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Andrew Cobbing charts the shift from the early Japanese exploration of the outside world after centuries of self-imposed isolation, to the training of Japan’s first generation of international lawyers as the Meiji state embarked on reclaiming sovereign rights lost through the imposition of the treaty port regime.

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 7, 2024

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This video is a transcript of an interview discussing Japan's engagement with international law and its historical context, particularly during the 19th century. The speaker, Andrew, reflects on his motivations for contributing a chapter on Japan and international law to an edited volume, emphasizing both his academic background in this field and the significance of Japan's late entry into international legal discourse.

Key points include:
- Japan faced significant challenges due to its lack of experience with international treaties when it was confronted by Western powers in the mid-19th century, a period marked by the arrival of "black ships" (American vessels).
- The historical context prior to this was dominated by a Sinocentric world order where China held a central position, and Japan operated within a tribute system.
- The transition to international law involved substantial political and cultural shifts, necessitating the translation of Western legal concepts and practices into Japanese.
- Japanese authorities found the introduction of Western legal systems politically charged and contentious, leading to domestic tensions and reforms.
- Ultimately, Japan became the first non-Western country to revise unequal treaties and show its capabilities in the international legal arena, thereby establishing itself as a civilized nation in the eyes of Western powers.

Andrew also draws parallels between Japan's historical international relations and current global dynamics, suggesting that modern multipolarity has roots in Japan's 19th-century adaptations to international norms. The discussion concludes with reflections on the ongoing evolution of international law and state sovereignty.

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Here are some key quotes extracted from the video:

1. **Journey to International Law**:
- "I've come to international law in a roundabout route via Japanese diplomacy... But this naturally led me to... well, international law."

2. **Japan's Late Entry**:
- "Japan was a late comer to that particular field."

3. **Understanding the Convideo of International Law**:
- "You cannot understand international law going into the 20th century without... a piece about Japan to complete the volume."

4. **The Shift in World Order**:
- "Until then, the world order in East Asia was completely different from the one that we are familiar with today."

5. **Tribute System**:
- "I describe it, essentially as a signo centric world order based on what is often described as the tribute system."

6. **Encounters with Western Powers**:
- "They spoke a completely different language. They understood international relations in an entirely different way."

7. **Japan's Initial Response**:
- "They were forced to sign a treaty in a language they didn't understand."

8. **Cultural Differences in Legal Systems**:
- "There was no really real cultural tradition of codifying law or using... professional lawyers as a profession at all within Japan."

9. **The Role of Translation**:
- "Once these translations were rapidly put together from the 1860s onwards, then there was... a rapid development of Japanese law."

10. **Political Implications of Treaties**:
- "The fact that it was agreeing to these treaties in itself created a lot of... political tension in Japan."

11. **Transformation of Legal Practice**:
- "It was only from that moment that... general readers in Japan found a way into this new world."

12. **Japan's International Standing**:
- "They were the new kids on the block, but their contribution to the field was increasingly hard to deny."

13. **Multipolar Global Order**:
- "This idea of a multipolar global order is something that I think 19th century Japan's contribution towards allows us to see this within a broader picture."

These quotes reflect the key themes of the video, including Japan's unique entry into the field of international law, the cultural and political convideos that influenced this process, and the implications for both Japan and the broader international order.

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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I've come to international law in a roundabout route via

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Japanese diplomacy, with mainly the,

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the west in the 19th century.

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But this naturally led me to, well, international law

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because they found those Japanese diplomats at the time,

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found that they, they had to get their heads around what

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to them was a very new field.

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And what to me has was, has been quite a new field as well.

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But the invitation was, to contribute a chapter about,

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Japan

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and international law in, in a broader work

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crafting the international order.

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So international law is, is a broad and very old field,

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but it's mainly developed, from a a, a Eurocentric base,

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in the early modern period.

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And, now Japan wa was a late comer to, to

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that particular field.

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So I think, when I was invited to contribute

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to the chapter, they probably saw my, my piece

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as maybe an, an outlier within the work as a whole.

