Popular in History

Arts and Humanities

Titus Quinctius Flamininus’ “Italian triumph”

McGill University Michael Fronda

Arts and Humanities

Lincoln and the Jews

Brandeis University Jonathan Sarna

Arts and Humanities

Early Modern Natural Law Theories

University of Copenhagen Knud Haakonssen

Arts and Humanities

Phoenicians Among Others: Why Migrants Mattered in the Ancient Mediterranean

University of California San Diego Denise Demetriou

Arts and Humanities

The loneliness of leadership

University of Liverpool Elaine Chalus

Arts and Humanities

La Güera Rodríguez

Brandeis University Silvia Arrom

Arts and Humanities

The Myth of Continuity in American Gun Culture

University of California Berkeley Brian DeLay

Frontline Surgeon: New Zealand Medical Pioneer Douglas Jolly

View more insights in Arts and Humanities - Books - European History

View more figures from Independent Scholar

View the page of Mark Derby

Read the Study

· Tools Cite Embed

Mark Derby discusses New Zealander Douglas Jolly, one of the most gifted and energetic surgeons of the Republican Army’s medical services

Image courtesy of interviewee. September 12, 2024

Log-in or Sign-up to Faculti
Currently viewing this subject insight as a guest. You have insight(s) remaining for this month.

Workspace

Faculti AI is thinking...

< >

Summary
Related Studies
Faculti AI
Key Points
Key Quotes
Translate
Transcript

Export as PDF

This video provides an extensive overview of a New Zealand-born doctor, Doug Jolly, who made significant contributions to field surgery during the Spanish Civil War and World War II. Born in 1904 in a small town in New Zealand, he initially trained as a doctor, later specializing in surgery. Political turmoil in Europe during the early 1930s led him to engage in anti-fascist efforts, and he served in the Republican army's medical services during the Spanish Civil War, where he performed around 2,000 abdominal surgeries.

Jolly's approach to surgery emphasized speed and system efficiency over individual surgeon skill, leading to improved survival rates for patients with severe injuries. He developed a triage system that prioritized getting patients to operating rooms quickly and involved all medical personnel in the process, arguing that the entire system's effectiveness, not just the surgeon's talent, was critical for patient survival.

Despite his remarkable wartime achievements, Jolly's post-war career in Britain was less prominent, partly due to his leftist views, his Kiwi identity, and a struggle with a bipolar disorder that affected him throughout his life. He authored a significant book on field surgery that remained widely used for decades, influencing modern medical practices in emergency care and surgery. Jolly's legacy includes advancements in surgical techniques and processes that are still in use today in various medical organizations, including Doctors Without Borders.

Language:

Export as PDF

Export as PDF
Here are five key points from the video:

1. **Background of the Doctor**: The individual spoken about is a New Zealand-born doctor who was born in 1904 in a small, remote town in New Zealand. He grew up in a family without a medical background, as his father was a storekeeper in a gold mining settlement.

2. **Involvement in the Spanish Civil War**: He trained as a doctor and laterwent to London for specialist surgical qualifications. However, when the Spanish Civil War broke out in 1936, he abandoned his surgical studies to serve in the medical services of the Republican army, making a significant personal sacrifice for his beliefs.

3. **Innovations in Medical Practice**: During his time treating soldiers in Spain, he performed around 2,000 abdominal surgeries and developed a system for improving the survival rates of injured individuals by ensuring they received prompt medical care. He emphasized that the speed of treatment was more critical than the surgeon’s skill alone.

4. **Legacy and Influence**: Following the war, he published a highly regarded book on field surgery, which was used by medical professionals during World War II and remained relevant for decades. His system of medical treatment has influenced modern battlefield medicine and is still in use by organizations like Doctors Without Borders.

5. **Personal Challenges and Recognition**: Despite his significant contributions, he faced challenges due to his psychiatric condition (bipolar disorder) and was not permitted to practice surgery in his later career within civilian medicine. His achievements went largely unrecognized, and he lived a quiet life, even as his contemporaries gained fame.

Export as PDF
Here are some key quotes from the video you :

1. **Introduction of the Subject:**
"He was, uh, a compatriot of mine, obviously, a New Zealand born doctor, uh, born, um, right at the beginning of the 20th century in 1904, uh, and into a very small remote town..."

2. **Idealism and Sacrifice:**
"So, uh, uh, you know, an idealistic man and somebody who was prepared to make those kind of sacrifices for what he believed."

3. **Medical Service during War:**
"When the Spanish Civil War broke out mid 1936, he abandoned his, um, surgical studies...and left for Spain to serve, uh, uh, in the medical services of the Republican army."

4. **Impact of His Work:**
"He is believed to have performed somewhere like 2000 abdominal operations...this is an extremely intricate, um, and difficult form of surgery."

5. **Emphasis on the System Over Individual Skill:**
"He said, it's not the surgeon, it's the system."

6. **Regarding Early Treatment Timing:**
"You could be the most brilliant surgeon in the world, and if you’re operating on somebody with gangrene after they’ve been wounded four days, they’re not gonna make it."

7. **Contribution to Modern Medicine:**
"He developed systems for greatly improving the chances of survival of those he treated, and this is really his most important contribution to modern medicine."

