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Michael Gonzalez discusses war and the influence of Islam on provincial Spanish and Mexican California between 1769 and 1846.

Image courtesy of interviewee. August 19, 2024

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In a discussion led by Professor Gonzalez, the context and aims of his study are explored, highlighting his interest in the historical and cultural exchanges between Islam and Christianity, particularly through the lens of the Franciscan priests who were influential in California during the 18th and 19th centuries. He reflects on his personal discovery of genetic ties to the Muslim world, leading him to investigate the deeper cultural connections between Muslims and Christians, especially in Spain.

The professor examines the paradox of the Franciscan priests, who often resorted to violence in their missionary work despite Christianity's teachings on peace and love. He notes that the majority of the priests came from southern Spain, where Islamic influence had been significant due to nearly 800 years of Muslim control over the region. Gonzalez argues that principles like jihad and rabat, which were militarized during the Islamic expansion into Spain, were absorbed and adapted by the Christians.

Moreover, he addresses the religious justifications for military actions taken by Spanish Christians, emphasizing their belief that fighting for God allowed them to atone for sins. The cross-cultural exchanges between Islamic and Spanish ideologies created a context where violence was sometimes rationalized as divine will.

In conclusion, Gonzalez suggests future research should focus on the broader cultural connections between the Islamic world and Latin America, using his findings as a cautionary tale about the dangers of conflating divine sanction with moral righteousness in the context of violence. He advocates for a deeper understanding of how such historical attitudes can inform contemporary issues of faith and conflict.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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I wanted to expand and,

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and, enhance the vision

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and the discussion about the, the, the,

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the Franciscan priest who came to California

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in the 18th and 19th century.

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Um, the second point was I wanted to also

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expand upon the in cultural exchanges between Islam

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and Christianity, especially through Spain.

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Uh, and in a, on a very personal note, one

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of the ways I became interested in this topic, I went

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through 23 and me,

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and I discovered that in my genome, at least 5% of my genome

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comes from what, basically the, the Muslim world,

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Northern Africa and base and, and Syria

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and other people who share my heritage,

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being Mexican in origin.

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Um, they have, they have proportions as high as 10%, 15%.

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And I was really intrigued, by this,

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this genetic connection.

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And I, as I began to explore this topic, even some more,

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there are obviously some very deep,

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rich cultural connections as well, from philosophy,

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language, architecture, expressions of religiosity.

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Um, and, and I thought this is a really rich topic.

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So this brings me back to the Franciscan priests.

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And one of the topics that has always interested me is

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that the Franciscan priests were,

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were not shy about using force, about

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bringing Indians into the missions.

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And I began to really think about this topic.

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Where, where did this impulse come from?

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Since Christ Christians,

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and I say this as a, as a practicing Roman Catholic,

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supposedly, supposedly Christianity is supposed

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to follow Jesus' teachings about turning the other cheek,

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loving your enemy, not to use, violence or force,

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or bring people into the faith.

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And then began to think, where does this impulse come from,

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where the Franciscan priests committed sometimes

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horrific acts of violence to increase the

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ranks of the faithful.

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And as I began to do more research, I discovered

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that outta the 145 Spanish priests who came to California

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between 1769

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and 1834

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to establish 21 missions along the California coast,

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140 of them, a hundred, 140 of them came from Spain.

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And a good majority

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of these priests came from southern Spain,

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where the Muslim influence is, was very strong.

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'cause, as, as you know, Muslims controlled Spain

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for nearly, 800 years,

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and especially in the southern portions of Spain.

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Uh, that presence, was nearly fr.

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I mean, that was where the deepest impression was made.

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And I began to think, okay, there must be some connection

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between the priests,

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Uh, the cultural interchange between Christians

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and Muslims in Spain.

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And they began to dig deeper.

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And that's where I discovered these, these principles

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that Muslims use.

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And according to the Christian calendar, in the eighth

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and ninth century, to expand the, the, the frontiers

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of Islam into Spain

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and battling their Christian, their Christian rivals,

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some Muslims invoked, some principles found in the Quran

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and the Haddi, as well as other, other writings in order

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to justify, expanding the frontiers of Islam.

