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The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights

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Phillip M. Ayoub and Kristina Stoeckl discuss the global movement to curtail LGBTI rights—and how the LGBTI movement responds to it.

Image courtesy of interviewee. February 28, 2024

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This video video discusses the intersection of LGBT rights activism and the opposition to these rights, focusing on transnational movements and the role of various actors, including political, religious, and cultural groups. The speakers reflect on their research that highlights the fluidity of gender and sexuality concepts, which are often manipulated by opposing groups to create fear and rally support against LGBT rights. They emphasize the rise of conservative and traditional values that aim to promote what they define as the "natural family," a concept reflecting a heterosexual couple with biological children. This video video traditionalist perspective is often framed against human rights, suggesting that individual rights should be tied to cultural and historical norms. The research included fieldwork, interviews, and participation in relevant events across various countries, enabling an examination of both conservative and progressive movements regarding LGBT rights. The authors are political sociologists interested in the dynamics of social movements and the impact of moral conservatism. They argue that the opposition to LGBT rights is increasingly being mobilized within transnational platforms, discussing legislation, public policy, and the strategic framing used to undermine rights, such as anti-LGBT propaganda laws. The importance of local civil societies and their unique responses to these challenges is highlighted, suggesting that effective activism must be context-sensitive and take local dynamics into account. This video video concludes by underscoring the precariousness of LGBT rights and the need for solidarity among various social justice movements, including women's rights and racial justice. It also suggests that globalization has provided both opportunities and challenges for movements, as conservative groups have similarly leveraged transnational resources to advance their agendas. The authors stress the need for nuanced understandings of these dynamics to effectively support and advocate for vulnerable communities.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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Christina I met in 2014.

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Um, we were both working on separate projects,

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and I was wrapping up a project on

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how LGBT movements had used transnational tools,

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to advocate, you know, around their riots.

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And had led to the, diffusion

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around many issues in many states, like marriage equality,

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quite successfully.

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And as Christina and I were talking about our respective

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projects, we were noticing how interestingly, the opposition

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to LGBT rights, which of course has existed always,

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was increasingly being used,

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also in these same transnational forum.

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So we saw a lot of, you know,

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transnational tools in terms of international

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NGOs working across borders, certain states

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that were advocating for traditional values, politics,

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working with these types of actors,

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and of course, certain international organizations like the

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Catholic Church or the, or Orthodox Church

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that were working, also to actively, you know,

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promote what they saw as traditional values, what they saw

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as their opposition to so-called, gender ideology,

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and that really targeted and centered LGBT people.

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Uh, part of the, you know, the reason that we,

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that Christina Char in the book why, this target was

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so effectual is that gender and sexuality,

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because of their fluidity, you know,

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they're quite fluid concepts, can be quite easily,

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twisted by, by opposing groups, to present them

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as a threat, you know, to create, to stoke some fears

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and present them as a threat to, tradition to kind

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of imagine past of the way things work.

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And so, especially when, you know, if you think

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of nationalism or,

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or strong attachment to religious values, gender

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and sexual, movements around gender and sexuality

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and gender identity can feel destabilizing.

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And this has been, you know, has for many, you know,

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autocratic leaders or liberal leaders,

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has been an effective

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and quite easy way to galvanize, a constituency,

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in opposition.

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Philipp and I are both political sociologists

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and, we've worked on social groups, social movements,

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and, we also, work mostly qualitatively

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and ethnographically.

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So the, the bulk of the research, for this project was,

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field work involving interviews with,

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political and religious actors and social movement actors,

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and also participation in events

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and observation of, of meetings.

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Now, I think what is special about the book is

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that we actually did research on,

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politicized moral conservative groups.

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So religious actors, conservative actors,

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people we, we locate on the political right.

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Um, but we also did research on progressive groups and,

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and NGOs in, in the L-G-B-T-T rights spectrum.

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Now, I am a sociologist of religion,

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and I came to this topic really from the study

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of religious actors.

