Wellbeing in the legal profession

Key Question Being Explored in This Insight:

How does the issue of wellbeing intersect with workplace culture, gender equality, and professionalism in the legal profession?

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Institution: Newcastle University

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How does the issue of wellbeing intersect with workplace culture, gender equality, and professionalism in the legal profession?

Image courtesy of interviewee. December 13, 2024

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This video discusses the growing concern over the wellbeing and mental health of lawyers and law students, highlighting a trend observed globally across legal professions. This video interest has intensified particularly in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic and the recognized wellbeing challenges faced by law students and legal professionals.

Key points include:

1. **Rising Awareness**: There is an explosion of research on lawyer wellbeing, emphasizing the need to understand the issues lawyers face and initiatives aimed at addressing these concerns. For example, the International Bar Association has issued guidelines on wellbeing in legal education.

2. **Prevalence of Problems**: Many lawyers and law students reportedly struggle with mental health and wellbeing, often described as "surviving but not thriving." Symptoms include stress, anxiety, and depression, exacerbated by the high-pressure environment of legal work.

3. **Cultural and Organizational Factors**: The discussion highlights the need for a culture change within the legal profession. Structural issues such as long working hours, high competition, and the commercial nature of legal services contribute to mental health challenges. The current environment may prioritize economic efficiency and competitiveness over mental wellbeing.

4. **Focus on Specific Groups**: Research indicates that early-career lawyers, as well as those from marginalized backgrounds, face particular challenges and may experience higher levels of burnout and discrimination.

5. **Countering Stigma**: Historically, the legal profession has stigmatized mental health issues, which can deter individuals from seeking help. Recent initiatives seek to create a more supportive environment for open discussions about mental health.

6. **Systemic Issues in Legal Education**: This video ties the wellbeing crisis to broader issues in higher education, including the pressures faced by law students regarding the cost of education, competitive environments, and the rising visibility of mental health struggles among young adults.

7. **Long-Term Solutions**: The need for comprehensive strategies that involve not just individual coping mechanisms but also organizational support and systemic changes is emphasized to create healthier legal workplaces.

Overall, the text conveys that while there is an acknowledgment of the mental health crisis within the legal field, solutions require a multifaceted approach that includes cultural shifts, awareness, support systems, and addressing structural issues.

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Here are five key points derived from the video on the wellbeing and mental health challenges facing lawyers and law students:

1. **Increased Focus on Wellbeing**: There is a growing global interest in the mental health and wellbeing of lawyers and law students, triggered by various studies and reports that highlight significant challenges faced by these groups. This interest has intensified post-COVID-19 and aligns with broader concerns regarding mental health in academic institutions.

2. **Cultural and Systemic Issues**: The wellbeing crisis in the legal profession is rooted in cultural and systemic factors rather than being solely an individual problem. Several studies emphasize the need for a cultural change within the legal profession to address the disconnect between the rhetoric of needing improvement and the actual working conditions experienced by lawyers.

3. **Impact of Work Environment**: The legal profession is characterized by high stress, long hours, and competitive cultures, which can lead to anxiety, depression, and loneliness among lawyers. This environment is exacerbated by expectations surrounding billing practices and client demands, which contribute to mental health challenges.

4. **Intersectionality in Wellbeing Challenges**: There are specific wellbeing issues that disproportionately affect marginalized groups within the legal profession, such as women, ethnic minorities, and those with disabilities. These groups often experience lower job autonomy and higher rates of burnout, indicating a need for tailored support and interventions.

5. **Need for Organizational Change**: Employers and regulatory bodies are recognizing the importance of fostering mentally healthy workplaces. Initiatives are emerging to embed wellbeing into the organizational culture, shifting from mere provision of advice to proactive policies and collaborative efforts to create supportive environments for legal professionals. This includes acknowledging the broader social convideo in which these issues exist, rather than focusing solely on individual resilience.

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Here are some key quotes from the video related to the wellbeing and mental health of lawyers and law students:

1. **Growing Interest**: "There's been this growing interest in the wellbeing and mental health of lawyers...it's become an increasingly prominent part of the legal landscape."

2. **Understanding the Issues**: "What you're seeing is an attempt to better understand the problems that lawyers face, but also to do something about it."

3. **Concerns in Legal Education**: "There's been growing concern about the wellbeing and mental health of law students and in the field of legal education."

4. **Explosion of Research**: "There's been an explosion of research and literature on wellbeing...multitude of empirical research studies of lawyer wellbeing."

5. **Surviving vs. Thriving**: "Many in the law are surviving but not thriving."

6. **Crisis of Wellbeing**: "We've increasingly got this phrase, the profession is in a crisis. It's at the tipping point."

7. **Need for Culture Change**: "All these studies are now saying that we need a culture change in the law."

8. **Risk Factors**: "Lawyers have a greater propensity to be at risk of depression, anxiety, and stress."

9. **Stigma Around Mental Illness**: "The legal profession has had stigmatizing views to mental illness in the past."

10. **Bullying and Intersectionality**: "Many lawyers may experience bullying...how factors like gender, race, ethnicity, socioeconomic background, disability are part of these experiences."

11. **Long Hours Culture**: "Pressures for many lawyers associated with time billing...the long hours culture."

12. **Emotional Assumptions**: "There's an assumption about being the unemotional professional...you can't strip it out."

13. **Economic Factors**: "It's about economic efficiency, recruitment, the very future of some areas of legal services."

14. **Wellbeing Measures**: "There's been a shift from providing advice...to trying to create mentally healthy workplaces."

15. **Broader Convideo**: "We gotta locate it in a broader social, political economic convideo."

16. **Crisis in Higher Education**: "This crisis of wellbeing and mental health in higher education...predates the COVID-19 pandemic."

17. **Fear of Failure**: "This is about the costs of financing and entering into the law...the idea that legal education has become a kind of private good rather than a public good."

18. **Generational Shift**: "We are seeing a generational shift now that people are more prepared to be open and to speak about issues around wellbeing and mental health."

19. **Complex Problem**: "It's a wicked problem for the profession...we haven't got a clear consensus about the definition even is of wellbeing."

20. **Unintended Consequences**: "Many of these proposed solutions to the problems of lawyer wellbeing will have unintended consequences."

These quotes effectively capture the essence of the discussion surrounding the wellbeing and mental health challenges in the legal profession and education.

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There's been this growing interest in the wellbeing

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and mental health of lawyers,

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and it's happened across legal professions globally.

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Uh, and it's become an increasingly prominent part

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of the legal landscape, I think,

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and across legal communities,

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what you're seeing is an attempt

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to better understand the problems that lawyers face,

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but also to do something about it.

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And at the same time as

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that has been going on in the legal profession,

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against the backdrop

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of what's been this heightened concern about wellbeing

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and mental health in universities,

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and this is across UK universities,

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and this predates the COVID-19 pandemic,

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there's been growing concern about the wellbeing

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and mental health of law students

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and in the field of legal education.

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So just this year, this year,

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the International Bar Association have produced guidelines

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on wellbeing in legal education and law schools.

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So to put all of that together, there's been an explosion

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of research and literature on wellbeing

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in the legal profession.

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We have got a multitude of empirical research studies

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of lawyer wellbeing that're both in general terms.

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So example 2021,

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the International Bar Association does a global survey

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of lawyer wellbeing.

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The same year the legal charity law care produces

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life in the law.

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And that is the first cross profession study of wellbeing

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of lawyers in the uk.

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And I was one of the members

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of the research team on that project.

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At the same time, we get studies of

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specific groups of lawyers.

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So for example, solicitors in large corporate law firms,

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family lawyers, legal aid lawyers, barristers and so on.

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Many lawyers and law students, the research suggests, appear

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to face problems around wellbeing

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and mental health in the course of their legal careers.

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And for some students in studying law itself,

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and you get this repeated praise

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that many in the law are surviving but not thriving.

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Um, this has become the focus

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of an extensive discussion in the legal professional press,

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but also in the national and international media.

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So before this interview, just two weekends ago,

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the Times is running a,

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a piece here about the issues facing, it says confessions

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of millennial lawyers.

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You know, these lawyers are earning all this money

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but have all these problems.

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Uh, what's been happening, we've had thematic reviews

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of legal workplace cultures

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by the regulators like the Solicitor's Regulation Authority.

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We've had a succession of wellness networks, task forces,

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wellbeing guidelines.

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And increasingly you get this phrase,

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the profession is in a crisis.

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It's at the tipping point.

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So for solicitors, barristers, legal executives, judges,

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paralegals, law students, people like myself

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who are involved in law teaching for everybody

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in the administration of justice, wellbeing, I would argue,

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has become an increasingly kind of hot topic.

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It's part of the cultural fabric

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of laws institutions I've been teaching many years,

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and we are in a different world now from

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where we were just 10 years ago on this.

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So to sort of wrap up, when you say the background, I'm,

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I'm writing a book that will be out next year

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with Cambridge University Press.

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And what I'm trying to do is develop a more,

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a more nuanced understanding

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and ask, I'm asking two questions.

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Why now? Why have we had this

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interest in wellbeing over recently?