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And then as Islam expanded deeper into Spain,

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the Christians, absorbed these principles, adopted them,

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tailored them to their, to their, to their liking.

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And then this became part of, of Christian culture.

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Um, so this crus, this crusading ethos,

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which we see obviously in, in,

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what we now call the Holy Land, the Middle East,

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this crusading ethos also emerged in, in Spain.

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And it was basically, the product of an interchange

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between Christian

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and Islam cult Islamic culture concerning, using force

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and sanctifying force by, with, with these appeals to,

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to religion, to God.

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Um, and these impulses became part

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of the Franciscan attitude and demeanor,

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and they brought these attitudes to California.

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The central part of the argument is that as the, when, when,

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when the, the Muslims pushed deeper into Spain,

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in the eighth and ninth century, according

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to the Christian calendar, they invoke these,

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these precepts called rabat and,

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and jihad, which jihad just means struggle.

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Where bot means comes from the Arabic we we

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to bind together.

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Uh, but the, these principles,

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however,

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when you're facing an enemy like you see in Christian Spain,

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or, well, these, you have mus, the Muslim south,

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the Christian North, these principles became militarized.

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'cause as the Muslims confronted the Christian rivals,

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Reba means to not, you bind to, you bind together

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to defend the faith.

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And when you defend the faith,

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you can also atone for your sins.

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Jihad goes from struggle, which means struggle,

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obviously with the spirit,

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but struggle now means struggle against your enemies.

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So the central argument I wanted to make was

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that these principles of jihad

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and ramat, become transferred over to the,

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the Spanish Christians.

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And then these, these principles become part

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of Spanish culture.

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And when the Spaniards, come to California,

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they invoke these principles that you can atone

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for your sins, by banning together

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to defend the faith,

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You, this becomes an act of warship.

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And so this, these two ideas, jihad

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and ramat become, become very, militarized,

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and they become basically the foundation

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of the Spanish expansion in into California.

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Um, and to establish the missions.

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Now, I i I, I would want to emphasize here that, one

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of my, one of my reviewers for this article accused me

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of being an orientalist.

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And by taking this particular line of reasoning,

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and I counter it by saying that Edward Saeed argues

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that Orientalism basically is the idea is when Westerners

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use some, some aspect of Muslim,

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or, Muslim culture

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or Middle Eastern culture

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to justify imperialism Western expansion.

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What I, what I wanted to counter by, by saying is that

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Islam enriched,

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and really improved upon Christian and Western culture.

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And this is only one aspect among many,

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many contributions to Western culture.

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You have this military spirit,

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but also, by focusing on the military aspect,

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as my article makes clear,

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and not only am I talking about the military aspect of,

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of Muslim, of Islam's contributions to Christianity,

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I also wanted to bring up,

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and I'll do this in subsequent writings,

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how philosophically, religiously, architecturally,

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Islam also really contributed to

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and even enriched Christian culture.

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We would not have the west, this idea

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of the West without the contributions

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of Muslim thinkers in Northern Africa,

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especially in places like the Middle East.

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I mean, Islam's Islam saved Western civilization.

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Uh, I mean, that's a whole

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nother discussion for another day.

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So focusing on the military is only one aspect

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of a larger discussion.

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So I wanna make that quite clear when you read the,

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at least, okay, this is me,

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and I recognize that when I published my article,

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someone accused me of being anti-Catholic,

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anti-Christian for, for making the argument that I did.

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So that's life, that's academia.

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Um, but the justifications, if you read the evidence

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and you see these constant invocations to, to God, I mean,

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just know, I mean, all throughout history, military,

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leaders, warriors

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of all sorts always invoke some higher power

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to justify their acts.

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That's no great insight.

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However, the language that the

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Catholics, the Spanish

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and Mexican Catholics in California, the priests

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and the, and the,

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and their members of their congregations,

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the way they speak, they ask God to bless them.

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They ask God to, to,

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Uh, help, purge them of their sins.

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And you, this brings us back to what happened in, in Spain,

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where when these followers would band together and pray

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or even fight their Christian rivals, they hoped to,

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purge themselves of sin, the aone

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for their sins and lessen at least.