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And, so for me, it was interesting to, to see that,

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especially in the context of Orthodox Christianity

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and of Russian Orthodoxy, the topic,

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to oppose LGBT rights,

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was in a way growing as, as I was observing the field.

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And, and so this is also what, what,

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what drew me to the topic.

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And, what made me ask, why, why is this happening?

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And now you see, when we started this research

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that was back in 2016, it was long

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before covid, people were still traveling

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and people were still meeting.

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And so we actually had a chance to attend several meetings

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of, organizations that, mobilize for,

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against LGBT rights and for moral conservative failures.

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For example, the World Congress of Families,

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is one example.

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And we, we just went to their conference and,

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and we were present there.

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We listened to the speeches.

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Um, we sort of took in the atmosphere,

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and we also made contacts with some of the,

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NGO leaders there present, to then interview them.

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Um, I think it's also noteworthy to say

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that we did these interviews in many different languages.

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Um, so apart from English, also in German,

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which is my native language,

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but also in Russian, which is another language I speak,

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but also in Italian.

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Um, and we, we traveled in order to, to,

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do this field work.

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We did a lot of the field work, in Russia,

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but also in, in Moldova, in, in Hungary where one of these,

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meetings took place, in the us

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in order to really take in the whole breadth of, of

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that network that we were out there to explore,

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a network of actors, mobilizing across borders,

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across linguistic borders also.

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And what was also very interesting across confessionals

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or religious borders, against LGBT rights, one

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of the mainframes that is used, by these actors is that

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of the natural family.

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So the idea that there is, a natural family defined

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as a heterosexual, couple,

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usually religiously married with their biological offspring.

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Um, and, and this is, this is the idea of of

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of the natural family, which, you know, maybe is indeed,

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a reality for many people.

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It's also an ideal, but it's also one that we see,

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is very often not, not the fact, you know, we have,

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a high rate of divorce.

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We, and of course we also have other forms of family.

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We have single parents, we have same sex parents.

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So a big, a big struggle, of these groups is precisely

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between nat, the natural family and, and,

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and enlarging the whole idea of, of what is a family

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and what can be legitimately be called a family.

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So very often, the, the framings are really

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around that one term.

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Another frame that is very commonly used,

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and I mean, you used it now in your, in your question,

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but it really needs a little bit of unpacking is that

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of traditional values,

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because the frame traditional values is very often used,

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in confrontation with, human rights.

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So individual human rights, the idea

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that individuals q they being,

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human beings have equal rights,

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acro universally and across cultures and countries,

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and across time really is something that many

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of these actors actually reject.

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They say that the idea of rights

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and the entitlements of a thing

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of an individual should be tied to tradition.

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So to the traditional morals of, of a society to culture,

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also to history, because many

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of these traditions are actually, you know,

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grown up in hi grow in history.

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And I mean, we know that especially for when it comes

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to women, when it comes to, to, you know,

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homosexual people, this is, they have,

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they are really the ones that have been targeted by many

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of these traditional mors, let alone children now.

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So the, the problem in a way is that the,

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the whole traditional values frame, it sounds appealing,

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it can sound appealing because it has this idea of wholeness

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and, and, and, and connection and community.

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Um, but it is really mobilized,

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in a very targeted way against individual human rights

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and an idea of universal dignity and, and human worth.

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So let me just build off of that to, to,

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give a few examples of, you know, the outputs of some

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of this, these, some of these,

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narrative constructions around the natural family

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or around, traditional values

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that we look at, in the book.

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So a lot of this movement has also looked to,

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to push legislative changes

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or to support court cases, including in,

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international courts, to implement some of these ideas

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that Christina outlined.

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Uh, so we see a lot of, you know, we see a lot of,

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uptake around certain kind of religious liberty bills,

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which we see in different countries when it comes to,

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you know, the take shop, case

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or the website cases

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around whether people can discriminate against,

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LGBT group based on the right of religion.

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You also see, you know, a strong focus on opposition

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to marriage equality in many contexts.