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Is I, I think in particular since around 2010,

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what's happened where wellbeing is now

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part of business strategy.

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It's about economic efficiency, it's about recruitment,

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it's about retention, business reputation.

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It's even about the very future

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of some areas of legal services.

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But secondly, and I think this is the important thing in a

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way, all these studies are now saying

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that we need a culture change in the law.

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And that's been called for in the life in the law study I

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mentioned, it's in the International Borough

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Association's Global Survey.

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What you get is this repeated disconnect

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between the rhetoric of a kind of need for change.

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There's this consensus, the law's got problems, we need

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to do something, but what the literature says is the reality

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of many lawyers' actual lives.

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So what I'm trying to do

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is explore the organizational culture, if I can put it

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that way, in which law is practiced and taught.

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And I think we need to see this.

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It's not just a profession problem.

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We've gotta locate it in a broader social,

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political economic context.

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I'll speak a little bit then to what's happened in the UK

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because, what's happened in the uk I think you can trace

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it back to research

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and a literature initially from the United States

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and then develop particularly in Australia.

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So a repeated phrase is used is that the UK sort of lagged

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behind what's happened elsewhere.

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So the U United States, Australia,

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this debate I think is much more developed than it is here.

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Where are we now? Then a key theme I think we cannot

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extrapolate from one area of law to another.

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For example, wellbeing in a large

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corporate commercial law firm.

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It's not necessarily the same as

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what is going on in a high street firm

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or in a legal aid firm and so on.

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However, where are we now, there are some key themes

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or concerns that kind of link up

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and they resonate across the debate.

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Uh, so what do we see? What are the issues?

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Example, the argument

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that lawyers have a greater propensity to be at risk

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of depression, anxiety, and stress.

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And you get this repeated argument

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that there is significant levels of negative stress,

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anxiety indeed loneliness in the legal profession.

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An example, the legal profession has had stigmatizing views

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to mental illness in the past.

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So this idea

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that people may be discriminated against if they speak out,

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there's that stigma.

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So that's a theme in the literature.

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Um, example, I think this is an important one.

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There's been a particular focus on the experiences

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of early career lawyers.

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So let's say junior lawyers

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and a group called the Junior Lawyers Division

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of the Law Society.

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They did some wonderful surveys

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before the pandemic

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that looked at the specific problems facing those

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coming into the law.

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And the argument is that they may have local

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self-determination, low autonomy,

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so distinctive issues facing them, example.

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And I think we're seeing a growing focus on this

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that many lawyers may experience bullying,

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discrimination, or harassment.

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So some of these studies are talking about

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what we call the intersectional dimensions of wellbeing.

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So how factors like gender, race, ethnicity, socioeconomic,

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background, disability, are all part

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of these experiences of wellbeing.

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So what I've just tried to summarize are some of the

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themes in the literature,

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but I think, you know, to make it more real in a way,

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the question is what are the cause?

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There is no, there's no one.

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Cause I kind of think of it more as a sort of nexus

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of issues that come together.

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But for people watching this, if this is of interest,

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these are the sorts of issues talked about, example,

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pressures for many lawyers associated with time billing.

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So they bill their time and having to work long hours.

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So this long hours culture.

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Now I know law's not alone in that,

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but it's a particular theme.

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The idea that law can often be a competitive high

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achievement, hierarchical kind of workplace,

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not just in the large corporate law firms example,

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the pressures of client demands of being available

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for clients, example.

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And I find this, I find this really interesting,

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the arguments that there are certain assumptions about

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what it means to think like a lawyer and to be professional.

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So assumptions about emotional being the unemotional

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professional, being kind of invulnerable if you like.

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And there's a rich literature on the idea

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that says actually you can't

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Get rid of emotion.

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Emotion is part of what we do and you can't strip it out.

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And lawyers will carry this emotion in what they do.

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Uh, linked to that, there's a theme about lawyers

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and law students that the law it's said,

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can attract certain types of personalities.

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So people, it's been said, who are competitive,

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highly driven perfectionist who are given to rumination,

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who may feel that there's no room for error,

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who may see themselves as imposters.

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If you put all those personality attributes

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and you link it to what's been called the pessimistic

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orientation of law, especially in adversarial legal systems.

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So you get a kind of catastrophizing mentality

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or is on the lookout for what may go wrong

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and that the argument goes, it's not good

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for wellbeing or mental health.

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Uh, the other things I would add,

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I hope this gives some picture of the sorts

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of drivers coming here.

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Thanks. Uh, for some lawyers, there may be issues

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around dealing with traumatic material

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with highly vulnerable clients, the effects of trauma

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that may come from those client relationships.

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So you may get that in a family law, asylum law,

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immigration law for example.

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Uh, so vulnerable clients.

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Something that interests me, one

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of the themes in this research is

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that there's been a change in the profession itself

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and we've moved away from a more traditional idea

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of the legal profession to as a kind of public service.

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You know, that's what being a profession is.

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We're here to help people.

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And we've gone towards what's been called a financialized

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legal services sector sector,

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increasingly focused on commercial growth and profit making.

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Where what is valued, it's argued, is this ability

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to generate revenue.

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And that's downplaying other ideas about professionalism,

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competence, and skill and about the value of social work.

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So to put all of that together and try

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and summarize it here, the argument is not

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that those who enter the law are kind of genetically pre

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predisposed to poor wellbeing or mental health problems.

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It's not that. It's that you've got a coming together

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of these particular personal characteristics

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and issues around the environmental context

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and the cultures of practices of law.

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And that's why all these reports

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and organizations say we need to rethink the culture

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and practices of law if we're gonna do

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something about lawyer wellbeing.

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For many lawyers, as we said, the issue isn't financial.

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There are some lawyers,

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especially perhaps in corporate commercial law firms

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who can earn significant amounts even

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early on in their career.

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So we know these lawyers newly qualified are

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150,000 for example.

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We know that law continues to be seen as an area

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with high social status

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and the average salaries set along much

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of the UK population are arguably high.

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So maybe it's not financial example.

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Well, the supply side, if these are the problems faced

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by lawyers, people still want to study law at university

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and there's great competition to get into training contracts

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or for, into chambers

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and pupilage, you know, the supply side there.

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So people aren't being put off. Example.

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And I think this is important, if you put this discussion

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in the context of the problems faced by many in the UK

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before, during, and

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after the pandemic, then how do the problems

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of lawyers compare to say, key workers in social care,

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the NHS teaching childcare essential services.

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Lawyers are not alone in experiencing

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these kinds of problems.

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It sounds like here I'm making an argument against my

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own argument that it matters.

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Um, but we need to get that bigger picture.

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And I think an important thing, there has been a tendency

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in the literature to focus on lawyer ill being,

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but let's not forget the positive

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attitudinal features of wellbeing.

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You know, the positive things.

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'cause what we also know is that many lawyers do enjoy

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and find deeply rewarding many aspects of their work.

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They may find it financially rewarding,

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but they'll find it rewarding in other ways as well.

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So what I've just said are some reasons why

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maybe we should be cautious.

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Uh, but there are three reasons why I would answer you

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and say it does matter.

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Firstly, it matters to individual lawyers.

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We're talking here about avoidable problems,

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many avoidable problems with social consequences

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for individuals, for families, for colleagues,

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for friendship networks, for wider communities

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and in the workplace.

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Poor wellbeing can impact on how lawyers can do their work

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to the best of their ability.

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How they can think critically deal with setbacks,

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how they engage with others.

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And that's important

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because if you're in a highly regulated profession

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where lawyers are making these decisions,

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this will have implications.

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If, let's say, for example, poor ethical decisions are made

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that will have implications for individuals

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and it'll have implications for employers.

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So the first argument is this,

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and I think this is the important one.

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It's about individuals and we're talking about pain

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and suffering and that's what comes through.

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The second one argument is what's been called the business

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case, which we're familiar in different areas.

303
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Uh, this is a matter that's important

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for employers and regulators.

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00:15:01.145 --> 00:15:05.605
For example, we know it's in the economic, social

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and interests of employers to have a healthy,

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productive workforce.

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Uh, core wellbeing has financial consequences

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and there are economic reasons why law firms

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should take this seriously.

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So it's about productivity, quality of work,

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it's about commitment to the organizations we work in.

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It's about recruitment, it's about retention

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and the reputation of laws institutions.

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And increasingly for the employers,

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it's about showing leadership, showing

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that you care about your staff

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and that you want to be a progressive employer.

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So firstly, individuals.

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Secondly, employers, regulators, the profession itself.

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But thirdly, and I think this often gets lost,

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it's important for society to have a healthy,

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well-functioning legal profession.

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'cause we need to remember lawyers play key roles in the

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administration of justice, that kind

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of gatekeepers to the rule of law.

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Now, if lawyers are engaging in ethically questionable

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conduct 'cause of poor wellbeing,

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that can have a potential impact on public

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perceptions of the profession.

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And that can affect the social legitimacy of the law.

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And I do wonder sometimes if the danger is we're having all

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this conversation and the media reporting all these stories

334
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of crisis, of lawyers wellbeing, what's the impact of that?