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But nevertheless, you, you cannot,

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understand international law going into the 20th century

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without, a piece about Japan to,

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complete the volume.

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So that, I guess that's why the invitation came along.

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And, in the end I thought, yeah, it's, it's got

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to feature there and this is something I do work on now.

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So that's why he took it up.

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Japan, as is quite widely known, was, was in a fix once the,

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the, the black, the black ships per black ships came along

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in the mid 19th century

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because, they had no, well,

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defense militarily against this.

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And when they were forced, under duress

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to sign a treaty, they have no, they have no experience

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of signing treaties either.

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This was just not how you did international relations

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in this part of the world in, in East Asia.

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Um, so the, the whole text of the treaties

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and the, the philosophy

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and the thinking behind putting these treaties together,

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was something that, well, the Europeans

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and Americans were familiar with.

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Um, treaties were quite commonplace there.

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But for Japan, this was new

02:24.925 --> 02:27.105
and difficult to get their heads around.

02:28.125 --> 02:31.585
Um, until then, the, the world order in

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East Asia was completely different from the one

02:35.105 --> 02:36.665
that we are familiar with today.

02:37.305 --> 02:40.785
I think in my chapter, I describe it, essentially as a,

02:40.785 --> 02:43.985
as a signo centric world order based on

02:44.215 --> 02:46.705
what is often described as the tribute system.

02:47.665 --> 02:50.865
Everyone understood that China was the most cultured,

02:50.865 --> 02:52.385
civilized place on the planet.

02:53.005 --> 02:57.185
Um, the Chinese allowed you to trade

02:57.185 --> 02:58.745
with them, and

02:58.885 --> 03:01.035
In return, they expected you to pay tribute.

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And this led to a kind of exchange of trade and tribute.

03:05.335 --> 03:09.155
And that's how well states, empires

03:09.255 --> 03:12.595
and kingdoms ordered their place in, this kind

03:12.595 --> 03:14.155
of hierarchy with China at the top.

03:15.135 --> 03:18.075
Um, Japan decided to kind of secede from

03:18.075 --> 03:20.355
that going into the early modern era under the,

03:20.355 --> 03:22.075
the Togo regime.

03:22.535 --> 03:24.675
But even then, they, the way

03:24.675 --> 03:27.355
that they formed their own international order, it,

03:27.415 --> 03:29.595
it used the same way of thinking

03:29.625 --> 03:31.715
that the same cultural terms, a kind

03:31.715 --> 03:35.315
of Japan centered world order whereby

03:35.315 --> 03:38.515
that they decided they would receive tribute instead,

03:38.615 --> 03:40.915
and they would be in the center of things in Edo,

03:40.915 --> 03:43.235
which is now Tokyo, the, the toga capital.

03:44.415 --> 03:47.635
Um, and so they received tribute essentially from

03:48.515 --> 03:51.755
satellite states kingdoms, like to the, the UQ kingdom,

03:51.755 --> 03:54.875
which is now Okinawa prefecture within Japan,

03:55.335 --> 03:58.915
and also, the Kingdom of Korea.

03:59.355 --> 04:01.035
Although the Koreans didn't think it was tributes,

04:01.175 --> 04:02.275
but it was contested.

04:02.575 --> 04:05.235
But that's, it created a picture in the minds

04:05.235 --> 04:07.475
of the Japanese whereby everything was safe.

04:07.505 --> 04:08.755
They were in control of their

04:08.755 --> 04:10.115
destiny, and they were at the center.

04:11.295 --> 04:16.155
And so when, other states, the, well, the Dutch,

04:17.015 --> 04:18.595
the French, the British,

04:18.695 --> 04:20.715
the Americans across the Pacific in the

04:20.715 --> 04:21.955
19th century came along.

04:22.345 --> 04:24.955
They spoke a completely different language.

04:25.065 --> 04:27.435
They understood international relations in

04:27.435 --> 04:28.635
an entirely different way.

04:29.615 --> 04:32.555
And by, yeah, by the 1850s, sixties,

04:32.805 --> 04:34.395
Japan could no longer ignore this.