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Um, you see, also the weaponization of certain rights,

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like, for example, creating this,

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which I think is a false dichotomy,

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but, creating a, a wedge between, cis women's rights

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and those of trans women,

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which is also levied a lot by these groups.

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Uh, and of course, you see also, legislation

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that's diffusing, under these, ideas

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to protect traditional values like so-called Anti-gay

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propaganda bills, which we see in many different countries

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now, and also quite intensified, which are bills

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that try to exclude expression,

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queer expression in the public fa space in order to protect,

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you know, quote unquote protect,

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other groups like children or, or,

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or natural, families.

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So-called natural families from, a kind

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of deviant expression in the space that, of course,

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these laws, of course, effectively silence queer groups

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entirely if they can't be part, of an inclusive,

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plural society in the public space.

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There are many other, other examples.

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There are bills, also to label LGBT groups

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as foreign agents or extremists to try to, to silence them.

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But these are, these are kind of outputs of the framing

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that, Christina,

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or the ideology that Christina presented

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that really have these kind of tangible effects on state

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politics that we look at in, in the book.

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There's a really, you know,

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heated debate in human rights activism

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and how we can protect LGBT rights given

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that they've become, come under such attack.

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Of course, this also, we see these kind

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of attacks also happening to women's rights,

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especially women's reproductive rights in many

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different, different places.

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And part of that debate falls along two extremes,

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which is the concern that kind of visibly advocating

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for these rights might introduce, attention

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to these groups that make them more visible,

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and then can also, increase violence towards them.

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And then another extreme, which would be

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to do nothing at all because, a lot of times when,

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when, either when democratic states

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or when human rights organizations, work across borders,

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it can be, can fall into the trap of painting LGBT people

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as foreign imposition,

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or using these kind of neo-colonial arguments,

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which I is a false association,

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but one that is levied a lot against efforts to do anything.

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I think where we're at now, at least, on the basis

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of our research with LGBT rights organizations

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that also advise ministries of foreign affairs and,

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and think about how to promote LGBT rights in this very,

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very difficult context, has been one

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that really is looking at innovative ways

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and sometimes also being less visible.

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So it's certainly not do nothing approach,

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but it also might not be the former approach

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of waving a rainbow flag in every context at every embassy.

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You know, there might be other more subtle

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ways of doing this work.

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And so a lot of it has really been, I think a lot

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of the consensus is that you really have

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to have local civil society who, that work on gender,

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on sexuality, on gender identity, on those kind of rights,

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however you call them, in any context

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that they should be steering the ship in how this is done.

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That might mean supporting them also more, more backdoor or,

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or states also supporting, maybe sympathetic members of,

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of another state from more behind the scenes than kind

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of these vocal shaming tactics that were used.

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So to, to, in a sense, to keep also states that are,

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you know, to, to not shame states out

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of the global societies that might be moving on LGBT rights,

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but figuring out a way to support LGBT groups locally.

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If you can do that, successfully, what we learned is

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that there's really interesting ways

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with which local civil society might respond to LGBT rights

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that we wouldn't think of in the United Kingdom or in,

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or, you know, or in the US or,

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or in in Germany, where,

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these groups have had a very

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different trajectory of activism.

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For example, we've learned that, you know,

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many LGBT groups are thinking of new ways

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to frame their rights, given these kind of attacks.

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So there's a lot more focus also on the family in

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LGBT dialogue.

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So we talk about rainbow families

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or more inclusive families.

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There's more focus on children's rights, of course.

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Uh, children are of, of queer couples are very much impacted

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by their right situation.

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Of course, children themselves who might be LGBT,

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are very impacted when it comes to homelessness,

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suicide, all kinds of issues.

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So there are ways to really,

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also meet these charges from the opposition

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to emphasize the work that LGBT groups do for children,

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for family, and for women.

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You know, those groups that are very central

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to LGBT rights, protections.

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There's also other interesting ways in some countries

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that these groups have done work.