335
00:16:34.725 --> 00:16:37.525
I mentioned all these reports, task force studies,

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unsurprisingly, a lot's happened, a lot's been done.

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I mean, what I would try

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and do, we have seen a shift

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over the past decade more,

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but particularly the past decade from what used

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to be a focus on providing advice

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and support to individual lawyers.

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You know, if you're in difficulty, we'll sign post advice.

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Here's where you can get support.

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The direction of travel has been towards embedding

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wellbeing and to trying to create

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mentally healthy workplaces.

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And you see this in bodies like the Solicits Regulation

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authority or the fantastic work

350
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by a legal charity called Law care,

351
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who I think have actually driven much of this agenda.

352
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So we've gone from the individual to try

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and change the culture of law,

354
00:17:26.285 --> 00:17:27.705
and I would divide that into two.

355
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Some of this is focused on the individual themselves.

356
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So you get attempts to, what's it phrase,

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promote healthy cognitive styles of working,

358
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about personal growth, self-awareness, becoming resilient,

359
00:17:43.065 --> 00:17:45.585
managing stress and anxiety, becoming more aware

360
00:17:45.585 --> 00:17:48.305
of your own emotions, making sure you are in one program,

361
00:17:48.685 --> 00:17:49.965
you are fit for the law.

362
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Now that's all really desirable.

363
00:17:52.935 --> 00:17:54.665
They seem self-evidently good things,

364
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but they're all things focused on the individual

365
00:17:59.215 --> 00:18:00.235
and they tend not

366
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to look at the broad social context

367
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in which all of this is happening.

368
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And the second strand,

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and I think this is where we are now, is increasing,

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there's attempt to bring together

371
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stakeholders across the law.

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So for example, the profession and the legal educators

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and to try and work together to try

374
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and address these concerns

375
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that have crossed professional level.

376
00:18:22.705 --> 00:18:26.705
And if you want an example of that, in 2021,

377
00:18:26.705 --> 00:18:29.905
the International Bar Association did a global survey.

378
00:18:30.525 --> 00:18:31.825
It was the first time to try

379
00:18:31.825 --> 00:18:33.105
and look at this internationally,

380
00:18:33.685 --> 00:18:36.585
and it concludes with 10 wellbeing principles.

381
00:18:37.045 --> 00:18:39.265
And it summarizes what we've been talking about.

382
00:18:39.375 --> 00:18:42.425
Wait, very briefly, these are what they're saying,

383
00:18:42.815 --> 00:18:44.865
wellbeing, mental wellbeing matters.

384
00:18:46.625 --> 00:18:50.745
It is not a weakness. Raising awareness is fundamental.

385
00:18:51.995 --> 00:18:56.365
We need a commitment to change. Policies matter.

386
00:18:56.465 --> 00:18:57.765
So we need policies here.

387
00:18:58.235 --> 00:19:00.685
It's essential to maintain an open dialogue

388
00:19:00.985 --> 00:19:04.805
and reading out these 10 points we have to address

389
00:19:05.405 --> 00:19:06.445
systemic problems.

390
00:19:06.465 --> 00:19:07.805
In other words, these aren't surface,

391
00:19:07.935 --> 00:19:09.965
these are kinda systemic in the profession.

392
00:19:11.645 --> 00:19:14.365
Recognize intersectionalities, I'll come back to that.

393
00:19:14.365 --> 00:19:17.045
When you asked me about DEI share good practice

394
00:19:17.065 --> 00:19:19.565
and learn from others, and there are other recommendations,

395
00:19:19.825 --> 00:19:21.845
that do similar things.

396
00:19:22.465 --> 00:19:26.045
So across the profession, you have bodies like law care,

397
00:19:26.065 --> 00:19:29.605
who I mentioned, who provide advice and support

398
00:19:29.745 --> 00:19:31.365
and who have driven some of the research.

399
00:19:32.265 --> 00:19:35.125
The law societies have all ratcheted up their engagement

400
00:19:35.125 --> 00:19:37.525
with wellbeing, trying to upskill their membership.

401
00:19:38.105 --> 00:19:41.445
Um, we have bodies like the Junior Lawyers Division looking

402
00:19:41.445 --> 00:19:43.685
at the wellbeing of specific groups.

403
00:19:44.625 --> 00:19:47.165
The regulators have changed their engagement.

404
00:19:47.185 --> 00:19:50.045
And the solicitor's regulation is a good example there.

405
00:19:50.475 --> 00:19:52.245
They conducted a thematic review

406
00:19:52.245 --> 00:19:53.685
of legal workplace cultures.

407
00:19:53.705 --> 00:19:57.755
And we're now in an area where for the regulators,

408
00:19:58.225 --> 00:20:01.995
this is about the risks of failing to support colleagues.

409
00:20:02.105 --> 00:20:03.835
It's becoming a regulation issue.

410
00:20:04.735 --> 00:20:06.115
We know much about the wellbeing

411
00:20:06.115 --> 00:20:09.115
of barristers following a report in 2015.

412
00:20:10.605 --> 00:20:15.305
I do think much of the discussion in the press in the media

413
00:20:16.165 --> 00:20:18.815
has tended to focus on the large corporate

414
00:20:18.815 --> 00:20:19.975
commercial law firms.

415
00:20:20.075 --> 00:20:21.655
So let's remember, they may have problems,

416
00:20:21.655 --> 00:20:22.975
but they have the resources

417
00:20:23.775 --> 00:20:24.935
relative to others to address this.

418
00:20:25.515 --> 00:20:29.855
So it's here you get healthy body at work programs,

419
00:20:30.515 --> 00:20:33.655
you know, various know, know your triggers,

420
00:20:33.655 --> 00:20:37.575
organizational resilience, introducing yoga, Tai Chi,

421
00:20:37.935 --> 00:20:39.575
Pilates, you know, bringing it

422
00:20:39.575 --> 00:20:40.855
into the structure of the firm.

423
00:20:41.795 --> 00:20:44.995
But I've got to say, what about elsewhere?

424
00:20:46.165 --> 00:20:47.835
What about in other areas of law?

425
00:20:48.425 --> 00:20:51.555
Because in these areas, let's say legal aid for example,

426
00:20:52.745 --> 00:20:54.275
it's not about bringing in kind

427
00:20:54.275 --> 00:20:57.835
of lifestyle adaptations into a lawyer's life.

428
00:20:57.855 --> 00:21:00.715
You know, it's not about introducing neck massage at

429
00:21:00.715 --> 00:21:02.795
lunchtimes or yoga and massage.

430
00:21:03.215 --> 00:21:07.835
You're talking about the structure, the impact of cuts

431
00:21:07.855 --> 00:21:09.595
to the, to the funding of legal aid.

432
00:21:09.615 --> 00:21:13.235
For example. You're talking about the material conditions in

433
00:21:13.235 --> 00:21:15.635
which many lawyers are actually working,

434
00:21:15.815 --> 00:21:17.955
and you're talking about the very sustainability

435
00:21:18.795 --> 00:21:20.295
of some areas of legal services.

436
00:21:21.195 --> 00:21:22.455
So to go back to the very beginning,

437
00:21:23.515 --> 00:21:26.175
that's my point about not generalizing.

438
00:21:26.405 --> 00:21:28.015
I'll just say one thing on answer

439
00:21:28.015 --> 00:21:29.415
to your question about DEI.

440
00:21:30.035 --> 00:21:33.095
Um, what we get from the studies

441
00:21:33.355 --> 00:21:35.175
and life in the law highlights this

442
00:21:35.515 --> 00:21:37.895
and the International Borough Association highlight this.

443
00:21:38.835 --> 00:21:43.335
It suggests particular difficulties can be experienced

444
00:21:43.475 --> 00:21:45.255
by members of the legal community

445
00:21:45.395 --> 00:21:48.575
who are female from minoritized ethnic grouping or identity,

446
00:21:49.315 --> 00:21:51.135
or who have a disability.

447
00:21:51.355 --> 00:21:55.735
And the problems addressed seem to affect already vulnerable

448
00:21:55.795 --> 00:21:57.615
and historically marginalized groups.

449
00:21:57.675 --> 00:21:59.255
So this is one of the themes coming through

450
00:21:59.485 --> 00:22:02.135
that women ethnic minority groups, lawyers

451
00:22:02.135 --> 00:22:04.415
with disabilities may experience, for example,

452
00:22:04.505 --> 00:22:07.375
lower job autonomy or higher levels of burnout.

453
00:22:08.515 --> 00:22:13.015
One of the things I'm trying to argue in this book is that

454
00:22:13.575 --> 00:22:15.895
actually, and I come from a background here around gender,

455
00:22:16.085 --> 00:22:19.135
much of my work in the past was around masculinities,

456
00:22:19.195 --> 00:22:20.815
and fatherhood in particular.

457
00:22:21.435 --> 00:22:22.895
I'm sort of coming from that perspective.

458
00:22:23.635 --> 00:22:27.075
Um, I do wonder if we need to ask

459
00:22:27.075 --> 00:22:29.035
what I might call a man question here

460
00:22:29.695 --> 00:22:31.875
and rest questions about men's engagement

461
00:22:31.875 --> 00:22:32.875
and involvement in this.