8. **Legacy and Recognition:**
"What I find extraordinary is that it remained in use and unsurpassed for 25 years."

9. **Treatment of All Patients:**
"His Christian socialist principles insisted that he treated everybody who had a chance of survival...because they were all human. They were all of equal value in his eyes."

10. **Personal Challenges:**
"...throughout his adult life, he suffered periodically from a psychiatric condition of a bipolar nature."

These quotes capture the essence of the subject matter, highlighting the doctor's background, ideals, contributions to medicine, and his personal struggles.

Export as PDF
Here are some articles that share themes or subjects similar to the video you about Doug Jolly:

1. **"Innovative Medical Practices of War Surgeons"**
- This article explores the contributions of various surgeons during wartime, emphasizing innovations in surgical techniques and triage methods developed under extreme conditions, much like those of Doug Jolly.

2. **"The Role of Medical Professionals in the Spanish Civil War"**
- Similar to Jolly's experience, this article examines the involvement of doctors and medical personnel in the Spanish Civil War, highlighting their humanitarian efforts and the challenges they faced in a conflict-ridden environment.

3. **"Military Medicine: Evolution and Impact on Civilian Practices"**
- This piece discusses how practices developed in military medicine, including field surgery and triage systems, have influenced civilian healthcare systems. It includes accounts of prominent figures akin to Doug Jolly.

4. **"The Legacy of Trauma Surgery During World War II"**
- An analysis of surgical advancements born from the experiences of WWII, showcasing various surgeons' approaches to trauma care, including efficiency and systemic practices that echo Jolly's methods.

5. **"Doctors on the Frontlines: The Humanitarian Crisis and Surgical Challenges"**
- This article features stories of medical professionals who risked their lives in war zones to provide care, similar to Jay's experiences during the Spanish Civil War and WWII.

6. **"Mental Health in Medical Professionals: Challenges and Resilience"**
- Exploring the psychological struggles faced by healthcare providers in high-stress environments, this article reflects on the balance of personal health and professional dedication, akin to Jolly's battle with bipolar disorder.

7. **"Pioneers in Emergency Medicine: Historical Perspectives"**
- A historical overview of key figures in emergency medicine, detailing how their experiences and publications, like Jolly's book, shaped modern practices in emergency surgical care.

These articles can help you explore related themes of wartime medicine, surgical innovation, and the personal narratives of healthcare providers facing unique challenges in conflict zones.

X-TIMESTAMP-MAP:LOCAL=00:00:00.000,MPEGTS=900000

00:00.185 --> 00:03.045
He was, a compatriot of mine, obviously,

00:03.285 --> 00:07.725
a New Zealand born doctor, born,

00:08.175 --> 00:12.165
right at the beginning of the 20th century in 1904,

00:12.905 --> 00:17.725
and into a very small remote town, small and remote then,

00:17.725 --> 00:18.885
and still quite small

00:19.165 --> 00:22.405
and remote today, in the south island of New Zealand.

00:22.545 --> 00:24.485
So a long way from anywhere.

00:25.605 --> 00:28.785
Uh, and his father was the local storekeeper.

00:28.785 --> 00:30.785
There was in a gold mining settlement, actually,

00:32.005 --> 00:34.305
so certainly not from any kind of medical background,

00:34.405 --> 00:39.145
but, went, as a border to the nearest city,

00:40.095 --> 00:42.835
and, trained as a doctor there.

00:44.335 --> 00:46.985
Went to London to study

00:47.005 --> 00:49.025
for specialist qualifications in surgery.

00:50.125 --> 00:54.665
Uh, and he arrived there in, in the early thirties.

00:55.855 --> 01:00.035
It was a tumultuous time politically, in Europe.

01:00.895 --> 01:05.395
And he, he was part of a group, a very impressive group

01:05.535 --> 01:07.275
of people who were endeavoring

01:07.295 --> 01:08.955
to confront the Minister of Fascism.

01:09.495 --> 01:12.155
Uh, and particularly with Christian principles.

01:12.155 --> 01:14.195
They came from a variety of Christian backgrounds.

01:14.215 --> 01:16.475
He, himself was a Presbyterian by upbringing,

01:17.415 --> 01:21.435
and they hoped to, form,

01:22.115 --> 01:24.675
a synthesis of, Christian

01:24.675 --> 01:29.395
and Marxist ideals as a, as a means of combating,

01:29.455 --> 01:31.355
the wave of fascism, which was,

01:31.355 --> 01:33.515
overtaking one country after another in Europe.

01:34.095 --> 01:36.075
And he subscribed to these views

01:36.215 --> 01:37.755
and never in fact departed

01:37.755 --> 01:38.915
from them for the rest of his life.

01:40.985 --> 01:42.005
And as a result of that,

01:42.315 --> 01:45.645
when the Spanish Civil War broke out mid 1936,

01:46.385 --> 01:50.645
he abandoned his, surgical studies to become a fellow

01:50.645 --> 01:52.005
of the Royal College of Surgeons,

01:52.505 --> 01:57.405
and left for Spain to serve, in the medical services

01:57.425 --> 01:58.685
of the Republican army.

