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Karen Evans discusses two inner-city wards of Salford in understanding of the management of crime in high crime communities.

Image courtesy of interviewee. May 29, 2024

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This video discusses research conducted in the mid-1990s in the UK regarding the impact of rising crime rates on communities, focusing specifically on the feelings of safety and wellbeing among residents in high-crime areas. The author describes the context of increasing crime rates since the early 1980s and highlights efforts to understand how these rates influenced people's lives, leading to research funded separately following initial findings. Key themes in the research include: 1. **Impact on Wellbeing**: The research aimed to explore how crime affected individuals' perceptions of safety and security, particularly in neighborhoods experiencing significant increases in crime. 2. **Policy Context**: This video discusses the government's shift in focus from addressing crime rates to addressing the fear of crime, especially during the neoliberal policies of the 1990s that promoted community self-reliance and local solutions. 3. **Personal Motivation**: The author shares personal experiences of living in a high-crime neighborhood and the motivations that arose from witnessing the struggles of neighbors who could not easily relocate. 4. **Research Methodology**: The research involved interviews with local authorities, law enforcement, community surveys, and focus groups to obtain insights from diverse community members, including men, women, and school children. 5. **Community Dynamics**: The study finds differing local dynamics in two communities, highlighting that similar demographics can lead to very different experiences of crime and community cohesion. One community showed resilience and local solutions, while the other felt abandoned by authorities. 6. **Challenges and Changes Over Time**: This video concludes with reflections on how conditions have worsened since the austerity measures post-2010, noting increases in poverty, lack of resources, and erosion of trust in authorities. It emphasizes the need for tailored support mechanisms that address specific local dynamics rather than a one-size-fits-all solution. The overarching message advocates for understanding and supporting communities rather than viewing them as problematic, stressing the importance of building local resilience while addressing the needs for external support and intervention.

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X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

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There was a number of things.

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Some were personal and some were more policy related.

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So we did the research for the book in the nine, mid 1990s,

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and it was at a time when there'd been quite an uptick in

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the rates of recorded crime in the uk.

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Um, they'd been climbing

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very well exponentially actually, since the early 1980s.

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And we'd been doing some work at the University

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of Sulford on how people felt in the

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cities that they lived in.

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And people kept saying to us, you have to talk about crime.

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You have to talk about the impact of crime on our lives,

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otherwise you won't understand how we feel.

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So this was a secondary, piece

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of research which we got separate funding for

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after that particular initial research where we decided

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to focus particularly on how the

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increases in the rates of recorded crime, how

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that impacted on people, like more personally.

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Um, how does it feel,

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especially we were interested in living in an area

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where the crime rates have exploded

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to the extent that they had.

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And what does that do to people's sense of wellbeing

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and sense of safety and sense of security.

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And at the time as well, there were a number

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of policy issues, which were prominent,

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in the fact that the governments were starting to

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focus on fear of crime

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because they couldn't get the crime rates under control.

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So they were looking at things like fear of crime instead.

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Um, so,

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and they were looking at how they, measure the problem

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of fear of crime, but also how they would,

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how they would respond to problems

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around fear of crime as well.

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Um, we were, we had a particular neoliberal government

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in the 1990s, which had, which was sort

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of basing its policy around the withdrawal of the state

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from communities,

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and they were trying to responsibly local neighborhoods to

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try to find solutions themselves to those problems.

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But we also knew that that kind of neoliberal government,

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which started under Margaret Thatcher

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and then carried on under John Major in the mid 1990s,

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we knew it was going.

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And we knew also that there was likely

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to be a labor government emerging.

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And they were looking at things very differently,

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and they were looking at, the idea of community safety.

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So not just to concentrate on the, the numbers

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of crimes which were taking place,

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and the increase in fear that was part of that,

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but what kind of resilience do communities have to ensure

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that they, build a sense of safety?

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And the, we, we had a, a feeling

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that the new inc there would be an incoming labor

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government, and that we would be working under very

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different, different circumstances.

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So we were kind of looking to see how people felt,

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but also how we could work with communities to,

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foster that kind of sense of security.

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Also, the, the other policy, sort of side of it was

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that we were importing the idea of zero tolerance

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policing from the United States.

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And zero tolerance policing was based on this idea

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that no civil

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or criminal in infraction infringement on people's lives

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would be acceptable.

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So they were encouraging Elise to be quite heavy handed

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in stopping any kind of civil

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or criminal infringements in particular neighborhoods,

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and especially in neighborhoods that were seen

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as neighborhoods with high crime rates.

