the body.

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Um, and embodied reasoning involves a,

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an integration of the mind and the body,

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but not only an integration of the mind and the body,

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but also an integration of subject and object

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or I, and dub

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and particularly breaks down this gender binary

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whereby, you know, men are very, well, you know,

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men are from Mars and yeah, women for Venus, that kind of,

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that kind of argument, that kind of Judaism,

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but it breaks all that down.

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And embodied reasoning, involves

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what I would call in the literature effect

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and effect is this intangible notion

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of the, in-between space, between individuals,

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between mind

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and body, between,

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men and women.

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So it is something that you are,

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in a sense, the, the intangibility of it is,

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is very difficult to grasp.

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But, but the best examples I think you can draw from,

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from everyday life is love.

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That would be a classic example of

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where there is an in-between space

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between the two individuals, you know,

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and it's not, it's not a property of one individual

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or the other individual.

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It is something that lies in between.

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Uh, and another example would be where people begin to laugh

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and they don't quite know why they're laughing.

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They don't really understand why they're laughing,

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but they, the spontaneous laughter,

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and that will be a classic example of the in-between space

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that we would want to call effect because of and effect.

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What it, what it does affect is, is that it, it,

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energizes people so it energize.

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So in terms of leadership, it energizes, energizes everyone.

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But the leadership is not the property of the individual

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who's so-called leading.

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It is, you know, it is the property of everyone

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and we're all engaged in it,

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and we're all embodied in relationship with each other.

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And the interesting thing about crises is that

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leadership comes to the front, it comes to the fore.

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Everybody concentrates on leadership when there's a crisis.

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But why is there, why?

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I mean, very often crises are caused by

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often the leaders themselves.

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And I would argue that partly it is

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because they see their need, they see leadership

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as their own possession.

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It's, it's like, like the house they own, it's a property.

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And in, in doing so, they're then in the situation

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where they have to be supreme superior.

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They have to be all, they have to be able to

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resolve all problems,

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but they, they can't, there is no such thing.

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There is not, not a ready solution to any problem.

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And the fact that leaders then

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assume it's their responsibility to find that solution

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creates all sorts of problems.

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And what, what happens then is often

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they follow fads and fashions.

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And we see that particularly with the financial crisis,

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the global financial crisis, you know, in other words,

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they were supporting subprime mortgages,

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collateral, debt obligations, various

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kinds of, toxic, what you would call toxic,

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financial mechanisms, lending on the basis

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that that with no security at the back of the lending.

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And ultimately, you know, it led to a disaster.

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And I, I can give you an example where, where I spoke to,

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people in, in one

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of the major financial institutions in, in Britain,

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around, well before it happened,

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before the crisis took place.

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And I was talking about the, the danger of being attracted

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to all these, different,

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you know, financial mechanisms and,

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and suggesting that, you know, this could be disastrous,

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and they poo-pooed it.

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They were not interested whatsoever.

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And of course, the crisis occurred, about 12 months

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or 18 months later.

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They don't know at all.

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This is the big, big problem that they, they are,

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they assume that leadership gives them that kind

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of authority to be all knowing,

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and yet they are lost in many ways.

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And that's why the literature is full of recommendations

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of how to be a good leader.

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And none of them really work

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because they're all very individualistic.

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They're all given character trays,

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personalities, and all these various things.

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And the only ones that do work, I mean, I would say

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charisma can work, but because it is quite embodied.

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But the problem with charisma is that, and,

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and we've seen this with the latest example of,

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of Donald Trump winning, winning the US election, is that

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although it's, it works in the sense that it,

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it en engages people,

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it's still very individualistic that the leader Trump,

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in other words, is the hero.

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And, and he, he is, he has followers, not,

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not co participants in the leadership activity

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for CO is very interesting in the sense

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that he has a conception of power

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that is not necessarily just repressive.

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I mean, traditionally the conception

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of power is being treated in the literature

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as being oppressing people, repressing being repressive.

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He has this conception of power that is productive.

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So, and particularly it's productive of, of subjects.

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Now he does, he recognizes that he doesn't,

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he doesn't deny that there is repression

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and that there is, control and conquest

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and competition in all of this.