04:35.465 --> 04:37.715
They were forced to sign a treaty in a

04:37.955 --> 04:39.075
language they didn't understand.

04:39.545 --> 04:41.035
They had to get their heads around it.

04:41.135 --> 04:43.995
It was a, a, a fairly standing start

04:43.995 --> 04:46.755
because there was no really real cultural tradition

04:46.755 --> 04:48.355
of codifying law

04:49.015 --> 04:53.155
or, using well, professional law lawyers as,

04:53.215 --> 04:56.395
as a profession as such at all within Japan.

04:57.255 --> 05:01.755
Um, so justice previously, yeah,

05:02.055 --> 05:05.355
not being a defined profession as such, it, it fell

05:05.355 --> 05:06.795
to the bureaucrats.

05:07.055 --> 05:11.075
Um, if you are in control of a particular area, then dealing

05:11.105 --> 05:12.315
with criminals in that

05:13.145 --> 05:15.755
area also came under your jurisdiction.

05:16.215 --> 05:18.555
So you had to read up a bit on the,

05:19.015 --> 05:20.755
the neo-Confucian philosophy,

05:20.765 --> 05:22.475
which framed that, the justice.

05:23.495 --> 05:27.155
But, there wasn't a, a, a coded coded law as such,

05:27.695 --> 05:32.635
or, a, a list of rules that any,

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professional lawyer as such would, would follow.

05:37.055 --> 05:41.035
Um, and that was a very different outlook to, to

05:41.505 --> 05:43.355
what they found, in the West.

05:43.735 --> 05:47.475
And, it was only when

05:48.275 --> 05:52.035
Japanese people started traveling abroad in the 1860s.

05:52.525 --> 05:54.955
Until then, because of their national seclusion

05:54.955 --> 05:56.275
policy, they had very little

05:56.545 --> 05:59.605
Firsthand experience of the outside world

06:00.105 --> 06:01.325
for the last few hundred years.

06:02.185 --> 06:06.845
And, in order to find out what was going on, they,

06:06.845 --> 06:09.885
they did actually start, sending,

06:11.115 --> 06:13.485
exploratory missions in the 1860s

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and found out very quickly, a whole range of things.

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But, but among these was, well, the existence of,

06:19.805 --> 06:21.005
of something called lawyers.

06:21.745 --> 06:25.645
And, and the, the penny dropped that this whole business

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of writing treaties have had this, this sort of,

06:29.565 --> 06:33.765
architecture of, well, heritage legacy

06:34.025 --> 06:35.365
and precedents beside it,

06:35.425 --> 06:37.565
and a whole bank of volumes of works

06:37.625 --> 06:39.085
and various international lawyers.

06:39.225 --> 06:40.645
It was a profession in itself,

06:41.145 --> 06:43.125
and it was only from that moment that, well,

06:43.155 --> 06:46.685
translation was the only way that that, that, that,

06:47.155 --> 06:49.965
general readers in Japan, found a,

06:50.045 --> 06:51.565
a way into that this new world.

06:52.975 --> 06:55.795
And, once these translations were rapidly put together

06:55.865 --> 06:59.875
from the 1860s onwards, then there was yeah,

07:00.235 --> 07:02.355
a rapid development of, Japanese

07:03.015 --> 07:05.635
law across a whole range, criminal, civil,

07:05.735 --> 07:08.435
but also including international law as well.

07:08.655 --> 07:10.155
It was highly controversial.

07:12.055 --> 07:15.835
Um, and it was politically charged.

07:16.915 --> 07:19.755
I mean, it was a very politically fragmented system.

07:20.655 --> 07:23.115
Uh, the treaty with the Americans

07:23.255 --> 07:25.875
and then following the Americans, the, the British,

07:25.935 --> 07:27.155
the French, the Dutch,

07:27.155 --> 07:28.275
and the Russians, they all followed up

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with their own treaties using the same language

07:30.635 --> 07:31.715
of international law.

07:32.695 --> 07:37.275
Um, but it was signed off by the AWA regime, which was

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not in a, a good way by the time.