01:59.115 --> 02:02.205
This was a big decision to make, professionally for him,

02:02.205 --> 02:05.885
because he was on the point of, of,

02:07.035 --> 02:08.725
gaining his fellowship and

02:08.725 --> 02:10.165
therefore qualifying as a surgeon.

02:10.905 --> 02:14.045
Uh, but he chose to defer, to defer that.

02:14.065 --> 02:16.485
And in fact, as things turns out, he never did, qualify.

02:18.485 --> 02:21.105
So, you know, an idealistic man

02:21.165 --> 02:23.065
and somebody who was prepared to make those kind

02:23.065 --> 02:24.465
of sacrifices for what he believed.

02:24.655 --> 02:27.145
I've been in, involved in this subject sort

02:27.145 --> 02:29.425
of intermittently for something like 20 years.

02:29.725 --> 02:34.705
And as a result, I've acquired a, a body

02:34.705 --> 02:38.505
of knowledge, a, a, a, a few shelf full of books on it,

02:38.685 --> 02:43.065
and in particular, and most usefully contacts with a,

02:43.655 --> 02:45.825
worldwide community of researchers,

02:45.825 --> 02:48.985
on the Spanish Civil War, academics and otherwise.

02:50.125 --> 02:53.145
And I relied on them, really,

02:53.605 --> 02:54.985
to, to research the subject.

02:55.085 --> 02:57.065
It wasn't easy. It was a difficult book to research.

02:57.585 --> 02:58.705
I did the whole thing from,

02:59.185 --> 03:01.445
Uh, from, from my own,

03:02.115 --> 03:04.285
from this room right here in Wellington, New Zealand,

03:04.335 --> 03:08.805
where I live, despite the fact that jolly himself,

03:08.815 --> 03:10.925
spent nearly all his life overseas in Europe.

03:11.065 --> 03:13.805
So the research was done at a distance, quite a bit

03:13.805 --> 03:15.045
of it was carried out during covid,

03:15.135 --> 03:16.605
which was particularly problematic.

03:16.625 --> 03:19.045
It wasn't meant that some of the institutions, academic

03:19.105 --> 03:22.445
and research institutions that I was contacting,

03:22.465 --> 03:25.325
for information about him, were unable to access their own,

03:25.465 --> 03:27.205
their own materials.

03:28.065 --> 03:32.855
Uh, and a a further problem was that, Jo served

03:32.855 --> 03:34.335
with the international brigades,

03:34.545 --> 03:38.065
50 different countries speaking, who knows

03:38.065 --> 03:39.265
how many different languages.

03:39.565 --> 03:41.825
And so quite a bit of the information about him was in

03:42.025 --> 03:45.425
languages that I don't speak such as Hungarian and Basque

03:46.085 --> 03:48.465
and Dutch, and Catalan.

03:48.965 --> 03:52.505
Um, and I needed to first locate that information

03:52.645 --> 03:54.385
and second, to be able to

03:54.965 --> 03:56.585
get it translated to understand it.

03:57.005 --> 03:59.825
So it was a, demanding research process.

04:00.165 --> 04:02.945
But I'm, I'm very pleased with the result.

04:03.045 --> 04:04.065
He was very fit.

04:05.005 --> 04:08.585
He, he was somebody who, enjoyed physical activity.

04:08.645 --> 04:10.305
He was a sports star at school.

04:10.325 --> 04:11.985
He played rugby for his university.

04:12.925 --> 04:16.145
Uh, he was apparently a very likable character.

04:16.825 --> 04:21.465
He had a, a string of girlfriends,

04:21.605 --> 04:23.905
and sometimes more than one at a time.

04:24.365 --> 04:27.065
And, he and,

04:27.165 --> 04:31.515
and very, very dear friends who remained friends

04:31.535 --> 04:32.835
of his, you know, for decades.

04:32.975 --> 04:35.235
One of them was an e

04:35.235 --> 04:37.435
Hungarian born economist named Carl Palani.

04:37.815 --> 04:41.875
Um, later, very distinguished economist,

04:41.875 --> 04:43.515
as a result of his work in the us.

04:44.175 --> 04:49.115
And, my book quotes from the very long,

04:49.915 --> 04:51.355
detailed, intimate letters between,

04:51.855 --> 04:54.195
and that they exchanged over many years.

04:54.415 --> 04:58.515
He, he trained, in, in medicine at Otago University,

04:58.515 --> 05:00.715
which was then the only medical school in this country,

05:01.295 --> 05:02.435
in the 1920s.

05:04.265 --> 05:07.595
Many of his teachers, his, his lecturers were,

05:07.655 --> 05:09.035
ex-servicemen.

05:09.035 --> 05:12.795
They had served, as, as doctors in World War I.

05:13.415 --> 05:16.075
And there was a strong tradition of,

05:17.155 --> 05:18.805
medical service, of medical surgery.

05:18.985 --> 05:21.725
But the training that he received,

05:21.995 --> 05:24.005
drew on the experience of that war.

05:24.225 --> 05:26.765
So he was basically trained to be,

05:27.105 --> 05:28.925
to be a doctor in World War I.

