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Gorz and Stiegler: Politics, ecology and the Neganthropocene

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Ross Abbinnett explores the relationship between André Gorz’s account of the possibility of a deproletarianised regime of labour and Bernard Stiegler’s theory of the Neganthropocene.

Image courtesy of interviewee. May 2, 2024

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This video video is a discussion centered on the themes of labor, technology, and humanity, particularly focusing on the intellectual contributions of Andre Gorz and Bernard Stiegler.

1. **Commemoration of Gorz**: The motivation for the discussion stems from the ten-year anniversary of Gorz's death, reflecting on his insights into labor and technology, and the evolving precariousness of middle-class jobs due to advancements in AI.

2. **Gorz's Perspectives**: Gorz, rooted in a Marxist tradition, originally viewed technology's impact on labor as complex, suggesting it could liberate time for creative endeavors rather than solely diminishing workers' conditions. He criticized the intensive consumer economy that forces people to work more for the sake of consumption.

3. **Stiegler's Philosophical Approach**: Stiegler adds to this discourse by exploring the relationship between humanity and technology, navigating through the concept of "pharmacon" — the dual nature of technology as both cure and poison. He warns against a blind technological optimism that fails to account for the unforeseen consequences of such advancements.

4. **Critique of Accelerationism**: This video video critiques the idea of “accelerationism,” which advocates for technological solutions to existential challenges like climate change. Instead, Stiegler proposes a need for a balanced, ethical approach to technology, emphasizing slower, more thoughtful integration that supports community values, responsibility, and human needs.

5. **Call for Reflexivity**: A recurring theme is the importance of reflexivity — critically assessing how technology shapes our lives and relationships, preventing a loss of humanity amid technological reliance. Both philosophers share an emphasis on preserving creativity and community within a system that often prioritizes capital and technology over humanist values.

6. **Conclusion**: The discussion concludes with a cautionary perspective on our reliance on technology, highlighting the potential costs of inadequately reflecting on its effects on our identities, social relationships, and creative capacities. The call is for a more humane and responsible engagement with technological advancement.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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The motivation, the primary motivation.

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'cause it, it was 10 years since, Andre Goz died,

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and we did a special edition of, a sociology journal

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to commemorate that.

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Um, but the intellectual, motivation for it, I guess was

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because, labor

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and labor studies study

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of work has become increasingly important in sociology now.

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Um, and that's been developed in, this idea of the, the,

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the precariat, the idea that, increasing numbers

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of the middle class are becoming threatened,

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in their employment, their status, their class, identity

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by the fact that their jobs are being increasingly taken

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over by, AI technologies, technologies, which,

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are threatening to rob them of their skills

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and their social position.

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So one of the motivations was to look into this,

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and of course, courts was one of the first people

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from a broadly Marxist tradition to, to, to try

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and look at how labor was being, affected

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by new technologies, particularly new, cybernetic

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and communi and,

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computer technologies in the

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late seventies and early eighties.

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Uh, and he came up with an idea which was, in a sense

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quite controversial to a lot Marxists,

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because he argued that actually

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what these technologies did wasn't simply to ruin the,

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the life chances of the working class.

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What it did was to open up a, a new possibility, which was,

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autonomously controlled labor.

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You know, the idea that it would freeing up more

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and more hours, that, were no longer necessary

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to produce the overall social product

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to satisfy social needs.

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Once machines could do that, there would be a surplus

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of time, that if it was organized properly,

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could encourage people to be more creative in their work.

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So the idea is that he had a, a kind of sense of culture

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and creativity as something that all human beings were,

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capable of expressing.

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Um, that under capitalism, the way work was organized was to

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artificially intensify, the necessity to work

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by a consumer economy that encourages us all to work as long

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as we can buy as much as we can.

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So the whole process of production

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and comp, construction

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and, consumption is artificially intensified.