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But he, he does recognize that it can be creative

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and innovative and, and,

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and productive in that sense, in the more positive sense.

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Um, and in terms of, the notion of,

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ethics, what, where I think he is particularly strong

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is in is book the care of the Self.

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And when he talks about the care of the self, he is,

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he is really considering that it's important

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to care for yourself

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before you, you can ever be ethical.

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You know, ethics demands that we care for ourselves,

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but in caring for yourself, you're caring for others

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by definition, because the self doesn't exist as an

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a discreet entity, even though individualistic theorists

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and leadership theories do treat it as, as an individual

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idea, concept, the self is a collective.

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It's it, we are only ourselves

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through our relationships with others.

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So it's about a relational conception of power in terms

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of resistance to that power.

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He does argue that one of the issues is that

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power, ex power is exercise in such a way

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that it does produce subjects, in other words,

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produces identities.

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It produces our identities.

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And one of the things he, he's really concerned about is

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that we refuse to accept the identity that is

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imposed upon us through power.

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So we exercise power ourselves, you know, in that sense,

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you seeing our power be productive in the other way, in, in,

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in resistance is only a form of power.

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It's just operating in the, the opposite way in

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in which conventional motions of power derived

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Quick follow up, just in terms of gender.

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What about in terms of referenceing gender with ko?

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Well, the thing with KO is he had, I mean,

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and I've written extensively about this in,

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in other sources, and not in this book,

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but elsewhere, he,

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he doesn't believe in gender in many ways.

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And that may be partly because he was gay. I don't know.

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I I have no idea. I'm, I'm surmising that.

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Um, but so he wants to break down the gender binary,

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and I agree with that.

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'cause I think the gender binary is a real problem.

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A problem, you know, it, it creates all sorts

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of problems in society.

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So I don't, I don't really believe that we should be

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promoting the gender binary

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and in, in the sense that e resists that it's a kind

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of resistance to power

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because gender is constructed by power.

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You know, it, it, you know, men, men, I mean the, the,

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the interesting thing about leadership is that men often

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will see that is the preserve of men.

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That, that that leadership is the preserve of men.

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And, you know, they get threatened when women, you know,

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and, and the example of the

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American election is recently is they, you had a woman

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and not, not even, you know, a, a a black woman and,

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and she's been rejected by, by the masses of the population.

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And you know, it's partly

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but more rejected by men than, than by women.

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But nevertheless, they were rejected by some women.

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The thing about, methodology is that traditionally

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in, in the literature, again, methods

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are very much about separating the investigator

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from the investigator.

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So-called,

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and I would prefer to call them participants rather than,

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than, than objects of investigation.

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Um, but traditionally that, that separation's all,

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and there's this, it's this notion of objectivity.

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You know, you can't be objective if you are engaged

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or involved with, with the, the people that you are,

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you know, you are part of your research.

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But this is quite nonsensical really,

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because we always are engaged,

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even though we might pretend we're not, you know,

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you can't avoid, and,

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and, you know, in any activity, you can never avoid being

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an embodied person, even though you are denying it.

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You constantly denying it.

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And in terms of, of, of, of gender,

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and, and ethics.

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I mean, being, I I, I've written a book

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with a colleague called Embodied Methods,

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and this goes into much greater detail about how

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to be embodied in your research, research.

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But it, it recognizes that you are,

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you are not separate from the person you are researching

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or the people you're researching.

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You are, you engage with them and they engage with you,

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and you learn from them and, and, and they learn from you.

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You know, it's a mutual arrangement

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and it's, it's more embodied way of,

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of doing research.

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And it's the opposite of what most research is.