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And I, I know that Islam does not have the

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idea of purgatory.

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Um, but I, from reading the Quran, I think there is the idea

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that you could be, you could lessen your time,

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be released from hell by, atoning for your sins.

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Christianity does not necessarily have that.

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Um, Christianity has purgatory,

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and there's this another world between

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paradise and, and hell.

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And the way that Christians took this idea by fighting

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for God and fighting for, of course,

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God does not want any of this to happen.

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'cause war is a sin, and both Islam and Christianity.

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But that's another discussion for another day.

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But the point remains that the language that used,

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I could purge myself of sin if I fight against my enemy,

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or I can purge myself of sin if I am trying

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to bring Indians into, into a, a, a Christian mission.

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Um, and by purging myself of sin becomes an act

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of perfection and also becomes an act of pilgrimage.

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'cause one of the big urges of Christianity,

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in the Middle Ages and up through, up

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through I say the 19th century,

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especially in the Spanish speaking world,

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this is one more point, another discussion for another day.

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Uh, there are many scholars who say that the Middle Ages,

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the Christian Middle Ages made their last stand in Mexico.

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And these medieval attitudes about traveling to Jerusalem.

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And as you walked to Jerusalem, if you're a pilgrim,

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whether they be Spain or France

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or Germany, as you walked through Jerusalem,

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you could atone for your sins.

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'cause this journey, this spiritual journey, as well

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as this physical journey was a, was one way

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of drawing closer to God.

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But as you drew closer to God, by going to the holy city

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of Jerusalem, you're able to, purge yourself of sin.

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This idea of, of, of,

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purgation this idea of, of cleansing, an idea

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of fighting and, serving as a,

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as a pilgrim sort of converge in California.

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'cause you get this sense that as I fight, as I traveled

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to fight my enemy, I am a toning for my sins.

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And this is an idea that's very medieval about how fighting,

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traveling to the sacred city

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of Jerusalem becomes transposed onto California.

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I'm fighting and traveling deeper into the California

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interior to bring Indians into, into the mission.

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And that's both, both, both for the priests

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and for, their, their, their members

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of the congregation, usually, Mexican

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and in some respects, Spanish soldiers. I think

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Right now, the the West is very polarized.

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They're, I think that some parts of Western culture

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are becoming more insular.

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There's fear about difference.

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And even though my, my article,

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in this article at least talks about the violence

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and force, on a deeper level, I'm talking about a,

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a, well, two things.

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One, I'm talking about the, the connections between Islam

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and the West, especially western Christianity.

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And the ways, as I said earlier, the ways of making war.

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Only one of many, many connections.

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Um, and I think that

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as historians could do more to talk about the architecture,

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I dunno if you've ever been to California,

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but you've got what they call Spanish style architecture.

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To my eyes, it's sure it's Spanish,

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but it could be the architecture that you might,

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I've never been to the Middle East.

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I've never been to Northern Africa.

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I've never been to, the Holy Land.

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But I would imagine there's a particular

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style of architecture.

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Um, and this particular style

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of architecture is Islamic and origin.

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And that informs Spain's approach architecture.

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And that becomes transported over to California.

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Um, and in terms of religiosity, I think again,

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war is only one way of expressing, expressing faith.

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Uh, but I think that the way the Spaniards,

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the way the Spaniards worship the divine,

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you can see some parallels as, as Muslims a is a good Muslim

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was supposed to make at least once in his, when once in his

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or her life, go to, to Mecca.

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Uh, the Spanish Christians compensated by,

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I don't know if you're familiar with Compostela.

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Compostela is a pilgrim of site in northern Spain, to,

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it's a, it's arine to St.

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James. Um, so as a as,

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and during the mid Spanish middle,

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during the Middle Ages in Spain,

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the Spanish Christians thought, Hey, wait, look at this.

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I mean, you got, mu, a good Muslim goes to Mecca.

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Uh, and according to us, some scholars, Kapost becomes the

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Spanish Christian, Spanish Christian version of,

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of Mecca.

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So instead of a, instead of going to Mecca,

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a Christian now goes to Compostela.