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And he wanted to look outside that, that kind of,

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treadmill where everybody is trying to constantly earn more

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to, to consume more, to buy more,

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and to find, to find pleasure in objects

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and things, which for him, you know, from a a kind

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of spiritual point of view, you, that's something

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that you can never do.

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I mean, you are, you know, he was a Marxist in the sense

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that he thought that the seat of all human,

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true human satisfaction was creative work,

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people working together in communities

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that would give their work some sense

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of substantial meaning, some sense of substantial,

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as he called it, conviviality, an idea

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that we were working together towards collective goals

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that we all bought into.

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Yeah, Bernard Stelow was, a French philosopher.

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He was very, very much influenced by, Jacque,

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who was, you know, obviously associated with deconstruction.

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Uh, he has an interesting, biography.

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He, was briefly an armed robber

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and served time, for, for armed robbery.

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Uh, I, I thought that, you know, he is, he being,

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put in prison in the late seventies was

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because he had perform, he had performed this kind

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of armed robbery because he, it was in, it was

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as part of some kind of attempt to fund some kind

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of radical protest group, whatever.

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But he actually said he did it 'cause he liked it.

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It was something that he did derived a certain amount

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of pressure from him and found quite easy

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until they caught him.

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So, yeah, so he has got quite an interesting biography.

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Uh, he became a philosopher in prison.

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Um, that's where he, he had the time to kind

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of immerse himself as an autodidact into reading all this,

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you know, French philosophy, French literature, et cetera.

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And that's where he became, as he put it in a book

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that he called How I became a Philosopher.

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That's how he became a philosopher, having the time

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in prison to be able to do it.

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Um, his big idea is, is the relationship,

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is an interrogation of the relationship between,

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humanity and technology.

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Uh, and he interrogates it

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through this idea of the pharmacon.

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Um, and he takes this from Plato.

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Uh, it's this idea of, the Pharmacon a medicine

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as something which is both poison and cure.

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So there's an idea that technology has

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immense benefits for us.

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So he's not, he's not a kind of anti technological Luddite

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as indeed Gortz wasn't.

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But he does also try to suggest that in fact,

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there are certain, inevitable, costs

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to being integrated into this kind of,

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technological machinery that, that,

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late industrial society has become.

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Uh, and the, the, the costs that he talks about, is,

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is kind, are configured through this notion of spirit.

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And he has an idea of spirit that suggests

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that human beings, because of what we are,

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because of, we, we are this kind of strange amalgamation

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of intellect, intuition, passion, feeling,

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that are kind of radically, unpredictable

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and capable of all sorts of contingent acts,

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which are in some sense, sublime or wonderful.

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Because of that, there's always a, a danger

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that being integrated into these systems will mean

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that we lose these things.

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We lose this kind of spontaneity that we're capable of.

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And particularly in, again, this goes back to go's work,

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and particularly in kind of creative interaction

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with each other, you know, kind of, he insists

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that our relationships

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with other people are essentially artistic.

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You know, we invent, the provocations

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that others provide for us are a kind of a motivation

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for some kind of, creativity in our relations

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to those others who are always in a sense mysterious to us.

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And so this is an element, this is kind

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of spiritual element, is something that

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for him is infinitely worth as he puts it taken care of.

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But on the other hand, you, you know, what,

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what he wa he wants to suggest that why,

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that this is something we don't necessarily completely lose

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when we are integrated into these kind of,

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industrial systems.

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And indeed the soft technologies

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that have emerged in recent societies do offer us,

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the, the opportunity for new forms of creativity.

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You know, computer software, virtual systems, all that kind

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of stuff provides us with a new opportunity.

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It's just that these kinds of societies do have a tendency

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to, to capitalize everything.

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And, so he, his, his big concern over digital,

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technologies about cognitive capitalism

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is it gets flattened out.

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And it's all about capitalization.

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It's all about making sure that, for example, our,

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our desires are again, caught in that kind of consumerist,

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treadmill.