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And we could see as well that

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that was impacting on people's lives,

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and that it wasn't having,

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a desired effect in many communities.

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So this was the kind of the background to it.

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And then there's the personal motivation in

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that I was living in one

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of those high crime neighborhoods at the time.

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Um, and I, for example, I, I wasn't,

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I was burgled nine times in six months,

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and it has huge impact on the way you feel about, you know,

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your safety and security and, and the future

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and how you're going to cope.

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And I knew I was in a good job.

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I could get out, I could move to another neighborhood,

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but my neighbors who were experiencing similar rates

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of victimization weren't in the same kind of,

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of situation as I was.

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So, so I was personally motivated to see

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how I could help people who were left

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behind in those kinds of neighborhoods.

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Um, so that was the kind of, as I said,

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the policy motivation

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and the personal motivation as well for,

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for doing this particular piece of work.

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We used exactly the same methods in both neighborhoods.

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So we, carried out interviews

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with key local authority personnel who were, had some kind

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of responsibility for those neighborhoods.

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We also interviewed key law enforcement people, so

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that meant, police on the ground as well as the people

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who were involved in kind of strategy

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and, managing the areas at a higher level.

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We also went into a deep dive into the kind of history

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of those communities that we'd chosen,

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and especially the history of,

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of community development in those areas.

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Um, and then the more kind of,

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practical sort of day-to-Day.

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We, we, we did a local

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community survey in both areas where we went house to house

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and knocked on people's doors and asked them to speak to us.

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We, from the people who did speak to us, we got names

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and addresses, and we put together focus groups

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of particular, key residence groups,

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that we thought could tell us something.

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So for example, we had a focus group of just men

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who lived in those areas,

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and we had a focus group of just women

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who lived in the areas, and we had a mixed focus group.

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And, but we also went into schools

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and we talked to, young people in schools about how

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they felt about their communities

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and the crime that was happening in their communities

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and the victimization that they were, that they knew about

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and were experiencing themselves.

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And then we went back to each neighborhood at the end

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to report on our findings and get comments.

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And, finally we kind of published a community report

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for each of those areas to say, this is

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what we think is going on.

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Um, and, you know, so that they would have some kind

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of feedback and something to work with in the future,

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which hopefully would help them to try to, to build kind

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of relationships of trust with the local authorities

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and between themselves as well.

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We picked wards in the, in the city of Sulford,

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and these were wards which had similar crime rates,

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similar sizes, similar economic profiles

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and similar demographic profiles.

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They were both struggling areas with,

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they both had pockets in them of, of,

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of some of more wealth,

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but they were mainly kind

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of socioeconomically deprived areas.

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Um, and, they, they were areas which we

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identified as having experienced high rates of crimes,

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like car crime, burglary,

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and robberies as well.

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So there were those particular types of crimes.

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They were de-industrialized areas of the city of Sulford.

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The city of Soor, is an old industrial city,

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which had lost much of its industry

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and much of its employment as well in the late 1970s

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and throughout the 1980s.

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And were really, they were struggling, to, to find

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places for people to, to develop really,

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and to develop employment, to develop careers.

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Um, they were quite poor areas

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in the main Well, it's interesting

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Because if you look at the national profiles, then yes,

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there was the increase increases in recorded crime rates,

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measured by, the British Crime Survey

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as it was known at the time, was showing, as I said, a kind

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of real uptick in rates of recorded crime,

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and that was nationally.

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But if you looked beyond the national statistics

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and looked into some of the sort of more,

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more drilled down locally, you actually found

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that some cities were doing better than others

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in those profiles.

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So the previous research that I, referred to,

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we'd done research in Manchester and,

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and Sheffield, again, northern towns,

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de-industrialized areas, but Manchester

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and the greater Manchester area was suffering hugely from,

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increases in, in crime rates,

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whereas Sheffield was doing okay.

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Um, so we were kind of trying to work out

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what it was about local cultures that meant

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that some areas were exploding into these high crime rates

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and others were managing to keep, to keep some kind of,

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lid on the, on the crime problem.

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Um, so there, how does it compare to the rest of Britain?

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I think I would say that, you have to go well

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beyond the national picture

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and look at what's happening in particular neighborhoods,

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particular cities, particular communities, even to find out,

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that some are, are,

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are really struggling far more than others to find ways

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through the, the problems which were nationally experienced.