462
00:22:33.535 --> 00:22:37.935
Uh, what I mean is across organizations including the legal

463
00:22:38.095 --> 00:22:41.855
profession, there is a growing focus on getting men involved

464
00:22:42.035 --> 00:22:44.735
in diversity, equality, and inclusion agendas.

465
00:22:45.395 --> 00:22:48.535
And the law society in England, Wales have been doing

466
00:22:48.535 --> 00:22:49.655
that with some of their work.

467
00:22:51.555 --> 00:22:54.495
We know that if you want to advance wellbeing

468
00:22:55.235 --> 00:22:59.815
or DEI, you need to get senior figures in the law involved.

469
00:23:00.825 --> 00:23:03.125
But what we also know is

470
00:23:03.125 --> 00:23:06.845
that those senior figures are not withstanding agenda

471
00:23:06.845 --> 00:23:09.045
transformation at the entry to the profession.

472
00:23:09.195 --> 00:23:11.525
They still continue to be disproportionately men.

473
00:23:11.525 --> 00:23:13.125
You're talking about engaging men.

474
00:23:13.385 --> 00:23:16.005
So I just say two things in answering you.

475
00:23:16.715 --> 00:23:20.365
Firstly, what is striking is that many

476
00:23:20.385 --> 00:23:25.165
of these empirical studies of lawyer wellbeing, the majority

477
00:23:25.225 --> 00:23:28.405
of the respondents to the studies tend to be women lawyers.

478
00:23:29.285 --> 00:23:31.305
And in life in the law, I think this figures right, it was

479
00:23:31.305 --> 00:23:32.385
around 75%.

480
00:23:33.675 --> 00:23:36.695
Now that you have a study conducted during the pandemic

481
00:23:36.995 --> 00:23:41.535
and you're asking about lawyers' lives where in the context

482
00:23:41.635 --> 00:23:45.015
of working remote working, they may be juggling work

483
00:23:45.385 --> 00:23:46.565
and care responsibilities.

484
00:23:47.145 --> 00:23:49.725
You can't take away an issue like gender from

485
00:23:49.725 --> 00:23:50.805
understanding what's happening there.

486
00:23:50.825 --> 00:23:53.325
So whose, whose voices are we listening to there?

487
00:23:53.785 --> 00:23:56.725
But I also think coming from the masculinity side,

488
00:23:57.825 --> 00:24:01.045
we know a lot about men, gender and health

489
00:24:01.385 --> 00:24:05.485
and mental health, or we know how men's reluctance to

490
00:24:06.355 --> 00:24:09.325
seek help at times, a difficulty can be informed

491
00:24:09.465 --> 00:24:11.725
by assumptions about masculinity around

492
00:24:11.725 --> 00:24:12.885
what it means to be a man.

493
00:24:13.065 --> 00:24:16.085
If we are gonna talk about wellbeing in this kind of way,

494
00:24:16.785 --> 00:24:19.885
we need to bring in that sort of gendered lens,

495
00:24:19.885 --> 00:24:23.085
that gendered reading to make sense of what's going on.

496
00:24:23.325 --> 00:24:25.605
I think the primary focus of much of this has been

497
00:24:26.145 --> 00:24:28.045
the legal profession and lawyer wellbeing,

498
00:24:28.945 --> 00:24:33.205
but there is now a rich literature on wellbeing

499
00:24:33.465 --> 00:24:34.605
in legal education.

500
00:24:34.865 --> 00:24:37.725
And increasingly in law schools, the bulk of it

501
00:24:38.585 --> 00:24:39.965
is focused on law students.

502
00:24:41.125 --> 00:24:43.805
Although more recently we are seeing

503
00:24:44.325 --> 00:24:47.125
a focus on the wellbeing of mental health of those who teach

504
00:24:47.385 --> 00:24:48.485
and research law.

505
00:24:48.505 --> 00:24:50.045
So people who do jobs like myself,

506
00:24:50.185 --> 00:24:51.765
and now there's quite a bit of work on that.

507
00:24:52.625 --> 00:24:56.525
Um, the background to all of this, when if you say

508
00:24:56.525 --> 00:24:57.965
to me what's happening in the law schools,

509
00:24:58.785 --> 00:25:01.845
the wider background is, you may have heard this phrase,

510
00:25:01.955 --> 00:25:04.725
it's been in so much of the media the past decade

511
00:25:05.185 --> 00:25:08.565
or is this crisis of wellbeing

512
00:25:08.565 --> 00:25:11.965
and mental health in higher education across the sector.

513
00:25:13.065 --> 00:25:15.645
Now this predates the COVID-19 pandemic,

514
00:25:16.665 --> 00:25:21.045
but we have a succession of studies that suggest that

515
00:25:21.925 --> 00:25:23.285
elevated levels of distress

516
00:25:23.385 --> 00:25:27.045
and poor psychological health has become endemic across the

517
00:25:27.045 --> 00:25:28.165
higher education sector.

518
00:25:28.905 --> 00:25:30.525
And in responding to this,

519
00:25:30.625 --> 00:25:33.285
we have a university mental health charter wellbeing is in

520
00:25:33.285 --> 00:25:35.045
the mission statements of universities.

521
00:25:35.785 --> 00:25:40.325
Uh, it's all around, you know, it's been a core commitment.

522
00:25:40.675 --> 00:25:43.085
I'll leave aside what's happening at the universities at the

523
00:25:43.085 --> 00:25:44.125
moment, that's another issue.

524
00:25:44.625 --> 00:25:47.765
But here we have this commitment to students generally

525
00:25:47.945 --> 00:25:50.125
and a ratcheting up of wellbeing support services.

526
00:25:50.345 --> 00:25:51.965
The same time that is going on.

527
00:25:53.235 --> 00:25:56.705
There is specific literature on law students

528
00:25:57.445 --> 00:26:00.225
and that suggests law students may face particular

529
00:26:00.715 --> 00:26:01.785
kinds of problems.

530
00:26:02.965 --> 00:26:05.305
Uh, and there is a rich scholarship on that,

531
00:26:05.305 --> 00:26:07.785
especially from Australia, the United States.

532
00:26:08.325 --> 00:26:13.305
But no increasingly the uk there's no one factor.

533
00:26:13.455 --> 00:26:15.385
Some of the factors I think are generic

534
00:26:16.345 --> 00:26:17.845
across the student population,

535
00:26:18.385 --> 00:26:20.525
but some of them, interestingly are said

536
00:26:20.525 --> 00:26:21.685
to be specific to law.

537
00:26:22.465 --> 00:26:25.845
Uh, so what are we talking about? An obvious one.

538
00:26:26.375 --> 00:26:29.085
We're in a marketized system of higher education now

539
00:26:29.315 --> 00:26:30.725
with the reforms that have happened.

540
00:26:31.395 --> 00:26:35.005
This is about the costs of financing

541
00:26:35.225 --> 00:26:36.525
and entering into the law.

542
00:26:37.185 --> 00:26:39.805
So the idea that legal education has become a kind

543
00:26:39.805 --> 00:26:41.965
of private good rather than a public good.

544
00:26:42.345 --> 00:26:44.125
And for law it may be the costs

545
00:26:44.185 --> 00:26:47.765
of incurring further training going on to get training,

546
00:26:47.865 --> 00:26:49.445
you know, to go into the profession itself.

547
00:26:49.665 --> 00:26:51.325
One of the arguments is we're seeing

548
00:26:51.965 --> 00:26:53.645
concerns about am I getting value

549
00:26:53.705 --> 00:26:55.765
for money now in this marketplace?

550
00:26:55.945 --> 00:26:59.325
You know, comparing, is this what I wanted this to be?

551
00:26:59.625 --> 00:27:02.285
And when the pandemic came, do you remember we had all that

552
00:27:03.025 --> 00:27:06.645
the students who the experiences of so many students

553
00:27:06.645 --> 00:27:10.125
during those lockdowns there 9,000 pounds for what is this,

554
00:27:10.125 --> 00:27:11.525
what my university experiences?

555
00:27:12.515 --> 00:27:13.695
So there, here's a factor.

556
00:27:14.275 --> 00:27:17.375
Uh, one of the themes in the literature is a thing

557
00:27:17.375 --> 00:27:18.455
around a fear of failure.

558
00:27:19.635 --> 00:27:22.935
The idea that legal education can be very competitive like

559
00:27:23.295 --> 00:27:25.685
practice and that we don't wanna let others down.

560
00:27:26.735 --> 00:27:30.395
Uh, so that needing to succeed, remembering,

561
00:27:30.395 --> 00:27:31.595
and it can be very competitive

562
00:27:31.595 --> 00:27:32.955
to then go on into the profession.

563
00:27:32.955 --> 00:27:34.555
So you have that competition aspect.

564
00:27:35.175 --> 00:27:38.275
Uh, I think there's a bigger context

565
00:27:38.775 --> 00:27:42.635
and that is evidence of the scale of poor mental health

566
00:27:42.725 --> 00:27:45.555
among young adults and the increasing cultural

567
00:27:45.555 --> 00:27:46.835
visibility of these issues.