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And just to give a, you know, stupid example,

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and it's something that I, you know, always kind of try out,

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is that the algorithms that are involved in things like,

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Amazon, they, when you buy something,

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they always, there's always a whole kind of raft

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of other things that they think that you might want

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because you bought this thing.

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So our, our individual patterns of consumption,

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our desire is organized through these systems,

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and now they are so sensitive that they are able

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to tell if you are about to split up with your partner

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because of the way that the things that you start

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to consume at a particular time.

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And that, for him is an atrocity.

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The fact that these kind of spiritual relationships

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have become so, predictable, have become so,

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embedded in these kind of systems that, you know,

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we've almost lost our humanity

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through becoming embedded in this kind

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of repetitive technology.

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The ene is, is is something that, you know,

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obviously has this kind of fairly checkered past.

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Um, it, it's been presented as something which is a,

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a geological epoch in which human beings have, have kind,

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have come to occupy a place on, on earth

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where they are able increasingly to be able, able

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to control the geological, meteorological,

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atmospheric conditions in which we live.

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And there's this kind of idea, this kind of ridiculous idea

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of spaceship earth

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that is presented in things like the Epcot Center, you know,

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this idea that human beings have grown and developed,

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and now we're in this position of, of almost kind

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of domination over the, over the systems of the earth.

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And there's a, there's a certain kind

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of messianic element to that.

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You know, the idea is that something like,

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that we are fulfilling our destiny in the,

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in the Anthropocene age,

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and that the, the horizon of this is, is the ability

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that we will in the near future have to be able

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to overcome things like climate change,

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because the technological fixes that we will be capable of

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are such that we will be able to control the environment

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and stave off the worst, worst effects that threaten

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to make the planet uninhabitable force.

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And it's associated, it's become associated

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with this thing called accelerationism, which suggests that,

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if we want to survive, we have

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to invest massively in these kind of technological fixes,

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which will allow us, to overcome the, the very worst,

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case scenario of an uninhabitable plan.

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Alright? So, and that, as you say, is the kind of banal

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interpretation of what the, the Anthropocene is

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and the kind of gurus of it.

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People like Elon Musk who are, you know, who are always kind

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of pushing this agenda of we need

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to invest in these things in order to be able to,

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to ensure our survival in the future.

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So there's the, there's, that's, that's the kind of picture

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of it, this kind of technological fix

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that's the crudest idea of it.

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And in, in a sense, Stigler's idea

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of the neg Anthropocene is a strategy.

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It's, it's basically saying, okay, we need

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to actually have a, a kind of alternative to this.

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Whereby you have to understand that these kind

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of pure technological fixes always give rise to consequences

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that are unforeseen

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and consequences that end up being in Hume.

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You know, the, the idea is that we have to have,

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the solutions that we come up with have

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to be livable solutions.

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They have to be solutions in which,

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which human beings recover their idea of community,

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recover their idea of responsibility, recover their idea

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of sacrifice, which again, goes back

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to this notion of spirit.

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The the idea is that, you know, the Anthropocene,

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as it's been configured by the Accelerationist, suggests

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that the capitalist model is still a good one.

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And the radical individualism, is, is propounded by

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that kind of capitalist organization is compatible

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with solutions that allow us to,

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solve these problems that we're confronted with,

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like climate change through technologies.

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What Steigler is saying is actually that can't happen.

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We have to, we firstly, we don't know what the consequences

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of using these things will be.

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You know, they always have spinoff effects

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that we can't control

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and can't even think about at the moment.

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So what we need to have is a balance between

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how we use these technologies

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and a sense of ethical responsibility where we slow down,

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we slow down the kind of technological development,

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we slow down the rate of capitalization,

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we slow down the rate of compound interest,

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our ga our values and our goals begin to change.

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And it's that which brings us back to this idea about,

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about spirit, about the constitution of new communities,

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new values, new technologies, kind of trans valuation

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of all the kinds of, of, cultural ideals,

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consumption ideals, aesthetic ideals of, of late capitalism.