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And there's sort of local cultures, if you like,

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develop in particular areas.

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And these are historically developed.

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And, and, and it's about the way that people cope

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with the situations that they're in when they're losing jobs

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and they're losing kind of hope for the future.

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And, and in it's, it appears that in some areas that the,

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the local cultures are able to cope

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with that to a certain extent.

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And in others, there's

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less re resilience, less ability.

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And we were trying to look at,

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at why that might be the case.

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That's, that is the $6 million question, isn't it?

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Sheffield, we saw, when we were comparing Manchester

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and Sheffield, Manchester is an area which is, which was

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surrounded by industrialization and

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therefore surrounded by de-industrialization.

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So all the northern towns, the mill towns, the cotton towns,

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all those towns, they'd all lost everything all at once.

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Sheffield was slightly different in that it's,

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it's more isolated.

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There's, it's, you know, it's hilly, it's green

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around the city center.

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There are other places that people can, look to

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that say that it things can be better

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because just down the road, it's not as bad as it is here.

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So it, a lot to me is, is is hope.

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You know, I've met lots

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of people in like the Manchester Salford area who've never

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seen anything else in their whole lives, apart from

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de-industrialization and, and, and the despair.

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Whereas in Sheffield, you could get on a bus.

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In fact, if you remember, David Plunkett was the leader

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of Sheffield City Council,

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and he was giving people 10 p bus rides.

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People could get on buses, they could go to other places.

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They could see that the, the kind of communities,

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neighborhoods they were living isn't the end,

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isn't the be all and end all that there was,

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there were other possibilities out there.

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We didn't have the same kind of thing in Manchester.

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You'd had to pay, you'd had a lot of money

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to get outta Manchester to find

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that there were other places which were thriving.

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So I think it's those kinds of, it's very complicated.

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Um, and I don't think it's about what's

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inside the people themselves.

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I don't think that's, it's not that, that kind of culture,

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but it is about a kind of wider

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social context in which people are living out their lives.

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And some areas, like London for example,

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it's got a completely different social context.

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And again, people can hop on a tube

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and get to places which are very different

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and get to opportunities, get all sorts of,

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possibilities in their life, which is difficult to get

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to if you're living under difficult circumstances in the

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middle of a de-industrialized area, which doesn't appear

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to be where the authorities don't appear

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to have grasped the problem

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and be able to, to work with people to get them to,

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expand their horizons in any way.

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I think it's, it's profoundly depressing

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or profoundly depressing

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because you don't have,

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and this is some, one of the things

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that we found in the research,

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people in many places felt there is no body who can help me.

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I mean, imagine you get burgled for the fourth time

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and the police come and they can do nothing about it,

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and they may care about situation,

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but there's nothing they can do.

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And I was remember, one police officer saying to me,

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well, if you must live in a terrace house with a backstreet,

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these things are going to happen to you.

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So, and I don't think he was doing that through any kind

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of malice or I think the police themselves, I think,

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well, what can we do?

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And so they don't know what to do,

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the residents don't know what to do.

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Um, the authorities, if they're trying

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to do something about it,

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also perplexed about the situation.

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So I think that, that the depressive

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and dampening effect that

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that has on people on their day-to-day lives is, is immense.

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And they may not always recognize it.

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Um, certain groups of people are more open

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to recognizing it than others.

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So when we did the focus group with women, women are used

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to talking about being victimized

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and what that does to them on a day-to-day basis.

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So they were, were quite open to talk about it.

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Whereas when we did focus groups with men, we found

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that they were struggling to find the vocabulary

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that wouldn't make them look as though they were less

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of a man, for example.

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So there was masculinity coming in there,

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and they're talking about, you know, how,

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of course everything's okay for us,

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but you knew that under the surface it wasn't,

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and they were just as concerned, maybe not so much

15:38.245 --> 15:41.015
for their own personal safety,

15:41.115 --> 15:43.335
but they were concerned for the personal safety

15:43.995 --> 15:45.695
of their children, especially,

15:45.715 --> 15:47.575
and how were their children gonna grow up

15:47.575 --> 15:49.015
and what was gonna happen to their children.

15:49.955 --> 15:53.375
So I think when you're living with that for day to day

15:53.475 --> 15:55.375
for years actually,

15:55.675 --> 16:00.535
and you can't see a way out, then it does something

16:01.075 --> 16:05.215
to your ability to think about how you could get out of it

16:06.285 --> 16:08.305
and you think that's your life, you know?