568
00:27:47.775 --> 00:27:49.475
One of the things I think driving this

569
00:27:49.505 --> 00:27:52.305
that is very important is the idea.

570
00:27:52.325 --> 00:27:54.305
We are seeing a generational shift now

571
00:27:54.895 --> 00:27:56.985
that people are more prepared to be open

572
00:27:57.645 --> 00:27:59.225
and to speak about issues

573
00:27:59.225 --> 00:28:00.625
around wellbeing and mental health.

574
00:28:00.725 --> 00:28:02.105
And that is shifting the culture

575
00:28:02.245 --> 00:28:03.705
and it's driving this change.

576
00:28:04.965 --> 00:28:07.385
You have issues in, the law schools

577
00:28:07.445 --> 00:28:09.345
and universities just more generally about

578
00:28:09.345 --> 00:28:10.545
life course transitions.

579
00:28:10.965 --> 00:28:13.145
You know, making that transition for the, for those

580
00:28:13.165 --> 00:28:16.705
who are traditional undergraduate students, you know,

581
00:28:16.765 --> 00:28:19.665
so friendships, peer relationships, social media use.

582
00:28:20.075 --> 00:28:23.985
Let's not forget many students are combining their studies

583
00:28:24.055 --> 00:28:25.105
with paid employment.

584
00:28:25.105 --> 00:28:26.745
They may have caring obligations,

585
00:28:26.895 --> 00:28:30.755
they will experience a range of personal health

586
00:28:30.855 --> 00:28:33.555
and had a family health issues and so on.

587
00:28:33.555 --> 00:28:36.035
You know, you can so many different factors.

588
00:28:37.095 --> 00:28:40.875
Uh, I think this is an important one in terms

589
00:28:40.895 --> 00:28:42.115
of the debate in law.

590
00:28:43.255 --> 00:28:47.365
There is a strand of work who are of a work

591
00:28:47.365 --> 00:28:49.925
that is exploring the nature of the law degree itself

592
00:28:50.545 --> 00:28:54.165
and it's trying to embed wellbeing in legal education.

593
00:28:55.185 --> 00:28:56.605
And one of the arguments there,

594
00:28:56.605 --> 00:28:59.515
and it goes back to what we said earlier, is

595
00:28:59.515 --> 00:29:02.235
that you can't strip out emotion, for example,

596
00:29:02.655 --> 00:29:03.675
in teaching the law.

597
00:29:04.495 --> 00:29:05.595
But we need to rethink

598
00:29:05.695 --> 00:29:07.915
how law is under approached as a subject.

599
00:29:08.455 --> 00:29:12.035
Uh, and a lot of work is going on to exploring the nature

600
00:29:12.095 --> 00:29:13.555
of the law curriculum itself.

601
00:29:14.335 --> 00:29:17.235
So to put all of that together, there's no one driver,

602
00:29:17.235 --> 00:29:21.195
they're just, some of them you've got in ratcheting up

603
00:29:21.195 --> 00:29:22.755
of the institutional support.

604
00:29:23.635 --> 00:29:25.085
When I start teaching law,

605
00:29:25.085 --> 00:29:27.445
you didn't have departmental wellbeing officers,

606
00:29:27.445 --> 00:29:28.805
you didn't have the word wellbeing.

607
00:29:28.865 --> 00:29:32.365
And the every email signature that we have now, you know,

608
00:29:32.395 --> 00:29:33.725
it's culturally pervasive.

609
00:29:34.145 --> 00:29:35.685
You're ratcheting up support there.

610
00:29:35.705 --> 00:29:37.565
We now have guidelines on wellbeing,

611
00:29:37.585 --> 00:29:38.965
the International Bar Association,

612
00:29:40.025 --> 00:29:41.445
and then you have this embedding

613
00:29:41.445 --> 00:29:42.725
wellbeing and need education.

614
00:29:43.345 --> 00:29:47.125
Uh, and I can't not say, not add something about this,

615
00:29:47.155 --> 00:29:51.525
that there is a lot of work now on the wellbeing of those

616
00:29:51.545 --> 00:29:52.805
who work in universities.

617
00:29:52.955 --> 00:29:54.685
It's tend to focus on academic staff,

618
00:29:54.685 --> 00:29:56.725
but I forget, professional services, staff,

619
00:29:56.725 --> 00:29:59.805
staff across the universities library, you know, this is all

620
00:29:59.805 --> 00:30:00.885
of us, we're all in this.

621
00:30:01.625 --> 00:30:03.165
So there is a bigger picture there.

622
00:30:03.265 --> 00:30:06.765
So I hope that is something on the law students,

623
00:30:07.185 --> 00:30:11.405
but I can just sum up now the final point if, yeah,

624
00:30:12.605 --> 00:30:16.265
I, I'm trying to do a number of things

625
00:30:17.165 --> 00:30:20.885
in the book, as a general theme.

626
00:30:21.195 --> 00:30:24.205
It's to shift this from being a profession specific problem,

627
00:30:25.145 --> 00:30:26.885
to put it in a broader social context

628
00:30:27.185 --> 00:30:31.205
and to ask that why now question, why have we got here

629
00:30:31.625 --> 00:30:34.125
and why has this happened over recent years?

630
00:30:34.905 --> 00:30:36.525
And I think that's the really, to me,

631
00:30:36.545 --> 00:30:38.085
that's a really interesting question.

632
00:30:38.365 --> 00:30:40.765
'cause that tells you something about why this is

633
00:30:40.765 --> 00:30:43.125
so difficult, gonna be so difficult to solve

634
00:30:43.985 --> 00:30:45.165
themes very quickly.

635
00:30:45.485 --> 00:30:48.045
I said earlier, we can't generalize.

636
00:30:48.685 --> 00:30:51.525
I think there's been a tendency in some of the literature,

637
00:30:51.525 --> 00:30:54.285
assume that these factors in a private practice law firm,

638
00:30:54.305 --> 00:30:57.045
you know, long hours competitive cultures will apply us

639
00:30:57.045 --> 00:30:58.125
where they won't.

640
00:30:58.815 --> 00:31:01.165
Let's look at the bigger picture of what's going on here.

641
00:31:02.065 --> 00:31:05.405
Uh, two, I think there is a tension

642
00:31:06.285 --> 00:31:09.775
because the legal community is radiating all these messages,

643
00:31:09.835 --> 00:31:12.895
you know, about maintain good, mental health,

644
00:31:14.255 --> 00:31:17.015
engaging self-care, take time out from work.

645
00:31:18.025 --> 00:31:20.285
We know from the studies, many lawyers do that already.

646
00:31:20.555 --> 00:31:23.245
They are engaged in a wide range of self-care practices.

647
00:31:24.145 --> 00:31:27.085
The problem is that we come against the realities

648
00:31:27.105 --> 00:31:29.645
of the demands in the context

649
00:31:29.785 --> 00:31:32.365
of an overarching organizational commitment

650
00:31:32.365 --> 00:31:35.965
to this economic bottom line in the context

651
00:31:36.105 --> 00:31:38.045
of these cultural shifts that have happened.

652
00:31:38.515 --> 00:31:40.845
This is the reality. So what's been said,

653
00:31:40.905 --> 00:31:42.485
the rhetoric is do all these things,

654
00:31:43.305 --> 00:31:44.645
but what is the actual reality

655
00:31:44.825 --> 00:31:46.245
of the demands people are facing?

656
00:31:47.165 --> 00:31:48.245
I think this is a tricky one.

657
00:31:49.955 --> 00:31:52.965
Some of the features that have been seen as kind

658
00:31:52.965 --> 00:31:56.125
of pathological in the literature, you know, so,

659
00:31:57.645 --> 00:31:58.775
high levels of anxiety

660
00:31:58.795 --> 00:32:03.195
and stress, for example, you could see them as kind

661
00:32:03.195 --> 00:32:05.155
of pathologies that somebody's deficit.

662
00:32:05.615 --> 00:32:07.195
I'm, you know, I'm, I'm too anxious,

663
00:32:07.375 --> 00:32:08.595
I'm too stressful and so on.

664
00:32:09.215 --> 00:32:12.555
But let's remember that these can have a kind

665
00:32:12.675 --> 00:32:16.995
of value in organizations if you want

666
00:32:16.995 --> 00:32:19.995
to make sure that people do remain competitive,

667
00:32:20.105 --> 00:32:21.755
that they can meet billing targets

668
00:32:22.095 --> 00:32:23.995
and the demands of performance management,

669
00:32:25.145 --> 00:32:28.515
that they can manage risk and feel psychologically safe.

670
00:32:29.765 --> 00:32:33.505
So that professional identity is more complex than simply

671
00:32:33.525 --> 00:32:34.985
saying these are pathological.

672
00:32:34.985 --> 00:32:36.465
There's a, an Australian writer,

673
00:32:36.465 --> 00:32:39.925
Janet Chan used this phrase, you've got this contradiction

674
00:32:39.925 --> 00:32:44.485
of a kind of normative legal culture that has this paradox

675
00:32:44.505 --> 00:32:46.525
of these broadly satisfied lawyers

676
00:32:47.855 --> 00:32:50.355
in working conditions conducive to stress.