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And that's what he means by the neg anthrop, you know,

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this kind of reassertion of spirit in this kind

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of onward rush that suggests that actually the, the, the,

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the, the technological solution is just around the corner.

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I think his, his book, I mean, I, there's a,

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there's a little sort of anecdote in the article where,

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talk about how I was at university in the,

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in the early eighties,

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and there were, you know, people who were Marxists

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who were profoundly suspicious about this work

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because, you know, he's, he's given priority to the realm

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of culture and forms

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of work which aren't performed necessarily in the

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factory, in the workplace.

13:26.355 --> 13:28.415
You know, there's this kind of idea about a,

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a a much more kind of dispersed, localized cultures

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of, production and consumption,

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and not necessarily this kind

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of overarching proletarian revolution that,

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that Marx was talking about.

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So there was some kind of unease about it,

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but I th I, I think you a farewell to, to the working class,

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which is the book that he wrote in 1980,

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is a real turning point.

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Uh, and it's a turning point

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because the suggestion is that actually

14:02.435 --> 14:07.015
any society that does not collapse into the kind

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of Marxist dictatorships that existed in, well still exist

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to some degree in China,

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but also existed in, the Soviet Union has

14:16.095 --> 14:18.055
to have a principle of individuation,

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which is not completely subsumed under

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the interest of the state.

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And that's, that's his big, that's his big thing.

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The idea is that there has to be some recognition

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of the individual as somebody

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who has their own particular contribution to make,

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and which cannot be completely subsumed under any kind

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of political or economic program in the way that,

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Stalinism tried to do in the Soviet Union.

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And so there's, there, there's this idea that, you know,

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okay, there, there are these kind

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of material factors involved in production,

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but as soon as you get to a point where this kind of,

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computer and techno and cybernetic technologies allow,

15:02.865 --> 15:06.765
for the satisfaction of social need and the,

15:06.865 --> 15:09.405
and, the production of a surplus time

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where people can express those individual,

15:13.745 --> 15:15.175
those individual talents,

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but in a community whose, values

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and ideals are essentially collective and ecological,

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'cause obviously he makes this huge contribution to ecology

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where these communities are no longer wasteful,

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but are rather convivial, where there's kind of mutual help

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where people, try to refine their sensibility.

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So it's not all about more, more, more, more, more,

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what more can I have?

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What more can I purchase?

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But rather a kind of more, reflexive enjoyment.

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And that's, that's something that both Stiegler

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and Gortz share is this kind of refinement of sensibility.

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Then, you know, this is something which has

15:54.645 --> 15:55.965
to be a kind of positive.

15:56.545 --> 15:59.725
Um, this for me is something which is incredibly important.

16:00.995 --> 16:04.935
Um, and also there's an idea about, you know, tempering

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the kind of technological messianism

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that has become very much embedded in neoliberalism.

16:11.915 --> 16:13.535
You know, the idea that we can always,

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there's always a tech fix for something,

16:16.235 --> 16:18.935
and there's always a way of doing things that will allow us

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to, to kind of resolve all the difficulties we have

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without any notion of the, the kind of human ideals

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of sacrifice, about how we might live together,

16:28.955 --> 16:30.855
how we might reflect on things, how,

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what the purpose of our work is.

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And again, I think that's incredibly important

16:35.255 --> 16:37.655
because there is, you know, there is, there are crises

16:37.795 --> 16:40.415
of identity, there are existential crises of

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what's it all about, what's it all for?

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And I think the realization that's dawning on a lot

16:46.515 --> 16:48.635
of people now, especially in, you know, this kind of

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with the, with this kind of horizon of, of climate change,

16:53.475 --> 16:56.575
which has become so prevalent now,

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people are definitely thinking about that

16:59.075 --> 17:00.695
and how things might changed.

17:01.295 --> 17:05.575
I think the, where, where Stigler's account is,

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developed GOs go go's work.