Masculinity and Individualism in Leadership Dynamics

00:00:00 - The three concepts concept, of control, conquest, and competition in the sense that they are all enga, they're all involved with an individualistic approach. This, this is what the leadership literature is extremely individualistic. So it's about competitive individualism rather than just, just com competition. and I also need to make a qualification about masculinity

00:00:36 - is all about men. And, and I don't think masculinity is a gendered concept. It is, it is more of a norm, a norm that is universal in, in, in our societies, certainly western societies, but probably also eastern societies as well. and it, it's a very, it's a very dominant norm so

00:01:06 - can be masculine in their approach, and particularly in relation to ship to leadership. In order to become a, a leader, very often they have to display masculine norms, masculine senses of con control, conquest, and competition. and that is how they, they achieve their, their roles in, in leadership. So in terms of, how it, of

Exploring Dualism in Leadership: The Mind-Body Separation

00:01:40 - it's, it's basically that it sees the, cognition or, or it, it draws on upon a separation of mind and body, but also a number of other separations of male and female, or men and women, and individual and other.

00:02:11 - of, of the two, what we call a dualism in, in the literature and ontological dualism. And, this, this therefore results in masculine leadership being highly cerebral, highly rational, linear, rational, not, not rational in any

00:02:42 - and this, and as a result of all this, it is usually disembodied. Now, in most of the, most of the literature, most of the literature on leadership, I should say it, it is, takes this form. There are exceptions and a few of the exceptions I I could talk about, such

Rethinking Masculine Leadership: A Shift Towards Embodied Reasoning

00:03:14 - or the relational approach to leadership. But these are, are themselves quite, distinct from, from the, the conventional masculine leadership. But they're nevertheless very often still masculine. And they're masculine in the sense of being still concerned with control and, and conquest

00:03:46 - It contrasts with what I would consider to be, masculine reasoning, which is very cerebral and, and, and this dualism between the mind and the body. and embodied reasoning involves a, an integration of the mind and the body, but not only an integration of the mind and the body, but also an integration of subject and object

00:04:19 - and particularly breaks down this gender binary whereby, you know, men are very, well, you know, men are from Mars and yeah, women for Venus, that kind of, that kind of argument, that kind of Judaism, but it breaks all that down. And embodied reasoning, involves what I would call in the literature effect

Exploring the Intangible In-Between: Laughter, Leadership, and Collective Energy

00:04:51 - of the, in-between space, between individuals, between mind and body, between, men and women. So it is something that you are, in a sense, the, the intangibility of it is, is very difficult to grasp. But, but the best examples I think you can draw from,

00:05:22 - That would be a classic example of where there is an in-between space between the two individuals, you know, and it's not, it's not a property of one individual or the other individual. It is something that lies in between. and another example would be where people begin to laugh and they don't quite know why they're laughing. They don't really understand why they're laughing, but they, the spontaneous laughter,

00:05:55 - that we would want to call effect because of and effect. What it, what it does affect is, is that it, it, energizes people so it energize. So in terms of leadership, it energizes, energizes everyone. But the leadership is not the property of the individual who's so-called leading. It is, you know, it is the property of everyone

Leadership Dynamics in Crisis Situations

00:06:25 - and we're all embodied in relationship with each other. And the interesting thing about crises is that leadership comes to the front, it comes to the fore. Everybody concentrates on leadership when there's a crisis. But why is there, why? I mean, very often crises are caused by often the leaders themselves. And I would argue that partly it is

00:06:58 - as their own possession. It's, it's like, like the house they own, it's a property. And in, in doing so, they're then in the situation where they have to be supreme superior. They have to be all, they have to be able to resolve all problems, but they, they can't, there is no such thing. There is not, not a ready solution to any problem.

00:07:30 - assume it's their responsibility to find that solution creates all sorts of problems. And what, what happens then is often they follow fads and fashions. And we see that particularly with the financial crisis, the global financial crisis, you know, in other words, they were supporting subprime mortgages, collateral, debt obligations, various

Warnings Ignored: The Fragility of Financial Leadership

00:08:05 - financial mechanisms, lending on the basis that that with no security at the back of the lending. And ultimately, you know, it led to a disaster. And I, I can give you an example where, where I spoke to, people in, in one of the major financial institutions in, in Britain, around, well before it happened,

00:08:35 - And I was talking about the, the danger of being attracted to all these, different, you know, financial mechanisms and, and suggesting that, you know, this could be disastrous, and they poo-pooed it. They were not interested whatsoever. And of course, the crisis occurred, about 12 months or 18 months later. They don't know at all.