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For example, we've seen the use of religious framing,

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like love thy neighbor being, you know, a,

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a pride parade slogan in, in some countries, like in Poland,

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we've seen, attempts to work

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with religious communities

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and ways to emphasize that there are of course LGBT people

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who are religiou or are religious

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and have, our faith communities

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that this false dichotomy is also put between them,

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that they're not, part of the same groups.

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I think emphasizing those ties, has been,

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has been a turn that we've seen from the more kind

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of universal human rights framing

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that we might have seen in LGBT activism in the nineties

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and early two thousands to potentially,

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and maybe paradoxically a more rooted, national

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language in order to emphasize

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that these communities are indigenous, they're part

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of the national makeup of these states.

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And I think that's what we're seeing as a, as kind

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of a tactical response.

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Um, on the LGBT movement side,

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What I hope the readers will take from the book

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is an understanding that many of, the moral conflicts

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and the so-called culture wars

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or value wars that polarize, our societies

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are nothing really, are not natural.

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They're not, they're not, how can I say that?

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Maybe I, in that sense, inevitable, they are,

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to a certain extent also made.

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So what we, what we learned by working on this book is how,

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a political agenda is being pushed

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by certain groups very effectively, into contexts,

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where then issues are framed

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and polarizations are created.

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And, to a certain extent, this framing of the issues in,

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in a transnational key

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and language prevents local solutions of the kind

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that Philip just talked about.

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It prevents, a local in a rooted debate about

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what society do we want to be, you know,

15:35.515 --> 15:37.205
what does inclusion mean for us?

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What does tolerance mean for us here and now?

15:41.105 --> 15:45.005
Um, all this, this, this debate is stopped when from the

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outside, people are told you have

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to defend yourself against the global LGBT lobby.

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Um, I mean, think about the example of Russia,

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which now passed a law against the international LGBT

15:57.405 --> 15:59.045
movement as if such a movement existed.

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It doesn't exist. So they passed a law against something,

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that really exists more in their imagination.

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So what I really hope that people

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and readers will take away from that is to say, to,

16:11.465 --> 16:14.845
to trust more experiences here and now and interactions

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and not fall for these imaginations and ideologies. Another

16:19.125 --> 16:22.565
Takeaway for us is that it really shows how also

16:23.095 --> 16:25.965
these rights revolutions that we've seen around gender

16:26.025 --> 16:28.565
and sexuality are not inevitable in the sense

16:28.565 --> 16:29.805
that they're not already one.

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It's a continued struggle.

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And in fact, a lot of the successes we've seen

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around the movements are being challenged very actively.

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You know, at this time, just in the United States,

16:39.385 --> 16:43.125
for example, there are over 400 active anti-trans bills

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being proposed, some of them already having passed.

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So it really shows how, you know, vulnerable and fragile.

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Some of the rights that we have won in recent decades are

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also as we move forward.

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And I think this calls upon us

16:55.685 --> 16:57.725
to really think in solidarity about

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how we support each other, also within LGBT movements, how,

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how we can make sure to center women's rights,

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to center trans people's rights, how all

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of these rights are very interconnected

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and still very vulnerable, moving forward.

17:11.505 --> 17:14.445
And I think, you know, thinking about who's left out

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of these successes moving forward is really, a central,

17:18.105 --> 17:21.485
takeaway from the book, given how much,

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how much opposition there is.

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And then finally, one other small point to make is

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that we really have to think that globalization

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and these, you know, transnational human rights,

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movements that we studied with so much excitement that many

17:33.765 --> 17:36.365
of the tools that we attributed to quote unquote good

17:36.645 --> 17:39.005
movements, are also available to movements

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that use them in very different ways

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and that we might not consider as good.

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And I think it is a huge blind spot if we consider, continue

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to think that these groups,

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even though they might call themselves nationalists

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or focus on the domestic safe space,

17:51.335 --> 17:53.375
aren't also using some of the channels

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that transnational politics offers.

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I think that's something we need to be very aware of,

17:58.495 --> 17:59.055
moving forward.

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