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The pay homage to St. James, St. James is a warrior saint.

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Um, and so supposedly, according to Islam,

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angels fought on the side of, of, of the Muslim warriors.

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As, as they, I guess the Quran speaks about,

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the heaven will, will aid a warrior in the sacred cause

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against enemies.

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And for the Spanish Christians,

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Saint James becomes this warrior saint.

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Um, as Muslims had this, this, this divide as assistance.

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Now, the Spanish Christian said, well, we've got,

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we've got, we've got St.

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James, he's gonna help us.

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Um, so you have, in this sense,

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you've got this interchange. So I think

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In one sense, you've got this, the, what I want

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to explore more, and I hope my colleagues will,

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will do the same, is continue exploring the cultural

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connections between the Islamic world

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and Iber American world.

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I've already talked about the genetic inheritance than many

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people of Mexican

15:10.105 --> 15:13.405
and Latin American origin share, with, with the,

15:14.325 --> 15:15.375
with the Muslim world.

15:15.675 --> 15:18.935
But I think also use this, my study, as

15:20.115 --> 15:22.935
my article in Conserv as a case study, that shows

15:23.045 --> 15:25.095
what happens if you become so convinced

15:25.095 --> 15:26.655
that God is on your side.

15:27.435 --> 15:30.215
Um, you're going commit all sorts of atrocities.

15:30.835 --> 15:32.455
And you can certainly, well,

15:32.675 --> 15:33.815
I'm gonna get too political here,

15:33.815 --> 15:36.055
but you can see what's going on right now in, in Gaza.

15:36.055 --> 15:38.295
You've got Israelis who believe that God,

15:39.035 --> 15:40.815
God is on their side, they're on the right,

15:40.875 --> 15:42.775
and if they're on the right, they can do anything they want.

15:43.475 --> 15:46.975
And my article points about the folly of this thinking,

15:47.285 --> 15:49.455
because this leads to the certain arrogance.

15:49.455 --> 15:51.535
So you, you're beyond, if you believe you're fighting

15:51.635 --> 15:53.455
for the right and you're fighting,

15:53.475 --> 15:54.695
for the sake of righteousness.

15:54.715 --> 15:56.775
If you believe you're fighting for the sake of God,

15:57.075 --> 15:58.775
you cannot make any mistakes.

15:58.835 --> 16:00.735
You cannot commit any sins.

16:01.115 --> 16:05.255
Uh, that is, and my article shows that,

16:05.355 --> 16:07.775
at least in the context of Mexico, California,

16:08.115 --> 16:10.015
and then believe this can be applied to other parts

16:10.015 --> 16:14.135
of the world, this leads to really disastrous consequences.

16:14.715 --> 16:16.895
Um, you think you're beyond reproach.

16:17.355 --> 16:19.215
Um, you're, you're above criticism.

16:19.635 --> 16:24.415
And that has tragic, tragic, and horrible consequences

16:24.765 --> 16:27.255
because the Spanish priests believed if,

16:27.555 --> 16:30.655
if I burn a village, I kill some Indians.

16:31.515 --> 16:34.895
Hey, I'm doing it for God and he's gonna forgive me if it's

16:34.895 --> 16:36.215
because, for a greater cause.

16:36.835 --> 16:40.335
Um, and that, that is a, that was a big mistake.

16:40.795 --> 16:42.415
Um, a mistake is an understatement.

16:42.415 --> 16:43.615
That's a, it's a tragedy.

16:44.155 --> 16:46.335
And now, ironically enough to speak in religious terms,

16:46.515 --> 16:47.655
that's also a sin.

16:47.895 --> 16:52.455
I don't think that the, abramic God, that both Islam,

16:52.565 --> 16:54.095
that that Christianity, Islam

16:54.095 --> 16:56.695
and Judaism worship would, would necessarily tolerate,

16:57.275 --> 16:59.655
or that God, this God would tolerate,

16:59.915 --> 17:03.775
or accept, understand, much less welcome these acts

17:03.775 --> 17:05.255
of violence committed,

17:05.515 --> 17:08.255
in this di divin Divine Figure's name.