07:40.175 --> 07:43.315
And the fact that it was agreeing to these,

07:43.315 --> 07:46.595
treaties in itself, created a lot of,

07:48.065 --> 07:51.075
political tension in Japan within 10 years

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of signing the 1858 unsaid treaties,

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that the regime was overthrown with a brief civil war.

07:57.135 --> 08:00.595
Um, so on the whole, the incumbent regime

08:00.595 --> 08:02.995
that they kept the small print under wraps, they,

08:03.295 --> 08:06.835
it wasn't something that, that was broadly advertised to

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Japanese society at large, knowledge being power.

08:10.865 --> 08:12.795
They had their own little think tank of people

08:12.815 --> 08:14.355
who were trying frantically

08:14.355 --> 08:15.835
to work out what this was all about.

08:16.655 --> 08:19.795
And, when the new regime comes in, again,

08:19.795 --> 08:22.035
they inherit this, loaded legacy.

08:22.385 --> 08:24.795
What have we signed up to? What does it mean?

08:25.775 --> 08:29.875
And, then they were in a race to, to really catch up to,

08:29.875 --> 08:33.755
to work out what it was, based on really,

08:33.975 --> 08:38.955
and find ways that they could, if they weren't going to,

08:39.415 --> 08:42.355
militarily contest these, these treaties,

08:42.355 --> 08:43.995
and they weren't in a position to do that.

08:43.995 --> 08:47.115
They had to be in a position to use the letter

08:47.175 --> 08:49.515
of the law literally to, to argue,

08:49.535 --> 08:52.155
for their own position, which leads into the campaign, to,

08:52.175 --> 08:54.875
to revise these treaties, which they managed to do within

08:55.425 --> 08:56.685
The space of 40 years.

08:56.785 --> 09:00.725
And the first non-Western state that actually manages to do

09:00.725 --> 09:04.805
that and, read itself of what was essentially a,

09:04.865 --> 09:08.815
an ex territorial regime on the lines of China

09:09.315 --> 09:10.615
and the Ottoman Empire

09:10.755 --> 09:15.655
and other places at the time, was certainly viewed by,

09:17.155 --> 09:21.135
the legist, the, the, the specialists, in Europe

09:21.315 --> 09:23.335
and America at the time when they,

09:24.725 --> 09:27.215
they were dismissive at the start of,

09:27.325 --> 09:30.815
Japan's Japanese lawyers pretensions to actually,

09:31.285 --> 09:32.375
join their profession.

09:32.515 --> 09:34.615
How, how could they do this from a standing start?

09:34.755 --> 09:39.415
It seemed impossible. But by, by the 1890s, they were,

09:39.595 --> 09:40.855
it was incontestable.

09:40.855 --> 09:43.455
They, they were taking part in conferences,

09:43.515 --> 09:46.415
in correspondence on sort of minutiae in the field.

09:47.275 --> 09:50.535
And, yeah, the, they were the new kids on the block,

09:50.715 --> 09:51.775
but their contribution

09:51.775 --> 09:54.815
to the field was increasingly hard to deny.

09:55.555 --> 09:58.615
Um, which given that this was the international order that,

09:58.675 --> 10:02.615
they themselves had created, put them in a bit

10:02.615 --> 10:05.455
of a fix reluctantly, they, they had to accept that.

10:05.885 --> 10:10.415
Yeah. Um, that Japanese lawyers

10:10.675 --> 10:12.615
and, and the Japanese state more broadly

10:12.915 --> 10:14.095
was joining the fault.

10:14.225 --> 10:17.575
These days, we often talk about a multipolar global order,

10:18.555 --> 10:20.895
and, quite glibly,

10:22.165 --> 10:25.935
various states throw this, this notion around,

10:26.355 --> 10:27.655
but it's not really new.

10:27.755 --> 10:30.575
It goes back to the start of the 20th century,

10:31.435 --> 10:32.895
at least.