17:09.765 --> 17:11.725
I mean, there's a, there's a moment.

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I mean, Gortz Gortz wrote a book very late on,

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I think it was 2008, called The Immaterial.

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And so there is a crossover, nobody really reads

17:22.355 --> 17:25.555
that book, but, there is a crossover.

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And the immaterial is, is all about how,

17:31.055 --> 17:34.435
it, it definitely expresses a profound anxiety about

17:34.585 --> 17:39.155
what these kind of accelerationist, techno,

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gurus are, are, are pushing with kind

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of AI systems and computer systems.

17:45.095 --> 17:46.875
And, you know, he engages with all them.

17:46.875 --> 17:50.755
There's a very famous one called, Ray Kurtz file,

17:51.335 --> 17:52.555
and he engages with him

17:52.655 --> 17:55.555
and Kurt Kurtz file's idea is that, there's,

17:55.555 --> 17:58.155
he wrote a book called The, the Singularity is near,

17:58.575 --> 18:03.035
and there's the point at which, AI systems will be able

18:03.035 --> 18:05.395
to start designing and making their own,

18:05.885 --> 18:08.555
their own instrumentalities their own machines.

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So the whole thing becomes, an intelligent system.

18:13.135 --> 18:15.955
And he, his argument is that it's actually quite close.

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This is this a lot closer than we think.

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And that, our status then will be to be looked

18:21.675 --> 18:24.555
after by these, these machines, you know,

18:24.655 --> 18:27.475
and that we might have be able to have the capacity to be,

18:27.575 --> 18:30.155
augmented physically and mentally in some ways,

18:30.295 --> 18:33.595
but really what our status then will be to be subservient

18:33.595 --> 18:36.515
to this kind of all knowing, singularity.

18:37.175 --> 18:40.435
And he is, you know, he's, he's kind of morally

18:40.435 --> 18:43.875
and ethically outraged by this, that this, this,

18:43.905 --> 18:45.995
this stupidity of this position.

18:45.995 --> 18:48.795
And one of the things that Stiegler talks about is the

18:48.795 --> 18:50.075
politics of stupidity.

18:50.135 --> 18:51.595
And it's one of the sources

18:51.655 --> 18:54.395
of this is this extreme technological optimism.

18:55.345 --> 18:57.765
And so, you know, that's, that's where, that's

18:57.765 --> 18:58.805
where Gortz gets to.

18:59.505 --> 19:04.395
Um, but Stiegler, what Stiegler does, I think, and,

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and perhaps this is because it's purely

19:06.655 --> 19:08.075
and simply a generational thing,

19:08.075 --> 19:09.715
because he's a generation younger

19:10.455 --> 19:12.555
and he has this kind of appreciation of

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where things are going technologically.

19:14.855 --> 19:18.355
He does see these systems as a pharmacon, the idea

19:18.355 --> 19:19.635
of poison and cure.

19:20.335 --> 19:23.075
And so there's an idea with him that it is possible

19:23.075 --> 19:25.795
that we can develop a kind of,

19:26.105 --> 19:28.835
more considered reflexive relation to technology.

19:29.615 --> 19:33.115
And, you know, the idea about virtual systems

19:33.375 --> 19:36.855
and this new aesthetics of,

19:36.855 --> 19:38.855
transhuman aesthetics, fine.

19:39.135 --> 19:41.535
I mean, he's saying, okay, okay, fine, we,

19:41.845 --> 19:43.655
this is a new realm of experience,

19:43.715 --> 19:44.935
but we have to be careful

19:45.685 --> 19:48.135
that we don't become these utterly displaced,

19:48.565 --> 19:52.055
disembodied virtualized, individuals

19:52.075 --> 19:55.685
who have lost this sense of the kind of,

19:55.955 --> 19:57.405
what kinds of beings we are.