17:08.835 --> 17:12.495
Um, so that I think that, so two cases continue exploring,

17:12.955 --> 17:15.015
the interchange between Islam

17:15.115 --> 17:16.415
and the Spanish Christian world.

17:16.635 --> 17:20.215
And another level. My study can serve as a cautionary tale.

17:20.235 --> 17:22.415
But what happens if you are so convinced

17:22.645 --> 17:24.455
that you're fighting on behalf of God?

17:24.725 --> 17:27.855
That this leads to all sorts of, of tragic consequences.

"Cultural Interchange and Historical Connections: The Franciscan Missionaries and the Legacy of Islam in California"

00:00:00 - I wanted to expand and, and, enhance the vision and the discussion about the, the, the, the Franciscan priest who came to California in the 18th and 19th century. the second point was I wanted to also expand upon the in cultural exchanges between Islam and Christianity, especially through Spain. and in a, on a very personal note, one of the ways I became interested in this topic, I went through 23 and me, and I discovered that in my genome, at least 5% of my genome
00:00:44 - Northern Africa and base and, and Syria and other people who share my heritage, being Mexican in origin. they have, they have proportions as high as 10%, 15%. And I was really intrigued, by this, this genetic connection. And I, as I began to explore this topic, even some more, there are obviously some very deep, rich cultural connections as well, from philosophy, language, architecture, expressions of religiosity. and, and I thought this is a really rich topic.
00:01:24 - And one of the topics that has always interested me is that the Franciscan priests were, were not shy about using force, about bringing Indians into the missions. And I began to really think about this topic. Where, where did this impulse come from? Since Christ Christians, and I say this as a, as a practicing Roman Catholic, supposedly, supposedly Christianity is supposed to follow Jesus' teachings about turning the other cheek, loving your enemy, not to use, violence or force, or bring people into the faith. And then began to think, where does this impulse come from, where the Franciscan priests committed sometimes
00:02:07 - ranks of the faithful. And as I began to do more research, I discovered that outta the 145 Spanish priests who came to California between 1769 and 1834 to establish 21 missions along the California coast, 140 of them, a hundred, 140 of them came from Spain. And a good majority of these priests came from southern Spain, where the Muslim influence is, was very strong. 'cause, as, as you know, Muslims controlled Spain for nearly, 800 years, and especially in the southern portions of Spain.
00:02:50 - I mean, that was where the deepest impression was made. And I began to think, okay, there must be some connection between the priests, the cultural interchange between Christians and Muslims in Spain. And they began to dig deeper. And that's where I discovered these, these principles that Muslims use. And according to the Christian calendar, in the eighth and ninth century, to expand the, the, the frontiers of Islam into Spain and battling their Christian, their Christian rivals, some Muslims invoked, some principles found in the Quran
00:03:32 - to justify, expanding the frontiers of Islam. And then as Islam expanded deeper into Spain, the Christians, absorbed these principles, adopted them, tailored them to their, to their, to their liking. And then this became part of, of Christian culture. so this crus, this crusading ethos, which we see obviously in, in, what we now call the Holy Land, the Middle East, this crusading ethos also emerged in, in Spain. And it was basically, the product of an interchange

"Exploring the Militarization of Religious Ideals: The Impact of Islam on Franciscan Practices in California"