16:08.305 --> 16:12.855
Mm-Hmm. I think things got worse, actually, unfortunately.

16:13.355 --> 16:17.855
Um, so a few things that I would say about,

16:18.305 --> 16:21.175
about what's happened in the preceding few years,

16:22.335 --> 16:26.305
there's been, I think poverty has entrenched itself more

16:27.415 --> 16:31.145
this, the feelings that people of lack

16:31.145 --> 16:35.025
of opportunity in their lives have entrenched itself

16:36.085 --> 16:39.495
more, especially since 2010.

16:39.515 --> 16:42.655
And for the austerity measures which have called support.

16:43.555 --> 16:48.215
Um, when the labor government came in in the 1990s, 1997,

16:48.995 --> 16:52.775
it tried to, ensure

16:52.845 --> 16:54.295
that local authorities

16:54.715 --> 16:57.335
and communities work together on community

16:57.335 --> 16:58.375
safety strategies.

16:59.275 --> 17:02.575
Um, and it started,

17:03.205 --> 17:05.375
with really good intentions, I think.

17:06.395 --> 17:09.905
But again, the, the new labor government,

17:10.075 --> 17:13.905
after the first term of office started

17:14.165 --> 17:17.865
to take on some of these kind of neoliberal ideas about

17:18.655 --> 17:20.585
respons symbolizing communities.

17:21.085 --> 17:23.025
You know, we can't do everything for you.

17:23.285 --> 17:25.345
You have got to start doing things for yourself.

17:25.345 --> 17:29.505
They started to talk to talk about citizenship

17:29.565 --> 17:33.705
and how individuals have to learn to cope with these,

17:34.405 --> 17:37.585
with these kind of circumstances.

17:38.685 --> 17:41.515
And, there was,

17:41.805 --> 17:45.075
there was much more state intervention,

17:45.255 --> 17:49.365
and certainly what the labor government did with,

17:49.365 --> 17:51.965
looking after children in communities.

17:52.185 --> 17:54.845
And what were those centers called? Sure. Start centers.

17:55.475 --> 17:57.325
Sure. Start was absolutely fantastic.

17:58.065 --> 18:00.005
And it started to say, well,

18:00.025 --> 18:01.965
we will talk about community resilience

18:02.065 --> 18:04.405
and we will talk about building that community resilience.

18:04.745 --> 18:08.485
But at the same time, there was also this responsibles,

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which can easily kind of flip into blaming

18:14.225 --> 18:17.005
of communities because they haven't pulled their socks up.

18:17.665 --> 18:20.325
Um, so unfortunately that kind of neoliberalism,

18:20.325 --> 18:23.085
there was a hiatus from it in the first term

18:23.085 --> 18:24.125
of the labor government,

18:24.125 --> 18:26.165
but then it started to creep back in.

18:26.585 --> 18:28.045
And then since austerity,

18:28.685 --> 18:31.365
I think things have got far, far worse.

18:31.785 --> 18:35.325
And all those support networks which were built up

18:35.325 --> 18:37.885
around things like sure start, have been withdrawn.

18:38.105 --> 18:39.845
You can't even go to a library in some

18:39.845 --> 18:42.005
of these communities now in the same way

18:42.005 --> 18:43.005
that you could in the past.

18:43.825 --> 18:47.005
Um, and what does that say to people about,

18:47.105 --> 18:49.285
how they can improve their lives and, and,

18:49.345 --> 18:50.405
and better themselves?

18:51.065 --> 18:55.125
Um, we've got more, we've got problems in schools,

18:55.315 --> 18:58.525
much more problem with housing, the lack of social housing.

18:58.665 --> 19:00.005
So people are trapped in,

19:00.345 --> 19:04.085
in quite difficult housing situations now, situations.

19:04.085 --> 19:07.405
And I do think as well that there's been a, probably

19:07.405 --> 19:09.725
because it's, this has been going on for so long,

19:10.035 --> 19:12.085
there's been an erosion in trust.

19:13.025 --> 19:15.405
Um, there's certainly been,

19:15.625 --> 19:18.775
an erosion in trust in the police, over

19:18.775 --> 19:19.935
that time period.

19:20.355 --> 19:24.615
And especially with all the, the case around

19:25.145 --> 19:26.175
Sarah Everard

19:26.395 --> 19:30.805
and, sort of the, all the reports there've been recently

19:30.805 --> 19:32.845
around the Metropolitan police example

19:32.985 --> 19:36.005
and the Metropolitan Police not understanding community

19:36.045 --> 19:39.285
dynamics and, and seeing some communities

19:39.305 --> 19:41.045
as problematic communities,

19:41.045 --> 19:42.525
whereas actually there's communities

19:42.525 --> 19:45.885
with problems rather than problematic communities.