19:58.105 --> 20:03.065
You know, this sensorium this, this capacity for the kind

20:03.065 --> 20:07.545
of, reflexive mediation of our own feelings,

20:07.545 --> 20:09.705
our sensibilities, things like love.

20:09.925 --> 20:13.625
You know, the idea of the, the encounter, the unexpectedness

20:14.205 --> 20:16.905
of the love encounter that occurs between individuals.

20:17.295 --> 20:18.505
Well, you know, you can,

20:18.605 --> 20:20.665
you can certainly envisage a time in which,

20:21.365 --> 20:23.865
in which there's a complete eraser of that.

20:24.405 --> 20:26.345
And you think about things like dating sites,

20:26.845 --> 20:29.785
you think about things like having people flashing up images

20:29.845 --> 20:31.065
of themselves on phone.

20:31.605 --> 20:33.945
And that's, again, that's something which is possibly a

20:34.185 --> 20:36.745
complete eraser of those kind of relationships.

20:37.605 --> 20:40.225
So I think that's, again, I think that's probably the,

20:40.325 --> 20:43.625
that's, that's the kind of, that's what Steve direct adds

20:43.625 --> 20:45.425
to this kind of board scene analysis.

20:46.745 --> 20:48.045
Brilliant. So far. Finish.

20:48.045 --> 20:50.045
Now last question's, a takeaway message.

20:50.105 --> 20:51.765
Can you wrap up with your conclusions?

20:53.155 --> 20:57.805
Okay. Um, I, I remember there was a, I went

20:57.805 --> 20:59.285
to a conference about Stiegler once,

20:59.385 --> 21:01.725
and there was a grad student there who I vaguely knew

21:01.785 --> 21:05.685
who said, well, all, all Sigler is,

21:05.745 --> 21:08.445
is an avuncular warning to slow down.

21:09.705 --> 21:11.835
Um, I think,

21:12.175 --> 21:15.235
and this is, this is the thing that I was come out of

21:15.325 --> 21:17.595
after having read him for 10 years

21:17.615 --> 21:20.115
and written a book about him, and God knows what else.

21:20.975 --> 21:25.425
The, the, basically there are things

21:25.615 --> 21:27.705
that technology will be able to do

21:27.705 --> 21:29.185
that we can't even imagine.

21:30.085 --> 21:34.025
And there will come a point fairly soon where it will be,

21:34.025 --> 21:36.025
and we may even have reached it, I don't know.

21:36.785 --> 21:39.605
But there will come a point where it will be impossible

21:40.185 --> 21:44.805
to stop it because our whole sensibility would've been

21:44.805 --> 21:48.045
shaped by it, and we would've become so dependent upon it

21:48.045 --> 21:49.845
that we won't even know the extent

21:49.845 --> 21:51.325
to which we are dependent upon.

21:52.485 --> 21:57.025
And I, I, I think that to just see that his, just

21:57.025 --> 22:01.905
to see his position as a kind of conservatism that is just,

22:02.125 --> 22:06.385
you know, in the past, something that we can dismiss him

22:06.645 --> 22:08.985
as part of a generation that didn't have the kind

22:08.985 --> 22:11.225
of technological, facility

22:11.255 --> 22:13.105
that new generations have is wrong.

22:13.815 --> 22:17.475
Uh, it's not a wild kind of reactionary reaction.

22:17.475 --> 22:18.675
It's a considered reaction.

22:19.375 --> 22:21.115
And I think that's, if there's anything

22:21.115 --> 22:23.555
that we can take from him, that's what it should be

22:24.055 --> 22:26.515
to think about, you know, the loss of humanity

22:27.255 --> 22:30.395
and the price that you pay for not thinking about

22:30.615 --> 22:32.955
how these kind of technologies affect us

22:33.295 --> 22:35.675
and the fact that we cannot entirely predict that

22:35.675 --> 22:38.955
what they will do, in the, in the short

22:38.955 --> 22:40.115
to medium term future.

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