05:29.705 --> 05:33.645
Um, he, he was,

05:33.835 --> 05:35.005
very gifted in surgery,

05:35.105 --> 05:37.005
and that's what he chose to specialize in.

05:37.025 --> 05:41.965
So, after he, he graduated in medicine itself,

05:42.145 --> 05:43.525
he, he left, as I say, for London.

05:43.745 --> 05:45.965
And he spent several years actually working

05:46.185 --> 05:49.045
as a house surgeon in various London public hospitals,

05:49.275 --> 05:51.805
receiving a very broad, general useful,

05:52.425 --> 05:53.605
clinical training.

05:54.765 --> 05:58.605
Uh, at the same time as studying for the, legendarily

05:59.125 --> 06:01.445
rigorous exams for the Royal College of Surgeons.

06:03.325 --> 06:05.705
Uh, he left for Spain, and

06:05.905 --> 06:08.705
although not at that point, a qualified surgeon,

06:08.925 --> 06:12.185
he was immediately appointed, to the, to the role

06:12.185 --> 06:16.825
of surgeon, and in fact, placed in charge of a, a, a field

06:17.345 --> 06:20.105
hospital, a mobile field hospital of, of about 12 people,

06:20.215 --> 06:24.905
doctors, nurses, and, and, and, and technicians,

06:26.005 --> 06:29.865
and instructed to serve where the fighting was fiercest at

06:29.865 --> 06:32.025
that point, which happened to be, on the fringes

06:32.025 --> 06:33.345
of Madrid during Thes Madrid.

06:34.605 --> 06:38.225
And, this was a, a, a huge, I mean,

06:38.225 --> 06:40.185
it was really being flung into the deep

06:40.205 --> 06:41.345
end for somebody like him.

06:42.805 --> 06:47.035
Uh, he, his, his, his unit,

06:47.595 --> 06:49.475
represented about, seven different nationalities

06:49.535 --> 06:51.235
and a number of different languages.

06:51.295 --> 06:54.235
Not, sometimes no common language between them.

06:54.295 --> 06:57.435
It was hard for them to communicate until they managed

06:57.435 --> 06:59.355
to learn enough of each other's language to rub along.

06:59.865 --> 07:01.275
What is interesting to me is

07:01.275 --> 07:04.195
that his instructions never really changed for the rest

07:04.195 --> 07:07.515
of the Spanish Civil War, he was always required to move

07:07.655 --> 07:08.995
to wherever the fighting was fierce.

07:09.455 --> 07:12.115
The Spanish Civil War had a long lulls

07:12.135 --> 07:13.195
on some of its fronts.

07:13.195 --> 07:15.475
George Orwell describes these periods of boredom

07:15.475 --> 07:17.355
where all you're doing is conducting a holding action.

07:18.375 --> 07:21.395
He never had that kind of break in his, in,

07:21.395 --> 07:22.635
in his time in Spain, because

07:22.955 --> 07:25.515
whenever biting died down, he was moved off to

07:25.515 --> 07:26.915
where it was flaring up against somewhere else.

07:27.295 --> 07:28.875
So, extraordinarily intense.

07:29.695 --> 07:32.595
In the course of his time in Spain, he is believed

07:32.735 --> 07:37.475
to have performed somewhere like 2000 abdominal operations.

07:37.495 --> 07:39.275
He specialized in abdominal surgery

07:39.455 --> 07:42.995
and people who, who basically had their guts shot open.

07:43.415 --> 07:45.395
And, this is an extremely intricate,

07:45.395 --> 07:46.515
and difficult form of surgery.

07:46.515 --> 07:47.755
This is what he specialized in,

07:47.755 --> 07:50.155
and he's believed to have carried out more

07:50.295 --> 07:51.355
of those operations,

07:51.665 --> 07:54.515
certainly than any surgeon would normally see in their

07:54.515 --> 07:57.115
entire professional career, but quite possibly more than any

07:57.115 --> 08:00.035
surgeon had ever performed in history to that day,

08:00.825 --> 08:04.515
because of the intensity of a warfare,

08:04.515 --> 08:06.515
that may seem, hyperbolic.

08:06.515 --> 08:09.475
But, that's a, a well in a,

08:09.475 --> 08:10.635
well, a well attested view.

08:12.075 --> 08:16.825
Uh, he developed, he developed systems

08:17.685 --> 08:20.665
for greatly improving the chances of survival

08:20.725 --> 08:24.225
of those he treated, and this is really his most important

08:24.585 --> 08:25.825
contribution to modern medicine.

08:26.045 --> 08:28.465
He didn't develop a new medical technique.

08:28.885 --> 08:32.025
He didn't develop a new medical tool,

08:32.505 --> 08:33.945
a a new kind of operation.

08:33.945 --> 08:36.785
What he did was alter the whole system by which

08:37.865 --> 08:41.935
patients are brought to hospital and, and,

08:41.995 --> 08:45.295
and the role of the surgeon Within that process.

08:46.675 --> 08:49.815
Uh, in World War I, many people, even

08:49.815 --> 08:51.615
with very severe wounds, stomach wounds

08:51.615 --> 08:53.615
and so on, didn't get onto an operating table

08:53.675 --> 08:54.935
for something like four days.