677
00:32:51.455 --> 00:32:53.075
And if I follow on from that,

678
00:32:54.165 --> 00:32:56.995
we're seeing a focus on making people resilient.

679
00:32:57.495 --> 00:32:59.795
And that sounds great. Who, you know, resilience,

680
00:32:59.795 --> 00:33:01.435
clearly we need to be resilient.

681
00:33:02.455 --> 00:33:06.465
And yet are we moving to a position

682
00:33:06.675 --> 00:33:09.545
where rather than call on resilience, you know,

683
00:33:09.545 --> 00:33:12.725
at times a difficulty in life, which we all have, you know,

684
00:33:12.725 --> 00:33:13.965
where we will need to be resilient.

685
00:33:14.705 --> 00:33:17.965
The argument is that it's become a kind baseline requirement

686
00:33:18.035 --> 00:33:19.045
just to get by.

687
00:33:19.425 --> 00:33:22.245
You need to be resilient all the time in the light

688
00:33:22.245 --> 00:33:24.125
of the demands that are being put on you.

689
00:33:24.745 --> 00:33:27.405
So what you do is you are making it about personal

690
00:33:27.405 --> 00:33:28.885
individual adaptations.

691
00:33:29.805 --> 00:33:31.505
You adapt to the pressures you face.

692
00:33:32.375 --> 00:33:35.785
What you don't do is then look at the social, cultural,

693
00:33:35.905 --> 00:33:38.145
political context in which we are being asked

694
00:33:38.145 --> 00:33:39.745
to bear these burdens, as it were.

695
00:33:40.165 --> 00:33:41.825
That's where it becomes political.

696
00:33:42.675 --> 00:33:44.475
I said something about whose wellbeing,

697
00:33:44.495 --> 00:33:48.915
the talking about the final point I would say to end,

698
00:33:49.695 --> 00:33:52.075
I'm using this, this phrase has been used in other areas

699
00:33:52.455 --> 00:33:55.555
of area, other areas of employment as well.

700
00:33:56.135 --> 00:33:58.315
But I do wonder if this is a wicked problem

701
00:33:59.465 --> 00:34:01.885
for the profession in the sense

702
00:34:01.885 --> 00:34:04.485
that we haven't got a clear consensus about

703
00:34:04.485 --> 00:34:08.045
what the definition even is of wellbeing, about the causes,

704
00:34:08.785 --> 00:34:11.495
about what the problems are, about what the drivers.

705
00:34:12.475 --> 00:34:15.135
And this is to me an important point.

706
00:34:16.205 --> 00:34:19.615
Many of these proposed solutions to the problems

707
00:34:19.615 --> 00:34:23.205
of lawyer wellbeing will have unintended consequences.

708
00:34:24.645 --> 00:34:28.465
So let's say you want to encourage employees

709
00:34:28.465 --> 00:34:30.145
to self-disclose their problems.

710
00:34:31.485 --> 00:34:35.475
Let's say you want to improve work life balance.

711
00:34:36.945 --> 00:34:41.595
What are the implications for that of employers in terms

712
00:34:41.615 --> 00:34:44.835
of finances in the post covid landscape

713
00:34:44.835 --> 00:34:46.515
where we're now talking about a new world

714
00:34:46.515 --> 00:34:48.155
around remote working, working from home?

715
00:34:48.225 --> 00:34:52.235
What are the limits of encouraging an employee to be mindful

716
00:34:53.455 --> 00:34:58.135
in a culture that is marked by high competition

717
00:34:58.595 --> 00:34:59.975
and conformity to goals?

718
00:35:00.835 --> 00:35:04.835
Uh, the whole debate is marked

719
00:35:04.895 --> 00:35:06.475
by these contradictions.

720
00:35:07.575 --> 00:35:10.515
So to summarize, we're at a point

721
00:35:10.515 --> 00:35:12.075
where we keep saying there's a problem.

722
00:35:13.195 --> 00:35:14.775
We say we need culture change,

723
00:35:16.435 --> 00:35:19.015
but if we dig a bit deeper, we can see

724
00:35:19.015 --> 00:35:20.575
how complex this problem is.

725
00:35:20.595 --> 00:35:22.615
And I think there's a lot of unanswered questions there.

726
00:35:22.955 --> 00:35:25.495
So I hope in this interview for anybody watching,

727
00:35:25.565 --> 00:35:27.455
they've got a flavor of what is going on

728
00:35:27.455 --> 00:35:29.615
around wellbeing in the legal profession

729
00:35:29.755 --> 00:35:32.655
and law schools, what some of the issues are,

730
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but also why it's much more complicated than it might

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sometimes seem just from the headlines in the press.

Growing Focus on Lawyer Wellbeing

00:00:00 - There's been this growing interest in the wellbeing and mental health of lawyers, and it's happened across legal professions globally. and it's become an increasingly prominent part of the legal landscape, I think, and across legal communities, what you're seeing is an attempt to better understand the problems that lawyers face, but also to do something about it. And at the same time as that has been going on in the legal profession, against the backdrop of what's been this heightened concern about wellbeing and mental health in universities,

00:00:37 - and this predates the COVID-19 pandemic, there's been growing concern about the wellbeing and mental health of law students and in the field of legal education. So just this year, this year, the International Bar Association have produced guidelines on wellbeing in legal education and law schools. So to put all of that together, there's been an explosion of research and literature on wellbeing

00:01:06 - We have got a multitude of empirical research studies of lawyer wellbeing that're both in general terms. So example 2021, the International Bar Association does a global survey of lawyer wellbeing. The same year the legal charity law care produces life in the law. And that is the first cross profession study of wellbeing of lawyers in the uk. And I was one of the members

Wellbeing Challenges in the Legal Profession

00:01:38 - At the same time, we get studies of specific groups of lawyers. So for example, solicitors in large corporate law firms, family lawyers, legal aid lawyers, barristers and so on. Many lawyers and law students, the research suggests, appear to face problems around wellbeing and mental health in the course of their legal careers. And for some students in studying law itself,

00:02:07 - that many in the law are surviving but not thriving. this has become the focus of an extensive discussion in the legal professional press, but also in the national and international media. So before this interview, just two weekends ago, the Times is running a, a piece here about the issues facing, it says confessions of millennial lawyers. You know, these lawyers are earning all this money but have all these problems.

00:02:41 - of legal workplace cultures by the regulators like the Solicitor's Regulation Authority. We've had a succession of wellness networks, task forces, wellbeing guidelines. And increasingly you get this phrase, the profession is in a crisis. It's at the tipping point. So for solicitors, barristers, legal executives, judges,

Shifting Paradigms: The Rising Focus on Wellbeing in Legal Education

00:03:08 - who are involved in law teaching for everybody in the administration of justice, wellbeing, I would argue, has become an increasingly kind of hot topic. It's part of the cultural fabric of laws institutions I've been teaching many years, and we are in a different world now from where we were just 10 years ago on this. So to sort of wrap up, when you say the background, I'm,

00:03:39 - with Cambridge University Press. And what I'm trying to do is develop a more, a more nuanced understanding and ask, I'm asking two questions. Why now? Why have we had this interest in wellbeing over recently? Is I, I think in particular since around 2010, what's happened where wellbeing is now part of business strategy. It's about economic efficiency, it's about recruitment,

00:04:10 - It's even about the very future of some areas of legal services. But secondly, and I think this is the important thing in a way, all these studies are now saying that we need a culture change in the law. And that's been called for in the life in the law study I mentioned, it's in the International Borough Association's Global Survey. What you get is this repeated disconnect between the rhetoric of a kind of need for change.

Exploring Lawyer Wellbeing: A Broader Context

00:04:41 - to do something, but what the literature says is the reality of many lawyers' actual lives. So what I'm trying to do is explore the organizational culture, if I can put it that way, in which law is practiced and taught. And I think we need to see this. It's not just a profession problem. We've gotta locate it in a broader social, political economic context. I'll speak a little bit then to what's happened in the UK

00:05:14 - it back to research and a literature initially from the United States and then develop particularly in Australia. So a repeated phrase is used is that the UK sort of lagged behind what's happened elsewhere. So the U United States, Australia, this debate I think is much more developed than it is here. Where are we now? Then a key theme I think we cannot extrapolate from one area of law to another.

00:05:44 - corporate commercial law firm. It's not necessarily the same as what is going on in a high street firm or in a legal aid firm and so on. However, where are we now, there are some key themes or concerns that kind of link up and they resonate across the debate. so what do we see? What are the issues? Example, the argument that lawyers have a greater propensity to be at risk of depression, anxiety, and stress.