00:09:07 - they assume that leadership gives them that kind of authority to be all knowing, and yet they are lost in many ways. And that's why the literature is full of recommendations of how to be a good leader. And none of them really work because they're all very individualistic. They're all given character trays, personalities, and all these various things.

The Dual Nature of Charisma in Leadership

00:09:41 - charisma can work, but because it is quite embodied. But the problem with charisma is that, and, and we've seen this with the latest example of, of Donald Trump winning, winning the US election, is that although it's, it works in the sense that it, it en engages people, it's still very individualistic that the leader Trump,

00:10:12 - And, and he, he is, he has followers, not, not co participants in the leadership activity for CO is very interesting in the sense that he has a conception of power that is not necessarily just repressive. I mean, traditionally the conception of power is being treated in the literature as being oppressing people, repressing being repressive.

00:10:46 - So, and particularly it's productive of, of subjects. Now he does, he recognizes that he doesn't, he doesn't deny that there is repression and that there is, control and conquest and competition in all of this. But he, he does recognize that it can be creative and innovative and, and, and productive in that sense, in the more positive sense.

Self-Care and Collective Identity in Ethics

00:11:19 - ethics, what, where I think he is particularly strong is in is book the care of the Self. And when he talks about the care of the self, he is, he is really considering that it's important to care for yourself before you, you can ever be ethical.

00:11:50 - but in caring for yourself, you're caring for others by definition, because the self doesn't exist as an a discreet entity, even though individualistic theorists and leadership theories do treat it as, as an individual idea, concept, the self is a collective. It's it, we are only ourselves through our relationships with others.

00:12:21 - of resistance to that power. He does argue that one of the issues is that power, ex power is exercise in such a way that it does produce subjects, in other words, produces identities. It produces our identities. And one of the things he, he's really concerned about is that we refuse to accept the identity that is

Rethinking Power and Gender Dynamics

00:12:52 - So we exercise power ourselves, you know, in that sense, you seeing our power be productive in the other way, in, in, in resistance is only a form of power. It's just operating in the, the opposite way in in which conventional motions of power derived Quick follow up, just in terms of gender. What about in terms of referenceing gender with ko? Well, the thing with KO is he had, I mean,

00:13:24 - in other sources, and not in this book, but elsewhere, he, he doesn't believe in gender in many ways. And that may be partly because he was gay. I don't know. I I have no idea. I'm, I'm surmising that. but so he wants to break down the gender binary, and I agree with that. 'cause I think the gender binary is a real problem. A problem, you know, it, it creates all sorts

00:13:56 - So I don't, I don't really believe that we should be promoting the gender binary and in, in the sense that e resists that it's a kind of resistance to power because gender is constructed by power. You know, it, it, you know, men, men, I mean the, the, the interesting thing about leadership is that men often will see that is the preserve of men. That, that that leadership is the preserve of men.

Gender Dynamics and Research Methodology

00:14:29 - and, and the example of the American election is recently is they, you had a woman and not, not even, you know, a, a a black woman and, and she's been rejected by, by the masses of the population. And you know, it's partly but more rejected by men than, than by women. But nevertheless, they were rejected by some women. The thing about, methodology is that traditionally

00:15:02 - are very much about separating the investigator from the investigator. So-called, and I would prefer to call them participants rather than, than, than objects of investigation. but traditionally that, that separation's all, and there's this, it's this notion of objectivity. You know, you can't be objective if you are engaged

00:15:34 - you know, you are part of your research. But this is quite nonsensical really, because we always are engaged, even though we might pretend we're not, you know, you can't avoid, and, and, you know, in any activity, you can never avoid being an embodied person, even though you are denying it. You constantly denying it.

Embodied Research Methods: A Mutual Engagement

00:16:04 - and, and ethics. I mean, being, I I, I've written a book with a colleague called Embodied Methods, and this goes into much greater detail about how to be embodied in your research, research. But it, it recognizes that you are, you are not separate from the person you are researching or the people you're researching. You are, you engage with them and they engage with you,

00:16:45 - You know, it's a mutual arrangement and it's, it's more embodied way of, of doing research. And it's the opposite of what most research is.

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