08:56.355 --> 08:58.095
Uh, the chances of survival were,

08:58.125 --> 08:59.575
were very small by that time.

09:01.355 --> 09:03.585
Jolly wanted them on his table within four hours,

09:04.525 --> 09:07.385
and he found ways to do this, even if it meant,

09:08.215 --> 09:10.065
staging his little mobile hospitals,

09:10.065 --> 09:11.145
which were often in tents

09:11.145 --> 09:15.185
and caves, in trucks,

09:15.995 --> 09:18.945
right up close to the front lines so that,

09:19.005 --> 09:23.105
people could be carried on stretcher by, by mule,

09:23.905 --> 09:26.465
whatever it took to get them to where they could be treated.

09:27.485 --> 09:31.925
Uh, and, and he pointed out that this meant that the role

09:31.925 --> 09:34.925
of the surgeon is not the most important factor.

09:35.625 --> 09:37.605
He said, it's not the surgeon, it's the system.

09:37.905 --> 09:39.725
You could be the most brilliant surgeon in the world,

09:39.725 --> 09:41.565
and if you're operating on somebody with gangrene

09:41.565 --> 09:42.965
after they've been wounded four days,

09:42.965 --> 09:43.965
they're not gonna make it.

09:44.585 --> 09:46.925
But you could be a very novice surgeon,

09:47.065 --> 09:48.805
and you're operating on someone soon

09:48.805 --> 09:51.765
after they've been hurt, and you have a chance of saving.

09:52.425 --> 09:55.245
And, so he said the ambulance drivers,

09:55.465 --> 10:00.045
the stretcher bearers, the, the, the theater nurses,

10:00.625 --> 10:02.765
the guys who shave the patients

10:02.765 --> 10:05.205
before they're operated on, these are all crucial

10:05.625 --> 10:07.085
to their survival, and they need to be,

10:07.265 --> 10:08.365
regarded as such.

10:10.065 --> 10:14.965
So he, he set up a three tier system, of,

10:14.985 --> 10:17.445
we, we are very first of all, right at the front line.

10:17.915 --> 10:21.725
There's, a kind of just a couple of guys

10:21.725 --> 10:25.005
with bandages and, and anesthetic and,

10:25.005 --> 10:28.445
and so on, to, to treat people immediately and, and,

10:28.445 --> 10:31.165
and, put a two and a K on gushing wounds.

10:31.265 --> 10:33.605
Second, is the field hospital a bit further back.

10:33.605 --> 10:36.685
The one that he headed, and beyond that, further back again,

10:36.825 --> 10:39.685
are base hospitals where his patients were,

10:40.185 --> 10:41.365
transferred to.

10:41.425 --> 10:43.605
As soon as they were stable enough to be moved.

10:43.985 --> 10:45.165
He had no facilities

10:45.165 --> 10:47.285
for keeping his patients for any length of time.

10:47.825 --> 10:49.725
So as soon as they could be safely moved,

10:49.725 --> 10:51.605
they were moved sometimes on trains,

10:52.385 --> 10:54.365
on trucks, whatever was involved.

10:54.425 --> 10:57.045
So the transportation system was critical to his system.

10:58.185 --> 11:01.725
Uh, he, he would cite his hospitals within reach

11:01.745 --> 11:04.085
of train lines and, and, and roads and so on.

11:04.085 --> 11:07.245
Very important in Spain, which had a very underdeveloped,

11:07.505 --> 11:08.925
infrastructure in those days.

11:09.185 --> 11:13.565
The first thing he does really is, enlist in,

11:13.625 --> 11:16.565
in the RAMC in, in the British Army's medical Service,

11:17.035 --> 11:20.365
because, he has exceptional,

11:20.365 --> 11:23.765
exceptionally valuable knowledge of the kind of war that,

11:23.825 --> 11:25.245
Britain is about to be facing.

11:25.275 --> 11:28.245
That is an aerial war dominated by aerial bombing,

11:28.435 --> 11:31.045
intensive aerial bombing of built up urban areas.

11:31.095 --> 11:33.405
Never happened before in history other than in Spain.

11:33.785 --> 11:35.805
So he had knowledge of the kind of injuries

11:35.805 --> 11:37.685
and the kind of treatment that was gonna be necessary

11:37.785 --> 11:40.325
for people, who were, who were victims of that war.

11:41.305 --> 11:44.965
Uh, and, so he wa he was, sent out

11:44.965 --> 11:47.145
to the Middle East,

11:47.245 --> 11:50.785
and he, he spent a number, he spent a couple of years

11:50.785 --> 11:53.695
or so, several years, running the same sort

11:53.695 --> 11:55.975
of mobile field hospitals that he'd run in Spain,

11:56.215 --> 11:59.135
although these ones were much further apart, the desert war,

11:59.355 --> 12:02.495
involved in transportation across great distances.

12:03.075 --> 12:05.255
But nonetheless, he was still doing the same kind of thing,

12:05.255 --> 12:06.255
trying to get his patients

12:06.255 --> 12:09.015
to him in the shortest possible time,

12:09.815 --> 12:11.775
stabilizing them, moving them back to,

12:11.915 --> 12:13.295
to hospitals behind the lines.