Challenges of Mental Health and Wellbeing in the Legal Profession

00:06:17 - that there is significant levels of negative stress, anxiety indeed loneliness in the legal profession. An example, the legal profession has had stigmatizing views to mental illness in the past. So this idea that people may be discriminated against if they speak out, there's that stigma. So that's a theme in the literature. example, I think this is an important one. There's been a particular focus on the experiences

00:06:47 - So let's say junior lawyers and a group called the Junior Lawyers Division of the Law Society. They did some wonderful surveys before the pandemic that looked at the specific problems facing those coming into the law. And the argument is that they may have local self-determination, low autonomy, so distinctive issues facing them, example. And I think we're seeing a growing focus on this that many lawyers may experience bullying,

00:07:19 - So some of these studies are talking about what we call the intersectional dimensions of wellbeing. So how factors like gender, race, ethnicity, socioeconomic, background, disability, are all part of these experiences of wellbeing. So what I've just tried to summarize are some of the themes in the literature, but I think, you know, to make it more real in a way, the question is what are the cause? There is no, there's no one.

Challenges of Wellbeing in the Legal Profession

00:07:50 - of issues that come together. But for people watching this, if this is of interest, these are the sorts of issues talked about, example, pressures for many lawyers associated with time billing. So they bill their time and having to work long hours. So this long hours culture. Now I know law's not alone in that, but it's a particular theme. The idea that law can often be a competitive high achievement, hierarchical kind of workplace,

00:08:25 - the pressures of client demands of being available for clients, example. And I find this, I find this really interesting, the arguments that there are certain assumptions about what it means to think like a lawyer and to be professional. So assumptions about emotional being the unemotional professional, being kind of invulnerable if you like. And there's a rich literature on the idea

00:08:54 - Get rid of emotion. Emotion is part of what we do and you can't strip it out. And lawyers will carry this emotion in what they do. linked to that, there's a theme about lawyers and law students that the law it's said, can attract certain types of personalities. So people, it's been said, who are competitive, highly driven perfectionist who are given to rumination,

Imposter Syndrome and Trauma in Legal Practice

00:09:30 - who may see themselves as imposters. If you put all those personality attributes and you link it to what's been called the pessimistic orientation of law, especially in adversarial legal systems. So you get a kind of catastrophizing mentality or is on the lookout for what may go wrong and that the argument goes, it's not good for wellbeing or mental health.

00:09:58 - I hope this gives some picture of the sorts of drivers coming here. Thanks. for some lawyers, there may be issues around dealing with traumatic material with highly vulnerable clients, the effects of trauma that may come from those client relationships. So you may get that in a family law, asylum law, immigration law for example. so vulnerable clients. Something that interests me, one of the themes in this research is

00:10:31 - and we've moved away from a more traditional idea of the legal profession to as a kind of public service. You know, that's what being a profession is. We're here to help people. And we've gone towards what's been called a financialized legal services sector sector, increasingly focused on commercial growth and profit making. Where what is valued, it's argued, is this ability to generate revenue.

Understanding Lawyer Wellbeing: Beyond Financial Factors

00:11:02 - competence, and skill and about the value of social work. So to put all of that together and try and summarize it here, the argument is not that those who enter the law are kind of genetically pre predisposed to poor wellbeing or mental health problems. It's not that. It's that you've got a coming together of these particular personal characteristics and issues around the environmental context

00:11:35 - And that's why all these reports and organizations say we need to rethink the culture and practices of law if we're gonna do something about lawyer wellbeing. For many lawyers, as we said, the issue isn't financial. There are some lawyers, especially perhaps in corporate commercial law firms who can earn significant amounts even early on in their career. So we know these lawyers newly qualified are 150,000 for example. We know that law continues to be seen as an area

00:12:06 - and the average salaries set along much of the UK population are arguably high. So maybe it's not financial example. Well, the supply side, if these are the problems faced by lawyers, people still want to study law at university and there's great competition to get into training contracts or for, into chambers and pupilage, you know, the supply side there. So people aren't being put off. Example. And I think this is important, if you put this discussion

Lawyer Wellbeing: Challenges and Rewards in a Shifting Landscape

00:12:44 - before, during, and after the pandemic, then how do the problems of lawyers compare to say, key workers in social care, the NHS teaching childcare essential services. Lawyers are not alone in experiencing these kinds of problems. It sounds like here I'm making an argument against my own argument that it matters. but we need to get that bigger picture. And I think an important thing, there has been a tendency

00:13:17 - but let's not forget the positive attitudinal features of wellbeing. You know, the positive things. 'cause what we also know is that many lawyers do enjoy and find deeply rewarding many aspects of their work. They may find it financially rewarding, but they'll find it rewarding in other ways as well. So what I've just said are some reasons why maybe we should be cautious. but there are three reasons why I would answer you

00:13:47 - Firstly, it matters to individual lawyers. We're talking here about avoidable problems, many avoidable problems with social consequences for individuals, for families, for colleagues, for friendship networks, for wider communities and in the workplace. Poor wellbeing can impact on how lawyers can do their work to the best of their ability. How they can think critically deal with setbacks, how they engage with others.

Ethical Implications of Lawyer Wellbeing

00:14:19 - because if you're in a highly regulated profession where lawyers are making these decisions, this will have implications. If, let's say, for example, poor ethical decisions are made that will have implications for individuals and it'll have implications for employers. So the first argument is this, and I think this is the important one. It's about individuals and we're talking about pain and suffering and that's what comes through.

00:14:52 - case, which we're familiar in different areas. this is a matter that's important for employers and regulators. For example, we know it's in the economic, social and interests of employers to have a healthy, productive workforce. core wellbeing has financial consequences and there are economic reasons why law firms should take this seriously.

00:15:24 - it's about commitment to the organizations we work in. It's about recruitment, it's about retention and the reputation of laws institutions. And increasingly for the employers, it's about showing leadership, showing that you care about your staff and that you want to be a progressive employer. So firstly, individuals. Secondly, employers, regulators, the profession itself.

Impact of Lawyer Wellbeing on Legal Integrity

00:15:56 - it's important for society to have a healthy, well-functioning legal profession. 'cause we need to remember lawyers play key roles in the administration of justice, that kind of gatekeepers to the rule of law. Now, if lawyers are engaging in ethically questionable conduct 'cause of poor wellbeing, that can have a potential impact on public perceptions of the profession. And that can affect the social legitimacy of the law.

00:16:27 - this conversation and the media reporting all these stories of crisis, of lawyers wellbeing, what's the impact of that? I mentioned all these reports, task force studies, unsurprisingly, a lot's happened, a lot's been done. I mean, what I would try and do, we have seen a shift over the past decade more, but particularly the past decade from what used to be a focus on providing advice

00:16:56 - You know, if you're in difficulty, we'll sign post advice. Here's where you can get support. The direction of travel has been towards embedding wellbeing and to trying to create mentally healthy workplaces. And you see this in bodies like the Solicits Regulation authority or the fantastic work by a legal charity called Law care, who I think have actually driven much of this agenda. So we've gone from the individual to try

Enhancing Lawyer Wellbeing: Individual and Collective Approaches

00:17:26 - and I would divide that into two. Some of this is focused on the individual themselves. So you get attempts to, what's it phrase, promote healthy cognitive styles of working, about personal growth, self-awareness, becoming resilient, managing stress and anxiety, becoming more aware of your own emotions, making sure you are in one program, you are fit for the law. Now that's all really desirable. They seem self-evidently good things,

00:17:59 - and they tend not to look at the broad social context in which all of this is happening. And the second strand, and I think this is where we are now, is increasing, there's attempt to bring together stakeholders across the law. So for example, the profession and the legal educators and to try and work together to try and address these concerns that have crossed professional level. And if you want an example of that, in 2021,

00:18:30 - It was the first time to try and look at this internationally, and it concludes with 10 wellbeing principles. And it summarizes what we've been talking about. Wait, very briefly, these are what they're saying, wellbeing, mental wellbeing matters. It is not a weakness. Raising awareness is fundamental. We need a commitment to change. Policies matter. So we need policies here.

Addressing Systemic Wellbeing Challenges in the Legal Profession

00:19:00 - and reading out these 10 points we have to address systemic problems. In other words, these aren't surface, these are kinda systemic in the profession. Recognize intersectionalities, I'll come back to that. When you asked me about DEI share good practice and learn from others, and there are other recommendations, that do similar things. So across the profession, you have bodies like law care, who I mentioned, who provide advice and support

00:19:32 - The law societies have all ratcheted up their engagement with wellbeing, trying to upskill their membership. we have bodies like the Junior Lawyers Division looking at the wellbeing of specific groups. The regulators have changed their engagement. And the solicitor's regulation is a good example there. They conducted a thematic review of legal workplace cultures. And we're now in an area where for the regulators, this is about the risks of failing to support colleagues.

00:20:04 - We know much about the wellbeing of barristers following a report in 2015. I do think much of the discussion in the press in the media has tended to focus on the large corporate commercial law firms. So let's remember, they may have problems, but they have the resources relative to others to address this. So it's here you get healthy body at work programs, you know, various know, know your triggers,

Challenges in Legal Wellbeing: Examining Structural Issues and Marginalized Groups

00:20:37 - Pilates, you know, bringing it into the structure of the firm. But I've got to say, what about elsewhere? What about in other areas of law? Because in these areas, let's say legal aid for example, it's not about bringing in kind of lifestyle adaptations into a lawyer's life. You know, it's not about introducing neck massage at lunchtimes or yoga and massage. You're talking about the structure, the impact of cuts

00:21:09 - For example. You're talking about the material conditions in which many lawyers are actually working, and you're talking about the very sustainability of some areas of legal services. So to go back to the very beginning, that's my point about not generalizing. I'll just say one thing on answer to your question about DEI. what we get from the studies and life in the law highlights this and the International Borough Association highlight this.