00:04:11 - and Islam cult Islamic culture concerning, using force and sanctifying force by, with, with these appeals to, to religion, to God. and these impulses became part of the Franciscan attitude and demeanor, and they brought these attitudes to California. The central part of the argument is that as the, when, when, when the, the Muslims pushed deeper into Spain, in the eighth and ninth century, according to the Christian calendar, they invoke these, these precepts called rabat and, and jihad, which jihad just means struggle.
00:04:53 - to bind together. but the, these principles, however, when you're facing an enemy like you see in Christian Spain, or, well, these, you have mus, the Muslim south, the Christian North, these principles became militarized. 'cause as the Muslims confronted the Christian rivals, Reba means to not, you bind to, you bind together to defend the faith. And when you defend the faith, you can also atone for your sins. Jihad goes from struggle, which means struggle, obviously with the spirit, but struggle now means struggle against your enemies. So the central argument I wanted to make was
00:05:33 - and ramat, become transferred over to the, the Spanish Christians. And then these, these principles become part of Spanish culture. And when the Spaniards, come to California, they invoke these principles that you can atone for your sins, by banning together to defend the faith, You, this becomes an act of warship. And so this, these two ideas, jihad and ramat become, become very, militarized, and they become basically the foundation of the Spanish expansion in into California. and to establish the missions.
00:06:18 - of my, one of my reviewers for this article accused me of being an orientalist. And by taking this particular line of reasoning, and I counter it by saying that Edward Saeed argues that Orientalism basically is the idea is when Westerners use some, some aspect of Muslim, or, Muslim culture or Middle Eastern culture to justify imperialism Western expansion. What I, what I wanted to counter by, by saying is that Islam enriched, and really improved upon Christian and Western culture.
00:07:00 - many contributions to Western culture. You have this military spirit, but also, by focusing on the military aspect, as my article makes clear, and not only am I talking about the military aspect of, of Muslim, of Islam's contributions to Christianity, I also wanted to bring up, and I'll do this in subsequent writings, how philosophically, religiously, architecturally, Islam also really contributed to and even enriched Christian culture. We would not have the west, this idea of the West without the contributions of Muslim thinkers in Northern Africa, especially in places like the Middle East.
00:07:43 - I mean, that's a whole nother discussion for another day. So focusing on the military is only one aspect of a larger discussion. So I wanna make that quite clear when you read the, at least, okay, this is me, and I recognize that when I published my article, someone accused me of being anti-Catholic, anti-Christian for, for making the argument that I did. So that's life, that's academia. but the justifications, if you read the evidence and you see these constant invocations to, to God, I mean, just know, I mean, all throughout history, military,

"The Convergence of Faith, War, and Cultural Identity in Colonial California"

00:08:24 - of all sorts always invoke some higher power to justify their acts. That's no great insight. However, the language that the Catholics, the Spanish and Mexican Catholics in California, the priests and the, and the, and their members of their congregations, the way they speak, they ask God to bless them. They ask God to, to, help, purge them of their sins. And you, this brings us back to what happened in, in Spain,
00:09:07 - or even fight their Christian rivals, they hoped to, purge themselves of sin, the aone for their sins and lessen at least. And I, I know that Islam does not have the idea of purgatory. but I, from reading the Quran, I think there is the idea that you could be, you could lessen your time, be released from hell by, atoning for your sins. Christianity does not necessarily have that. Christianity has purgatory, and there's this another world between paradise and, and hell. And the way that Christians took this idea by fighting for God and fighting for, of course,
00:09:48 - 'cause war is a sin, and both Islam and Christianity. But that's another discussion for another day. But the point remains that the language that used, I could purge myself of sin if I fight against my enemy, or I can purge myself of sin if I am trying to bring Indians into, into a, a, a Christian mission. and by purging myself of sin becomes an act of perfection and also becomes an act of pilgrimage. 'cause one of the big urges of Christianity, in the Middle Ages and up through, up through I say the 19th century, especially in the Spanish speaking world, this is one more point, another discussion for another day.
00:10:30 - the Christian Middle Ages made their last stand in Mexico. And these medieval attitudes about traveling to Jerusalem. And as you walked to Jerusalem, if you're a pilgrim, whether they be Spain or France or Germany, as you walked through Jerusalem, you could atone for your sins. 'cause this journey, this spiritual journey, as well as this physical journey was a, was one way of drawing closer to God. But as you drew closer to God, by going to the holy city of Jerusalem, you're able to, purge yourself of sin. This idea of, of, of, purgation this idea of, of cleansing, an idea
00:11:12 - as a pilgrim sort of converge in California. 'cause you get this sense that as I fight, as I traveled to fight my enemy, I am a toning for my sins. And this is an idea that's very medieval about how fighting, traveling to the sacred city of Jerusalem becomes transposed onto California. I'm fighting and traveling deeper into the California interior to bring Indians into, into the mission. And that's both, both, both for the priests and for, their, their, their members of the congregation, usually, Mexican and in some respects, Spanish soldiers. I think
00:11:55 - They're, I think that some parts of Western culture are becoming more insular. There's fear about difference. And even though my, my article, in this article at least talks about the violence and force, on a deeper level, I'm talking about a, a, well, two things. One, I'm talking about the, the connections between Islam and the West, especially western Christianity. And the ways, as I said earlier, the ways of making war. Only one of many, many connections. and I think that as historians could do more to talk about the architecture,