19:46.625 --> 19:49.565
Um, and so unfortunately,

19:50.085 --> 19:53.445
I think people feel even more abandoned from those kind

19:53.445 --> 19:55.765
of authorities, which they may have looked at in the past

19:56.665 --> 19:59.205
for some kind of help and support.

19:59.985 --> 20:01.725
Uh, people don't know who to trust,

20:02.745 --> 20:07.305
and there has been a growth in local gang cultures,

20:07.685 --> 20:11.345
and I think part of that is local people thinking, well,

20:11.345 --> 20:12.665
if I can't trust the authorities,

20:12.865 --> 20:14.825
I can't trust the law enforcement agencies.

20:14.825 --> 20:17.345
Maybe I can trust the people down my street.

20:18.075 --> 20:19.105
Maybe I can trust them

20:19.105 --> 20:20.985
because they've been through the same kinds

20:20.985 --> 20:22.905
of experiences that I have.

20:23.835 --> 20:27.285
What we found when we looked at these two communities was

20:27.285 --> 20:30.965
that although they appear to have very similar profiles,

20:31.445 --> 20:34.245
actually when you drill down to c community level,

20:34.695 --> 20:37.245
there were very, very different dynamics going on.

20:37.785 --> 20:39.365
So in the community that I'd lived in,

20:39.365 --> 20:42.565
the Bank Hill community as we called it,

20:42.855 --> 20:47.545
these were people who were struggling to find answers

20:47.725 --> 20:50.465
to the problems of crime and fear of crime.

20:50.565 --> 20:52.025
And they were looking to authorities

20:52.025 --> 20:53.105
and the police to help them,

20:53.525 --> 20:57.345
but they weren't getting the answers that, that they needed.

20:58.215 --> 21:02.865
Whereas when we went to the second community old town

21:03.205 --> 21:06.105
and we were asking the same questions about fear of crime

21:06.105 --> 21:08.985
and crime rates, we got very, very different response

21:09.505 --> 21:11.465
straight from the beginning where people saying these

21:11.705 --> 21:13.145
questions that you are asking us,

21:13.145 --> 21:14.305
they don't mean anything to us.

21:14.505 --> 21:15.865
I, we don't know what you are talking about.

21:16.045 --> 21:17.305
Yes, there's high crime rates,

21:17.365 --> 21:19.265
but it's okay, round table if you're local.

21:19.925 --> 21:23.815
Um, it's, as long as you know the guy down the streets,

21:24.075 --> 21:26.815
if something happens to you, we we can fix it.

21:26.915 --> 21:28.175
You know, things can be fixed.

21:28.755 --> 21:31.095
Um, what other kinds of things did they say to us?

21:31.315 --> 21:36.015
Um, things like, let me just find my,

21:36.195 --> 21:40.415
yeah, so quotes like this, it's all right

21:40.415 --> 21:41.415
around here if you're local.

21:41.685 --> 21:43.935
It's not for strangers, but it is for local people.

21:44.005 --> 21:45.455
Another one, it's okay for me,

21:45.615 --> 21:47.055
I grew up with the local villains.

21:47.175 --> 21:49.535
I know the local youth, other,

21:49.725 --> 21:51.495
it's okay if you're a member of the community,

21:52.255 --> 21:53.375
somebody else, we have a code

21:53.375 --> 21:54.695
here, we look after each other.

21:55.315 --> 21:56.775
Um, another person.

21:56.875 --> 21:59.175
Get to know somebody who knows somebody and you'll be okay.

22:00.155 --> 22:02.135
So what we found was that these,

22:02.355 --> 22:04.535
as I was talking about different cities having these

22:04.535 --> 22:08.575
different ways of, of coping different strategies.

22:08.915 --> 22:10.855
So local communities have these as well.

22:11.755 --> 22:16.225
So, we tend to, as a nation,

22:17.365 --> 22:20.025
put all these communities under the same umbrella

22:20.765 --> 22:22.585
and say, if you've got a problem,

22:22.775 --> 22:24.105
this is the solution to it.