12:14.025 --> 12:16.055
Eventually, once they'd driven the Germans out

12:16.055 --> 12:18.615
of North Africa, they crossed over into Sicily

12:18.615 --> 12:19.975
and Italy, and he did the same.

12:19.995 --> 12:21.095
His hospitals followed them,

12:21.095 --> 12:25.295
because, as I say, he always worked up by the front lines,

12:25.575 --> 12:27.855
wherever the, the most intense fighting was taking place.

12:28.595 --> 12:31.815
And he spent the rest of his war in, in Italy,

12:31.815 --> 12:34.575
mostly near Naples, where he was the head

12:34.575 --> 12:39.055
of surgery at a big, hospital that treated both British

12:39.275 --> 12:40.935
and, New Zealand troops.

12:43.325 --> 12:45.065
Uh, and then after that, he went back to Britain

12:45.765 --> 12:49.145
and spent the rest of his career in civilian medicine.

12:50.435 --> 12:52.095
And extraordinarily,

12:52.395 --> 12:53.855
he was not permitted to practice surgery.

12:53.995 --> 12:55.935
He was one of the most experienced,

12:56.035 --> 12:59.535
and highly regarded surgeons in the world, guys

12:59.535 --> 13:02.095
that he served with in Spain, whose names you may have heard

13:02.095 --> 13:03.575
of, because they later became kind

13:03.575 --> 13:05.015
of pillars of the National Health Service.

13:05.715 --> 13:10.135
Um, original, original Saxton, Archibald Cochrane,

13:10.225 --> 13:11.615
these guys got knighthoods.

13:11.955 --> 13:14.335
Uh, they had, you know, hospitals named after them.

13:14.445 --> 13:16.735
They, they were hugely regarded,

13:16.835 --> 13:18.855
and they deserved to be, but what they said is,

13:18.855 --> 13:20.095
Doug Jolly was better than us.

13:20.885 --> 13:23.065
He, he, he, he was a more influential

13:23.215 --> 13:25.145
surgeon, than we were.

13:25.925 --> 13:30.345
And yet, as their careers soared, his stagnated, he,

13:30.405 --> 13:33.185
he did eventually end up as, the medical director

13:33.245 --> 13:35.665
of the largest orthopedic hospital in Britain.

13:36.335 --> 13:39.225
It's called, queen Mary's Hospital place called

13:39.385 --> 13:41.385
Roehampton, outside of London, still there, I believe.

13:41.445 --> 13:45.425
Um, and, so he served there, but very quietly.

13:45.925 --> 13:48.225
Uh, he was by no means innovative.

13:49.125 --> 13:52.825
He was a, you know, he got the job done,

13:53.325 --> 13:56.265
but, he, it, it was a, a bit of a backwater,

13:56.885 --> 14:00.025
and it certainly was, beneath his, his,

14:00.325 --> 14:01.905
his capabilities, what you'd expect, really,

14:01.925 --> 14:03.145
of his wartime career.

14:03.445 --> 14:05.345
He had those same questions in

14:05.345 --> 14:06.385
my mind when I read about him.

14:06.585 --> 14:08.745
I was blown away when I first came across this guy,

14:08.745 --> 14:12.695
and I thought, hell, you know, he's barely known in,

14:12.695 --> 14:14.615
in New Zealand, but then of course, he spent most

14:14.615 --> 14:16.375
of his career over in Europe.

14:16.555 --> 14:17.975
I'm sure he's a big name over there.

14:18.035 --> 14:21.655
He wasn't, his name doesn't appear in the official war

14:21.655 --> 14:22.815
history of New Zealand,

14:23.155 --> 14:24.335
but it also doesn't appear in

14:24.335 --> 14:25.815
Britain's official war history either.

14:26.555 --> 14:30.695
And, you know, he sunk out of,

14:30.715 --> 14:31.775
the historical record.

14:32.805 --> 14:34.375
He's barely known to many

14:34.375 --> 14:35.935
of his own relatives here in New Zealand.

14:36.275 --> 14:37.695
All they know is that he went off overseas

14:37.715 --> 14:39.775
and then sort of, they lost contact with him.

14:40.475 --> 14:45.135
Um, he, I, I think the, you know,

14:45.195 --> 14:48.095
the reason is that the Spanish Civil War itself,

14:48.915 --> 14:50.175
was sometimes,

14:51.215 --> 14:52.435
People looked down on it.

14:52.435 --> 14:53.755
They regarded people more

14:53.755 --> 14:55.795
or less as mercenaries for taking part in it.

14:56.215 --> 15:00.155
Uh, it, it, it, many, once you got back home,

15:00.495 --> 15:02.235
it often didn't count in your favor to say

15:02.235 --> 15:04.275
that you had been a veteran of the Spanish Civil War.

15:04.425 --> 15:07.235
Furthermore, he was an unapologetic lefty

15:07.255 --> 15:09.875
and non-aligned, anti-fascist left winger.

15:10.345 --> 15:13.435
This didn't go well in the medical fraternity in Britain in

15:13.435 --> 15:14.875
the 1950s and so on.

15:15.375 --> 15:19.795
Uh, he was also, he was too much

15:19.795 --> 15:22.395
of a kiwi for the, for the Brits and, and,

15:22.535 --> 15:25.795
and too much of a, of a, of a Brit for the Kiwis.