10:33.155 --> 10:36.135
And if you look back within that context, you see, well,

10:36.305 --> 10:40.015
Japan, first of all, in addition to the European

10:40.075 --> 10:41.775
and American states taking part in,

10:41.775 --> 10:43.975
in this broader approach,

10:44.875 --> 10:47.375
to ordering international relations,

10:47.795 --> 10:50.575
and it probably speaks to that in the end,

10:50.625 --> 10:53.095
where we sit now in the 21st century and,

10:53.095 --> 10:57.995
and how we, how states,

10:58.485 --> 11:02.035
understand, their, their role within the,

11:02.055 --> 11:05.155
the international system, which is always contested,

11:05.655 --> 11:09.435
of course, it, it, it does, evolve over time

11:09.735 --> 11:14.155
and that, that's very much, the situation these days.

11:15.035 --> 11:16.995
I think, it is contested now,

11:17.175 --> 11:19.675
but, yeah, this idea

11:19.675 --> 11:23.435
of a multipolar global order is something that I think

11:24.125 --> 11:27.315
19th century Japan's contribution towards allows us

11:27.315 --> 11:28.915
to see this within a broader picture.

11:29.185 --> 11:32.035
It's not something which has happened overnight,

11:32.365 --> 11:33.755
since the end of the Cold War.

"Navigating International Law: Japan's Journey from Isolation to Engagement in the 19th Century"

00:00:00 - I've come to international law in a roundabout route via Japanese diplomacy, with mainly the, the west in the 19th century. But this naturally led me to, well, international law because they found those Japanese diplomats at the time, found that they, they had to get their heads around what to them was a very new field. And what to me has was, has been quite a new field as well. But the invitation was, to contribute a chapter about, Japan and international law in, in a broader work crafting the international order.
00:00:47 - but it's mainly developed, from a a, a Eurocentric base, in the early modern period. And, now Japan wa was a late comer to, to that particular field. So I think, when I was invited to contribute to the chapter, they probably saw my, my piece as maybe an, an outlier within the work as a whole. But nevertheless, you, you cannot, understand international law going into the 20th century without, a piece about Japan to, complete the volume.
00:01:28 - And, in the end I thought, yeah, it's, it's got to feature there and this is something I do work on now. So that's why he took it up. Japan, as is quite widely known, was, was in a fix once the, the, the black, the black ships per black ships came along in the mid 19th century because, they had no, well, defense militarily against this. And when they were forced, under duress to sign a treaty, they have no, they have no experience of signing treaties either. This was just not how you did international relations in this part of the world in, in East Asia.
00:02:09 - and the, the philosophy and the thinking behind putting these treaties together, was something that, well, the Europeans and Americans were familiar with. treaties were quite commonplace there. But for Japan, this was new and difficult to get their heads around. until then, the, the world order in East Asia was completely different from the one that we are familiar with today. I think in my chapter, I describe it, essentially as a, as a signo centric world order based on what is often described as the tribute system.
00:02:50 - civilized place on the planet. the Chinese allowed you to trade with them, and In return, they expected you to pay tribute. And this led to a kind of exchange of trade and tribute. And that's how well states, empires and kingdoms ordered their place in, this kind of hierarchy with China at the top. Japan decided to kind of secede from that going into the early modern era under the, the Togo regime. But even then, they, the way that they formed their own international order, it, it used the same way of thinking
00:03:31 - of Japan centered world order whereby that they decided they would receive tribute instead, and they would be in the center of things in Edo, which is now Tokyo, the, the toga capital. and so they received tribute essentially from satellite states kingdoms, like to the, the UQ kingdom, which is now Okinawa prefecture within Japan, and also, the Kingdom of Korea. Although the Koreans didn't think it was tributes, but it was contested. But that's, it created a picture in the minds of the Japanese whereby everything was safe. They were in control of their destiny, and they were at the center.