22:24.805 --> 22:27.665
It makes no sense whatsoever to talk

22:27.805 --> 22:30.305
to two communities like Old Town

22:30.305 --> 22:32.705
and Bank Hill, who appear on the surface to be

22:32.805 --> 22:33.825
so absolutely similar,

22:34.285 --> 22:37.225
but actually really their lived reality

22:37.485 --> 22:38.705
is completely different.

22:39.525 --> 22:43.265
Um, what we found was that in Old Town, there was a,

22:43.385 --> 22:47.105
a local gang, who were doing a Robin Hood kind

22:47.105 --> 22:48.465
of culture,

22:48.845 --> 22:50.825
and was, were saying to people,

22:50.965 --> 22:53.105
you keep on our side, we'll look after you.

22:53.565 --> 22:55.025
The the police aren't going to do it.

22:55.025 --> 22:57.025
The local authorities aren't going to do it.

22:57.155 --> 23:00.145
We'll look after you. Um, we know what your problems are.

23:01.205 --> 23:03.985
And you have to think about why does it make sense

23:04.485 --> 23:07.825
for people to make the decisions that they make

23:08.085 --> 23:11.545
around supporting that kind of local culture, if you like,

23:12.125 --> 23:15.345
rather than to write off these communities.

23:15.765 --> 23:16.785
So two things.

23:17.205 --> 23:19.585
One is that you can't treat all communities the same

23:19.585 --> 23:21.065
because some of them have very,

23:21.095 --> 23:22.865
very different local dynamics.

23:23.685 --> 23:27.485
Um, second thing is that,

23:28.545 --> 23:32.185
if you write off communities with problems

23:32.405 --> 23:35.545
as problematic communities, you are never going to get

23:35.545 --> 23:37.105
to the source of what you need

23:37.105 --> 23:38.865
to do in those communities in order

23:38.885 --> 23:40.185
to help and support them.

23:40.925 --> 23:45.105
Uh, there was too much kind of dismissal of high,

23:45.405 --> 23:48.465
of communities with high crime as,

23:49.485 --> 23:51.535
high crime communities can't do anything

23:51.535 --> 23:53.055
with them, huge problems.

23:53.795 --> 23:57.775
Um, so I, we called for less

23:58.295 --> 24:01.455
condemnation of people who live in high crime communities

24:01.915 --> 24:04.695
and more understanding of the local dynamics

24:04.695 --> 24:06.415
of the situation that they're working in.

24:06.835 --> 24:09.055
And then what we also said was that if you

24:09.055 --> 24:11.795
therefore want to help people to make,

24:12.015 --> 24:14.835
better decisions in their life, then you have to find out

24:14.905 --> 24:17.235
what are the local support mechanisms that need

24:17.235 --> 24:21.875
to be put in place in order to help people get out of

24:22.615 --> 24:25.375
the, the situation that they're in,

24:25.675 --> 24:28.655
and to build hope for the future.

24:29.555 --> 24:33.055
Um, and zero tolerance of

24:33.665 --> 24:37.215
local cultures, zero tolerance of areas

24:37.425 --> 24:39.335
where crime rates might be high

24:39.515 --> 24:43.455
or local cultures might appear to be less acceptable

24:44.165 --> 24:45.175
than you think they are,

24:45.515 --> 24:48.175
or that that than you as a policymaker would think they are,

24:48.835 --> 24:52.255
is, you are not going to get anywhere at all,

24:53.415 --> 24:56.065
with those, with those communities.

24:56.765 --> 25:01.065
And I suppose lastly as well, I think it's important

25:01.095 --> 25:03.945
that we do put those support networks in place.

25:04.645 --> 25:07.745
Um, and that we don't do, we move away from this idea

25:07.745 --> 25:10.625
that communities can sort problems out themselves.

25:11.135 --> 25:15.585
They try, you know, they absolutely do their utmost to try

25:15.685 --> 25:20.385
to find solutions to the situations that they're in,

25:20.725 --> 25:22.625
but they don't al those solutions aren't

25:22.625 --> 25:23.785
always present for them.

25:24.485 --> 25:28.305
And it is, up to those of us in,

25:29.085 --> 25:32.305
in some kind of authority, those of us who have some kind

25:32.305 --> 25:36.585
of, ability to try to, to make life better for them.

25:36.725 --> 25:41.225
We find out what those mechanisms are that will help people

25:41.325 --> 25:42.865
to achieve and to,

25:43.565 --> 25:47.885
and to move on from, from some of the dire situations,

25:47.885 --> 25:52.125
which unfortunately we did find, in our research.

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