15:26.215 --> 15:29.795
Um, so both countries kind of tended

15:29.795 --> 15:31.755
to shunt him off, out of sight.

15:32.615 --> 15:37.155
But beyond that, again, the most fundamental reason,

15:37.735 --> 15:39.995
and this came as a great surprise to me when I learned it,

15:40.335 --> 15:42.235
is that pretty much throughout his adult life,

15:42.235 --> 15:44.795
he suffered periodically from a psychiatric condition

15:44.895 --> 15:46.235
of a bipolar nature.

15:46.815 --> 15:50.635
And he would periodically be, be affected

15:50.775 --> 15:53.355
by this condition in wartime.

15:53.485 --> 15:55.915
Oddly enough, it was barely noticeable.

15:56.495 --> 15:59.395
And when it was, it sometimes appeared to work in his favor.

15:59.575 --> 16:02.835
He was famed renowned in Spain for being able to work

16:03.935 --> 16:07.585
nonstop at an extraordinary speed as a surgeon all day,

16:08.045 --> 16:12.955
all night, onto the next day without a break, sort of,

16:13.015 --> 16:17.275
whole, shifts of, of, of, assistants and, and,

16:17.415 --> 16:18.795
and nurses collapsing

16:18.795 --> 16:20.315
with exhaustion on the other side of the table.

16:20.375 --> 16:23.035
And he would just keep going. Ordinary people can't do that.

16:23.095 --> 16:25.715
But when you're on a high from, from,

16:25.735 --> 16:27.395
as he would be then it was possible.

16:28.455 --> 16:31.995
Uh, he, he was also notably courageous,

16:32.095 --> 16:34.515
and he was known for, for

16:37.405 --> 16:39.535
restoring the courage of those who worked with him.

16:39.535 --> 16:41.655
They would hear the bombs dropping closer and closer.

16:41.795 --> 16:43.535
The windows would be cracking in the room

16:43.535 --> 16:44.615
that they were working in.

16:44.615 --> 16:47.615
They'd be terrified, and he would stop what he was doing

16:47.755 --> 16:49.135
and break into the haka.

16:49.135 --> 16:50.295
You know what the haka is, right?

16:50.295 --> 16:51.535
This Maori war dancer,

16:51.635 --> 16:54.095
he would've learned it at high school in the rugby team

16:54.095 --> 16:56.095
because the rugby team would start the game with this,

16:56.395 --> 16:58.855
and he would do this, slapping his chest, stamping his foot,

16:59.605 --> 17:00.695
barking out the words.

17:01.155 --> 17:03.335
And what he was saying is, I'm not scared.

17:03.515 --> 17:06.415
Why should you be scared? Let's defy these bastard.

17:06.485 --> 17:07.615
He's saying,

17:07.995 --> 17:11.635
and, in wartime in Spain, like

17:11.635 --> 17:13.355
that this was actually an effective

17:13.415 --> 17:16.155
and admirable activity in peace time.

17:16.815 --> 17:19.395
It was evidence of, of, of, of derangement.

17:20.295 --> 17:24.595
And from time to time, he, he was obviously,

17:26.065 --> 17:27.345
regarded in that way.

17:28.095 --> 17:29.865
More often, though he was simply depressed.

17:29.865 --> 17:31.825
He was at the, at the downturn of his cycle,

17:31.925 --> 17:35.765
and he would be unable to work, unable

17:35.825 --> 17:37.485
to function, properly.

17:38.045 --> 17:42.895
I need to emphasize that this was not evident

17:43.115 --> 17:44.615
to most of the people who knew him.

17:44.775 --> 17:48.255
I spoke to some of, some retired former,

17:48.255 --> 17:49.575
queen Mary Hospital staff.

17:49.965 --> 17:51.575
They said, yeah, we worked with Dr.

17:51.665 --> 17:53.975
Jolly, wonderful guy. I said, what about the fact that,

17:53.975 --> 17:55.575
you know, he had this mental problem.

17:55.575 --> 17:57.055
They said, you must be thinking of someone else.

17:58.515 --> 18:00.055
We, we never saw any signs of that.

18:00.675 --> 18:03.735
Uh, he was just this rather quiet, reserved, withdrawn,

18:03.735 --> 18:06.775
fellow who, who, who, who got on with the job and went home.

18:07.435 --> 18:09.615
Um, so it,

18:10.525 --> 18:12.975
many people did not observe this.

18:13.235 --> 18:17.135
And, he obviously handled it extraordinarily well.

18:17.255 --> 18:20.135
I have a great admiration for his courage at doing that,

18:20.455 --> 18:21.495
actually, because the medication

18:21.515 --> 18:24.015
for his condition in those days was very poor,

18:24.805 --> 18:26.495
very inadequate, not like it is now.

18:26.495 --> 18:28.135
These days. You can level people out.

18:28.365 --> 18:30.055
Back then, all you could do was sort of

18:30.815 --> 18:31.855
dull them down, really.

18:32.955 --> 18:37.375
Uh, and so he, you know, this would've been a,

18:38.725 --> 18:41.325
a real, a real difficulty in his life.