00:21:43 - by members of the legal community who are female from minoritized ethnic grouping or identity, or who have a disability. And the problems addressed seem to affect already vulnerable and historically marginalized groups. So this is one of the themes coming through that women ethnic minority groups, lawyers with disabilities may experience, for example, lower job autonomy or higher levels of burnout. One of the things I'm trying to argue in this book is that

Engaging Men in Diversity and Wellbeing Initiatives

00:22:16 - much of my work in the past was around masculinities, and fatherhood in particular. I'm sort of coming from that perspective. I do wonder if we need to ask what I might call a man question here and rest questions about men's engagement and involvement in this. what I mean is across organizations including the legal profession, there is a growing focus on getting men involved in diversity, equality, and inclusion agendas.

00:22:48 - that with some of their work. We know that if you want to advance wellbeing or DEI, you need to get senior figures in the law involved. But what we also know is that those senior figures are not withstanding agenda transformation at the entry to the profession. They still continue to be disproportionately men. You're talking about engaging men. So I just say two things in answering you.

00:23:20 - of these empirical studies of lawyer wellbeing, the majority of the respondents to the studies tend to be women lawyers. And in life in the law, I think this figures right, it was around 75%. Now that you have a study conducted during the pandemic and you're asking about lawyers' lives where in the context of working remote working, they may be juggling work and care responsibilities.

Exploring Masculinity and Wellbeing in Legal Education

00:23:49 - understanding what's happening there. So whose, whose voices are we listening to there? But I also think coming from the masculinity side, we know a lot about men, gender and health and mental health, or we know how men's reluctance to seek help at times, a difficulty can be informed by assumptions about masculinity around what it means to be a man. If we are gonna talk about wellbeing in this kind of way, we need to bring in that sort of gendered lens,

00:24:23 - I think the primary focus of much of this has been the legal profession and lawyer wellbeing, but there is now a rich literature on wellbeing in legal education. And increasingly in law schools, the bulk of it is focused on law students. Although more recently we are seeing a focus on the wellbeing of mental health of those who teach and research law. So people who do jobs like myself,

00:24:52 - the background to all of this, when if you say to me what's happening in the law schools, the wider background is, you may have heard this phrase, it's been in so much of the media the past decade or is this crisis of wellbeing and mental health in higher education across the sector. Now this predates the COVID-19 pandemic, but we have a succession of studies that suggest that

Endemic Mental Health Issues in Higher Education

00:25:23 - and poor psychological health has become endemic across the higher education sector. And in responding to this, we have a university mental health charter wellbeing is in the mission statements of universities. it's all around, you know, it's been a core commitment. I'll leave aside what's happening at the universities at the moment, that's another issue. But here we have this commitment to students generally and a ratcheting up of wellbeing support services. The same time that is going on.

00:25:57 - and that suggests law students may face particular kinds of problems. and there is a rich scholarship on that, especially from Australia, the United States. But no increasingly the uk there's no one factor. Some of the factors I think are generic across the student population, but some of them, interestingly are said to be specific to law. so what are we talking about? An obvious one.

00:26:29 - with the reforms that have happened. This is about the costs of financing and entering into the law. So the idea that legal education has become a kind of private good rather than a public good. And for law it may be the costs of incurring further training going on to get training, you know, to go into the profession itself. One of the arguments is we're seeing concerns about am I getting value for money now in this marketplace? You know, comparing, is this what I wanted this to be?

Challenges of Legal Education and Student Wellbeing

00:27:03 - the students who the experiences of so many students during those lockdowns there 9,000 pounds for what is this, what my university experiences? So there, here's a factor. one of the themes in the literature is a thing around a fear of failure. The idea that legal education can be very competitive like practice and that we don't wanna let others down. so that needing to succeed, remembering,

00:27:31 - to then go on into the profession. So you have that competition aspect. I think there's a bigger context and that is evidence of the scale of poor mental health among young adults and the increasing cultural visibility of these issues. One of the things I think driving this that is very important is the idea. We are seeing a generational shift now that people are more prepared to be open and to speak about issues around wellbeing and mental health.

00:28:02 - and it's driving this change. You have issues in, the law schools and universities just more generally about life course transitions. You know, making that transition for the, for those who are traditional undergraduate students, you know, so friendships, peer relationships, social media use. Let's not forget many students are combining their studies with paid employment. They may have caring obligations, they will experience a range of personal health

Embedding Wellbeing in Legal Education: A Cultural Shift

00:28:33 - You know, you can so many different factors. I think this is an important one in terms of the debate in law. There is a strand of work who are of a work that is exploring the nature of the law degree itself and it's trying to embed wellbeing in legal education. And one of the arguments there, and it goes back to what we said earlier, is that you can't strip out emotion, for example,

00:29:04 - But we need to rethink how law is under approached as a subject. and a lot of work is going on to exploring the nature of the law curriculum itself. So to put all of that together, there's no one driver, they're just, some of them you've got in ratcheting up of the institutional support. When I start teaching law, you didn't have departmental wellbeing officers, you didn't have the word wellbeing. And the every email signature that we have now, you know, it's culturally pervasive.

00:29:35 - We now have guidelines on wellbeing, the International Bar Association, and then you have this embedding wellbeing and need education. and I can't not say, not add something about this, that there is a lot of work now on the wellbeing of those who work in universities. It's tend to focus on academic staff, but I forget, professional services, staff, staff across the universities library, you know, this is all of us, we're all in this. So there is a bigger picture there. So I hope that is something on the law students,

Understanding Wellbeing in the Legal Profession: Context and Challenges

00:30:12 - I, I'm trying to do a number of things in the book, as a general theme. It's to shift this from being a profession specific problem, to put it in a broader social context and to ask that why now question, why have we got here and why has this happened over recent years? And I think that's the really, to me, that's a really interesting question.

00:30:40 - so difficult, gonna be so difficult to solve themes very quickly. I said earlier, we can't generalize. I think there's been a tendency in some of the literature, assume that these factors in a private practice law firm, you know, long hours competitive cultures will apply us where they won't. Let's look at the bigger picture of what's going on here. two, I think there is a tension because the legal community is radiating all these messages,

00:31:14 - engaging self-care, take time out from work. We know from the studies, many lawyers do that already. They are engaged in a wide range of self-care practices. The problem is that we come against the realities of the demands in the context of an overarching organizational commitment to this economic bottom line in the context of these cultural shifts that have happened. This is the reality. So what's been said,

Complex Realities of Lawyer Wellbeing

00:31:43 - but what is the actual reality of the demands people are facing? I think this is a tricky one. Some of the features that have been seen as kind of pathological in the literature, you know, so, high levels of anxiety and stress, for example, you could see them as kind of pathologies that somebody's deficit. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm too anxious, I'm too stressful and so on. But let's remember that these can have a kind

00:32:16 - to make sure that people do remain competitive, that they can meet billing targets and the demands of performance management, that they can manage risk and feel psychologically safe. So that professional identity is more complex than simply saying these are pathological. There's a, an Australian writer, Janet Chan used this phrase, you've got this contradiction of a kind of normative legal culture that has this paradox

00:32:47 - in working conditions conducive to stress. And if I follow on from that, we're seeing a focus on making people resilient. And that sounds great. Who, you know, resilience, clearly we need to be resilient. And yet are we moving to a position where rather than call on resilience, you know, at times a difficulty in life, which we all have, you know, where we will need to be resilient.

Resilience, Wellbeing, and Workplace Challenges

00:33:18 - just to get by. You need to be resilient all the time in the light of the demands that are being put on you. So what you do is you are making it about personal individual adaptations. You adapt to the pressures you face. What you don't do is then look at the social, cultural, political context in which we are being asked to bear these burdens, as it were. That's where it becomes political. I said something about whose wellbeing, the talking about the final point I would say to end,

00:33:52 - of area, other areas of employment as well. But I do wonder if this is a wicked problem for the profession in the sense that we haven't got a clear consensus about what the definition even is of wellbeing, about the causes, about what the problems are, about what the drivers. And this is to me an important point. Many of these proposed solutions to the problems of lawyer wellbeing will have unintended consequences.

00:34:28 - to self-disclose their problems. Let's say you want to improve work life balance. What are the implications for that of employers in terms of finances in the post covid landscape where we're now talking about a new world around remote working, working from home? What are the limits of encouraging an employee to be mindful in a culture that is marked by high competition

Exploring the Complexity of Lawyer Wellbeing

00:35:00 - the whole debate is marked by these contradictions. So to summarize, we're at a point where we keep saying there's a problem. We say we need culture change, but if we dig a bit deeper, we can see how complex this problem is. And I think there's a lot of unanswered questions there. So I hope in this interview for anybody watching, they've got a flavor of what is going on around wellbeing in the legal profession

00:35:37 - but also why it's much more complicated than it might sometimes seem just from the headlines in the press.

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