"Navigating Unfamiliar Waters: Japan's Encounter with International Law in the 19th Century"

00:04:17 - the French, the British, the Americans across the Pacific in the 19th century came along. They spoke a completely different language. They understood international relations in an entirely different way. And by, yeah, by the 1850s, sixties, Japan could no longer ignore this. They were forced to sign a treaty in a language they didn't understand. They had to get their heads around it. It was a, a, a fairly standing start because there was no really real cultural tradition of codifying law or, using well, professional law lawyers as,
00:04:57 - so justice previously, yeah, not being a defined profession as such, it, it fell to the bureaucrats. if you are in control of a particular area, then dealing with criminals in that area also came under your jurisdiction. So you had to read up a bit on the, the neo-Confucian philosophy, which framed that, the justice. But, there wasn't a, a, a coded coded law as such, or, a, a list of rules that any, professional lawyer as such would, would follow.
00:05:41 - what they found, in the West. And, it was only when Japanese people started traveling abroad in the 1860s. Until then, because of their national seclusion policy, they had very little Firsthand experience of the outside world for the last few hundred years. And, in order to find out what was going on, they, they did actually start, sending, exploratory missions in the 1860s and found out very quickly, a whole range of things. But, but among these was, well, the existence of,
00:06:21 - And, and the, the penny dropped that this whole business of writing treaties have had this, this sort of, architecture of, well, heritage legacy and precedents beside it, and a whole bank of volumes of works and various international lawyers. It was a profession in itself, and it was only from that moment that, well, translation was the only way that that, that, that, general readers in Japan, found a, a way into that this new world. And, once these translations were rapidly put together from the 1860s onwards, then there was yeah,
00:07:03 - law across a whole range, criminal, civil, but also including international law as well. It was highly controversial. and it was politically charged. I mean, it was a very politically fragmented system. the treaty with the Americans and then following the Americans, the, the British, the French, the Dutch, and the Russians, they all followed up with their own treaties using the same language of international law. but it was signed off by the AWA regime, which was not in a, a good way by the time. And the fact that it was agreeing to these,
00:07:48 - political tension in Japan within 10 years of signing the 1858 unsaid treaties, that the regime was overthrown with a brief civil war. so on the whole, the incumbent regime that they kept the small print under wraps, they, it wasn't something that, that was broadly advertised to Japanese society at large, knowledge being power. They had their own little think tank of people who were trying frantically to work out what this was all about. And, when the new regime comes in, again, they inherit this, loaded legacy. What have we signed up to? What does it mean?

"Japan's Legal Evolution: Navigating Treaty Revision and the Birth of a Multipolar Global Order"

00:08:29 - to work out what it was, based on really, and find ways that they could, if they weren't going to, militarily contest these, these treaties, and they weren't in a position to do that. They had to be in a position to use the letter of the law literally to, to argue, for their own position, which leads into the campaign, to, to revise these treaties, which they managed to do within The space of 40 years. And the first non-Western state that actually manages to do that and, read itself of what was essentially a, an ex territorial regime on the lines of China
00:09:10 - and other places at the time, was certainly viewed by, the legist, the, the, the specialists, in Europe and America at the time when they, they were dismissive at the start of, Japan's Japanese lawyers pretensions to actually, join their profession. How, how could they do this from a standing start? It seemed impossible. But by, by the 1890s, they were, it was incontestable. They, they were taking part in conferences, in correspondence on sort of minutiae in the field. And, yeah, the, they were the new kids on the block,
00:09:51 - to the field was increasingly hard to deny. which given that this was the international order that, they themselves had created, put them in a bit of a fix reluctantly, they, they had to accept that. Yeah. that Japanese lawyers and, and the Japanese state more broadly was joining the fault. These days, we often talk about a multipolar global order, and, quite glibly, various states throw this, this notion around, but it's not really new. It goes back to the start of the 20th century,
00:10:33 - And if you look back within that context, you see, well, Japan, first of all, in addition to the European and American states taking part in, in this broader approach, to ordering international relations, and it probably speaks to that in the end, where we sit now in the 21st century and, and how we, how states, understand, their, their role within the, the international system, which is always contested, of course, it, it, it does, evolve over time and that, that's very much, the situation these days.
00:11:32 - but, yeah, this idea of a multipolar global order is something that I think 19th century Japan's contribution towards allows us to see this within a broader picture. It's not something which has happened overnight, since the end of the Cold War.

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