"Cultural Intersections: The Influence of Islamic Architecture and Spirituality in Spanish and Californian Contexts"

00:12:37 - but you've got what they call Spanish style architecture. To my eyes, it's sure it's Spanish, but it could be the architecture that you might, I've never been to the Middle East. I've never been to Northern Africa. I've never been to, the Holy Land. But I would imagine there's a particular style of architecture. and this particular style of architecture is Islamic and origin. And that informs Spain's approach architecture. And that becomes transported over to California. and in terms of religiosity, I think again, war is only one way of expressing, expressing faith.
00:13:21 - the way the Spaniards worship the divine, you can see some parallels as, as Muslims a is a good Muslim was supposed to make at least once in his, when once in his or her life, go to, to Mecca. the Spanish Christians compensated by, I don't know if you're familiar with Compostela. Compostela is a pilgrim of site in northern Spain, to, it's a, it's arine to St. James. so as a as, and during the mid Spanish middle, during the Middle Ages in Spain, the Spanish Christians thought, Hey, wait, look at this. I mean, you got, mu, a good Muslim goes to Mecca. and according to us, some scholars, Kapost becomes the
00:14:04 - of Mecca. So instead of a, instead of going to Mecca, a Christian now goes to Compostela. The pay homage to St. James, St. James is a warrior saint. and so supposedly, according to Islam, angels fought on the side of, of, of the Muslim warriors. As, as they, I guess the Quran speaks about, the heaven will, will aid a warrior in the sacred cause against enemies. And for the Spanish Christians, Saint James becomes this warrior saint. as Muslims had this, this, this divide as assistance. Now, the Spanish Christian said, well, we've got,
00:14:43 - James, he's gonna help us. so you have, in this sense, you've got this interchange. So I think In one sense, you've got this, the, what I want to explore more, and I hope my colleagues will, will do the same, is continue exploring the cultural connections between the Islamic world and Iber American world. I've already talked about the genetic inheritance than many people of Mexican and Latin American origin share, with, with the, with the Muslim world. But I think also use this, my study, as my article in Conserv as a case study, that shows
00:15:25 - that God is on your side. you're going commit all sorts of atrocities. And you can certainly, well, I'm gonna get too political here, but you can see what's going on right now in, in Gaza. You've got Israelis who believe that God, God is on their side, they're on the right, and if they're on the right, they can do anything they want. And my article points about the folly of this thinking, because this leads to the certain arrogance. So you, you're beyond, if you believe you're fighting for the right and you're fighting, for the sake of righteousness. If you believe you're fighting for the sake of God, you cannot make any mistakes. You cannot commit any sins. that is, and my article shows that,
00:16:08 - and then believe this can be applied to other parts of the world, this leads to really disastrous consequences. you think you're beyond reproach. you're, you're above criticism. And that has tragic, tragic, and horrible consequences because the Spanish priests believed if, if I burn a village, I kill some Indians. Hey, I'm doing it for God and he's gonna forgive me if it's because, for a greater cause. and that, that is a, that was a big mistake. a mistake is an understatement. That's a, it's a tragedy. And now, ironically enough to speak in religious terms,

"Divine Justification: The Risks of Believing in a God-sanctioned Violence"

00:17:24 - I don't think that the, abramic God, that both Islam, that that Christianity, Islam and Judaism worship would, would necessarily tolerate, or that God, this God would tolerate, or accept, understand, much less welcome these acts of violence committed, in this di divin Divine Figure's name. so that I think that, so two cases continue exploring, the interchange between Islam and the Spanish Christian world. And another level. My study can serve as a cautionary tale. But what happens if you are so convinced that you're fighting on behalf of God? That this leads to all sorts of, of tragic consequences.

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