18:41.545 --> 18:44.205
And he overcame it, I think, heroically,

18:45.875 --> 18:47.975
but it certainly would've counted against him.

18:48.035 --> 18:52.215
Uh, in his civilian career, he saved thousands of lives

18:53.035 --> 18:55.735
in Spain and later in World War II in Spain.

18:55.735 --> 18:58.655
They were, a, a great, many of them were civilians.

18:59.395 --> 19:02.695
Um, Spain was a, a, a total war.

19:02.695 --> 19:05.255
And the, the, the number of civilian casually casualties

19:05.495 --> 19:07.655
exceeded the number of, of, of military ones.

19:07.655 --> 19:10.375
So he operated on little children. He operated on old women.

19:10.955 --> 19:14.535
He operated on everyone who came into his,

19:14.675 --> 19:15.855
to his hospital.

19:17.135 --> 19:19.965
Quite a few, in fact, were, troops from the other side.

19:21.285 --> 19:24.385
So he, he would be operating on a German airman who'd been

19:24.385 --> 19:26.265
trying to bomb it, you know, not very long earlier,

19:26.365 --> 19:27.705
and then had had to bail out and,

19:27.705 --> 19:29.665
and been, been carried in with a broken leg.

19:30.205 --> 19:33.785
He, you know, his, his Christian socialist principles

19:34.545 --> 19:37.345
insisted that he treated everybody who had a chance

19:37.345 --> 19:41.465
of survival, because they were all human.

19:41.465 --> 19:43.305
They were all of equal value in his eyes.

19:44.085 --> 19:46.225
Um, so, so that, that's, you know, that

19:46.245 --> 19:47.425
that's one of his legacies.

19:47.425 --> 19:48.745
Another is the book that he wrote

19:48.995 --> 19:50.305
after the Spanish Civil War,

19:50.305 --> 19:52.585
and right at the outset of World War, world War ii,

19:52.935 --> 19:54.065
it's called Field Surgery.

19:54.205 --> 19:58.345
In Total War. It was a manual of field surgery for the kind

19:58.345 --> 19:59.625
of war that he knew was coming.

20:00.365 --> 20:04.225
And because he knew that, that the surgeons

20:04.225 --> 20:06.545
of his generation had been trained the way he had been

20:06.545 --> 20:09.065
trained in World War I era, military surgery,

20:09.165 --> 20:11.225
and that it was inadequate, inappropriate,

20:11.225 --> 20:13.965
irrelevant, superseded.

20:14.505 --> 20:16.365
So he provided this extraordinary

20:16.365 --> 20:17.405
book, really a very good book.

20:18.475 --> 20:21.245
What, what it was used, it was a bestseller.

20:21.245 --> 20:24.445
It was, it was, used on both sides of the Atlantic

20:24.545 --> 20:27.405
and in fact, right throughout the allied, sector of War.

20:27.945 --> 20:30.725
And what I find extraordinary is that it remained in use

20:31.065 --> 20:33.765
and unsurpassed for 25 years.

20:34.305 --> 20:36.285
It was still in use in the, in the Korean War,

20:36.285 --> 20:38.125
and it was still in use in the Vietnam War

20:38.125 --> 20:39.245
in the late 1960s.

20:39.685 --> 20:43.325
I spoke to a New Zealand surgeon who was in Vietnam,

20:43.385 --> 20:46.965
and he said, of the, the books, the, the, the texts

20:47.005 --> 20:50.535
that he was able to use, Jolly's book was the most useful.

20:51.075 --> 20:52.895
It had been published 25 years earlier.

20:53.235 --> 20:54.655
So that's a considerable legacy.

20:55.635 --> 20:59.375
Uh, and and beyond that, again, I think is the fact that,

20:59.445 --> 21:02.615
that the system that he, that I've described, the system

21:02.615 --> 21:05.975
that he developed, that that emphasized the speed,

21:06.115 --> 21:09.175
the necessity to get patients on your operating theater

21:09.175 --> 21:10.655
quickly,

21:10.875 --> 21:13.255
and that downgraded the status of the surgeon,

21:13.495 --> 21:16.295
upgraded the status of, of others involved in, in

21:16.295 --> 21:18.895
that process, that system is the one

21:18.895 --> 21:20.135
that we now take for granted today.

21:20.135 --> 21:22.255
It's in use in, in a

21:22.255 --> 21:25.895
and e Wards, in former surgery worldwide.

21:26.295 --> 21:28.015
I spoke to, a French surgeon.

21:28.155 --> 21:31.815
He, he's, he's, surgical advisor to, med San Quer,

21:32.595 --> 21:34.175
doctors Without Borders.

21:34.515 --> 21:36.095
He said, absolutely.

21:36.195 --> 21:40.615
We use a, a development of Jolly's principles in our work.

21:41.195 --> 21:43.895
The Red Cross does the same with their,

21:43.895 --> 21:45.255
medical teams overseas.

21:46.685 --> 21:49.435
These guys still work in what is basically the same way,

21:49.855 --> 21:51.475
and he developed it for the first time.

21:51.495 --> 21:52.755
That's quite a legacy, I think.

Faculti AI can make mistakes